Ok here is a question for the WS's.

Did you ever find yourself so deep in the lies that you could not tell right from wrong, or truth from lies?
What occurred that helped you see the difference and begin to dig out from under?
Did you start to believe your own lies?
Did you possibly lie to yourself about how you felt about your spouse?

I am finding out things about my WW that are absolutely blowing my mind! People that, until I told them I want to know everything, had tried to stay out of my business, and or spare my feelings, are telling me some of the twisted lies that my W has told. Stories that are mind-boggling. Stuff has been going on behind my back that I had no idea about, and people that I see all the time have known about for months, but never said a thing!!! My neighbors, who are great people and great advocates of staying married, have been seeing my wifes current and 4th affair go on for months but never said anything. They watch him park the car and sneak into my house while I am away on business. My wife told them stories about me that had my neighbor's wife believing that I was a bad person and that I didn't care about the kids, had lost my sex drive, didn't care about saving my marriage, all of these lies that are now coming out in the open. Once I was able to tell my side, she saw the lies and can't believe that she was duped for so long. She truly is a good person and great friend, and now is trying hard to bring the lies to the surface and help break the cycle.

My WW has been telling people in town that we are divorced, I went away and don't pay child support. None of which is true!! She has told people that she must have known I would come in contact with these things. I am trying hard to save what is left.

Months ago, I thought we were working on recovery, but most of that time she was working on this latest relationship with a man she works with. No wonder all of my trying, and all of my changes went unnoticed. She didn't want to see it. She wanted me to stay away because it suited her stories and her little fantasy world of lies!

I am starting to feel like I am at the end of my rope here, and wondering if the marriage is worth all of the pain. Can somebody please convince me that it is!!?? I love her with all that I am worth, but when is enough, enough? How can I ever trust her if and when she decides she wants to fix it. I really don't know what to do next. I am in a fairly good plan A, but I know that she is still with the OM, and she tells me that she wants out. She keeps threatening to move out and file for D, but hasn't yet. What should I do?


Lost, Dazed and Confused,

r0uter

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

No marriage is worth the pain of putting up with a spouse who has one affair after another. It should be obvious by her actions that she does not care about her marriage to you.

Gee Yosh, Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Just what I needed to hear first thing Monday morning.

My marriage is worth the pain in my opinion. I have three beautiful children with this woman, and I have no intentions of giving up on finding her again. I know that she is lost and has gotten herself tangled up in all of these lies, but she is still there, waiting to be rescued. And I am just the man to do it!
I still see signs that she cares about me, the mere fact that she is still at home after threatening to move out shows me some of this. But, there are other things too. She still calls me to tell me when she will be home, she called me the other night on her way home and asked me if I wanted something to eat,as she was stopping to get something for herself. I believe that she would not have done that if all feelings for me were gone. I know that somewhere in the back of her mind she assumes that I will always be there for her, so she can do whatever she wants and I will take her back. That is why I am starting a Plan A, and 180. I have only implemented small parts so far, and already I can see some things in her change.
So yosh,
Do me a favor and don't leave any posts in my thread unless you have something positive to add. I have enough negatives to deal with already!


r0uter

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

I am not a WS but I know about all of the lies. It is just part of the fantasy. Then they have to continually invent more lies to justify their behavior.

I have gotten where I don't talk to people about his A, because the information I get is too hurtful. He told one neighbor that he left me because I was not into the "biker lifestyle". This after a scrimped and saved, did all the paperwork to get a loan and gave up other things to make half the payments on his new Harley.

The bad thing about all this (besides being so painful to BS) is that when they want to reconcile it causes many problems. They have lied so much that when they tell the truth you can't believe them. This is where I'm at now.

Hang in there and keep trying. Try to take good care of yourself, so that when she wants to work on marriage you still have the strength to do it.

Thank you believer. That is exactly what I think too. One lie leads to another, and another, and another.

I hear what you are saying about wanting to believe but not being able to. I am having a very hard time soring out the truth from the lies.

Let me ask you, was there anything significant that you did to make him change his mind and want to come back?

Thanks for the positive input!

r0uter

I went to Plan B and was in it for 3 months before I heard from him. But I think it is better to stay in Plan A as long as possible. My H and I are so far apart right now, it does not look hopeful.

