I need your advice regarding the Plan A / Plan B scenarios. H left in September and has been seeing OW - which he has had an affair with since the end of 2001. This all came out in October 2003 - but I knew about the affair since 2001 and didn't approach H hoping he would end it on his own. So, that didn't work. This is my question - like all of us - I am on an emotional rollercoaster. I have begged, cried, groveled, cried some more and now am going through the anger stage. I literally blew up with H over the phone one morning - that man did not have a chance to breathe. I was so angry with the whole situation - I told him I hated him for putting me and the boys through something that we don't want. I am so deadset against this, but he has this 'plan' to go through with this divorce and just see what happens later. Later?? Here is my questions, what do I do here? I have been compassionate - every time I saw him I would tell him that I loved him (and get the 'I know' response) and we would kiss. He always hugs me - but since the blow up conversation, I haven't told him that I love him nor do I show any compassion toward him - no touching at all. Not sure if this bothers him or not. He has called me several times to dicuss children issues and has tried to have casual conversations, but I cut him short. What do I do? His brother told me that H just wishes I would get angry - H has thought about coming home, but H said I have been too easy - H wants me mad and resentful. Hmmm? Done that, nothing. Does he want ME to punish him? H said he knows he is wrong and has committed the mortal sin - but he is still doing it and prancing it around in front of the boys. I am so confused. I love my husband and want nothing more than to reconcile - but I am so hurt. What am I doing wrong? Help!! Praying every minute of every day for guidance. I really don't want H to think he 'has' me and her too. What an ego boost that would be. I don't know if letting go is a good thing - it could keep him in her bed. Ugh!!! Argh!!! I am loosing it here.

Howdy!

My goodness, you have been put through the wringer haven't you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sounds like a typical "cake-eating" scenario...he thinks he has carte blanche to keep on doing what he's doing with no negative consequences.

A lot of WS seem to be in a juvenile state of mind -- the A represents "acting out". His comments...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H just wishes I would get angry - H has thought about coming home, but H said I have been too easy - H wants me mad and resentful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...seem to support this conclusion in the case of your H.

As for suggestions, I'm a bit confused after reading your story through a couple of times, so I have some questions for you.

1. Have you read all the material available here? Are you familiar with Plan A? Do you feel you've been doing Plan A?

2. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here is my questions, what do I do here? I have been compassionate - every time I saw him I would tell him that I loved him (and get the 'I know' response) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think this is an effective thing to do in Plan A. Unless he is specifically concerned that you do not love him, and even then, he's not likely to believe you!

Perhaps he's been getting mixed signals from you: you are upset about the A but you still love him? And will carry on in your M for 2 years? Then why should he quit???

3. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but he is still doing it and prancing it around in front of the boys. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What on earth is he doing in front of your sons???

4. How familiar are you with Plan B? Are you scared of it? If so, why?

5. Unfortunately, Plan B needs to follow a good Plan A. It sounds as though your Plan A is out the door recently. How long has this been going on?

I'm sure your answers will also help anyone else who drops in to comment.

