Before I write my Plan B letter, I feel I need to write a letter to my MIL. She and I have always had a very good relationship.

Although we have not talked much (once in fact) since July, I feel I must inform her of her daughter's actions, use of contraceptives, etc.

I am wondering what the best way to do this is? Can someone advise? Or is it best to write the Plan B letter to WS and send a copy to MIL? I am thinking to write two letters, because aren't Plan B letters supposed to bea pseudo-love letter?

My letter to MIL would inform, would be written warmly, but WS would not consider it a love letter in any fashion...

Thanks. Looking forward to lots of replies.

My WS voice mailed me, responding to my separation agreement and does not like the notion of selling the house. This will be a major sticking point and may be the difference between an agreement we can work out on our own, or having to use lawyers.

I also went home today to hug the kids and find that WS has packed some of my books in boxes for me and has put our wedding album in amongst my things. This hurts. It shows how much she wants to forget about the marriage and wants to disassociate herself with any memories of our 13 years together. Broke down and cried in front of son today when I saw the wedding album.

Shaken but not stirred - this may well be one of those "hit and run" sort of posts since I "hang out" most of the time on the Recovery Forum. I had a little extra time this morning and surfed some of the other forums and your posting caught my eye.

First, I assume you are both Christians, from what you stated in one of your threads, but I have to admit to being amazed that neither one of you seems to be applying Christian principles of obedience to God in this mess. I sort of understand your wife not doing so, because that is part of the nature of fog of sin and adultery, but I am a bit surprised at your "doing it yourself" method of "handling things." Your efforts, in your own power, have been dismal.

Lest you think I being overly harsh, let me simply say that I am speaking from experience, the experience of a Christian WW in an affair for 6 years before 'lil 'ol dunderhead me woke up and faced the fact that not only was it "possible," it was in fact true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear Star*fish, Believer and whoever else cares to respond:

I am feeling that there is only one reason to implement Plan B: It is for me. It can't be for any other reason because the facts as I know them are as follows:

- WS is completely out of love with me. I have not heard ILY in about 4 years, and I know wife has not loved me for about 2 years </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know this one, for me it was 6 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - WS admits, quite proudly in fact, that she is now on birth control. She is either already in the midst of a sexual relationship with someone else or is about to embark on one.

- WS has no desire, nor interest, to work on the marriage or even to consider reconciliation. She has made this clear many times

- WS has already moved on with her life. I am now officially in her past, even though we are still married.

- WS has simply not allowed me to meet any of her ENs for 17 months now. The only needs she wants me to meet relate to my involvement with our 4 children, and financial needs that she has.

- WS leads a secretive life. She has abandoned all but one of her established friends, and no longer has much of anything to do with her older set of friends.

- WS has no contact with my family, except my sister, who she sometimes runs into because they live somewhat near each other, our sons are on the same soccer team, they run into each other at kids' school functions or grocery store, etc.

- WS has given up attending church

- WS has no remorse or regret that she has given up on the marriage

- WS is a good dancer and goes to nightclubs on a weekly basis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL of this screams loudly, that despite your refusal to face reality, your wife has been involved in an affair for a long time. You continue to deny, and make excuses, for your wife's behavior, but it doesn't change the fact that there is virtually NO chance that she has not been involved in an affair for a long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as I am concerned, there is only one positive thing in our relationship. That is, WS wants and desires me to have as much of a relationship with our children as is possible under the circunstances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife's "wants and desires" notwithstanding, this part has little to do with her. It is YOUR responsibility as the father to your children and as the "head of the household" role that God has assigned to you. Your "duty" is to God and to your children, not to your wife, in this area.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, having said all this, is there even the remotest possibility that Plan B will even work?

I seriously doubt it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With God, all things are possible. But I have seen precious little in all that you have posted to date that leads me to believe that it will work. The reason is that you are not being obedient to God yourself.

It may be "too late," but with God things are never too late.

First point: It should never have been YOU to leave the house, and it shouldn't be so now. It is time for you shoulder your responsibility to your children and move home. If your wife doesn't like that (and I doubt she will) then she goes. SHE is the one seeking to destroy the marriage through an affair, and you must protect yourself, the children, the household finances, etc. from the determined actions of someone willfully locked in a battle against God and the marital covenant.

God is quite clear, despite her self-delusional arguments....unrepentant adulterers (or adulteresses) will NOT be in heaven. She is risking far more than just you and the children.