Well, keep your chin up, I will pray for a breakthrough for you. You are definitely doing the right thing by being here for advice and support.

r0uter

r0uter,

as you know, i am a WS. i saw your post earlier but didn't know how to respond. the lies are the worst part and it is hard to not get lost in them. and you are right, the lies keep us from seeing the positive changes that are occuring. i was so de-void of any hope. but deep inside me i knew the truth, i had to fight to make the truth overcome the lies, i don't think this is really something you can do for her. i know i was watching my H the entire time, seeing if his changes were real or not, it took me a long time to want to take the chance. that is what stopped me from being able to break free, fear, mind crippling fear. it still comes up even now, when it does i let a few tears out (just the ones that refuse to stay in) and then i pray, pray for faith and belief in us. pray for strength to be the person he deserves too. i don't know if the fear was more about if he someone i want to be with or about if i am someone loveable enough for a solid relationship.

you are wonderful to keep trying. i can't believe how long my H keep trying even though i pushed him away so hard.

good luck

FL,

That is the way she describes herself, in not so many words: Devoid of hope for the relationship. I just keep holding on to the little glimmers of care that she sometimes emits. I think she doesn't even realize she is doing it, because if she did, it would be obvious to her that she does still care. (Does that make sense?) Plus, when she does do little things that I think are signs, she says or does things quickly without thought. Maybe it's a case of old habits die hard, but I think that if she really wanted out she would be gone by now. I have already told her that I would help her pack. So there is nothing stopping her but her conscience.
Ahhh the power of positive thinking!


r0uter

Ok, more questions:

I know I should already know this but, What if she insists that she doesn't want to try, that it is all over, but won't leave, won't file for D, that kind of fence sitting? Should I just implement the 180's and see where that goes? I am very confused and feel like as much as I have been around here I should know all of this stuff!

I am scared of tomorrow too, because it is the first day she will have time to do anything related to moving on since I found out last week. I know I will want to call her every 15 minutes to find out where she is, but will have to resist.


r0uter

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

r0uter,

i think it is a good sign that she does things for you. i also think it is a good sign that she has not left yet. Do you have kids? I don't recall if you ever mentioned that. If you have kids and that is why she is staying, that is still a good thing. if she is just staying with you, that is great.

in my head i told myself i was staying for the kids. i would drive my husband crazy because of the mixed signels, sometimes pushing him away, sometimes wanting to make him feel good. i would drive myself crazy tring to figure out exactly what i was feeling too, i saw the fluxuations in me just as much as he did. The bottomline was always the same, i could not imagine splitting up the family. i just could not do it. some say staying for the kids is not good. but it sure helped me to hold on while i worked my way back. for a while i thought i would just last it out until they were all grown, now i really believe i am here forever.

from my lips to God's ears.

good luck with tommorow. i hope she stays!

Router- Remember they all say the same things. She is in the fog. Don't pay any attention to what she says. You are very early in finding out about this. It may go on for awhile.

Keep doing what you are doing, and also work on your own changes. I know it is miserable but will be worth it in the long run.

Thanks for the encouragement again.

I can't get over how emotionally flat she is. There is no remorse, guilt, shame, no nothing! I am not saying that she acts like everything is ok, but she doesn't let me see what she is feeling. Usually, I know when she is happy, sad, mad, or whatever, right now, I can only tell that she is absolutely lost in thought.

She came home late again last night. We talked for a few minutes about an explosion downtown, and a how her day was. Then, I told her how I felt about her and the kids.
She works 12 hour shifts at the local hospital (hostipal if you are one of my twins! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and sometimes I realize she gets caught up in a trauma or something and has to stay a little late, but not every time she goes to work. She has been complaining for a while that the twins don't want to go to sleep for her, and I know why. They are crying out for her affections and time! Even though on the days that she is off work she spends some time with them, often she takes them to daycare anyway and then goes off for the day to do whatever it is that she does. So, the kids feel like they are not getting enough "Mommy time". Sunday, she was working and I stayed home with the kids all day. It broke my heart to hear my little boy ask me, "When is Momma gonna be home?", "Is Momma gonna be home soon?" I'll bet he asked twenty times before lunch! I know they have (Unfortunately) grown used to Dad being gone, but this cry out for attention from Mom is tearing me up! So, I told her about it. I was very calm and factual, I told her that I think she is a great mother when she is with the kids, but that she needs to spend time with them every day if possible. And it is possible. There was no reason that she could not have been home before they went to bed both Sat and Sun nites, but Mom decided to go out for "Coffee" after work. That is what she said, but again, is it the truth? I haven't bothered having her followed, or anything like that. I figure that eventually it will catch up with her and all will be exposed. Like yesterday, my SIL saw her driving at a time when she should have been at work. She said it looked like there was someone in the car with her. A quick call (not to her) told me that my OS had a migraine episode at school. We assumed that he was with her, turns out, he was not. She went home and got medicine for him and took it to his school. Still don't know who the mystery person was in the car with her. (not sure I want to right now either.)
Anyway, after I told her how I felt she just went silent and I asked her what she was thinking about. She just said, "My kids." So, I hope I really struck a nerve.
Before she went up to bed, I stopped her and said, "Hey" "What?" she said, "I love you" I said. She mumbled something I couldn't make out, might have been I love you too, but I really couldn't tell, and went to bed. Was that a bad thing to do right now? Probably, but I want her to know that I care.