All the best...awed

Thank you for your reply - let me see if I can sum things up for you. In 2001 H began to show interest in OW by making small comments to me about her - I just took them as such and didn't read into them then. I began to notice more casual conversations between them and body language that was uncomfortable to me, but thought to trust him. In July of 2002 I had to go out of town, first time in 11 years since I went anywhere without my husband, anyhow - found out OW was going to watch my husband coach our boys in ball and OW had come over to our home. So, there I was hundreds of miles away knowing this was going on - and husband denying every bit. The day I was on my way home couldn't reach husband to call and tell him I was on the road until later that day, when I was just an hour or so away - found out later, husband had taken boys over to her house to swim. Great. Anyhow, I finally broke and confronted husband about my feelings and was able to back up suspicions with cell phone - husband had been calling OW everyday. Okay - admitted to that, but denied A. In September of 2002, received anonymous letter stating husband was having affair with OW (to this day I think OW mailed it to me) - I literally fell apart - called husband and he denied to the utmost that this was not happening and was very upset about who would do such a thing to me and to accuse him of such deceit (ha). I really wanted our marriage to work and didn't press the issue and husband seemed to be more intense on our relationship - but I was still getting uneasy feelings whenever I was around OW - I knew A had not stopped. In September of 2003, husband wanted to try trial separation for a week - we did and we sucked at it. We called each other all the time and was just miserable. He asked to come home and of course I was open arms. He stayed home for 12 days and then dropped the bomb that he wasn't happy. We had an incredible 12 days of intimacy and him telling me that his family was the most important thing in his life and that I should put my guard down, because he was home to stay forever. He loved me and the boys and this was what life was all about. Well? He left and came home for a few days in October - we still had sex off an on throughout the first few months - and haven't been together intimately since the first of November. Ouch. I have read and read on just about everything - my mind is exploding. Plan A - my husband knows that I love him. Everyone knows that I love him. You are right at suggesting why should he quit A when I am submissive to it. That hurts. I hate the A, but the thought of being without him was much worse to me than letting him go through this phase in his life (MLC). I look back and I gave in way too much to everything - I am now learning more about me, which is the only good thing coming out of this. I am still beating myself up about 'what is wrong with me' at times, but know in my heart that I am a good person and this is him - not me. What he has done to my boys is unforgivable. Here are two boys that saw their mom and dad love each other all the time - we always were affectionate toward each other - we would make the boys laugh. We were never 'dirty' in front of them - just pecking and holding each other - a lot. He left home and then in a short time, has taken our boys to her house to stay overnight - granted H didn't sleep with OW during the night, but the boys are having such a hard time accepting this OW. She is nice they say, but they want their mom. She has three kids that have been friends of my boys for awhile - so this is kinda fun to them in some ways. My H even went as far as telling the boys that he has slept with OW. Yeah, can you imagine the thought process that was on a 13 and 11 year old?? The 11 year old is devastated. He told me his dad told him not to tell me, but he just cried and cried to me. It was heartbreaking. I told him his father should have never shared that with him and to not worry about anything. I knew that, so he wasn't keeping it from me. He told me he was mad at his dad and that nothing about this is right - not one thing. H definitely not using the head on his shoulders when it comes to his children - only thinking about himself and trying to make the perfect family life with OW and her kids. Hmmm. This is not gonna work for him. Plan B - yes I am scared. I am terrified of a life without my H. H is the only man I have ever been with - we were high school sweethearts - have been together for 26 years - married for 19. Plan A - if I understand this correctly - returning home should be made as an attractive choice - how can I do this. When he stays with OW, there are no kids to interrupt their playing house. When he would come home, of course we would have our boys and then their need for the dad's attention as he was there. I couldn't possibly demonstrate to him the compassion in my heart - as I was being a mom too. Homework, bath and bedtime doesn't stop when you want it to. Unfortunately. I would love to be given the chance of one on one with him - to show him the unconditional love I have for him - the environment just wasn't compatible for that. You can only stay behind locked doors for so long before you hear knocking and when we went to bed at night - yes, we were at it (sex) again while the boys were sleeping, but it just isn't the same as having the whole house to yourself to play. The separation is scaring me to death - out of sight out of mind thing - don't like it one bit. H had told me in the past that what he has done is just horrible - that he doesn't think I could handle it if he came home. I told him not to judge my character. He cannot make a judgement call like that without trying and that his family was worth the effort. My C said husband doesn't want to give up the connection with OW in case we are not going to be able to work it out - although we haven't tried. Funny, H has no idea what it is like to be alone - he left our bed on a Friday afternoon and was in her bed that night. He has no idea. I have grown as a person, dealing with coming home to nothing when he has the boys - it is a cold and lonely house without children (and my husband for that matter) - you know, he has shown me just how weak he is as a man and I know he couldn't possibly handle being alone. His ego couldn't handle it. What do I do? I pray unmercifully, but I also know that I must let God have control of this, it is just hard to let go. So, I have taken up enough of everyone's time with my story - and I am sure mine isn't as bad as most - it is just the end of my world for me. I love my husband - very much - have never doubted our love for each other, what he has done is definitely heart wrenching, but at least I am willing to work at it - just wish he was a man strong enough to face his mistakes and grow from them. Our boys would grow into far greater men seeing their dad admit to his mistakes. God help us all. Thanks for your advice - I so need it.

Wow...what a story...

First off, in future break your post into paragraphs as it makes a long post (or even a short post) much easier to read!

I have some more questions: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

1. What kind of counselling are you in? MC, IC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My C said husband doesn't want to give up the connection with OW in case we are not going to be able to work it out - although we haven't tried. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. Are you on anti-D's?

3. What support group do you have? parents, friends, other family

And be specific...how many, what kind of support, etc.

4. What other interests do you have in life? Are you working? Do you belong to clubs? Take classes?

5. How large a town/city do you live in?

6. Is your H living with you currently, or not? (I'm still a bit confused about that)

Is he taking the boys on overnight trips to OW's place as part of an ongoing A or because he lives there and that is where they see him?