You really have little understanding of "Tough Love" concepts, but you need to know them and be ready to implement them.

This has gone on long enough. Either you take a firm stand FOR God, your family, and your marriage covenant, OR you get a divorce and "move on." Divorce should be the last resort, but God does "sanction" it for the Betrayed Spouse when there has been marital unfaithfulness.

If you want, I can email you a pamphlet that was very helpful in helping my wife and I to take the steps necessary to begin recovery and to learn to "re-love" each other. Keep in mind, in my case, my wife had her own secret apartment, had the divorce papers already drawn up, had "accepted" a marriage proposal from the heathen OM, had her own bank accounts, etc. - - - in short, the marriage was over in her mind while I was the "unsuspecting" gullible fool of a spouse.

If you want to talk more, or get any of the materials that I have, please drop me a note on the Recovery Forum. I may check back in here, but it's sporadic at best.

Summary....my wife and I are now almost 21 months into recovery and doing very well. We've both learned a lot and changed a lot. But the bottom line has been a willingness on both of our parts to try to be obedient to God's commands regardless of how we might be "feeling" on any given day.

God bless.

Wow, that was a great post, foreverhers. What do you think Shaken?

Dear ForeverHers:

I have waited to respond because I wanted to think long and hard about your message below. I also wanted to see if anyone else would comment. We do have one additional response, but I was hoping for more.

On the positive side, I do appreciate you taking some of your precious time to respond. I really appreciate it. However, I have to admit I find much of your post very rigid and somewhat judgmental. Let me say why.

First, while it is clear a heavy-handed approach like yours may have worked in your marriage (I am pleased it has), if you read more of my story you would know that this type of approach would never bring my wife back and, frankly, in her emotional and mental state would likely seal the death knell of the marriage. My wife's chief complaint - more than any other - is that I have been a controller and a smotherer for our entire marriage. This is not entirely without foundation.

Second, I don't believe you can say that my attitude or actions have been un-biblical. My father was an internationally-known pastor and Christian conference speaker; I grew up in the conservative Christian church and was a leader in the church until my marriage troubles convicted me to step back. By virtue of the fact that I have done everything in my power to win my wife back, have involved the church leadership to watch me so I can be above reproach, and have sacrificed nearly everything for my wife in the past 17 months, I am really not in a position to be told how I am not applying Christian principles of obedience to my marriage.

My bible says "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church". My bible says "honour your wives as the weaker vessell". My bible says "cleanse your wife with washing of the word". I can say before God I have and continue to do all of this.

You are right about the house, I believe. I never should have moved out. But forcing my way back in will do nothing. Furthermore, for practical purposes, my wife has the children during the week. It is not practical for me to have young ones when I work so many hours.

Anyway, I don't want to be harsh with you. There are many who would agree with you on this board. There are also others who might have a problem with what appears to be a dogmatic, rigid attitude, which does not often work IMO.

I'm glad your in recovery. Wish I was.

Shaken


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> Shaken but not stirred - this may well be one of those "hit and run" sort of posts since I "hang out" most of the time on the Recovery Forum. I had a little extra time this morning and surfed some of the other forums and your posting caught my eye.

First, I assume you are both Christians, from what you stated in one of your threads, but I have to admit to being amazed that neither one of you seems to be applying Christian principles of obedience to God in this mess. I sort of understand your wife not doing so, because that is part of the nature of fog of sin and adultery, but I am a bit surprised at your "doing it yourself" method of "handling things." Your efforts, in your own power, have been dismal.

Lest you think I being overly harsh, let me simply say that I am speaking from experience, the experience of a Christian WW in an affair for 6 years before 'lil 'ol dunderhead me woke up and faced the fact that not only was it "possible," it was in fact true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear Star*fish, Believer and whoever else cares to respond:

I am feeling that there is only one reason to implement Plan B: It is for me. It can't be for any other reason because the facts as I know them are as follows:

- WS is completely out of love with me. I have not heard ILY in about 4 years, and I know wife has not loved me for about 2 years </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know this one, for me it was 6 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - WS admits, quite proudly in fact, that she is now on birth control. She is either already in the midst of a sexual relationship with someone else or is about to embark on one.

- WS has no desire, nor interest, to work on the marriage or even to consider reconciliation. She has made this clear many times

- WS has already moved on with her life. I am now officially in her past, even though we are still married.

- WS has simply not allowed me to meet any of her ENs for 17 months now. The only needs she wants me to meet relate to my involvement with our 4 children, and financial needs that she has.