The other nite, she had a conversation with her parents and they asked her how she felt. She replied that she had made a mess, and needed help. But she wouldn't say anything more than that. I want to help her, but I don't know how to approach her with this. She says she has been going to some kind of counseling, but I know from before that she doesn't tell the counselor the whole story. How can she get help if the counselor doesn't know the truth? This is driving me crazy! I haven't slept well in a week, and it makes it real hard to finish a 2.5 hour commute! I have committed myself to driving home everyday and can't break that, no matter what, but I feel like I need to be on speed sometimes.

Wow, that's an awful lot for first thing in the morning! I need to finish my second cup of coffee, before I can continue!

Thanks again for letting me vent/journal here!

r0uter

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

r0uter:

I KNOW YOU ARE GOING THROUGH SO MUCH PAIN AND CONFUSION RIGHT NOW AND IT IS SO MIND BOGGLING SINCE SOMEONE YOU LOVE AND TRUSTED HAS NOW BECOME SO UNTRUSTWORTHY. IT IS HELL...NO OTHER WORDS TO DESCRIBE WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH.

YOU ASKED ABOUT LIES...I DON'T KNOW HOW TO QUOTE YOU BY CUTTING AND PASTING (AT LEAST IT ISN'T WORKING FOR ME) BUT YOU ASKED ABOUT LIES... I WAS A WS AND ALSO I BELIEVE MY HUSBAND HAS HAD AN AFFAIR...NO CONCRETE PROOF EXCEPT FOR LIPSTICK ON HIS COLLAR WHICH HE DENIES...SO I HAD A HUGE LIE TO CONTEND WITH, AND IT MADE ME VERY SUSPICIOUS. ANYHOW, SINCE I WAS A WW I KNOW ABOUT THE LIES. I KEPT ASKING MYSELF HOW I COULD LIE SO MUCH...NO, I NEVER BELIEVED MY LIES, I KNEW THEY WERE LIES. I ALWAYS KNEW RIGHT FROM WRONG BUT SINCE I WAS IN A MESS AND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WANTED TO DO, I CONTINUED THE LIES. I REMEMBER AT THE TIME OF MY LIES FEELING SO BADLY ABOUT MY LIES, BUT I JUST KEPT LYING TO CONTINUE WHAT I WAS DOING. WHAT OCCURED TO DISCONTINUE THE LIES? I WAS EXHAUSTED FROM ALL OF THE LIES, ALL OF THE DECEPTION, I WAS HURTING AT HOME AND HURTING IN THE AFFAIR. I AM NOT ONE TO LIE. I HATE LIES, AND I DESIRE PEACE AND HONESTY. DID I LIE TO MYSELF ABOUT HOW I FELT FOR MY SPOUSE? IN A WAY I SUPPOSE. YOU SEE PEOPLE WHO HAVE AFFAIRS SEE SOMETHING LACKING IN THEIR SPOUSE. FOR ME, IT WAS LACK OF ATTENTION FROM HIM, I FELT LIKE HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I EXISTED. I FELT AS IF HE WOULDN'T EVEN CARE IF I HAD AN AFFAIR. SO IT IS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE AFFAIR IS A SYMPTOM THAT SOMETHING IS LACKING IN YOUR MARRIAGE. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT IS LACKING AT THIS POINT IN TIME? HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR WIFE?

YOUR RECENT POST MENTIONED NOT KNOWING WHAT TO DO NOW FOR YOUR WIFE...TELLING HER YOU LOVE HER AND TELLING HER THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO WORK TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE IS IMPORTANT TO YOU, FOR YOUR CHILDREN AND YOURSELF. TELL HER YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO HELP HER, BE HONEST WITH HER. ASK HER WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP HER OUT OF HER MESS. WHAT WAS LACKING, ASK HER. THE TRUTH MIGHT BE HARD BUT IT IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE HEARD. SHE SOUNDS LIKE SHE DOES HAVE SOME REMORSE AND SOME GUILT, AND YOU SAID SHE IS IN THERAPY. ARE YOU WILLING TO ASK HER IF YOU CAN GO WITH HER?

