Dear Awed

I remember reading an old thread of yours about detaching. I desperately need it. Can you help?

Thanks so much

MK

Hi MK,

First off, let me apologize. You asked me to respond to another thread of yours before...I did drop in but thought the advice you'd been given was excellent, and truly I had nothing to add. Plus, sometimes it seems to me it is better when someone "talks" to you that has been through a similar kind of infidelity, and I noticed you did have those kinds of posters (or at least one).

Sorry to hear things are not going well for you but detachment will help...okay: here's the thread...

emotional detachment

This exercise helped me a lot, to see where I needed to focus my detachment efforts...if you have any questions, let me know. I'm not around a whole lot because of work these days, but I do pop in to check on some of the ongoing threads...just leave a "message" here...

Remember: we are all rooting for you! Here in cyber-space...it is a rough and tough journey...look after yourself, #1...awed

Dear Awed

Thanks for the link. I've printed it off and will get a notebook and get started. I hope this will help me. I've stayed with my H about 16 months now after a 3 month separation.

I wonder if we'll get through this. After another sleepless night I'm exhausted. I don't know why we're still together except for our kids.

Thanks

MK

Sleepless nights after 16 months is a hard thing to contemplate...hope the exercises give you some insight into where you need to let go...how are you doing on the external focus? What are you doing?

awed

Dear Awed

I don't understand what you mean by "external focus".

What am I doing? Existing.

I've been trying to rebuild my marriage. There is so much to say and it's frustrating for me to type all this.

Last night my H and I had an arguement. I "snooped" and found something questionable. He's quite good with his lies or perhaps it was legit. I can't tell anymore. I find small things that lead to me believe he's not being faithful. But no smoking gun.

We make a good team. We have a great sex life. But last night I discussed with him again my need for affection not just sex. I told him how I wanted him to kiss me occasionally and give me hugs. I told him I want him to initiate it not just me. His reply to kissing me was "I don't want to". I really thought that over time his love for me would return. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself.

I want to detach from him. I want to not care that he doesn't have those "in love" feelings for me.

I'm planning to stay here until we move back to the US in Jun 2005. I don't want to separate him from our children and I'm not totally ready to throw in the towel. If I leave now, I don't see any chance of us making it. I'm taking classes to help we get a job when we return to the US. I'm trying to mentally prepare myself for ending my 20 year marriage.

How do I live in the same house with the man I love who doesn't return those same feelings for me?

Is today Monday? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MK

Hi MK,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't understand what you mean by "external focus". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you doing for yourself outside of the M? What activities are you engaged in? What support networks -- and I am not talking about support for the M -- do you have? Friends that you do NOT talk about the A or M with? Clubs? Volunteer activities?

All of these things are CRUCIAL to your survival. (Not to be melodramatic or anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) Seriously though, crucial to your M efforts as well.

After I read your response here, I went and found another thread of yours and have some observations if you want them.

You may know, I post long-winded responses though and time is really tight for me right now. If you want my input, tell me and I'll give it to you. Otherwise, I'll save my time...

I'm not normally so brutally blunt with someone but it really is a time-crunch for me at this time of year so I don't want to waste my effort if you don't want to hear it.

I'll give you a bit of feedback here so you can get a flavour for what I would tell you...

Point is, I think there are things you could be doing differently to help YOU. You are my only focus here, as with everyone else. You are here, you are seeking to find a better emotional place for yourself, while trying to save your M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What am I doing? Existing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I mean...I'd like to see you do a whole lot more than this MK...a whole lot more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really thought that over time his love for me would return. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perahps. Or perhaps you could do things differently yourself, take a different perspective for yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to detach from him. I want to not care that he doesn't have those "in love" feelings for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Instead try saying: I want to not be hurt or angry that he doesn't express those "in love" feelings for me. That will give you an idea of the approach I use...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm planning to stay here until we move back to the US in Jun 2005. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and I ask again, how do you want to live out the next 1.25 years? How do YOU want to live MK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do I live in the same house with the man I love who doesn't return those same feelings for me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How are you going to CHOOSE to live?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is today Monday? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly, today is now Wednesday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry for the delay in getting back to you...I hope at the very least, I've given you a bit to ponder. Perhaps make you mad even...that's a really good sign when you get mad because it means we've hit a nerve... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No matter what, you take care of yourself grrl...be kind to yourself...okay? awed

Dear Awed

Thanks for your response.