- WS leads a secretive life. She has abandoned all but one of her established friends, and no longer has much of anything to do with her older set of friends.

- WS has no contact with my family, except my sister, who she sometimes runs into because they live somewhat near each other, our sons are on the same soccer team, they run into each other at kids' school functions or grocery store, etc.

- WS has given up attending church

- WS has no remorse or regret that she has given up on the marriage

- WS is a good dancer and goes to nightclubs on a weekly basis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL of this screams loudly, that despite your refusal to face reality, your wife has been involved in an affair for a long time. You continue to deny, and make excuses, for your wife's behavior, but it doesn't change the fact that there is virtually NO chance that she has not been involved in an affair for a long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as I am concerned, there is only one positive thing in our relationship. That is, WS wants and desires me to have as much of a relationship with our children as is possible under the circunstances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife's "wants and desires" notwithstanding, this part has little to do with her. It is YOUR responsibility as the father to your children and as the "head of the household" role that God has assigned to you. Your "duty" is to God and to your children, not to your wife, in this area.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, having said all this, is there even the remotest possibility that Plan B will even work?

I seriously doubt it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With God, all things are possible. But I have seen precious little in all that you have posted to date that leads me to believe that it will work. The reason is that you are not being obedient to God yourself.

It may be "too late," but with God things are never too late.

First point: It should never have been YOU to leave the house, and it shouldn't be so now. It is time for you shoulder your responsibility to your children and move home. If your wife doesn't like that (and I doubt she will) then she goes. SHE is the one seeking to destroy the marriage through an affair, and you must protect yourself, the children, the household finances, etc. from the determined actions of someone willfully locked in a battle against God and the marital covenant.

God is quite clear, despite her self-delusional arguments....unrepentant adulterers (or adulteresses) will NOT be in heaven. She is risking far more than just you and the children.

You really have little understanding of "Tough Love" concepts, but you need to know them and be ready to implement them.

This has gone on long enough. Either you take a firm stand FOR God, your family, and your marriage covenant, OR you get a divorce and "move on." Divorce should be the last resort, but God does "sanction" it for the Betrayed Spouse when there has been marital unfaithfulness.

If you want, I can email you a pamphlet that was very helpful in helping my wife and I to take the steps necessary to begin recovery and to learn to "re-love" each other. Keep in mind, in my case, my wife had her own secret apartment, had the divorce papers already drawn up, had "accepted" a marriage proposal from the heathen OM, had her own bank accounts, etc. - - - in short, the marriage was over in her mind while I was the "unsuspecting" gullible fool of a spouse.

If you want to talk more, or get any of the materials that I have, please drop me a note on the Recovery Forum. I may check back in here, but it's sporadic at best.

Summary....my wife and I are now almost 21 months into recovery and doing very well. We've both learned a lot and changed a lot. But the bottom line has been a willingness on both of our parts to try to be obedient to God's commands regardless of how we might be "feeling" on any given day.

God bless. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

One more thing, ForeverHers:

I am perplexed by your words below. Reading them makes me think you have not taken the necessary time to read some of my recent posts.

"refusal to face reality"? I have not only faced the reality of my wife's affair, I have sternly confronted her twice, the last time giving her so much solid evidence that she did not know how to respond. For you to say that I am denying this and also making excuses for her behaviour is quite hurtful, to be honest. I probably have not been as firm as you, but I told her she should be ashamed of herself and that she is both deceived and blind.

Nobody is making excuses for her except herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL of this screams loudly, that despite your refusal to face reality, your wife has been involved in an affair for a long time. You continue to deny, and make excuses, for your wife's behavior, but it doesn't change the fact that there is virtually NO chance that she has not been involved in an affair for a long time.

Shaken but not stirred - Okay, did it feel better to lash out at me? I hope so because the pressure cooker needs a little release now and then. I also don't take offense and I also don't care a whole lot about your "defense" statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My father was an internationally-known pastor and Christian conference speaker; I grew up in the conservative Christian church and was a leader in the church until my marriage troubles convicted me to step back. By virtue of the fact that I have done everything in my power to win my wife back, have involved the church leadership to watch me so I can be above reproach, and have sacrificed nearly everything for my wife in the past 17 months, I am really not in a position to be told how I am not applying Christian principles of obedience to my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, I know, it sounds a bit harsh again, but hear me out. I am thrilled that you are a Christian, but family history and what you've "done" in church has little bearing on what I am trying to say, or your misunderstanding of what I am saying either.

