Hi all:

I've been reading and re-reading info on Plan A and am still not sure if I understand it correctly. Please, let me know what you think.

Basically, WS is having an EA on the internet and is not willing to give it up. Have been separated for a week now (not physically though, she is staying w/me and is looking for an apartment).

Here is what I am doing. I think I am doing Plan A, but I am not sure.

- ignoring the fact that she is having an EA
- actively helping her in every way possible: help her find an apartment and a job to be able to afford living on her own
- following the list of 34 things to do
- another list posted by TOOMuchCoffeeMan (let me know if you do not know what I am referring to)
- being happy, supportive, understanding, trying to fulfill her emotional needs
- not bringing up any relationship problems, not talking about future and possible reconciliation
- supporting her idea of separation by saying that yes both of us need a break to figure ourselves out

The idea is to be the best I can and help her in any way I can so that she would choose me over him.

Is this Plan A? Am I on the right track?

Like I said she is still in the house (we are roommates only. nothing intimate or anything of that nature), but will probably be moving out soon. Should I continue doing what I have been doing when she is out? Should I maintain contact? Should I switch to Plan B?

Assap,
How come she is moving out?
DO you want her to?
DO you have kids?
How long have you been in Plan A?

Harley suggest not moving out unless physical violence or verbal violence is taking place.

This is my opinion. So accept or reject as you would like.

Thing to remember that Plan A is negotiations for her to stop seeing other man (OM).

With that being said, you are right to be supportive. However, if you don't want her to move, don't help her find somewhere else to stay.

Excerpt from," What is Plan A and Plan B?"

"In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. "

And Plan B is seperating. Reason being is that if you seperatehte risk is great that your marriage may have a hard time getting back on track. Also you may be able to monitor what is happenning with the affair and also intercept what contact with other man.

By doing this, I mean telling her that you want to save your marriage and you are not supportive of a move. SIDE Note:"Now this doesn't mean she will listen." Then trying to filling ENs. Also spend time with her as she will allow. Even if she tries to treat you like a roommate. You aren't a roommate. You are her husband. Note: Realizing she will make it hard on you.

You are in Plan A which is an attempt to stop the affair (A) through negotiation. Also make the pot (you) sweeter as much as you can for her to look toward as an alternative. As another poster put it to me, you want her to recommitt to your marriage. There is the possibility that she will not. But if she leaves you will give her something to look back at and miss. Find excuses for her not to leave. If she so wants to be independent let her independently find somewhere to stay. If the 2 of you can't afford it, do not dish out funds to aid her. SO take a stand about the move, without being disrespectful, argumentative, or rude. Tell her what you hope to do.

Assap,
this site is great there are posters out here willing to share. So don't just take my opinion.

Also the statement about recommitting to the marriage was given to me by awed18. She has a thread on here. She may be able to help you also. Is a Dynomite poster. You will learn for yourself there are many great posters.

And I wanted to include another great response about the other items you mentioned.

One more thing about seperation.
You mentioned this:

"- supporting her idea of separation by saying that yes both of us need a break to figure ourselves out"

Again my opinion. Open to accept or reject.
It may seeem that seperating is best for you to find yourselves out. But I have found myself that this type of line or talk may stem from feeling inadequate to deal with the present situation as well as other personal concerns. It may seem to make sense. If an affair wasn't a problem it probably would.

However when you seperate, your intent may be to get yourself together. However wayward spouse is going through the addiction of an affair. So she will be vulnerable. During this time the consolation of the other man is more likely to be what comes of this "figure yourself out" period for the wayward spouse. To be honest even for you. Because you may feel hurt, you are vulnerable and may seek the attention of another. It happened to me. Doesn't mean it will to you. But just a thought.

"- ignoring the fact that she is having an EA"

Here is somehting that may save you some time and make your Plan A more productive.

You aren't really ignoring that she is having an affair. But you are making a conscious effort not to bring it up. It is like during Plan A you want to make it good. Approaching her about contact with the other man may make her defensive.