I wish I could say it was a kick in the pants. Perhaps tomorrow I'll feel better.

You're right. I've been reading a little on the "Divorce Busting" Board and decided that's an approach I should try.

I've tried meeting "his" needs for 16 months. It hasn't made a difference. In all honesty, I think he would have had his affairs no matter what.

Now it's time for me. If he realizes what he may be giving up, good for him. If not, I'm moving on. It's what I was advised to do by his entire family and mine.

It's so.......hard here. I don't speak the language. He's military and we're based at an extremely small American community. I'm working a few hours a week teaching English. I'm taking a class on line to help me get a job. It keeps me busy, but it is time I spend alone and my mind tends to wonder to the "what is he doing
now".

I go to the gym. I go for walks along the river. I don't have many friends here due to the language barrier and in all honesty due to my personality. I tend to have 1 or 2 close friends. My H has always been that friend and well now......?

I started a thread on Gen Questions II asking for recs on anti depressants. I've always said no way. But maybe I do need them. At this point I'm ready to try most anything to get myself out of this funk.

Thanks

MK

Awed

Forgot to add that I really do appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. I know how busy others can be and it does mean so much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sincerely

MK

Okay...I'll go look at your other thread (not the meds one) and see what it was that caught my eye...

Here are a few initial observations...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I started a thread on Gen Questions II asking for recs on anti depressants. I've always said no way. But maybe I do need them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps...I think you need an attitude adjustment! Something to feel positive about rather than masking the pain and hurt...just my opinion though, others here really support meds...remember though that they take some time to work...so let's see if we can do something in the next few weeks okay?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I go to the gym. I go for walks along the river. I don't have many friends here due to the language barrier and in all honesty due to my personality. I tend to have 1 or 2 close friends. My H has always been that friend and well now......? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sucks when your best friend isn't there for you during the worst crisis of your life huh??? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Tell me about your personality. What keeps you from making friends? Do you like meeting new people? If not, why not? How about casual interactions with people, does that perk you up? Or do you find it difficult?

How often do you go to the gym? How is it working for you? Do you feel better afterwards? Are you bulking up? (I hope to go soon!) Do you have rippling abs? If so, would you like to share them with me??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's so.......hard here. I don't speak the language. He's military and we're based at an extremely small American community. I'm working a few hours a week teaching English. I'm taking a class on line to help me get a job. It keeps me busy, but it is time I spend alone and my mind tends to wonder to the "what is he doing
now". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you loud and clear...isolation is truly hard on you right now, no wonder things are so hard...

what's the language barrier? Are there no local places where anyone speaks any English? Can you laugh and have a good time pointing and speaking in broken sentences? Do you have any interest in learning some the language so that you can get out more?

I know little about base life but suspect it is rather stifling, particularly in your scenario...

can you increase your time spent teaching? Is there other volunteer work you can do with people? Do you enjoy being with kids? Are there orphanages, hospitals, old folks homes...someplace with people that would light up at a smile or a touch or a squeeze...making other people happy is an absolute cure for you...it will lift your depression temporarily...

And that is what we are aiming for, a little bit at a time gradually adds up to feeling better...feeling better adds up to feeling great...which is recovery, with or without him...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've tried meeting "his" needs for 16 months. It hasn't made a difference. In all honesty, I think he would have had his affairs no matter what. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how are you meeting his needs? Why isn't it making a difference do you think?

I suspect you are quite correct...he likely would have. So knowing this, let's focus back on you again...what do you want to do? Or is that question too big for you right now?

Sometimes you cannot look at the big picture because it is overwhelming. That's okay...don't let it bother you, just stop thinking of it...think in small controlled bits to see what is possible...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now it's time for me. If he realizes what he may be giving up, good for him. If not, I'm moving on. It's what I was advised to do by his entire family and mine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes...I agree...but let's make it a bit more positive and less revenge-oriented...as a result of feeling better about yourself, you may well decide that the M is over...but truly do these things for you...

I want to post some more about this...you can follow the stuff I'm talking about to free too if you want...you need to change your perspective to you...as long as you keep it on him, it is not healthy for you...

this seems counterintuitive I know...love him but detach from him...not emotionally, but from the emotions associated with his behaviour and his actions...emotionally lean on yourself, teach yourself to be concerned with your own happiness...

hope this gives you a little something to feel better about...it's all positive MK...I think you can feel better by the time the meds kick in you know...awed

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed

Technical question....How do you do the quotes in the lines from another person's post? I'm not a computer wizard.