What I AM interested in hearing is how you are personally being humbly submissive to God and to simple obedience of His commands, for husbands in specific, and Christians in general. God leaves very little "wiggle room," and pedigree and "works" are not among the areas of "wiggle." So what I am talking about is, how are you being obedient to God's commands REGARDLESS of how you are feeling?

I DO NOT understand (yes, I have gone back and reread most of your posts) what happened 17 months ago that set up your current situation. I DO NOT know what caused a supposed Christian woman to "fall out of love" with her husband enough to ask him to move out and to tell him that she feels as if they are no longer married. There is just too much background that is missing. Background that is needed to try to make some sense of where you find yourself today and to, perhaps, offer some suggestions that might help you save your marriage. I AM assuming that is why you post.

As near as I can find out from reading your postings the "only" evidence you have to date of your wife being in an affair is her contraceptives and your sister's observation of her car at a friends house. Suspicious? Yes. Definitive proof of an affair? No. I strongly suspect that there has been one ongoing for some time (at least the EA variety if not also a PA), but you have not "raised suspicion to the level of proof" yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She finally admitted using the contraceptives just in case she wants to get into a relationship. She said we are no longer married in her eyes and she is doing nothing wrong. This from a supposedly Christian woman who is supposed to know right from wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement, "She said we are no longer married in her eyes and she is doing nothing wrong," raises many questions about WHY she feels that way (not the least of which leads me to surmise that she has been in an EA an is contemplating upping the "ante" to a PA).

She may well feel that you are no longer married, but why? What went on before your leaving the house, before the beginning of the 17 months that you talk about, that may have contributed to this statement? As for her statement that she is "doing nothing wrong", I would only offer my observation that it sure appears that she is behaving in disobedience to God's commands to wives at the very least.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to say I handled it in the best sense, but I didn't. I LB'd all over the place, said she is deceived and blind and should be ashamed of herself. I then told her that I no longer want to talk to her, given her attitude. You can lambaste me for this, but before I hung up I said I hope she is practising safe sex for the sake of our children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your emotional turmoil. Consider it a "been there, felt that" sort of thing. But "lambasting" aside, what you did was hardly handling things in a "Christ-like" manner. Yes, your statements to her were full of disrespectful judgments. But the worst was telling her that you no longer wanted to talk to her. I fail to see how what you did will serve to "bring her to her senses." It would appear to drive her further away, if that is possible. Imagine Christ telling His "bride" that He no longer wanted to talk to us because we had "sinned again." Imagine Job taking his friend's advice.

Regardless, I understand your emotional turmoil.
There IS hope that remains, but it begins with obedience to God. It begins with you being the spiritual leader in your home and by leading by example. I'd like to send you a pamphlet called "What do you do when your Marriage goes sour?" if you'd like it. If you do, send me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I will email it back to you. It might be something that could provide a helpful beginning.

While we are at it, have you and your wife had any Christian marital counseling over the course of time that this mess was brewing and/or spilling over?

In the meantime, let me assure you that I am glad that you said, "My bible says "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church". My bible says "honour your wives as the weaker vessell". My bible says "cleanse your wife with washing of the word". I can say before God I have and continue to do all of this."

Believe it or not, "my" Bible says the same thing. It also says that the husband is responsible for love in the home and if it's not there, it is the husband's responsibility. "I can say before God I have and continue to do all of this." I reserve comment on this without knowing more about the nature of your marriage leading up to the start of the "17 month timeframe" that you mention for your current problems.

But I will comment that your Love Busting comments to your wife, followed by your statement that you no longer want to talk to her seem to be your emotions getting the "better" of you and were not an example of Christian love for another, let alone for your covenant wife.

No matter what the eventual outcome for your marriage, I want you to know that God is interested in helping you. He is also interested in your humble obedience to His commands whether you are "feeling like it or not." Before God can work on your marriage, He wants you to surrender you will, wants, and desires, to His will as Lord of your life. God does not promise "happiness" and "happy outcomes." But He does promise that He can work all things for good for those who love Him and obey Him.

I also will offer you my first two threads here on MB if you are interested in reading them. I considered my marriage over. I can also attest to God's miraculous intervention when all I could muster was a "faith as small as a mustard seed."

God is in the business of doing the impossible. He just waits for us to get ourselves out of the way and let Him have the reins of control.

