Well, I knew to expect this, but it still sucks. H "came back", gave me his apartment keys and told me OW relationship was over not quite a month ago. However, he left her telling her they could be "friends" knowing this was not acceptable to me. But, he committed to me that he would not call her, but that she might call him. I let him back in anyway, thinking I could plan A a bit longer while he got through withdrawal.<P>First couple weeks, no contact, things were ok. But then H started to become distant, etc and last week while we were out of town she called on his cell phone and at the hotel! Then the half truths started again... "I told you she had called and left a message a couple weeks ago" (no- he hadn't). "I didn't tell her where we were going" (and no real explanation of how she could have found out). I hate this!!! And I am so tired... and still H will not give me a promise to tell OW never to call again because he is working on his marriage. I guess he is avoiding her calls, but I don't really know - I am so tired of playing surveillance officer.<P>We have had good time together, but things are still very awkward between us, especially when we are alone. I have been good about listening to what the affair meant to him, how he felt alive and appreciated. But he seems unable to turn his attention to us and improving our marriage. He is so fatalistic about having to just "accept" our relationship and it depresseses me utterly.<P>How hard a line do I take here? H realizes that he an I cannot have a recommitted relationship while he maintains a "friendship" with OW. But he is still waffling! Help! Do I have him move back out until he is able to commit? Do I ignore this for awhile and hope that it subsides? I have been working to have a chance to reconcile for a year, I really don't want to give up now but my patience has worn so thin. I need more from H and soon. This is our 4th "reconciliation" and he never gets through more than a month of withdrawal - I thought this time would be different because it was our first real (4 month) separation - and H said he had thought long and hard about his decision to come back. I really can't do this anymore...<P>Looking for your support and kind advice,<BR>Starpony<p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited January 01, 2000).]

Starpony,<P>Sorry things continue to go up and down. ACH!!! <P>If I were inyour shoes, I would call Steve Harley and get some real expert advice here. You have done all you know how to do and this continues despite everything your H knows he needs to do to totally get rid of this woman. My H did the same thing on our brief reunion - never stopped the contact and he was gone again in 2 1/2 weeks. He will get sucked back in if he doesn't do this.<P>Please call Steve and see what advice he can offer you. It costs $85, but he might offer you something else different to try.<P>I will keep you in my prayers...<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Starpony-<BR>You have worked so long and hard on your marriage...I'm sorry that this still continues to invade your relationship.<P>As far as the phone calls to cell, well, neither you nor he can stop her from dialing the number. You can ask him to change his cell number.<P>The call to the hotel however, in my mind, pushes the envelope. He had to have given her the number or name and location of hotel...why? (that's a hypothetical question, of course.)<P>You seem to know exactly what you are dealing with here so use that to your advantage. How much can you take? If you have him move out, what, exactly, will make you know that he is ready to commit? Perhaps those things will be "seen" while he is still there now.<P>Have you suggested the no contact letter? It seems that as they have agreed to a friendship", along w/the fact that you know, the boundaries are still fuzzy. I'm sure you know that many OW "assume" that when W knows about her and H says "lets just be friends", she has been given a new set of rules to live by and can take bigger "risks"...i.e. calling hotel. <P>No contact seems imperative at this point. Can he live with that? Can you live w/o that?<P>Good Luck and God Bless Starpony<BR>Enlightened

Hi Starpony<P>I was wondering how you were getting on over the holidays and I haven't gotten around to emailing you yet. We just got back from South Africa on Thursday so am still suffering from jet lag. I am so sorry to hear that things are not going well, I had truly hoped that your H was beginning to come around with all the moves and job changes etc. I will email you. Hang in there at least your H is home. Wish mine was! Happy New Year to you perhaps this will be a happy year for both of us. Hang in there.

Oh, *Pony, I'm so sorry to hear you are having a setback! I agree with Desiree, give Steve Harley a call. See what he recommends. You are right, in that, until your H eliminates ALL contact with OW, your marriage is doomed. And, that includes her calling him. They CANNOT remain friends. <P>I can tell you're very worn down. Hang in there. Keep us updated. We'll help you get through this. My thoughts & prayers are with you.