Thank you so much for taking the time and interest in me. I'm sure you are dealing with your own issues. Obviously you are rewarded by helping others.
----------------------------------------

Awed
Tell me about your personality. What keeps you from making friends? Do you like meeting new people? If not, why not? How about casual interactions with people, does that perk you up? Or do you find it difficult?

I've always been fairly quiet. I don't have a problem meeting people. I like talking with others. I make friends easily. I just don't feel the need to get out too much. I do things here with my H's coworkers wives. We go to lunch, sightsee. Most of them have small children so it's a little limited. I don't interact with coworkers because I work on my own. My interaction with my clients is only on a professional basis. So far I haven't gotten to be close with any of them. The German people are reserved and it takes a long time to be included in their social group. I have no control over the number of hours I work. I work based on the number of clients given to me.

Certainly I could make a better effort at socializing with other people. I could become more involved with my kids school again. I was always very involved with their school activities until we moved here, and I became so focused on "saving" my marriage. Initially I thought that I had neglected my H by focusing so much on our children. I now think we would have had this problem no matter what I did.

I could have asked to accompany(chaparone) my D's basketball team to a tournament this weekend in Amsterdam.

I haven't done these things because I've wanted to spend all my H's free time with him. Obviously that hasn't worked.
--------------------------------------------
Awed

How often do you go to the gym? How is it working for you? Do you feel better afterwards? Are you bulking up? (I hope to go soon!) Do you have rippling abs? If so, would you like to share them with me???

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You should see my abs!!! Not! I go about 5 days per week. But that can be depressing to. It's at my H's office complex and not many other people go. It's not like Gold's back in the US where there are a ton of other people. I feel better going. I'm in good shape.

------------------------------------------

Awed

how are you meeting his needs? Why isn't it making a difference do you think?

I think I am meeting his needs. He won't take the EN questionnaire. I know among his top needs are admiration and sex. The sex is well taken care of. I've been trying to do more to express my admiration.

I think it isn't working because of LBs. Example: Sunday night I discovered something "questionable". Yes, I snoop. I asked him about it because in my opinion I thought it might mean C with ow. Of course he denied it and was furious with me for going through his things. I was angry and asked him not to call me this week while he was away for work. He left Mon morning and gets back today. We talked a few times but just about paying a few bills. Him calling while away is an issue for me. I want him to call and he doesn't want to call so much.

So yesterday he didn't call all day. Now, I told him not to, and he didn't. Now, I'm mad that he didn't call.

So typically what happens is he will get home. My feelings are hurt and I have a difficult time putting on the <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> face. He asks why I'm "pissy". I say that I'm not. He can tell that I am. It's a vicious cycle that repeats over and over.

So no matter how many LU I've deposited previously, I blow it with my hurt feelings and "pissy" attitude.

I just want to "get a life" and really move on. Not pretend to him that I can live without him. I want to KNOW that I can. If it helps in a positive way for my marriage, Great. If not, I'll be happier.

You are completely right that I need to change my focus from him to me. Baby steps.

MK

MK...caught me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Yes I feel rewarded helping others! I've said before, if I can save someone else a minute of pain as a result of something I've said, it is worth it to me...I had to do a lot of learning to get where I am now, and it is my natural inclination to share knowledge with others...also, I've applied to grad school in conflict resolution so some of this is "field-work" for me...but don't feel like a rat in the lab! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I mean it in all good humour and love...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you do the quotes in the lines from another person's post? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are replying now, just below are "Instant UBB Code" buttons...one of them is for "quote"...just press the button and you'll see a begin "{quote}" and an end "{/quote}"...cut and paste your quote in-between those two commands and you're off to the races...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly I could make a better effort at socializing with other people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do it ...throw your heart and soul into it...like your life (or in this case, your sanity) depends on it...you need positive interaction from others...you need to find connections with other people...you need affirmation...

isolation is your enemy...brooding, internal conversations, etc....this does not mean you can't focus on your M but that your focus will take on a more positive tone...

the place I'd like you to get to is when a bad interaction leaves you shrugging your shoulders and saying: "HIS problem"...and heading about your day...not in anger, resentment or bitterness...just realistic...