God bless. May He grant you comfort and wisdom during these dark days of the valley. Reach out, take His hand, and let Him lead.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Foreverhers-

Don't want to threadjack here, but I have a comment. I am the BS, and have always been a godly woman. Even my WH will attest to that. I have been submissive to him. However that just got me where I am now.

No I am not perfect and have many things that I am working on. However I really believe that Satan- not God has been brought into our relationship by my WH.

I would like your comment on this. I think our problem started with me following my H. He has childhood issues, and spends money like it is water. I never said anything to him, treating him as the leader. We got into horrible debt. I continued trying to support him and be a help-mate. He continued to spend.

Finally we got to the point where we could not pay our bills. He left for the OW. He took his check, has given me no money for a year.

So I guess my question is - Can one spouse be living a life in accordance to the Lord's commands, and can Satan enter the marriage through the other spouse?

Hi believer:

I very much believe that we can't save our spouses, no matter what our Christian walk is like. We can be examples to them, we can pray for them, we can attempt to share with them - but they have to make the decision on their own. They have to decide to obey. They have to decide of their own free will to let God's Spirit work in their lives.

From what you have said about your husband, and from what I can see from my wife, I would have to say that they both have made conscious decisions to live their lives independent of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I am sorry you haven't received any help from your WS. If he has abandoned you and his family to debt and is not providing for you, the Bible calls him an infidel. This is tragic, and this is the reason I have been such a spineless wimp with my wife - I would rather live in a cardboard box than deprive my children of what they need.

Hope this at least partially gives you some insight from my warped perspective.

God bless.

Shaken

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Foreverhers-

I have been submissive to him. However that just got me where I am now.

So I guess my question is - Can one spouse be living a life in accordance to the Lord's commands, and can Satan enter the marriage through the other spouse? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

ForeverHers:

Yes, I admit it felt good to lash out - at least at first. Yes, I did mean what I said to you in my last post, but I confess I got much more out of your latest post and appreciate it very much.

I would also appreciate you e-mailing me the pamphlet, and I would like to read your first two posts. My e-mail is rgprice@coastnet.com

Thanks.

ps I will read your latest again and respond more fully shortly. You made some very good points.

Shaken

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> Shaken but not stirred - Okay, did it feel better to lash out at me? I hope so because the pressure cooker needs a little release now and then. I also don't take offense and I also don't care a whole lot about your "defense" statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My father was an internationally-known pastor and Christian conference speaker; I grew up in the conservative Christian church and was a leader in the church until my marriage troubles convicted me to step back. By virtue of the fact that I have done everything in my power to win my wife back, have involved the church leadership to watch me so I can be above reproach, and have sacrificed nearly everything for my wife in the past 17 months, I am really not in a position to be told how I am not applying Christian principles of obedience to my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, I know, it sounds a bit harsh again, but hear me out. I am thrilled that you are a Christian, but family history and what you've "done" in church has little bearing on what I am trying to say, or your misunderstanding of what I am saying either.

What I AM interested in hearing is how you are personally being humbly submissive to God and to simple obedience of His commands, for husbands in specific, and Christians in general. God leaves very little "wiggle room," and pedigree and "works" are not among the areas of "wiggle." So what I am talking about is, how are you being obedient to God's commands REGARDLESS of how you are feeling?

I DO NOT understand (yes, I have gone back and reread most of your posts) what happened 17 months ago that set up your current situation. I DO NOT know what caused a supposed Christian woman to "fall out of love" with her husband enough to ask him to move out and to tell him that she feels as if they are no longer married. There is just too much background that is missing. Background that is needed to try to make some sense of where you find yourself today and to, perhaps, offer some suggestions that might help you save your marriage. I AM assuming that is why you post.

As near as I can find out from reading your postings the "only" evidence you have to date of your wife being in an affair is her contraceptives and your sister's observation of her car at a friends house. Suspicious? Yes. Definitive proof of an affair? No. I strongly suspect that there has been one ongoing for some time (at least the EA variety if not also a PA), but you have not "raised suspicion to the level of proof" yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She finally admitted using the contraceptives just in case she wants to get into a relationship. She said we are no longer married in her eyes and she is doing nothing wrong. This from a supposedly Christian woman who is supposed to know right from wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement, "She said we are no longer married in her eyes and she is doing nothing wrong," raises many questions about WHY she feels that way (not the least of which leads me to surmise that she has been in an EA an is contemplating upping the "ante" to a PA).