Hi Starpony,<BR>I'm sorry to hear your news.<P>I think my H's OW is still out of the picture, but he continues to slide back into withdrawal (he "thinks about her a lot" I told him he can have her, she'll do both him and his former housemate... oh, a little LB, but I won't take him back again.) He's been home for 5 weeks now. This past week he walked out one night, he left me the impression he might come home, might not--which he has done at least twice in the past year and that was the beginning of a couple of our separations. He wasn't gone so long this time, a couple hours. When he came home I told him that was disrespectful and unkind. If he wants to move out, fine, do so, but I will file. Not a bluff on my part, the long-term drain of my trust and lovebank make it a simple decision (--and since this would be our 7th separation--geez am I an idiot?). He's been great since that day. I have little doubt that he'll keep wanting to jump back on that waffling fence, but he's the only one playing the game. My mind is made up, either I have a marriage, or I don't. I'm not on the fence. I definitely still want my marriage and am not lovebusting--it's as if I don't have enough interest to lovebust.<P>I don't wish for you to get to the place I am emotionally, but as the others have said, you have been so strong. You are strong. The man you love is weak. You can't make him do the right thing, as I can't with my H either. <P>And since I am a couple reconciliations ahead of you I can tell you that in my case I am getting more and more gun-shy of the reconciliation. I don't believe his promises because I have heard them before. He has no words to try to comfort me or give me hope. It sucks.<P>Nevertheless, I'm his wife and time and patience can heal...if he would just stop hurting me. You know the merry-go-round...<P>Best wishes,<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Well, I'm back with more bad news. I snooped again. Confirmed that H has been in phone contact (at least) with OW this past month. That is how she knew where we were. This a.m. she called the house (yes Enlightened you are exactly right with the "new rules" bit) and H told her he couldn't talk. I asked H how he intended to handle this. He said he was going to tell her that he was naive when he told her they could be friends and that he wanted to work on the marriage with me and could not talk to her anymore. But he insisted he needed to go see her to tell her. Sigh... I have no energy to fight this anymore. Either he will find the strength to do what is right or he will not. I am close to giving up - if anyone thinks it is worth encouraging me to hang in there, I could use it.<P>RMA - yes, I have been considering calling Steve more and more over the past weeks. I think I will give it a try. Thanks for caring.<P>Enlightened - nice to hear from you old friend. No - I cannot live w/out no contact. And I fear H may be too weak to ever succeed at it....<P>loveu - I got your email. I will reply soon. Glad you enjoyed the trip. Sounds like H wants to do the right thing - well so does mine but it just isn't happening.<P>sid - thanks, I could sure use the help.<P>Lor - you are so right. H is weak and I cannot make him do the right thing. I also LB'd letting H know after a tiff last night that I was near the end of my rope and that continued contact with OW was totally unacceptable and I was closer to filing than I have ever been. I can't even care if this is an LB - it is all too true.<P>Thanks all for being there.<BR>Starpony

Hey Starpony,<P>Wondered where ya got to. I was hoping things were going better for you. When our friends drop out of sight for awhile it's obvious that there is change afoot. I always hope for the best.<P>Your H has not yet begun the withdrawal stage as he is still in contact with the OW. "They" want to remain friends with the OP. Yeah, OK. You know what burns my [censored] other than a flame this high. They actually believe it can happen.<P>I'm not real good at giving advice right now. I'm in a strange place myself. Just wanted to let you know someone else is listening and cares about you.<P>Tim

Hey Tim,<BR>I've been following your posts but haven't been able to add anything. I can understand how you are feeling though. As for advice, I have been emailing Distressed and she is golden and has really helped me to calm down a bit tonight.<P>You're right. He has not even hit withdrawal yet and his behaviour is typical. At least now he realizes that friendship with OP can't work (yeah, I can feel that flame on my butt too!). Time will tell whether he can actually follow through.<P>Starpony

Starpony...I'm sorry to hear about your H's waffling. It really irks me when betrayers think that they can "still be friends" with the OP. How naive can that be??!!<P>As Tim said, your H still hasn't even begun true withdrawal. It's going to be a rollercoaster ride so hang on!<P>I wish your H didn't feel the need to break contact in person with this OW. I just don't have trust in that. She might give him her sob story and he will forget who he is supposed to be loyal to. The "No Contact" letter is better.<P>You are a strong person and have held on so long. I know you can get through this. My prayers are with you.

Hi *Pony,<P>I've been thinking about you today. How are you doing? Your experience has confirmed my conviction that should my H tell me it is over with his OW, I will not even consider reconcilling unless he sends the "No Contact" letter and agrees to absolutely no contact. Not even friends.<P>My H has been indicating that he wants us to get back together in the spring. He's using the lease he has signed as an excuse for waiting until the end of May. At this point, I don't know how his relationship with OW is going. I don't ask. Although, he did tell me he had a "lonely" Christmas. So, I'm guessing that he didn't spend it with OW. Or, if he did, he didn't enjoy himself.<P>Anyway, I've made up my mind that I don't want him back until he is completely, & totally over OW. And, that would include most of the withdrawal process. I am so emotionally fragile, that I don't think I could handle the waffling back and forth.<P>Hang in there, *Pony. I will be anxious to hear what Steve tells you, if you decide to call him.

