Hi.

Thank you for reply, so much. Knowledge is Power
so I'm taking to heart the things you have shared. Maybe I can help someone else after my dilemna is recovered.

Ok, you gave insightful information. But my taker is always wanting to step up. So I realize that needs to change.

"or forgotten in the heat of the moment (or whatever)...that's why keeping it simple = remembering what you want to change."

I think, I want to work on changing my immediate
decision to act as my taker when things do not go as I would like. I will work on something short & simple to help.

"The new motto I used in recovery was "lighten up"" "Have fun, and relax...you've got lots of
time to recover!"

I DON'T want to "lighten up", have fun and relax. I want to come down hard with an iron fist and make him..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Oh I'm sorry I was listening to my taker again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Ok I'm off to a good start. I caught that feeling coming on.

It is hard to have fun and relax when you are reading MB lit. and you know how things should be. Plus you have desires for things to be good again. You want to see what you read about being enacted. So I guess you get more preoccupied with that than having fun and relaxing. As I read your words I was actually beginning to feel less tension.

"Deposit some love units instead and you'll get them back. Or if EVENTUALLY you don't (be patient, the fog takes a while to completely mist away), then you respectfully discuss the issue, and use radical honesty to explain why you think it is so important to have the discussions."

This gives me an idea of where to go from this point. But I feel I need a plan in Plan A. We are still in Plan A. But I have concerns about where to go from here. I am still skeptical about A ending, though WS dosen't seem to have made contact. Also I've verified through cell com.
However, the no contact letter was not sent. He has been away with work, to be honest when he comes back he will physically drained and I don't think that that will be the best time to address no contact letter. So when do I discuss it?
Also I found out that WS has made some contact w/ a female friend (that we both know). At this point I am concerned about any contact with the opposite sex. What should I do?

Seems that right now I need to hold steady at no LBing. Depositing into the Lb as I can. Also working on personal issues/goals. What is left?

Awed18, thank you again. I so appreciate you reaching out to help me and others. Your post has been invaluable to me. I will work harder because I don't want to be right. I do want to be married.

P.S. "Heck, I even got to the point where I could tell H to have a good time (and mean it!) when I knew he was going to see OW! "

Did you ever fear you would lose him?

Hi freetobe,

You are so very very welcome! Truly, it is good to hear that these examples can shine a little light into someone else's darkness...

I've tried to emulate my own "helper" here at MB...the amazing and wonderful JL gave me so much to work with at such a crucial time, so much hope, a different perspective on my H's inexplicable actions/reactions...it was such a horrible time for me. I was so down, depressed and forlorn...I had already had so many losses in the preceding 6 months, this was only the latest (and by far the worst) and I was almost comatose at times. The first counsellor I saw wanted to put me on suicide watch 24/7 for 4-6 weeks. This was her suggestion for what would happen to me immediately after I kicked him out. And she was in no doubt that he needed to be kicked out forever, that we were no-hopers. Period. End of story.

Don't always believe your counsellor!

By the time I saw the second counsellor (took me a while to find one that I thought would be marriage-positive), I was feeling a million times better because of the MB boards. I still cried through the whole first session but I had a PLAN and it was WORKING. I was feeling better and he was infinitesimally not as much of a jerk as he had been just a few weeks earlier.

Of course, H had told me everything you guys have heard (don't love you anymore, need my space to figure out what to do, nothing was ever good between us, etc.). Oh and OW was "my" friend so I had the double betrayal to deal with too.

Some of the differences are that it was "only" 1 A. Mind you, after D-day, I found out it had been going on for 1.25 years, not the few months I'd suspected (in retrospect). And as I mentioned, I had my own little shocks and torments to cope with, such as they had "slept" in our bed several times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Like I saw her almost every day until D-day. With him. In front of me. Because they were "just friends"...right?

We all have our variations on the sad, pathetic theme. But what I can say is that everyone that I've talked to, and based on the vast number of MB threads I've read, the majority of MB practitioners have a lot in common.

My marriage counsellor advocated radical honesty too (expose the A). She advised staying together if at all possible. Getting on with your life but trying to leave it "as if" as much as possible -- normalcy...kids (dogs in our case)...routines, etc.

She explained that what I was expressing (at our first session) was unconditional love for my H. That this was the greatest gift you could give someone. To love them despite what they do to you. To love them for who they are, during a time when they are lost. And she believed that this love would be a beacon in the dark for him, something steady in the whirlwind that was his reality...known here at MB as the "fog".