7. Have you exposed the A? To whom? What was their reaction?

hang in there...awed

Sorry about the long post - I got carried away.

I meet weekly with IC. Yes, I am on antidepressants. I have both families support (which means in-laws) and many friends and prayer groups at church.

I have a full time job, which thank God everyone has supported my every emotion here. I work out three times a week at a gym to keep me fit - I have lost 30 pounds in this ordeal - 30 pounds I did not have - now I am trying to gain. Go figure. Never thought I'd have to do that in my life.

I live in a relatively big city - nothing like Chicago.

Husband moved into own apartment the end of November - he had been staying with parents when he had the boys and then staying with OW other days. Parents put a stop to that. He is not allowed to take boys on overnight stays with her any longer, per attorney, so he just spends the entire weekends there and takes the boys to the apartment to sleep. He does keep the boys two nights during the week, which he does not visit OW due to homework and such. Has to be a dad sometime.

Yes, A has been exposed to family and some friends. They have all responded in shock. Quite disappointment in husband - thought he was a better person than that. Can't imagine why he would do something like that to his family that loves him so much. One even claims he has been alien abducted and wonder if they will ever return his brain!

You see, my husband and I have been role models for a lot of our friends and family as far as the love we displayed for each other. Everyone would always say how special we were and that they wished they had a relationship like ours (now they don't). We were always affectionate. MIL cannot believe she would ever tell anyone the 'd' word with our names following. She is crushed. She is ashamed of her son.

I have a lot of Christian support that I cling to - they're the ones that give you hope. His best friend is not supportive of this decision and speaks that so often to him - hopefully one day husband will listen to that.

So, that is where I am now. You know the whole story - I don't think I've left anything out. (lol) So, what do you think? Is there hope here? Will he EVER get it? I don't want to live my life without my husband - my boys keep asking me not to give up on their dad. Give him some time mom. They keep me going.

Don't worry about the length of the post...well I would say that because I write long posts! But it is way easier to read with the paragraphs...thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay...the good news is you do not have to give up on dad! The bad news is that he is (as they say) on the mothership right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> There's nothing you can do about that...you've done very very well so far and he is not responding to treatment!

I'm thrilled to hear about your support...it sounds excellent. You need to get things in place for Plan B -- you being active, an intermediary for the kids, lots of distractions, etc.

Go lurk around the Plan B threads for a bit...they are wonderfully inspirational and supportive. Lots of good people there determined to wait things out. Every once in a while someone loses hope, but that is life. The chance the WS takes when they refuse to recommit to the marriage.

Yes: bluntly put, I do think you should go to Plan B. You've tried what you can...he's cake-eating it up. That stuff about the boys...that is simply horrific.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My C said husband doesn't want to give up the connection with OW in case we are not going to be able to work it out - although we haven't tried. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's the thing isn't it...your H is not trying. And he doesn't want to give up the connection to OW. Plan B? He gives up his connection to you instead.

Fear: I have a few suggestions...

1. Do this exercise (bottom of the thread). emotional detachment

Get to the root of your fear. What specifically are you afraid of? Write it all out and face it. It will help.

2. Likely one of the things you will say is the following...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know if letting go is a good thing - it could keep him in her bed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but he's already there isn't he? And despite your very best efforts (for quite some time too!), he's still there.

One of the biggest fears is that if you push him, he will walk. But he already HAS done so...he's just getting the best of both worlds right now because he's so darn selfish! He can't see beyond the end of his nose...he can't see what he's doing to his children...he can't see their pain, their confusion...and he certainly is not allowing himself to see yours!

As the quote cerri includes in her signature line states:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about it...awed

Hi AMF,

I have to say that in reading your posts,I ha never had such a desperate feeling to pick up a phone and call someone(you)! E-mails take so long but I was struck at how similar your situation and mine are in certain ways(such as being the role models of friends and family for having such a great relationship).

I have been in plan B since the beginning of Janary.I tried to do it sooner but with last years holidays it was too difficult what with family and friends being around so much.

I can't tell you how much better I have felt,overall,being in Plan B.I still have some bad days here and there but I have grown so much.And like you,I had to face one of my biggest fears and that was if my WH and I didn't stay married.My WH and I were eachother's first "real" loves,have been together for almost 20 years now and had such a loving marriage that I could have wrote a self help book by.Our daughters thrived in such a loving household these past years.Now that is gone.