She may well feel that you are no longer married, but why? What went on before your leaving the house, before the beginning of the 17 months that you talk about, that may have contributed to this statement? As for her statement that she is "doing nothing wrong", I would only offer my observation that it sure appears that she is behaving in disobedience to God's commands to wives at the very least.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to say I handled it in the best sense, but I didn't. I LB'd all over the place, said she is deceived and blind and should be ashamed of herself. I then told her that I no longer want to talk to her, given her attitude. You can lambaste me for this, but before I hung up I said I hope she is practising safe sex for the sake of our children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your emotional turmoil. Consider it a "been there, felt that" sort of thing. But "lambasting" aside, what you did was hardly handling things in a "Christ-like" manner. Yes, your statements to her were full of disrespectful judgments. But the worst was telling her that you no longer wanted to talk to her. I fail to see how what you did will serve to "bring her to her senses." It would appear to drive her further away, if that is possible. Imagine Christ telling His "bride" that He no longer wanted to talk to us because we had "sinned again." Imagine Job taking his friend's advice.

Regardless, I understand your emotional turmoil.
There IS hope that remains, but it begins with obedience to God. It begins with you being the spiritual leader in your home and by leading by example. I'd like to send you a pamphlet called "What do you do when your Marriage goes sour?" if you'd like it. If you do, send me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I will email it back to you. It might be something that could provide a helpful beginning.

While we are at it, have you and your wife had any Christian marital counseling over the course of time that this mess was brewing and/or spilling over?

In the meantime, let me assure you that I am glad that you said, "My bible says "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church". My bible says "honour your wives as the weaker vessell". My bible says "cleanse your wife with washing of the word". I can say before God I have and continue to do all of this."

Believe it or not, "my" Bible says the same thing. It also says that the husband is responsible for love in the home and if it's not there, it is the husband's responsibility. "I can say before God I have and continue to do all of this." I reserve comment on this without knowing more about the nature of your marriage leading up to the start of the "17 month timeframe" that you mention for your current problems.

But I will comment that your Love Busting comments to your wife, followed by your statement that you no longer want to talk to her seem to be your emotions getting the "better" of you and were not an example of Christian love for another, let alone for your covenant wife.

No matter what the eventual outcome for your marriage, I want you to know that God is interested in helping you. He is also interested in your humble obedience to His commands whether you are "feeling like it or not." Before God can work on your marriage, He wants you to surrender you will, wants, and desires, to His will as Lord of your life. God does not promise "happiness" and "happy outcomes." But He does promise that He can work all things for good for those who love Him and obey Him.

I also will offer you my first two threads here on MB if you are interested in reading them. I considered my marriage over. I can also attest to God's miraculous intervention when all I could muster was a "faith as small as a mustard seed."

God is in the business of doing the impossible. He just waits for us to get ourselves out of the way and let Him have the reins of control.

God bless. May He grant you comfort and wisdom during these dark days of the valley. Reach out, take His hand, and let Him lead. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I guess my question is - Can one spouse be living a life in accordance to the Lord's commands, and can Satan enter the marriage through the other spouse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">believer - Yes, of course Satan can use and exploit any weakness. You have to remember that Satan's number one goal is to separate us from God, if that is possible, and to harm or destroy our witness to others. He targets Christians especially hard. Why? Because the "others" are already in his pocket. Remember, too, that Satan is "god of this world." For whatever reason (and I suspect it has a lot to with things like the "Wheat and the Tares") God allows him to contiue. Satan will tempt anyone and everyone. Don't forget that Satan did his "level best" to tempt even Jesus Christ. No one is above or beyond his efforts to get us to sin and to try to doubt God. Lastly, remember that Satan DID enter a perfect and godly marriage through tempting one spouse with lies that "sounded good and reasonable." From that came Adam and Eve, the first human sinners, and then the rest of us.

When this sort of thing happens, Satan also knows that we are all "fallen" at the core and are subject to all of our God-given emotions, both the positive and the negative ones. He knows the strength of emotions and how they can lead us into sin, and especially for the faithful Christian spouse, into fear and anger and distrust. It is very easy, natural in fact, for even the "faithful spouse" to fall into sinful behavior as the torrent of emotions flood through us. Take anger as and example. We are "right" to be angry about the sin of adultery. It is a gross sin that is specifically forbidden by God as one of the 10 Commandments and lies at the heart of God's pain over his creation.