(BTW: she and JL were right in almost everything they surmised in my situation. And I was right about a lot of it. And dead wrong about some of it.)

Does this committed to the marriage, non-LBing approach work every time? Probably not. But what I can say is that the MC told me she'd never seen such a turnaround in a couple in such a short amount of time.

So if I seem like a strong advocate...I am! My situation seemed hopeless at first. It was less about the A than it was about the marriage. Hold on, you say: isn't it for us all? No, not quite. The twist here was that I had already kicked him out. Twice. At that point the A moved into high gear (including he was starting to reveal it to the light of day with others) precisely because he'd given up...I'd told him our marriage was over, months before I really suspected the A.

That is one reason I believe in these principles so whole-heartedly. And why I did a smash-up job in Plan A. For me (or more accurately, for my H), Plan B was likely going to be the end of our M unless I could reverse all the previous damage by now doing a fantastic Plan A.

Stopping the LBs was the only way to save my M. And prior to that I was "queen" of LBing. I did them all. I think I was abusive. I used to say to him that I felt abusive but "couldn't" stop.

So if I can stop, anyone can. I dumped the anger and started looking at things differently. I treated him with love even though he was doing the worst thing he'd ever done to me. He was treating me worse than ever before in our marriage.

I had faith that my marriage could recover, and I discovered faith in me. I truly believed that if nothing else, I would heal in a healthy way and leave behind unhealthy habits forever.

Rant rant rant...sorry...I try to shorten these stories but then I think I've left out something crucial...

Now: I don't discuss MB principles with H, I use them. And he responds in kind. On several occasions now I've been taking some time to figure out how to POJA a difficult topic, and he shocks me completely by bringing it up HIMSELF.

1. He's recognized that something, that specific thing, is bothering me. Without me saying anything!!!!! Glory be.

2. He's decided to do something about it. Without me saying anything!!!! Just because it bothers me, so he wants to change it. WOW...can you say...miracle? Where was this guy before???

3. He's come up with a plan and wants to discuss it with me...WITH me??? The guy that never used to discuss anything? That thought "compromise" was a dirty word???

Okay...you likely get a sense of why I think this stuff rocks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> It works. It is not manipulation, it really is as simple as the good doctor says it is.

Specifically to your post:

Time is the big thing to remember...give it time. Everyone wants to jump to the end as quickly as possible. (So did I of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). That's why I loved Twyla's advice. She's got a great attitude vis-a-vis her H...she's tough (boundaries) but relaxed too. So I figured I would not go wrong following her advice.

Also: one other tip...have you set goals? Little goals? Reachable goals? This worked so well for me. Sometimes you think you haven't made any progress and then realize you actually have. Little goals do that for you. And give you something to feel good about too.

Make them positive, make them about you, or only marginally about him. Something like: "make him smile 3 times a day". You are doing good if you are doing this (ie. not LBing) and it helps you to focus your energy on him in a positive way, rather than a worrying/negative/working way.

And since I read somewhere that your H is like mine, ie. not a talker, I'd suggest working on your actions more than your words. Working on my actions got me the most amazing guy in the world. Talking? ...well, I'd still be on the boards asking what more could I do!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still skeptical about A ending, though WS doesn&#8217;t seem to have made contact...
However, the no contact letter was not sent... Also I found out that WS has made some contact w/ a female friend (that we both know). At this point I am concerned about any contact with the opposite sex. What should I do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See Star's post on GQ II...play the game! More folks need to join in and this is a good issue because it is really hard.

I think you need to POJA. I'm about to write back to Star because I like her POJA much better than mine. She is really honest about (alx)'s feelings. I was getting there but was dancing around the issue.

All this to say: you need to be honest with your H about the above. N/C is needed to get into recovery. But he has to decide this, you can only let him know how you feel when he does not. So POJA a solution. Gently. Respectfully always. With humour if you can. No anger. No resentment (practice these things, practice the actual phrases, practice or write down everything that is likely to be very difficult to discuss with your H).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has been away with work, to be honest when he comes back he will physically drained and I don't think that that will be the best time to address no contact letter. So when do I discuss it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NEVER discuss something at a bad time. Your instincts will tell you so listen to them. RESIST the urge. Usually that is your taker talking...I've been wrestling with issue X for so long, it's about time we clear the air!

But if that is not the best time to discuss it, don't.

As to when is good. I would choose a time carefully and perhaps ask him. Note: only ever ask a question if you can respect his answer of NO.