I got to a point where I faced my fear,being without my WH,and it was freeing! Once I actually walked through the fire,by thinking about it and all the consequences over and over,it had less power over me.I came to realize that,yes,I would be ok NO MATTER WHAT.It would be hard,yes.I would miss the loving relationship I once had with my husband,yes.I would miss being married,yes.BUT,I also came to realize that I am a worthy human being.The one person I trusted most in the world has hurt me beyond comprehension.It was unspeakable.

And now,almost 4 months later,my WH STILL has not cared enough to stop his hurtful behavior and chooses to be with that homewrecker(my pet name) who he only knew WEEKS at the time the A came out.So I will NOT let him be a part of my life like he was used to.

Will he come back one day? I honestly don't know and I am not sure I care anymore.He has become the antithesis of what I had always held dear in my heart as a husband,father,friend and lover.He has lost all his integrity,honesty,dignity.He has lost the respect of many and is not the kind of man I would want for my daughters to one day love and marry.I could have forgiven him the A but not the continued torture of two families.That is what I wrestle with in my mind each day now,whether or not to walk down to the lawyers office.He has shown no regret and shows no sign of making me and his family number one in his life.

He doesn't talk to his family much,he lost their respect too and they support me in full.They also want to supoort him but they will never welcome the homewrecker into the family.

Show your boys that you respect yourself.Don't allow that WH to have his cake and eat it too.Sever ties with him until he makes YOU his priority.Until he does,you will have nothing to so with him.Yes it is hard to do but once Plan B begins,you will see so much clearer what you have been put through.You will look at the situation through new eyes,less pain since you will no longer be near the person that has inflicted the worst imaginable pain on you.

Plan B is not giving up on your marriage and it is not giving up on WH.It is removing yourself from the equation until he gives you and his children the respect you deserve and is willing to recognize that what he did was a wrong,that he needs to end the A and he needs professional help.

A warning though,Plan B can take a LONG time so you need to hunker down and improve and take of yourself and kids.

O

AMLF, I think awed has it right when she says that your husband has been living the good life. He's got a wife who'll take care of the kids and have sex with him when he wants it. And he has a mistress who will have sex with him when he wants it. How can life be bad?

Now, I suspect based on what you've said that you've done an imperfect Plan A. You've met needs, but you've also done a whole lot of LoveBusting.

We're about to put that behind you, if you'll walk along with me to a couple of new concepts.

1. Your husband has shown no inclination to change.

2. Your fear is that your actions will destroy your marriage.

3. Your marriage is ALREADY DESTROYED.

Okay, hard to get your head around that last one, I know. But let's look at it. Your husband lives with another woman. Come on, sweetie, let's face some facts here, and you can cry for days if you need to, but this man is NOT in your marriage right now.

Abducted by aliens, sure. But actually doing the marriage thing? Nah. Not today and not for months.

So okay, time for you to sit down and start writing out what you need to do in order to completely (COMPLETELY) end your dependence on him. Except, of course, court-ordered child support. What does that mean?

- Close the joint bank account
- Stop answering his calls
- Find an intermediary
- And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Have you read SAA yet? You need to. Have you called one of the coaches yet? You need to. Call Penny Tupy or the Harleys, and get some real help here. It's simple stuff, but man, it takes a HUGE change of perspective to understand it.

If I could sum it up, I would say that you have to finally accept that no, you can't actually be stabbed again before you fall over bleeding and die.

It's your choice, of course. If you need more time to suffer, hey, god'll give you as much time as you ask for.

Just J -

Ouch! As painful as that was to read - I do understand and don't like it either. Unfortunately fund$ are too low to call and speak with a coach - I am sure it will take more than one phone call and yes, my marriage is worth every cent, but when you don't have it, you don't have it. Financial situation is under stress at this moment.

So, Plan B, is just total and complete detachment and leave it at that? Man, you talkin about pain - that one hurts. I love this man with all of my heart and want nothing more than to work on our marriage - what there is left of it and grow from this. He hasn't quite shown total signs of detachment on his part yet, so I just don't know what to do next. (No, we have not been together intimately for quite some time - ugh - guess he can't cheat on his girlfriend with his wife - lol). Boy, that one hurt to say.

I am having a very sad day today and holding back just bawling my eyes out - good thing I am at work or I would curl up somewhere and die.

I can do this - this being alone thing - I just don't want to. This is not my life plan. I gave this man heart, body and soul. Completely. So now, I have to get them back and get myself in check.