On the other hand, you want to be proactive. So you have to pick and choose yur battles. Notice oppurtuniteis to share and capitalize on them.

If you decide to tell your wife you want her to stay the races is on. I don't literally mean a race. But I mean that the time begins where it is best to decide a course of action (a plan) then go with it.

So you want to have your eyes and ears open. Watch but be careful of how you handle what you see and learn.

Being aware of what is going on and snooping also. Being patient. Review the Policy of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty. Try as best you can to understand these and ask her about agreeing with you. Side Note: As it pertains to Plan A, and the Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply. If you decide to take these actions she doesn't have to agree with you.

Assap, I wish you the best.

thanks a million to both of you. i've posted that same question under General Questions and got some posts that said I was doing all the wrong things and that i needed a lot of help.

see, the affair is not really the problem. i have not been fulfilling her emotional needs thus she found somebody on the internet to get just that. then it got more serious and she is planning on going to london to meet him (we are in AK).

i've talked to her about it several times. In a rude angry way in the begginning and in a nice way just a couple of days ago. nothing seems to be working, she is flat out refusing to stop talking to him.

she also says she does not think she is "in love w/me anymore". I know that that is a direct effect of him making her feel good, but still.

she is also young and has a lot of growing up to do. she does not believe we can reconcile anymore and wants a break.

All i am trying to do at this point is to become a better man and to make sure she sees it. two nights ago I told her I'd drive her around to find an apartment. I arranged for a babysitter and we drove around looking for a place for her. then i said i was hungry and wanted to eat. she said she was hungry too. we had a wonderful night, it felt like we were reconnecting. she said "we are supposed to be separating, but you are hitting on me and i like it." later on that night she said "i like you as a friend when there is no "intimate" tension". i know she did not mean intimate as in intimate. i am not sure how to explain the way she meant it but i hope you will understand.

no, i cannot ignore the EA she is having. it still hurts like hell and comes into my head all the time. but i kill it in, by telling myself "thinking about it will just make you angry/upset/etc. and will not help your relationship. you need a clear head right now". I quit spying on her a couple of days ago and am actually feeling better. Not knowing is better than knowing everything, reading their conversations, seeing snapshots of the webcam, etc. she will tell me when it's over. i don't need to monitor her anymore, it hurts too much.

i am just trying to win her back over that computer screen she fell in love with by being everything Dr. Harley suggests.

I hope this works. The only thing I am afraid of is that she will say "i did not like him as a husband, but I love him as a friend, so we'll just be good friends forever".

I do not want her to move out but I do not think there is a way to avoid. I do not want her to move out because I love her to death, I know we've had a good relationship (we had problems just like everybody else, but...), and I know she loves me to. I do not want her to move out because our 17 months old baby needs her. I do not want her to move out because I am 100% sure we can work through the problems and have an everlasting happy relationship (when she decides to work on it also). I do not want her to move out because once she does it will be much harder for me to meet her ENs (we still see each other every night when I come home, spend time talking, etc. we are very good close very happy with each other friends-roommates at this point).

THIS SITE IS GREAT. I LOVE IT. I HAD TWO DAYS OF MISERY BEFORE I STARTED POKING AROUND ON THE INTERNET AND LOOKING FOR "OTHERS IN SIMILAR SITUATION" AND SOOTHING INFORMATION. I AM FEELING MUCH BETTER ABOUT MYSELF NOW THAT I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. sometimes i think "am i heartless? it took me only two days to flip and to get my emotions somewhat together and to try and get on w/my life". don't know what else to say.

THANKS A MILLION TO ALL THE PEOPLE ON THIS SITE

Assap,
Hi. We (posters) are here to help as we can. It is my pleasure to give any information that I can.

I have a few question.
Have you had a chance to sit down and read the marriagebuilders material?
I'm asking because some issues or concerns will be made clear as you read.

Has she moved out?