Oh yeah, I wanted to tell you this too. Early days (have you talked much about the A yet?), he was very defensive. I needed to tell him several times that it was more important that I hear the truth than he avoided hurting me. That was part of it.

Part of it is that they (WS) feel you are throwing humiliation in their face. The further away from the fog they get, the worse this reaction is too. Why would you keep bringing it up over and over again, something embarrassing, something humiliating...why won't you just let it go???

This is another great way to practice POJA...finding way to get across your point (need to understand A, need to resolve details, etc.) while validating their feelings. I thanked him every time we had a serious discussion. and as you may have read, we followed with SF...he was happy, I was happy!

If you haven't discussed A detail and plan to (HEED the warning re: too much detail hampering recovery), a good piece to give him to read is the piece about the A being like a puzzle. I did not give much to my H because he hates reading this stuff so it would be counter-productive to give him much. But he read and really absorbed the puzzle analogy. And felt less defensive when I raised the issue after that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seems that right now I need to hold steady at no LBing. Depositing into the Lb as I can. Also working on personal issues/goals. What is left? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey...isn't that enough! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Make your list of goals and I think that might really appeal to the planner in you. I get the sense that you might be a bit of an organizer like me. I took to this battle like a duck to water. Spoke in military terms too! The goal list helps you chart progress and keep on moving forward personally (since you can't do a darn thing about his recovery pace).

You sound like you are doing really well. If you have any questions, let me know. I don't usually check in this often but lately I've wanted to see what a few of you folks have been up to. Then I get ensnared by POJA games. Then I read about yet another new twist that gets me thinking...the boards are great for everything except getting my real work done!

awed

P.S. I've read a lot of your posts and I think you've already helped folks! But it is also good to work on your own M first and foremost, and try to keep on learning and applying. Refining based on your personal situation. And your knowledge of your H.

But posting to others can help you gain insights into your own situation.

Now I agree with you that it is good to refrain from "telling" someone else what to do...your own experience when you are still on the rollercoaster may not be the best guide. For example, another poster starting heaving advice all around her as her situation improved then got socked when she finally went into true recovery. Some of her advice to others was pretty...strident...and in my opinion, downright ill-advised on a couple of occasions.

But I haven't found you to be that way? Why are you feeling this way right now? Do you feel you've led someone else astray?

P.P.S. I never really feared I would lose him to OW. Perhaps that gave me the jump on other BS -- I knew the real challenge was to get him to recommit to the marriage, not to get him away from OW. Or better put, to get him away from OW but so that he COULD make a clear decision about whether or not to recommit to the marriage.

So many people seem consumed with winning the little battle (OW) but lose the war because they did it through coercion, guilt, etc. That's another key to no LBing...make it the marriage of your dreams AND his.

Besides...it had been a long time since I had seduced a man... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I found it a lot of fun...bizarre fun, but fun nonetheless...try to find humour wherever you can, laugh at things that are painful, things you never thought you'd laugh at...my coping methods are almost endless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed18,
Hi. tahnk for post. Gave me some calrity and encouragment.

Sound Familiar?

Warning: This is Sooooo long.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hey what happened to my warning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I needed every bit of it. This post is short. I'm preparing to see honeyguy and absorbing info.

Will give more response in next post.

Thanks again.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sorry I'm so late replying. I tried to several times yesterday and each time my computer was doing something of its own.

Thank you again for the reply. It encouraged me and gave me insight more tahn I can say.

Before I go any further you asked why I had a concern about giving my opinion to other posters. Well I replied to someone and I thought that maybe I was too overbearing. Then I was having negative feelings about my own R so I didn't want to mislead anyone.

Anyway I posted my concern and an apology to them and they told me I wasn't overbearing. As a matter of fact they weren't upset either. So I was glad about that.

About your post. It cleared up some thinking I previously had about us. Though I knew I wanted to save this relationship, it had been difficult knowing how to hold on to it. Or why I was fighting for it if the man I loved was continuing to betray me. Or why I was going after something that was causing me a great deal of pain.

At times I was felt like a LOSER about the choices I made. I mean because really most people tell you, "hey if he is cheating he doesn't want you. Leave him and never look back."

I had the Marriagebuilders info but I still needed to understand what I was doing. In all of this I realized that I was trying to get him to recommitt to this R/M.