THE EMOTIONLESSNESS THAT YOUR WIFE IS EXHIBITING IS FROM PURE EXHAUSTION. SHE IS VERY CONFUSED RIGHT NOW, SHE LOVES YOU, SHE KNOWS SHE'S HURTING YOU, BUT SHE HAS THIS OTHER MAN ON HER MIND. SHE NEEDS YOU TO BE HER ROCK. SHOW HER THAT YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN TO BE WITH. DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO BE THERE FOR HER. SHOW HER MORE ATTENTION. ALWAYS HUG HER AND KISS HER HELLO AND GOOD BYE. HUG HER FOR NO REASON WHEN YOU ARE IN THE KITCHEN TOGETHER. BE THERE FOR HER. I SINCERELY PRAY THAT THINGS WORK OUT FOR YOU.

YOU HAVE A LONG ROAD AHEAD OF YOU AND IT IS VERY PAINFUL AND LIKE YOU SAID, YOU GET SO ABSORBED IN EVERYTHING THAT IT IS HARD TO CONCENTRATE TO WORK, TO DRIVE, TO ANYTHING. HANG IN THERE! BEST REGARDS TO YOU.

Truelove,
You sound like a long time MBer but I see that this is your first post. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!
It helps to see it from your perspective. I am really starting to see that all of this is "normal" behavior and feelings. I thought I knew it before, but the deeper I dig the more it sets in.
I have always acknowledged that I was more than partly to blame for the affair, and I know what was lacking; attention. (Sound familiar?)
Since a week after we met I have been leaving her alone for periods of time, it sort of became an unfortunate way of life for us. I was in the Navy for ten years and so would go on deployment for 6 months at a time. Now my job is out of town. Since the agency I work for pays for all of my travel expenses and then some, I have always stayed out of town during the week, mostly because it was easier to get to work. (This is the selfishness in me that I have to deal with) I have only recently started commuting so that I can be home with my 3 beautiful children. (They are too!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
As far as the affection goes, right now she won't have it from me. Hmmm... maybe that is an assumption since I haven't really tried since discovery?! I was trying to sort of still give her the month that she had asked for in separation, even though I am coming home every night for the kids.

I would love to go with her to her counselor. But, I am not sure that I believe she is really seeing one! I offered in the past and she told me that her counselor had said that right now was not a good time for that. Sounds like an excuse to me!

I will continue my battle and I am sincerely trying to show her that I am the man she truly needs. I love her for all that I am worth! And I owe her a lot for helping me become the man I am.

r0uter

Router - She probably will not let you give her affection right now. She sounds just like my H. In our case it wasn't the kids - it was the dog. The dog started having psychological problems. I looked it up on the net and it was separation anxiety. Then I started noticing how often H was gone. When I told him about it he said he loved the dog and he was not gone all of the time. I started marking days and the calendar and he was gone all of the time.

My H's OW tells him the most importanat thing in her life is her daughter. That's strange - she left her daughter to be with my H. And she was spending all of her time with my H while 12 year old daughter was home crying.

So don't try to make any sense out of what she says while she is in fogland. Just keep up your program.

Router:

That is exactly what happened in our marriage: a job which took him out of town for 8 years....but when he came home we didn't have love, instead he worked on things around the house so I felt as if I didn't matter any more. Such a sad state of affairs (ironic that I used that word).

Anyhow, I think that when people work out of town, the job becomes number one and the marriage becomes number two. So it leads me to ask...which is more important to you? Marriage or the job? I read you reap what you sow, such a true statement, isn't it?

About the affection, I am not talking about long kisses, I am talking about asking for a hug, stating that you feel so lost and you really could use a hug. Hold her hand, put your hand on her back. Just show her that you care. A card that states how you feel is a good idea as well.

My friend recently allowed the lack of communication, and the lack of showing their love for each other, to cause a distance in their marriage to grow until it ruined their marriage and there was no turning back. I hate to see them throw 20 years of marriage away.

The one week of no conversation turned into several years of hate and discontent. I don't think you want to remain silent and sit back and watch while your marriage crumbles...at least that is not what I hear from your posts.