Starpony,<P>Yes, please do call Steve. I have no idea what works with our wayward H's. Steve can help put things in perspective and he does motivate the heck out of you. Please do call him before you burn out 100%.<P>Praying for you...<P>Roll me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi starpony, <BR>sorry things are not at their best. It sucks! <BR>Listen, when my H "kind of" ended the affair he also didn't have the guts to completely close the whole thing. She kept calling and calling him either on his cell or on his pager. She felt justified - and do I understand it ! - because he never really told her he wouldn't answer.He told me, I won't call her, but if she calls me I'll answer"- nice! -, but you know what? It was a begining.First he was at home, with me, where I could have a bit more influence than if he was away.Then - bad, I know - his cell was home too so I could check it and have an idea of the calls ( I could even, and I was tempted to do it sometimes, delete her calls if they had come while he was asleep, but I never did that one, decided to let him make the decisions and live with them -.<BR>Two things happened. Plan A was in full force, and it started to really work.He was showing signs of really feeling good home and withdrawl seemed to be less and less of a problem.But she kept calling. The more desperate she was - after all she had just moved from her mom's house to an appartment in hopes that he would follow - the more she called.And he started getting upset with all the calls.They were bothering him. She started calling with excuses from work: there's a meeting, or there's a new development here or there. I managed to be present most of the times his cell was ringing. He was getting more and more feed up. AT first he gave me his pager. Then we disconected it. THe cell he couldn't do it, because it was form work, couldn't change the # either because even if he could, she worked in the same place and would have no problem getting it. But in a way the "desperate" calls worked not to her advantage but to mine. And they slowly ended. I know that most people woulf feel this was not the best way to deal with it, but if you rememeber I had decided to let him make all decisions by himself without interference from me.- execpt some subtle ones, but that's acceptable -.<BR>I don't know starpony, you know what I usually say, everybody is different and reacts to things differently, but look atit this way: it is easy to work from the inside, you have a chance to do uch more. On the other hand, if he came back, he has to want to work on this with you, even if it's difficult. What are the options?If you tell him to go back and come when he feels he can come trough, you'l be feeling bad, he'll have more free time on his hands, she'll still be able to call and things can keep going on a circle. If you don't either things get better as withdrawl goes by, or he's still not strong enought to tell her that a friendship is not acceptable at this point.But he seems to have realized that already. I don't know. Weight both options, think about how you will be able to deal with things one way or the other, see what you can feel from him in terms of resolve to really do it, gauge his actions to you, and find the best way that will work with you.<BR>I followed my own rules, and instincts, and I can say that I'm glad I did. But whatever you choose to do you have to feel confortable doing it.<BR>A big hug<BR>Kat

OK - things always look better (or at least different) in the morning. H came home last night (1:30 am) and was too exhausted to talk and I didn't push it. He came home and that was more than I expected. He told me he did not get together with OW, just talked to her on the phone and had a pleasant conversation (yuck!!). I said I was glad he was home and hoped he would share more with me when he was ready.<P>This morning was a bit awkward, I assured him that I would not leave him if he was honest - I would do my best not to punish his honesty, but hoped he understood how the dishonesty of the last month was affecting me - I truly do feel that the "enemy" is not the OW but the lies. He was still not too interested in talking - but did admit to some phone calls over the last month with OW. He said he does not want to lie anymore and told me he had been doing a lot of thinking. He does not want to hurt me anymore because I am very special to him. He asked for some time to get his thoughts together and we will talk later.<P>I truly do not know what to expect, but I feel ready for anything. From him asking for divorce to total reconciliation to separation or anything else you can imagine. Am trying to prepare for anything..<P>No trust - I know the letter is better, but I really think he has to handle this his own way. Your name says it all - how do you learn to trust again?<P>sid - You are right where I was aug-nov. I did not ask about their contact but assumed it was continuing - even when we were occasionally intimate. My recent snooping confirmed this and the fact that H was at the time lying to OW about it. Yes he was unhappy - how could he not be with so many lies! Let me just warn you that we have done the no contact letter once, and OW showed up at the house and H was moved out to his own place within 4 weeks. Letters don't work unless the commitment is there and I am a sorry judge of the latter. I also - like you resolved not to have him back until the withdrawal was mostly over and this was also what my counselor advised but again I caved...looking back I think I thought I coul control the outcome more if he was with me - I seriously doubt that now. Sorry to sound so negative. I talk to steve tomorrow and will keep you posted.<P>RMA - I read your note on your superwoman post. I am better today - and am on the Steve bandwagon so will let you know how it goes..<P>Kat - Hi, always so good to hear from you. You are an inspiration. I will take your words to heart.<P>Thanks all,<BR>Starpony