"Or better put, to get him away from OW but so that he COULD make a clear decision about whether or not to recommit to the marriage. "

This point is so important because I think people feel many times think their mission is to get the mate to stop cheating or to get their mate to not breakup the family. When you think of it this way you see only the harm it is causing and you blame the homewreckers (OW/OM). But actually you are trying to get your WS to be apart again of your life. To be your whole hearted lover. To be your wholehearted friend.

Prior to this happening our R needed some imporvements anyway. So even if OW wasn't in the picture I knew we had work to do. The A sort of brought evrything to the forefront.

Awed18 there were many more things that I wanted to comment on. But I'm going to have to come back to post.

Here is the Plan I've decided to go with. I've shared it with Starf*sh also:

>Before I do anything, get my mind ready to hear and deal with him.

>Continue depositing love units as possible-NO LBing. Even though lately he has been fussy. OOOhhh annoying. Wants me to do everything likes he wants. Then when I ask him to it the way he wants he says no.

>Try to approach him about where he stands regarding A.

>Address any concerns about it or if any contact has occured.

>Simplify PORH and share it, then discuss things I've discovered.

>I should inqure as well about Undivided atten.

>Want to request NC be sent, but I'm still shaky on this one.

Then have sessions after sessions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I really want to comment so more becasue you gave me so much more insight, but I have to leave for now.

Awed18,
Iused your quote about recommitting to the marriage. this is so invaluable to me. So I hope you will not be upset. I gave you credit for it.

ALso i realized that WS and I are not in recovery. However that is still my plan above (I did include POJA). Also we had a heart to heart about the A andother things. I realize that I still need to deposit love units and approach in a casual, attentive manner. And a biggie for me. I am making small steps everyday as I can to live the POJA and PORH. These 2 require me to do more things right now. Can't decide to do what I want anymore. Man! Sort of restrictive. I plan to do my best to "walk" in these concepts.

If we don't post to each other again before holidays, I'm wishing you a Merry one.

Hi there,

Please feel free to use any quote of mine, any time, with anyone. I like your upbeat posts and think that most of the time you are clear that you too are in the process of learning. (Aren't we all!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This point is so important because I think people feel many times think their mission is to get the mate to stop cheating or to get their mate to not breakup the family. When you think of it this way you see only the harm it is causing and you blame the homewreckers (OW/OM). But actually you are trying to get your WS to be apart again of your life. To be your whole hearted lover. To be your wholehearted friend.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...to have a NEW marriage! As my counsellor said, an affair is really a wake-up call and she went on to say (as many other experts also say): affairs are not what kill marriages, it is the conditions that existed in the marriage prior to the affair, if they remain unaddressed post-affair.

I don't know if you saw the reply I sent to lbc (ie. the ruffling of his hair and telling him it's easy to do nice things for him) but I would encourage you to do those kinds of things as well...surprise your H. Have fun and change things up between you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Intrigue him, make him curious, keep him interested.

And remember that it may take him a while to respond...to show you any interest...basically there is a lot of suspicion on the part of the WS to accept that there really CAN be a new marriage between you, to accept that the changes in you are for real. They may well continue in their crappy behaviour, or be wishy-washy or even get nastier.

Remember: as they get closer to recommitting to your marriage and/or as they recommit...they start to truly face what they've done. What they've done to someone they love. It is a terrible thing to have to face.

Some might say boo-hoo...it's nothing compared to what the BS had to face. In some ways, that's true. The BS was devastated by what was done to them. But...imagine that you killed a child, ran over them with a car. Of course the pain the parents feel would be devastating and would not compare with what you felt. But don't you think you'd be haunted for the rest of your life by what you did?

A bit of an extreme analogy yet I think it demonstrates that people on both sides of a tragedy can be deeply impacted but in different ways, and it also captures the essence of the internal emotions that a WS feels...they have to live with their self-knowledge forever, despite how much they might wish to change the past and make different choices without such a devastating result. Sadly: some WS will cope through denial so let's just keep on hoping your H is not one of those!

Be patient...keep up your plan. Let your H struggle through his own emotions, choices, decisions, etc. as he comes to grips with what he's done and what he chooses to do in the future.

Be loving and supportive. Set your boundaries. Have fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you haven't already, go read Star's post here (near the bottom of the page): inspirational story from Star

Read how she got through to her H by the changes in her behaviour alone. This approach really can work. And the bonus is that YOU will be happy. Regardless of what your H decides to do with the rest of his life.

So what do you have to lose?