he has his problems right? and it is up to him to solve them, not you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I became so focused on "saving" my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes...this is a problem for us all...the MB program itself makes us into obsessive thinkers...it's time to focus outward now...doesn't mean you are NOT trying to save your M...you are actually going to be doing the best thing you can in order to save your M...until you are happy within yourself, it is hard to see how the two of you can be happy together...

that is a simplification but true nevertheless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Initially I thought that I had neglected my H by focusing so much on our children. I now think we would have had this problem no matter what I did </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea whether or not this is true...but as I said yesterday, if you do, then I do...Dr. Harley says (as do many others in the field) that a huge percentage of men would have had A whether or not their needs were met...

so just accept this...and now you can relax...turn your attention away now, your focus away to yourself...it is not going to create another problem...yes, he may have another A...but MK: this is NOT your fault! Accept that too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I haven't done these things because I've wanted to spend all my H's free time with him. Obviously that hasn't worked. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me more about this...or direct me to where you talk about it elsewhere...I want to get a better feeling for this aspect...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel better going. I'm in good shape. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I am sure you know all about the good chemical changes that accompany a good solid workout...

ya know...I really want those rippling abs...how do you think we can best get them? wazoo...if you're going 5 days a week and don't have them yet, I guess I am outta luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it isn't working because of LBs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh MK...what can I say to convince you??? It is NOT going to work with LBs...it is that simple...pop over onto the latest page on jgnc's thread...I've gone into a fair bit of detail about how we are our own worst enemies...

with your current perspective, it is NOT going to work...I KNOW this...trust me on this one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

now having said that, even if you change, he may not! That is reality...until you can accept that as a FACT and LET GO, you are doomed to keep repeating the same story again...the same routines...the same dance (as I call it)...

MK: I am going to be tough on you here...you are not happy... your LBing is hurting YOU first and foremost...

Try the same exercise I suggested for freetobe: why are you doing the MB program? What are your reasons?

You need to accept your own choice to do this...do not resent your choice because it is not having the desired effect...you are the one driving your life, even though it does not feel that way to you at the moment...you are in charge and in control... decide to be happy MK ...make that choice for yourself...

I believe that once you truly do this, you can change your interactions with your H...as mentioned above, shrugging your shoulders and walking away...not in anger but because you KNOW you are doing your best and it is up to him to respond! If he chooses to continue being a horse's patootie...that's HIS choice!

the best revenge is living successfully...start your engines grrl!!! Start living YOUR life on YOUR terms...baby steps for sure...one after another...

this takes great deal of self-discipline, I am not going to pretend it does not...but hey? How's it working for you right now? Doesn't sound so hot to me way far away here in my little snowy isolation!

I too face a lot of isolation issues...I used to thrive on it...now it feels lonely...so I take little trips, just little interactions with folks at the store for example...I reach out more to people, break my sense of loneliness...not to talk about H and M, but to just interact with the world...I do things I want to do, things that make me feel good about myself...

and I do! I laugh, I smile...has nothing to do with H...he can stew in his misery until he decides to end it...do I have control over that? No way! Do I "like" it? Nope but not my problem...sometimes I'll listen, sometimes I won't -- I'll tell him that I've got other things to do and we'll talk later...sometimes I'll confront him with how I feel, if I feel his bad attitude IS directed at me personally...most of the time though, it is not...

I've changed my perspective you see...we are having the exact same interaction but I FEEL differently about it so I act differently...

I CHOOSE not to take it personally any more...that is my choice...that is my perspective...what a freeing thing to do for MYSELF...

just so happens that it helps the M too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So yesterday he didn't call all day. Now, I told him not to, and he didn't. Now, I'm mad that he didn't call.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Own up to this MK...do you see a problem with it? If so, what is it?

talk to me...tell me what you will do differently in the future? YOU are making YOURSELF miserable...why are you doing this? Is it becaue you WANT to be miserable?

This had nothing to do with H...does that piss you off when I say that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So typically what happens is he will get home. My feelings are hurt and I have a difficult time putting on the face. He asks why I'm "pissy". I say that I'm not. He can tell that I am. It's a vicious cycle that repeats over and over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here too, what's going on? You are lying to him but you expect him to be honest with you? But wait now, you don't believe that he's being honest with you so you are showing him by your actions that you think he is a liar?

And you are wondering why things are not improving between you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Again: this is meant to help you, by giving you an outside perspective...talk to me...tell me what's happening with you...why are you doing this?