Ask her again to go to a counselor with you...it doesn't matter if she is seeing one now or not (since you don't really believe that she is seeing one). If you want to get things out in the open, seeing a therapist is a good place to start showing that you care enough about your marriage to take some time to understand what is wrong and what needs fixing. (Have you said you are sorry? just another thought in my mind...it tends to race along with so many thoughts)

BTW, I can almost guarantee you that your wife will resist going to a therapist with you, because that would mean looking you in the eye and discussing this awful mess that the two of you have gotten into, and it's difficult to face when she has another man on her mind. But keep asking and maybe she will go. Best regards.

TL,

The counseling will wait I am afraid, she has stated that right now she doesn't know if she wants to fix the marriage. She seems to think there is nothing left to fix, which saddens me to no end.
We had gone to MC 2 or 3 times back in June I think it was, and she says all it did was make us argue. I don't really remember it that way.

The part about Careers is very messy. I had my career(s) and she was working on her nursing degree (Lifetime dream). We were moving all over the place while I was in service, and it took her ten years to finish. I always tried to help (make) her see the bright side; "All of your friends are out of college but they are not established like you are. You are already married, have a kid, a house a nice car, they have none of that." But it was little consolation. When she finished her degree, I couldn't have been prouder, but she doesn't believe that. Now that she has been a Nurse for several years, I look back and I can see that her new career has really taken it's toll too. Not only on our marriage, but on the kids too. When I brought this up recently, she was beside herself. How dare I make accusations that she love her job more than her family, but that is the reality.
Not to say I am better than her, but I gave up a great career opportunity to move closer to home and help with the twins when they were younger, and she barely recognizes that. She says, yeah you were home, but we still had problems. Um, Hello, your career? When that job fell apart, I was basically forced to go back to what I knew and loved, my away job. During all of this, she had her second affair (EA about 5 months) and I started coming here. I made some good radical changes to the way that I care for her and the kids in an attempt to fix the marriage. Only to find out that my efforts were thwarted by this new OM. (Again when I started leaving town to go to work) I continue to practice the things that I learned here, most have become habit, but she doesn't see it. I realize that I skipped my point; her career has had a detrimental effect also. Nurses are a strange bunch (Sorry if I offend any here), and the ones that she works with are poison (IMHO). Most of them are either single or divorced and all seem to be giving her very poor advice.

As an afterthought: While I was re-reading this post a thought came to me: She seems to be very needy of attention and affection, and has always been a flirt. It never bothered me before because I am not, by nature, a jealous man. But looking back, I really should have realized a very long time ago that leaving her alone, even just during the week, was leaving her vulnerable.

I want to begin having meaningful conversations with her again, does anybody have any ideas for good conversation starters? She will (I hope) be home tonite when I get there (Unless she is playing avoidance again) and I would love nothing more than to just sit and listen to what she ahs to say. I have been reading this morning about effective communication and I want to practice.


Thanks,

r0uter

OK I need help NOW!!

I am shaking like a leaf and can't keep a rational thought in my head.

I just spoke with my SIL who got a message from my W. SIL is tired of being lied to so let the answering machine pick it up. W says she would love to chat with her, please call her on her cell phone. She will be on her cell phone tonight, please give her a call. Knows this is difficult for SIL, but will need her help for next couple of weeks. What the Heck does that mean!!!!????

I am so worried that she is planning on moving out.

SIL called her and her cell phone was turned off. Left a message. W returned call, said that she didn't want to talk on her cell phone, and not in front of the kids, (OM is more likely). SIL said she seemed funny and much too interested in where SIL was. AAAUUUUGHHHH!!! SIL said, "Maybe she thinks she will need my support because she is planning on telling OM to stay away?" I know she is trying to comfort me, but am having a hard time staying positive about what this means. I am afraid of what I might do if I lose this woman. I don't know how I will cope with losing her and the kids. I feel like I am having a nervous breakdown!

r0uter

Router:

I just checked back in to your post...I am totally confused about what SIL means and what are you trying to convey? I don't understand, please excuse my ignorance.

What is SIL? Why do you think she is leaving tonight? If that is what you suspect, can you call and ask her? Maybe your fear is unfounded....try not to worry needlessly, try to find things out before jumping to conclusions. Try to remain calm...sometimes we think the worst when we shouldn't. I pray that you learn what you need to know by calling her so that you are not so freaked out all day long. I absolutely hate that freaking out feeling when you just know something awful is happening but don't know the truth yet.

Good luck. I won't be at my computer for the rest of the day...keep us posted what's up.