But God also tells us that while our righteous anger over the sin is "okay, right, and justified," we have to be careful to "be angry, but do not sin" in response. God knows the power of this "doorway" to sin that Satan uses. It helps in controlling our anger if we remember that what we are angry about is SIN against God and not the sinner per se. Yes, the sin is also against us and our covenant, but first and foremost it is directed against God, who is (hopefully) our spouse's Lord and Savior also.

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am the BS, and have always been a godly woman. Even my WH will attest to that. I have been submissive to him. However that just got me where I am now.

No I am not perfect and have many things that I am working on. However I really believe that Satan- not God has been brought into our relationship by my WH.

I would like your comment on this. I think our problem started with me following my H. He has childhood issues, and spends money like it is water. I never said anything to him, treating him as the leader. We got into horrible debt. I continued trying to support him and be a help-mate. He continued to spend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">believer - let me also make a brief comment on this idea of "submission" that you seem to have. Understand that according to God's design of marriage, husband and wife are "completers" of each other. They are equals. They each have strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the marriage alter.

Marriage is NOT a "master/slave" relationship, it is an equal partnership, a "one flesh", a "hand-in-hand, side-by-side" meeting of the challenges of life together.

The submission you speak of is tied to the "roles" of husbands and wives. The husband has been established by God as the spiritual head of the household. But sinful behavior is NOT something that God wants you to be "submissive" to. Your FIRST duty is to be submissive to God as your Lord and to follow His commands. You CHOOSE to submit to your husband insofaras he is walking in obedience to God. It is NOT your responsibility, or requirement, that you submit to him if he is practicing sinful behavior in opposition to God's will and God's role for husband's in a marriage.

The reality is that both husband and wife submit to each other in many areas. There are many things that my is "better at" than I am, and I defer to her expertise in those area. But I cannot abdicate my responsibility to God either. So in matters assigned by God to the "husband" I have to step up to the plate even if I don't "feel like it." It's not an option, it's a command by God.

Husband's and wive's are to be the "helpmeet" of each other. They are to be one in flesh, one in spirit, one in putting God first in their lives. It has nothing to do with a "superior/inferior" position. If it were so, God would never have created Eve in the first place. Adam would have been "self-sufficient" as he was. But Eve was not created to be Adam's slave. She was created to fill a gap in him and to complete him.

God bless.

Shaken but not stirred - Let add a word of caution here. Reading posts about other's pain and struggle can be easily internalized and cause more pain for the reader. So please, if reading these threads causes you pain or depression, remember that it was MY journey and not yours. Remember that while I thought things were hopeless, God did not. Remember that God needed to reach me first before He could reach my wife. Remember that none of us is without sin.

I will send you the pamphlet by email and post the thread links here. In addition, there are several threads on the Recovery forum that you might find helpful also. I'll post them also in case you have a voracious reading appetite like I did when I first started here.

First timer - help needed

Miracles happen when you are obedient to God

Forgive? Trust? Really? Has anything been learned in the past year?

Timely story for days when things seem bleak.

The last thing that I want to throw out to you is that God has established marital unfaithfulness as a "legitmate" reason for divorce the "protects" you from potentially sinning on your own. God is also a God of Peace. Understand, also, that divorce is a last resort thing. God hates divorce, but He does allow it for the faithful spouse if faced with and an unrepentant and willfully sinning spouse. It can be thought of as "if the unbelieving spouse leaves, let them." There are limits to what God asks you to endure and they begin with you sinning through your actions. That is one reason why God allows divorce and the ending of the covenant in some cases...to protect YOU from sinning.

God bless. I will send you the pamphlet via email.

foreverhers -

Well said. I don't even want to go into how close I have come to lots of sinning. My walk with the Lord is suffering some huge blows right now.

shaken - yikes, we seem to have hijacked your thread. What is up with the letter?

Thanks, foreverhers, for the threads you posted and for your comments. I still haven't had the time to digest them the way I want to - will do so.

Believer:

I have not written the letter. First of all, I have not received any advice on this matter. This is okay, because I have come to the peaceful conclusion in the past 10 days that I no longer love my wife. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I love her as a person (i.e. don't wish to see her hurt or in pain), and I love her as our children's mother. As a wife, however, I can honestly say I no longer have feelings for her.

Given that one of the ultimate purposes of a Plan B letter is to retain the little love one has left for his/her spouse, I no longer see the need for a letter.

Love is a decision and a choice; it is not a feeling. I kept loving my wife for months even when the feelings were not there. Unfortunately, the decision has now followed the feelings. I have no desire to have someone like my WS in my life. It hurts too much.