DON'T WITHDRAW FROM ME...you need to own up to your actions too...do yourself the biggest favour in your life -- start being honest about the mistakes you are making and correct them...you WILL feel better about yourself...I absolutely promise you that...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are completely right that I need to change my focus from him to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">here's the tricky part...detach with LOVE...still be interested, still care, still show love, still be loving...just not obsessive, not focussing, not analyzing every action/reaction...yes, working on YOUR life, YOURSELF, YOUR actions/reactions...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just want to "get a life" and really move on. Not pretend to him that I can live without him. I want to KNOW that I can. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not so much moving on but moving forward...to take yourself out of neutral and drive the car in the direction you want to go!

There is nothing wrong with knowing that you can live without him...it does not mean that you will choose to do so...but if you KNOW you can, then fear will no longer be your driving force...you will be making conscious choices, ones that are not continually sabotaging what YOU want from life...

One last suggestion for you: I would strongly recommend the book "How One of You can Bring the Two of You Closer Together" by Susan Page...this is a book I have found extremely useful in terms of getting someone to re-orient their thinking vis-a-vis H...it is not about adultery at all...but it is about taking control of yourself and relinquishing any illusion of control over another...

it is very positive in terms of suggesting changes you can make that WILL affect your M...if you change the dance, your partner must also do so...there does not have to be any agreement on his part, it is simply that you are doing new moves on the dance floor!

Hope this helps and gets you forward planning...take care of yourself...I'm thinking of you and sending you positive thoughts...awed

Dear Awed

Wow!.............

Can I hire you as my mentor?

I'm going to have to go through this again with that fine toothed comb. Alas, children will be home from school soon and I'll be banished from the computer.

You've given me much to think about. I'll post in the morning. Right now I have to go and check out my new long, pink tail and my little white whiskers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks Awed you've put a smile on my face.

MK

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Dear Awed

My H got home yesterday afternoon. He came home first before going into work. He usually goes straight to work. I wasn't here like I usually am. I want to shake things up a little, not be so predictable. I was good. I didn't pout about him not calling. Didn't even mention it. Nothing but smiles and contentment.

We decided at the last minute to drive to Amsterdam for the weekend. I'm scrambling to pack and make hotel reservations. I'm not sure what to pack that will show off my long, pink mouse tail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, I sincerely want to respond to your post. I have issues that until I get a grip on them will keep us(well certainly me) from recovery.

I KNOW that my H's affairs (yes, plural)were not my fault. They were his choice. Did our marriage have a few problems? Of course, but nothing that big. I know I could have met his needs better. I just think he has this desire for "adventure" and it's something I cannot fill. I think he's got more than his fair share of testosterone. When God was passing that out he went back for seconds and thirds. I will have to accept that's the way he is and may never get it under control. At some point I will make the decision to stay or go. But for now, I will stay.

When I made the decision to join him here in Europe and attempt recovery, I said I had to know if we could make it. I still feel that if I left now, I would wonder what might have been.

My problem is I still get caught up with the mind games of "what is he doing" "Is he still in C with her" "Is he away for work, going to bars and picking up someone" "Is he online doing Who knows what" "Am I being taken for a ride once again"

I was with him here from Nov 02 to Oct 03 and lived through so...... many lies of his regarding calling her and actually seeing her a few times. I guess I can't (won't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) believe he's telling me the truth for a long time.

Awed, I want to post more on this. I'm not one to really journal. This may get me through.

I told him I wanted to visit the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam. He said that doesn't want to. I said fine. I'll go by myself. That's not something I'd ever do before. I want to go. If he doesn't that's okay. I'll go, enjoy it and he can do what he wants for a few hours.

I'll post again on Monday. Have a good weekend.

MK

Hi Awed

I wanted to get back to you before this fell off the page.

I've been doing much better. Not sure why. It's a rollercoaster. I'm sure the next dip is out there. Hopefully the hills will start to get further apart.

I've been working on my classes more. Making an effort to get out more. I'm planning 2 trips with friends (women) without my H.

I've contacted old friends that I've somewhat lost contact with since we've been here. Oh well, he'll just have to pay the phone bill. I've started doing small things on my own without him. Ex: Yesterday I'm sure he was expecting me to join him at the gym. I never showed. I went for a run along the river. It was a sunny day (rare) and lots of flowers in bloom. It made me feel better just to be out.