Have a very happy festive season yourself and thank you for your good wishes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...I hope you have lots of fun activities planned, that you find joy in each and every day, and peace in your heart...awed

P.S. I just found 2 other threads that echo what I mentioned above...I think they would be good reading for you. Tell me what you think...

repentent WS perspective

...and I hope this second one does not offend you...if it does, my strong suggestion would be please don't respond on the thread...it's good for WS to openly state their feelings but it can be really hard for a BS to read this, especially when you are still getting hurt by your WS. The reason I'm sending you there is because their perspective might give you insight into some of your H's feelings...prepare you for some of his resentment...

You don't need to agree with your H...but you need to understand (validate) his feelings. do you understand that important difference? This can be a very big stumbling block for a BS...you DON'T have to agree but you DO have to listen and validate...for example, you DON'T have to agree that OW is terrific but you DO have to understand that he believes it at this moment in time...by belittling her, you are belittling him (in his mind)...

I'm not saying you are doing any of this! Just want to point out yet another pitfall that you can avoid as he starts to come out of the fog, out of withdrawal. You validating his feelings will seriously help your marriage...

a different WS perspective

<small>[ December 20, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Morning awed 18

I've posted this to you and Starf*sh.
I have a couple questions for you.

1. Do you know where I can find the article about affairs being like puzzles?

I read the post you directed me to all 3 were helpful.
In Particular, Star's and the things she said about getting on with her life. Which brings me to m,y next question.

2. WS and I are doing good. However sometimes he is a litlle fussy and belittling sometimes. I think that some of the things that were a problem for us before the A are coming up again (communication and a show of respect). I would like for communication to be better with us and I'd like him to show more respect or interest in me.

I want to dicuss POJA and PORH with him. I did lightly the other day. We have time to be together for now. Because his work schedule is very busy and our time together will be limited after the holidays. Is it best to discuss them fully with him now? Also the 180 list by Michelle Weiner Davis. I've been thinking about using some of her tactics to try to get WS more interested in me again. I started using some small steps on it and noticed that with just those small changes he started changing (in a good way)? Your thoughts? Thank you.

Thank you Starf*sh and awed18 for the puzzle info.

I want you opinion about using the 180 list.

Yes, my WS does have problems with I love yous. He will allow you to tell him all day. He won't necessarily reply.

How do you feel about using the Policy of Radical Honety and Joint Agreement with this list. Some items may not apply. But others can be used. Just want your opinion. Thank you.

Sorry -- I thought I had replied to you yesterday!

When I said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know if you saw the reply I sent to lbc (ie. the ruffling of his hair and telling him it's easy to do nice things for him) but I would encourage you to do those kinds of things as well...surprise your H. Have fun and change things up between you. Intrigue him, make him curious, keep him interested.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...that's pretty much what I was referring to -- using the 180 list or more accurately, applying behaviours that are 180 from your previous "normal".

Personally, I don't think you should do things just to get his attention but instead do things that you can permanently make a part of your new relationship. This approach still fits in with RH (although you are not telling him you are doing this!) and I don't think you need to POJA it...just concentrate on the things that you know or suspect fit his ENs.

So using the above as an example, if you are not normally physically affectionate and it meets a need of his, then do so. If you normally call many times a day, then don't do so (he's likely to consider it an Annoying Habit right now). But if he likes to hear from you and you normally are too busy to pay him attention, now's the time to change your priorities.

Does this explain it a bit better?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...my WS does have problems with I love yous. He will allow you to tell him all day. He won't necessarily reply.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he wants to hear it, tell him! I wouldn't expect a change in his behaviour at this point in time but certainly if you want to hear "I love you" more often, that is something you should raise with him in the future.

BUT in the meantime...positively reinforce anything you like. That is how I would suggest leading to POJA and a good recovery (have FUN). SHOW him what works for you. For example, thank him for telling you he loves you: "It means so much to me when you tell me you love me. I know you are a man of few words, so it sends a thrill down my spine every time you share your love with me."

Find a way to honestly tell him what works for you and what does not. Tell him each and every time too. First off, it changes your interpersonal dynamics to positive...he wants to be with someone who loves being with him. Simple isn't it?

Secondly, it leads to POJA discussion through concrete actions. I really think men DO understand better if we show them what we are expecting. Shed some light on the confusion they seem to universally feel about what we really want from them. SHOW not TELL.

So...it is all honest. But it involves less talking. And you probably have more important things to talk about right now anyway! Since you are trying to keep your relationship talks to a minimum, anything you can do non-verbally towards your new marriage will be worthwhile.