I still can envision us sitting somewhere together watching our grandchildren play. That has always been a dream of ours - to be awesome grandparents. I don't want to be that without him, I mean I know we will be grandparents, God willing, I just want our children to bring their kids over to 'our' house and have us 'both' there.

What has happened to this world of ours. More and more people just 'give-up'. I happen to think what we have is something worth fighting for - just wish husband could see it that way.

I will continue to pray and not give up hope - are you suggesting that I should give up hope. That this is a lost cause? I love my husband. God be with us all.

Tough love...but the support is fantastic!

Of course your case is not hopeless, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> nor should you frame it that way to yourself, or to your boys, or to family and friends.

Read up on Plan B again...check out the threads...go ask Cerri on her thread (on JFO)...$$$ is tight, okay, but you can still get lots of inspiration on this site if you look for it...

As Octobergirl says...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan B is not giving up on your marriage and it is not giving up on WH.It is removing yourself from the equation until he gives you and his children the respect you deserve and is willing to recognize that what he did was a wrong,that he needs to end the A and he needs professional help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds to me like lots of family and friends in your life will back this sentiment up. You are very lucky -- many of the people posting here are far away from family/friends or worse yet, have to cope with family members supporting the WS.

I'm also thinking that it would be wise to specifically ask folks here how they explained Plan B separation to their children...it seems to me that given the treatment your sons have already received they might well understand your actions if explained to them honestly.

But seek input...most things (right and wrong!) have already been tried here and people are so generous in sharing their experiences.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am having a very sad day today and holding back just bawling my eyes out - good thing I am at work or I would curl up somewhere and die. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what? Make sure you do let your emotions out (away from your sons of course!). Bawl, scream, pound your fists...let them out.

You'll find it therapeutic to release the strong emotions and then move on with daily life. Still sad, just not mortally so. It gets easier with time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can do this - this being alone thing - I just don't want to. This is not my life plan. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, your life plan has NOT changed...you are anticipating a WHOLE lot. You are still focussed on saving your M -- Plan B is to HELP you save your M, not guarantee your perpetual solitude.

The reason I asked the question about what size of town you live in is because in a larger city, you can seek a real live support group. Or join a club, start a new activity. ENGAGE yourself elsewhere so that you are LESS alone than you are now. Keep busy...

Secondly: do NOT think of the future...it's one day at a time right now. You need to emerge intact at the other end...

Here's a good technique to use: if thinking of something in the future (ie. summer holidays, retirement, next Christmas, next week) causes you pain, DON'T think about it. Only think as far ahead as you can without anxiety. Perhaps right now that might only be tomorrow. Perhaps you can think a week in advance. Any further (fear, anxiety), STOP.

Carry on with life one step at a time...awed

AMLF,

Okay, I'm just going to out myself here... I'm working with Cerri/Penny as a mentor, and it means that since I'm in training, you can use my services for free. E-mail me at justj_mb@yahoo.com and let's set up a time. Am I as good as Penny? Course not. But I'm better than no one and sometimes it takes a whole lot less time to talk a few things over on the phone.

I'm working today, so it's going to take me a while to answer everythign you said. I -will- get to it, though.

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

Okay, now that I've read this through, I really only have a couple of things to add.

Plan B is NOT about ending your marriage. It's about keeping you sane enough that you avoid getting to that point. It happens too often that people are so resistant to Plan B that they end up filing for divorce instead. And how does THAT help save a marriage?? (Don't answer that; it was rhetorical.)

So send me that e-mail. Attach a list of all the things you need to do to protect yourself from the effects of your husband's unpredictable behavior. You do not know what he'll do next. The things that people do in these situations are amazingly odd and sometimes very much threaten the stability of their spouses' lives. So you should plan for:

- NO financial support
- No emotional support
- The possibility of him taking legal action
- The possibility of him refusing to leave you alone
- The possibility of him disappearing and not telling you where he is

And a lot more things. If you're thinking "he would NEVER do that!" then that's the one you need to plan for the most. Trust me. I've been on the receiving end of that one and it cost me six months of my life, tens of thousands of dollars, and more heartbreak than I can ever express to get it straightened out again.

Okay...I need to jump in here one last time to add:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I'm better than no one...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...she's terrific! (albeit not Cerri... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but who is?) Please take advantage of her offer!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

awed

(double post)

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Dear AML,

Hang in there. You are doing so well.

Dear AML,

Hang in there. You are doing so well.

Dear AML,

Hang in there. You are doing so well.