I received my copy of the Divorce Remedy. I plan on ordering the book you suggested after I read this one.

I'm really working on detaching. I know that only he can decide if he wants to be faithful and remain married. I'm working to improve myself if we do D. I know he's the one with the issues of guilt and his need for adventure. I can't fix that for him.

I think it would be great if my detaching makes him wonder what the H^** is going on and makes him pursue me a little. If not, I'll still be better off.

I'm trying to not be so clingy.

I know that you're busy now. Today is a good day. I'll enjoy it.

MK

MK:

Everything sounds great! How was the trip?

Listen...that detaching thing...it is good on both fronts, you know? Yeah...he'll either wonder and start to think about what he's losing, or he'll eventually lose you when you are ready to go...

powerful stuff...you keep up that great work...you sound better and THAT is the goal...

now: spring flowers...I'm pea green with envy! Actually, I've often thought of Gone with the Wind (that's a quote from it by the way)...Scarlett sitting on the stairs...after this big soppy years-long back'n'forth with her star-crossed H Rhett...(a lot of parallels with my H, push-pull, etc.)...and there she sits, her world collapsed...and she says: after all, tomorrow is another day...cut to sappy music...

I'll dispense with the sappy music but gee the sappy sentiment turns out to be right on! Tomorrow IS another day...let's just enjoy each day...hang in there you fighter you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...keep it all about you...awed

P.S. Just posted this on another thread but it fits so well with what I wrote above, I had to add it here too...it's from a long-time poster named sprezzatura...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> never say never. there are so many many things I NEVER thought I'd hear or see- good or bad from my H and everyday I am amazed. gotta quit saying never- hope is what we all have- you gotta hang on to it- breathe in and out- tomorrow is a new day. I have been waiting almost 2 years to hear "there is NOTHING wrong with you- its me- I F'ed it all up-relax- you are wonderful" and that came out of the clear blue with no questions from me- I was just staring out the window where I have said goodbye and waited for his return-everyday- for 24 years. I didn't even reply-he said it all. don't give up- CHOOSE what you want and work for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed

Knew that rollercoaster would take a dive.


My gut is screaming that he is still in C with ow or something else. Online a, porn, something. Or I could be totally wrong.

I have backed off and am not asking for affection. I don't stand at the door to kiss him goodbye in the mornings. If it weren't for sex we would hardly ever touch if I didn't make the attempt. I have stopped saying "I love you" just to see how long it would take for him to say it to me first. I'm still waiting.

H told me about 2 weeks ago that he isn't sure what he wants. One minute he wants to be here and the next he wants to be on his own. He can't live with me and he can't live without me. He isn't "in love" with me. He's tried to get those feelings back but they haven't returned.

I think it's because he's still in C with her or is doing something else.

Thanks

MK

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: marykat ]</small>

I just wanted to say that reading your this post has helped me tremendously as I was already thinking about moving forward with my life, working on getting my own place, etc. The detachment thing, not taking things personally. Trying to basically get a life. Last night was my 7 yo sons first soccer practice since we moved here and it felt good to get him back into things too.

Thanks for this post it has helped me alot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear dear MK!!! Hold on to yourself...hold on to your plan for YOU...this is NOT about him...try to turn this around...MAKE IT ABOUT YOU!!!

Mortarman can give you advice...I have no idea what to tell you that could possibly help with the specifics you are requesting...as I said originally, I am out of my depth in trying to give you any advice vis-a-vis serial cheaters, porn use etc.

What I can tell you, with good authority on a professional level, are tips on communication...how to improve it, how to look at things differently, how to re-frame messages.

What I can tell you, with good authority on a personal level, is how to change yourself, how to deal with anger, how to focus elsewhere, how to motivate yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Knew that rollercoaster would take a dive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes you did...but I think you forgot what you were going to do when it dived... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I do this it will be a huge LB for my H if I have to confront him with any info I might discover. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can you bear with a long, think-aloud ramble from me?

you see...I am torn on this issue...it is all about YOU and YOUR boundaries as far as I am concerned...if you are showing your H loving leadership, then you think about his needs but always within the context of your own...

this "doormat" thing is complex...you should feel like one to some extent...that is your taker screaming out that you are giving too much...

that's okay as long as you've decided to do this for YOU...

that's how I see things anyhow...