Harley suggest not moving out unless physical violence or verbal violence is taking place.The suggestion to not move out is for the betrayed spouse (assap6) not the wayard spouse.

Here is what I am doing. I think I am doing Plan A, but I am not sure.
- ignoring the fact that she is having an EA
Not part of Plan A.

- actively helping her in every way possible: help her find an apartment and a job to be able to afford living on her own\
Not part of Plan A.

- following the list of 34 things to do
Not part of PLan A. What is it?

- another list posted by TOOMuchCoffeeMan (let me know if you do not know what I am referring to)
- being happy, supportive, understanding, trying to fulfill her emotional needs
This is PLan A.

- not bringing up any relationship problems, not talking about future and possible reconciliation
Sort of Plan A but it is more how it is done.

- supporting her idea of separation by saying that yes both of us need a break to figure ourselves out
Completely against Plan A.

Do not discuss separation or divorce. If it comes up just reply that you do not want it.
IF it comes to the point that she is actually moving you (Not just saying she is going to do it) then you smile and tell her you will help her move if she would like. Again, you don't have to say you are happy or it's something you agree to.

Read the links below and get "Surviving An Affair" by Willard Harley.

Assap6

**I quoted this line ealier which was an error.**

(in italics)
"And I wanted to include another great response about the other items you mentioned."

**I actually got 2 sentences mixed together. I am not calling my repsonses great. Again my error. Please excuse my mistake.******

here is the list i was referring to:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

the way i read it i am not supposed to try and talk her into staying especially after she has already decided to move out and is doing everything possible to do just that.

here is a link to something else TMCM posted
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=012269#000007

in that post he says that if your W tells you the marriage is over and she wants to move out you are supposed to say "Honey, I want our marriage to work. But you’re right, it’s not working. I’ll help you move out." A while ago I told her "Honey I want our marriage to work and I think we can make it work, but you are right we need some time along to sort things out. I'll help you as much as I can with finding a job, an apartment and whatever else you need".

Thoughts?

here is a link to something else TMCM posted
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=012269#000007
in that post he says that if your W tells you the marriage is over and she wants to move out you are supposed to say "Honey, I want our marriage to work. But you’re right, it’s not working. I’ll help you move out." A while ago I told her "Honey I want our marriage to work and I think we can make it work, but you are right we need some time along to sort things out. I'll help you as much as I can with finding a job, an apartment and whatever else you need".
Thoughts?
If she says she wants to move out and you don‘t have to fight with her. If she does actually start to do something about, then yes you can help her.

But you don’t have to tell her, “but you are right we need some time along to sort things out. “. Also, you don’t have to help her with everything. Help her moving is enough.

You need to get “Surviving An Affair“ by Willard Harley instead of trying to “wing it” by reading a few posts. Also, read the links below.

Assap6,
I read the link that you provided. According to TMCM this is his opinion as I know of because I haven't seen it posted by Dr Harley on this site. However posters sometimes add info that may have come from "Survivng an Affair". Perhaps this is where this post came from.

During Plan A you are trying not to do anything that will hold you in a negative light. Anything such as Love busting. Using manipulation, disrespectful judgements, annoying hatits and such. If you are using these tactics to talk to your wife about staying (that is if she isn't calling your bluff), then it would not be beneficial for your Plan A. And if she is actually doing everything in her power to move then perhaps this is best.

From TMCM's reply I'm not sure that his reply was an across the board response. So to know for yourself you will have to read up on material and make an informed decision that you can live with.

Assap6

Here is a link to TOO MUCH COFFEE MAN. He may be out here on the board. If you would like ot ask him about being supportive of move post here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000016#000002

Some of the stuff I have posted is from Dr Harley's book 'Surviving An Affair' and the rest from other authors such as Michelle Weiner Davis and Dr. Robert Huizenga to name a few. Most of these authors concepts complement Dr Harley's own concepts quite nicely for they help the BS to continue to take care of him/herself through the ordeal of the WS's affair and to gain confidence in themselves and their future.