Here are my 2 cents regarding POJA itself...I did not get my H to "agree" to do it, we simply started doing it and the explanation came later...I think you can do this too since time is short...my own feeling is that if you overwhelm him at this point, it will not speed along recovery (although if he asks, have stuff available for him to read). But otherwise, start to POJA and teach him HOW through your actions...then when you explain it, he already sees the benefits. He will intuitively feel "heard" and "validated" = less defensive.

That is how I POJA'd my H's initial resistance to the N/C letter. It was slow going though...the letter was only sent after 3 weeks. But at that point, he was enthusiastic about sending it, rather than grudging. I'd much rather enthusiasm than grudging but that's me...others obviously feel the N/C letter is more important than the level of cooperation from WS.

ciao...awed

awed18
Hi. I sent you an email also. I was rereading this post and wanted to ask a question?

I was referring to this:
(Quote from awed 18 in italics)
"BUT in the meantime...positively reinforce anything you like. That is how I would suggest leading to POJA and a good recovery (have FUN). SHOW him what works for you."

SO are you saying that instead of giving him a 20-50 minute lecture about MB concepts, it would be better to casually go along and as things happen give him positive feedback?

Hi freetobe,

I am NOT a marriage coach, with formal training and practical experience in a variety of possibilities. What I have is personal experience and a lot of reading under my belt.

That said, in my opinion, yes, I think this is the best way to go. There are positives and negatives associated with many options you read about here at MB: the advantage to this particular approach is that the change is DEMONSTRATED not talked about. If you have a spouse who is leery of discussion, leery of the changes you've made to yourself, or having problems re-committing to the relationship...then it makes sense to SHOW rather TALK about new beginnings. Showing will reinforce the talking you do inevitably will do later.

Because I am in no way suggesting that you do not talk, it's just that in the early days of recovery (or withdrawal or ending of the A), I think you want to be very careful about LBing. If you have spent a lot of effort getting AO and DJs under control, then the much smaller LB of annoying habit needs to be considered.

A lot of Hs find R talks annoying. Of course, you NEED to discuss issues and boundaries and details of A, etc. etc. as part of healing. But you also have a lot of TIME to do this. And typically it takes TIME to come out of the fog, realize what you were throwing away and really commit to the M.

So during that time, I suspect R talks do fall under the LB of AH. That is why I suggest DOING rather than TALKING if possible, and perhaps even scheduling the R talks.

On a subtler level, DOING is also less stressful. DOING involves fun. Fun is what you want to have. (Appealing option to the "fun" the WS was having with someone else before.) After all, the message you are trying to get across to the WS is not "you are in for a lifetime of drudgery and penitence with me"...is it? Isn't it rather "we are together again and being a couple is fantastic!" which you hope will lead to "OMG, I can't believe I have taken you for granted all this time, I can't believe I almost threw this all away, I will NEVER lose sight of this again".

You -- the BS -- cannot explain this conclusion to your WS!!! Your WS must come to this realization on their own. (Some never do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

Basically, having fun together is more appealing than participating in the "marriage 101 refresher course". I deliver training courses and I can categorically state that learning through FUN is even more important for adults (stressed adults which is the norm these days) than it is for children. First you capture people's interest and then they listen to what you have to say.

I have walked into rooms and had to deliver training to downright hostile people, as well as people bored to tears...people who are yawning, staring out the window, or openly hostile. The material itself is heavy and serious. So I tell jokes, I respond to hostility with humour...I break the ice and win them over using every ounce of charm I can muster, every technique in the book. Why? Because I want them to like me??? No -- because THEN they stand a chance of actually learning, because they'll be interested in what I have to say.

And that is also why I make sure that when I'm doing the delivery of the material, that I make it FUN...throw in lighthearted comments/jokes wherever I can...about the dullness of the material, the length of time between breaks, the drawbacks of the hotel accommodations, how their boss/co-workers don't appreciate the work they do...etc. I have FUN in my voice and FUN in my head and LAUGH a lot. It's worked amazingly well for me...I get lots of praise from other trainers for this approach -- they see the results.

Does this help?

awed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SO are you saying that instead of giving him a 20-50 minute lecture about MB concepts, it would be better to casually go along and as things happen give him positive feedback?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but when I saw my answer posted, I re-read your question and am adding this: I don't know what you mean about "casually" going along...of course, you wouldn't be casual about further contact for example. Any breach of your boundaries would need to be addressed, calmly and using your "feeling" words.