Starpony,<BR>In early November, I finally heard the words I'd been NEEDING to hear.....I want to make this marriage work ! <BR> Great...right...welll.. maybe<P>We're really fine but we have really had to struggle through his relationships with other women because he thinks he is in total control with other woman friends and nothing will ever happen.<P>There are only two things that I stood really firm on when we passed thru the many phases,<BR>1. We would live together until we divorced or fully reconciled <P>and <P>2. No longer can he have friendships with single women....there can be no emailing back and forth, there can be no drinks here and there and FINALLY, there can be no get togethers UNLESS THEY INCLUDE ME IN THE ACTIVITY.<P>He's not totally happy with this deal but I believe that he's coming to the conclusion that if it doesn't work between us...it is going to be because of that sole issue and he couldn't live with that being the deciding factor. His mid-life crisis/fantasy didn't just go away over night...it's taking time !<P>So the short answer, something about Rome....these connections die a slow death no matter what the renewed committment to you is !<P>Does he still email....maybe....does he see her(them) when he goes to the local hangout? yes....but does he feel as good about those emails and his contact with them...NO ! and...he's begun to show me what he writes which are really short stories rather than the pleansantries of trying to be connected.<BR>(he wants to write and she was a published writer)<P>Don't give up, my husband really wanted nothing to do with me ever again, he despised me and clearly told me so. His actions confirmed those god-awful thoughts.<P>But here we are..we had a really nice holiday season and we were so noticibly affectionate in front of others that my family commented continuously !!<P>- Tina <P> <BR>

Tina,<BR>so nice to see you here! <BR>Glad everything is going the right way.<BR>Hugs<BR>Kat<P><BR>Starpony, you'll do fine<BR>hugs to you too.<BR>

Starpony,<P>Glad you are feeling a litle better today. I have my candle going for you tonight. Waiting to hear what Steve tells you tomorrow...<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

hi all,<BR>Just wanted to thank you for the replies.<P>Tina - good to hear from you!! And so glad things are going well. you inspired me to really think about what I need at this point - glad your approach worked for you.<P>RMA - Will keep you posted! Thanks!<P>I think H will be happy to avoid talking to me and I have a big project to finish tonight so unless he brings it up, i will wait to talk to him until I have spoken to Steve H.<P>Thanks again everyone,<BR>Starpony

Hi Starpony,<P>Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. You asked me what was done to get trust back? Well, it hasn't all returned, but a lot of it has. It has taken many months and a lot of work on my H's part.<P>I believe I will never have that "blind" trust that I had in him before. To do that, would be foolish on my part.<P>Anyway, we had a good therapist and she stressed honesty, accounting for time, calling on a daily basis, spending more time with me & kids....similar to Harley's methods.<P>My H wasn't used to this, but he did it to compensate for his infidelity. At first, he had a hard time adjusting because he felt like he had no privacy. He soon realized that it was essential for recovery.<P>The honesty came in spurts and many times, I found him in lies. He realized, after many painful arguments, fights, etc, that honesty is the best policy.<P>As the therapist suggested, he did start calling everyday when he was leaving work, if he would be late, where to reach him, etc. That helped a lot. Funny thing is that it used to bother him....now it has become second nature and he realizes now, that it is only common courtesy to call if you will be late. What's nice is that sometimes he just calls me from work to talk.<P>On his days off, he spends it with me & the kids. He hardly goes out with friends anymore. We have great family time together. When he is off by himself, he goes to the gym to work out, but comes straight home afterwards. I always know where to reach him.<P>Trust is coming back in bits & pieces, but everytime he does something stupid....it puts us a step back. I'm learning how to be patient & understanding so that he feels that being with me is "safe." It will take awhile. I can feel that....but I'm confident that we can overcome this.<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited January 04, 2000).]

Starpony,<BR>One thing that surely helped us out was that the only people that my husband listenened to and respected...were people that I told everything to from the beginning. So...when he spoke to them...they really understood what he was talking about. I clearly identified what I'd done wrong, what he said was the issues and where we were headed. Eventually, it was thru these folks, who over time, helped him to gain enough perspective about what he would lose, that helped him to consider opening up to me. (He felt that my lack of care for him hurt him so dearly that he never wanted to feel that again )<P>Initially, he wouldn't hear of how wonderful I was from them...HE WAS EXTREMELY ANGRY...eventually, that went away and WHO CARES CAME TO VISIT...eventually that went away to reality...AM I GOING TO LIVE LIKE THIS FOREVER ?....that led to talking with his parents, his aunt and uncle and our trusted friend. <P>It's only when he opened up to others that his fantasy life was exposed and it then became dreary reality of him chasing a lifestyle that you can only truly enjoy in your early years long before you have a spouse and children. <P>-Tina<P><p>[This message has been edited by TFloyd (edited January 04, 2000).]