Keep in mind though that the number one cardinal rule in trying to save your marriage via Plan A/Plan B is to avoid all love busters such as:

1. Angry Outbursts - Who wants to live with a time bomb?

2. Selfish Demands - Who wants to live with a dictator?

3. Disrespectful Judgements - Who wants to live with a critic?

4. Dishonesty - Who wants to live with a liar?

5. Independent Behavior - Who wants to live with a selfish jerk?

6. Annoying Habits - Who wants to live with a leaky faucet?

I highly recommend the often underrated Harley book 'Love Busters' for it is filled with case examples of all these love busters and how they negatively impact marriages.

As far as trying to meet the WS's EN's while they are still involved in an affair, I will have to say that this is a futile gesture for the most part because the foggy WS does not want the BS to do this while he/she is emotionally involved with the OP. The WS views any attempts by the BS to meet his/her EN's not as as sign that the BS truly loves him/her but as nothing more than a manipulative tactic to get them to end their affair. Only after the WS has ended the affair can the BS have ANY hope of meeting those EN's. Furthermore, Dr Harley himself wrote the following interesting paragraph from What Are Plan A And Plan B:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice that the good doctor said willingness to meet those needs AFTER the affair has ended. So many people seem to overlook this very important part of Plan A and continue to tell newbies to try meeting the WS's most important EN's. The only thing that results from these attempts is the BS becoming a doormat whose love for the WS starts to erode quickly and the WS becoming a cake eater with no incentive to end the affair. Unless the BS has this secret desire to wipe out his/her love for the WS in order to move on with his/her life, then trying to meet the WS's needs while the affair is on going is the wrong way to go.

So what should Plan A entail?

1. Avoiding all love busters because they not only continue to drain away whatever love the WS has for the BS, but also because they make it impossible for the BS to create an emotional environment where the WS feels safe to express his/her deepest thoughts and feelings to the BS and where honesty will not be punished (something the OP has done quite effectively).

2. Exposure of the affair to OP's spouse or SO(significant other) even if the affair was a ONS or short lived fling. If the affair is on going then exposure should expanded to include all close friends and relatives of both the BS and WS. The WS may be extremely angry at the BS for exposing his/her affair to the world, but its only because he/she realizes that once people know, he/she won't be able to sell the affair as a 'close friendship' to the people he/she values.

Following the other non Harley concepts should not sabotage Plan A/ Plan B for they are for the BS's personal recovery.

hi all:

picked up a copy of "divorce busting" by michelle weiner-davis today. have you read it? is it any good?

they were out of "love busters" by Dr. Harley (that's what you get for being in AK). will have to order online.

latest update: i talked to her grandma about what's been going on and i guess she (grandma) called her (WS) and yelled at her for doing what she is doing. that was yesterday. so, by the time i came home from work, she (WS) was quite upset w/her grandma. my friend was DJing at one of the bars and i was going to go and was hoping the WS would watch the baby. instead she suggested we find a babysitter and go together. well, we did not find a babysitter. WS is trying to get a job as a bartender, so she picked up a book on drinks. since we did not find a bartender, she suggested that we stay home and she practices making drinks. so we did. we got pretty drunk (her, not me. the alcohol did not work on me for some reason), she turned the music on and started dancing. i joined, she was being pretty affectionate. i tried kissing her, touching her, but she refused. i pushed (i know that was a mistake) and nothing she still said it would be a bad idea to have sex. so, i woke up before she did this morning (she still sleeps on the couch in the living room), packed the baby, wrote her a letter apologizing for last night and saying that I want this marriage to work, but can understand how she feels the need to be separated and left. i was gone all day. back home now and she is still out partying (she told me she was going to go to a party). i wish she could come home sometime soon as i made plans to meet up some friends at a bar. Any thoughts on my last night's behavior?

thanks for your continuous support. i would've done something stupid by now if you guys weren't keeping my hope alive.