If you go to the thread I mentioned earlier, the practice POJA thread that Star started, you'll see all the negotiation tips and techniques she spells out. Of course, if necessary (I've had a couple of crisis times myself), you need to talk about something RIGHT AWAY. But the rest of the time, you ask first and graciously accept if he is not interested in talking at that time (set a time he IS willing to talk).

The general approach I am advocating is rather than lecturing your WS and TEACHING them how to be married, you show them instead. You give them positive feedback. You lead by example...

awed18 I saw the thread early on when Star first got it started. I hadn't been back since then. I know that you are NOT a marriage coach. However you've helped me a lot and your experience is first hand so I'm more confident in taking stock in the pointers that you've given me.

Sorry for the seperation. It was an error.

I understand what you mean about having fun. However I guess when I have triggers or flash backs about what he's done I feel that I need to be more serious. That I have to communicate where I am coming from.

But I guess it is better to be more like fun. Which was what he was having with OW. SO maybe having fun is better.
awed18 will look at thread again. Merry Christmas.

Hi. How have you been? How was your holiday?

As for myself things have really been going nicely. I am grateful. When I sit down and weigh things I realize that they definitely aren't bad even when I feel negative.

Many things that you have said ring in my mind. Things about whether I want to be right or married. Things about remembering my past inconsiderate acts toward him (fuel to keep trying). This one is a biggy for me. Remembering to have fun. I was raised very strict and I have taken that into most of my life, learning to have fun has been a toughy for me.

So I remind myself that it is ok to have fun. Allowing WS to be my buddy. Have been trying to show him a different me. By the same token WS is showing me some nice sides of him.

At times I want to hold back enjoying our R too much because of fear of going through something bad again makes me a little reluctant. Yet I realize that things are changing (in a positive light) between us and we have an oppurtunity now to work on issues that were a problem even before the A. But I am doing more acting and showing, less talking about it now.

Also trying harder to let go of past hurts and anger, while trying to establish new behaviors.
Taking small steps to better establish honesty between us and considering him more before I make independent decisions.

It may have appeared that what you've shared was falling on deaf ears earlier this week, but I really have learned a lot. Thank you. I appreciate everything you have shared with me.

Howdy! Glad to hear your holiday was a good one...it was for me as well but altogether too short as always. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It may have appeared that what you've shared was falling on deaf ears earlier this week </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are a great person to correspond with because it is obvious that you think about what is said to you, and what you read elsewhere. Whether or not you agree or follow a different path is completely up to you. But you are clearly interested in learning and making positive changes in yourself...I can't help but think that improves your chances of marital success too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I think everything you've written about between you and your H sounds absolutely fantastic!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am thrilled to hear things are going well -- keep up the good work!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At times I want to hold back enjoying our R too much because of fear of going through something bad again makes me a little reluctant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know exactly what you mean -- I think I've mentioned this before...fear. In all the reading I've done, it seems there is a real shift in "power". During the A, immediately following the A...it appears as though the WS has the upper hand because the BS is working so hard to recover the marriage. And then eventually, as the fog clears, the WS recommits and has a major stake in making the marriage work.

At that point, the "power" shifts to the BS...the crisis is over, the marriage seems to be improving, your ENs are getting met...that's when I think you come smack dab against yourself...and your FEAR.

From my reading it appears that you (the BS) become your own (ie. your marriage's) worst enemy. I told my H, almost from day one of recovery, that this is what I feared most. I said I was worried that I would decide to give up. That I would get tired. That I would decide I wasn't ever going to be able to trust him again and it wasn't worth it.

I asked him to help me through this fear. To make a commitment to push me every time I withdrew from him...to not allow me to withdraw. To engage me, to talk through whatever the issue was (likely a trigger, likely a fear, likely something directly to do with the A).

I am not suggesting this approach would work for you -- I used it for my relationship because it represented a 180 from what had happened between us in the past. I would withdraw and he (being a MAN) would think that that meant everything was fine between us. As long as I was not yelling, he assumed I was okay. (I wasn't at all of course...)

I am merely telling you what I decided to do when I feared that I would end the relationship because of FEAR. That I took action because I did not want FEAR to run my life...and so I asked my H to help me overcome my fear, made this a part of recovery.

It's early days yet for us (ask me in 2 years! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but so far, it is working extremely well. I can think about the details of the A without really feeling a whole lot of anything any more. It is still hard to see OW (N/C is not an option because he's a public figure and she's a member of the public)...she still represents a big trigger for me and I don't know whether or not I'll ever get over that...but I have no FEAR of what he's doing or thinking about her...just that she reminds me of the worst time of my life and I'd rather not ever see her again.