Shaken

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> foreverhers -

Well said. I don't even want to go into how close I have come to lots of sinning. My walk with the Lord is suffering some huge blows right now.

shaken - yikes, we seem to have hijacked your thread. What is up with the letter? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Shaken -

The good part is that once you detach, you will feel better. But you still have to work through the pain, whether you have a relationship or not.

I still suggest that you go into Plan B. It is very comfortable and protects you. I even have good memories of our marriage from time to time.

I would still write MIL and let her know your feelings. But don't be too surprised if your wife has already rewritten the history of your relationship for your MIL. Also most in-laws side with their child.

You're right, believer. I have felt so much better over the past 1-2 weeks. This is the first time I have really detatched. It is liberating.

A number of events over the past few days have made me reconsider writing to my MIL, and I will be doing so this week.

On Friday night, my sister was driving by WS's house (the house I am paying the mortgage on - MY HOUSE!) and saw the Black Honda Accord wife had denied knowing about on Valentine's weekend when it and wife's/our van was parked at wife's friend's house all night. Accord was parked direftly across the street (talk about a bad hiding job). I had asked my sister to take a drive by because WS had told me that she wasn't going to go out dancing in the city like she does every Friday night.

I knew something was up, so was not at all surprised when my sister called me at 10:00 p.m. Friday night to tell me car was there. I drove by early the next morning on the way to take the children to their soccer games and the car was still there. Anyway, I left my business card under the windshield wipers and wrote "I KNOW!" on the back of the card. I drove off.

My kids noticed that I had "done something to the car", and asked me about it. It took everything I had not to say anything. My kids do not know that their mother is sleeping with someone else, but my oldest (s11) told his aunt that morning that "something weird is happening at my house".

What really saddens me is that WS never even showed up for soccer. Any other year she would never have missed one game. Now she doesn't care. Son was devastated.

WS then had the gall to leave voice message later Saturday morning saying she could not get to soccer because she "was throwing up all night, but am feeling a little better now". My wife has become a pathological liar. It angers me that she would bring OM into MY HOUSE, INTO OUR MARITAL BEDROOM, and ONTO THE BED WE BOUGHT WITH GIFT MONEY FROM MY PARENTS.

I have changed my mind. This week I am writing my MIL a very long letter. I am going to spill my heart to her. I have had it. I will confront to MIL because she knows nothing about what has been going on. I have decided I want a divorce, but never wanted to do it without proper grounds (I am a Bible-believing Christian and proper grounds for me include adultery and very little else).

I love MIL. She and I have had an excellent relationship. She will always be MIL in my mind, but I am moving on. I no longer care what the fallout is, as I know MIL will share the letter with my WS (WS and oldest son are visting MIL and step-FIL) later this week. I want the letter to arrive right in the middle of the trip.

I now know everything. WS has now proven that she cares little for our children, putting her lover's interests first. What if kids had walked into the house Saturday morning? What if they had seen the OM there? I am just livid. I really want nothing to do with her anymore. WS has taught me two things over past 18 months:

1. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. She simply does not care, and it shows.

2. Nothing is worse than staying in a relationship where one party does not care. I am not staying.

I am seriously fighting for full custody of all 4 of them. She can freeze in the dark.

Doubt a Plan B letter would work, but I will consider writing one too. I no longer love her, but couldn't make things worse.

Shaken

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Shaken -

The good part is that once you detach, you will feel better. But you still have to work through the pain, whether you have a relationship or not.

I still suggest that you go into Plan B. It is very comfortable and protects you. I even have good memories of our marriage from time to time.

I would still write MIL and let her know your feelings. But don't be too surprised if your wife has already rewritten the history of your relationship for your MIL. Also most in-laws side with their child. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Good job shaken. Your wife is just like all of the rest, they go temporarily insane. They don't care about their kids, their family, nothing - nothing but their fix. It is very easy to lose all respect for them.

Also if you plan to get custody, take pictures of his car at your house.

Well, I wrote a 7-page typed letter to MIL. I am just tidying it up, sharing it with 2-3 people, and sleeping on it before I mail it tomorrow.

MIL should receive it 1-2 days after WS arrives at MIL's house for some R&R.

I feel a certain liberation, though I expect some fireworks after I pick up WS from the airport after her trip.

I will post the letter in its entirety tomorrow.
Scared but feeling good.

Shaken

Sounds good. Let us know tomorrow.