So here's a suggestion for you...write down what exactly you fear might happen in future. And write down what you think the consequences would be if you hold back right now, in your marriage. Then write down what you think would happen if you let go of the fear and got hurt again, how you would handle it.

You are strong you know? Do you know it? You are a SURVIVOR! You have amazing endurance.

So face your fear full on and see what is the worst you can imagine. Imagine how you would deal with it. How you would employ the lessons you've learned about yourself and your marriage and conflict resolution.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I suspect you'll find it is not as bad as you think. And writing it all down, facing it, is incredibly empowering.

Of course, it is up to you what you decide at that point. Lots of people like to hold back a piece of themselves...they will never be comfortable with vulnerability. If you've read any of my self-reflective posts you know that I had to face my vulnerability (childhood, alcoholic parent) -- a vulnerability I had never even realized was there! -- in order to deal with my anger towards my H.

It will be a life-long battle I suspect. But I've already taken such great strides that I am quite comfortable now with the knowledge that I may well be hurt again...in fact, I KNOW that I will be hurt again, it's just that it could be by someone other than my H, someone else I care about.

But...I also know I can survive. I have learned such coping techniques that I feel strong and empowered. And I am at peace with the knowledge that the benefits of vulnerability outweigh the advantages of holding back. For ME. I decided that for ME. Others obviously make quite different decisions.

You'll have to decide for yourself what your boundaries are...

But no matter what, keep on having fun and think about recovery as an adventure...something to explore and learn and create...WOW...good times ahead in 2004!

Have a happy new year...awed

Hi awed18
(quotes for awed18 in italics)

"Not at all! You are a great person to correspond with because it is obvious that you think about what is said to you, and what you read elsewhere. "

Thank you. You are also great to correspond with. Your post are long but everything in them are so helpful and you are so open to sharing. Thank You thank you.

Before I get to what I want to post. You asked some time agao if I was a planner and I forgot to answer your question. I am. Planning was so difficult for me for the first part of my life. So i've read a lot and I've tried to take on knowledge about planning more. I've kind of learned to like it like a hobby almost.

Well to the meat of my reply. I thought about how you asked you H to help you not give up. As sual I so related to taht becasue a few times I've considered just wlking away. I just felt it ould be so much easier. At the same time it almost seemed therapeutic.

That might sound strange. But, well it gave me the feeling of kind of letting a bag of balloons go. When I thought about it for that moment it was like I let all of the pressure of the M and trying to make so many changes release from my shoulders.

Doing this helped me know that maybe I wasn't detaching as much as I thought I was. So now I've begun to try to work on detaching more often. Detaching from the fear and other emotions that take me over at times.

I did the exercise of writing down what I was feeling. Then imaging how it would be if I held back. I realized that I wanted to hold back because I wantd to like ration out affection. I felt that maybe if I didn't give out too much, I wouldn't get hurt as easily.

At this point I realized it wouldn't be best to do this because it wouldn't build anything in my M. It ould only push WS away. Also lately he's been so affectionate it would be too hard to do it anway. he would know I was holding back and I would be doing it at the expense of acting deceptively. Well, this doesn't fit in the Policy of Radcal Honesty. So I accepted that it wouldn't be a benefit to either of us to act this way.

I imagined how it would be if he hurt me again. You know, when I thought about all of the hurt of before and the emotions of it all, it didn't even have the same effect of hurt on me. It almost seemed benign. I know if something happened again I would feel hurt, disappointment but I wouldn't feel the so devastating feeling I felt before. I think I've gotten stronger. Thank you again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi freetobe,

I just posted to your thread on JFO and thought I'd pop by here and ask how you are doing? I must apologize...I did not check my yahoo account over the holidays and so did not get your e-mail until this week. Of course, I've been writing a long response to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> which is why I have not yet sent it!

I am guessing things are going well by what you've posted to others.

BTW: I have to say again, how impressed I am by your responses to others. You are offering such terrific suggestions about control issues and taking a positive attitude in general...it is refreshing to read.

Anyhow, I'll finish my e-mail response and send it off soon...I did have some specific suggestions for you...I should mention that I was glad to see you express your negatives...I think sometimes the only thing you CAN do is to get them off your chest. Which enables you to then carry on giving, smiling, loving and relaxing...

Take it easy (or should I say run faster <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and keep up the good work! awed