if you are doing it for him, then I think you need to consider the whole co-dependency thing, address your underlying fears, etc.

you should always be working on recovering the M because you think it is the right thing for YOU to do...

do you see my point? the difference between the two?

for example, if in the short-run (emphasis on SHORT), you think it is a better strategy to hold back on sharing information, then you do so within that context.

but if you need to discuss something, confront him with something, then you should do so...being honest -- DEPENDING ON HOW YOU HANDLE IT -- is not a LB...if he can't handle the consequences of his actions (ie. you telling him honestly how it makes you feel), tough luck for him!

actions = consequences...we are not here to protect them from the consequences of their actions...although we may be here trying to change the consequences of their actions...

for example, I used to yell at my H or pick a fight with him...he experienced consequences all right but it did not accomplish my goal...so I've changed...now I talk with him calmly about how his actions make me feel...he thinks about it and we either agree or disagree, etc.

certainly though, his actions still have consequences...and if you asked him, I'm sure he'd rather than we not discuss these issues! Then again, perhaps I am not being fair by saying that: the whole point of the discussion is that he has a chance to do things differently, create less conflict between us, we clear the air, he doesn't feel guilty because we've got an issue "hanging" between us...

actually, now that I think about it, maybe he does appreciate the benefits of these discussions although he is new in the learning process...

I've probably left you more confused than anything else...let me know if you want to discuss this issue further...

bottom line...silence on your part (unless temporary for a very good reason) is only likely to make things worse for both of you...

while I am in favour -- some may say way too much favour -- of accepting that the WS must make their own choices, in their own time, I do not believe that means you keep quiet...

I like to think of myself as the reality check...I keep things real in the midst of a heck of a lot of fantasy and foggy thinking...

but I don't judge, I don't get angry, I don't LB...I am honest, I remain calm and I share my feelings...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My detaching is helping. I think it may be not so beneficial to my M as I'm thinking more of divorcing H. I belive he is a seial cheater with no desire to change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">glad to hear the detaching is working...keep it up...

actually, it IS beneficial to your M...if you can face things calmly, without emotions driving your reactions, this absolutely helps your M...

of course you may decide to D...but you were thinking of it anyway...to do so in anger is NOT beneficial...to do so because you accept your H the way he is, accept the situation for what it is...that is a healthy decision-making process...

and by your actions, he might make different choices too...never never never forget this part of the equation...

the only knuckle-rap I'll give you here is for the last part...your belief is yours to have but do NOT make assumptions...re-learn this negative behaviour pattern and exorcise it from your life entirely if you can...(and I know you can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...

not just with your H but with everyone...we don't know what is going on inside someone else's head/heart and even if we are right (as I am most of the time because I "read" people very well), we are still WRONG some of the time which means we should just STOP doing it!

furthermore, belief is a very very strong influence in our lives...

let's use an example: I believe you are strong so I encourage you to take action in your life that I think you are capable of doing...because you hear my belief in you, you start to do things you didn't before because you believe that I know what I am talking about...because of our combined beliefs, you gain a whole lot of confidence which enables you to overcome your fear and leave your H...

our combined beliefs just ended your M!

okay, there's a whole lot more to it than that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...but you likely see my point...beliefs drive a lot of our actions/interactions...

another word for belief is perspective...one of my favorite sayings: life is 10% reality and 90% perspective...

so as long as you write/speak/think negative things, they are far more likely to come true in your life...there's no magic involved, just the fact that those negative beliefs will influence the actions you take which in turn cause reactions from others, etc. which fulfill your negative belief/perspective...

so please stay positive...even "at this point, I don't see any evidence of a desire to change" is a much better way to frame that sentiment you expressed above...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it's because he's still in C with her or is doing something else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are most likely right... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MK...have you tried talking to him about your concerns? How are your communications?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have backed off and am not asking for affection. I don't stand at the door to kiss him goodbye in the mornings. If it weren't for sex we would hardly ever touch if I didn't make the attempt. I have stopped saying "I love you" just to see how long it would take for him to say it to me first. I'm still waiting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well...again...detachment helps you provide a loving environment and not be hurt by what he does...it sounds as though you are being hurt by a lack of response from him...ergo, you are not detached enough...

this is so hard to explain clearly...bear with me again...write back and challenge what I am saying until you find a comfortable place for yourself!!!

here goes: stop "expecting" anything...don't do something if you are only doing it because of expectation of a particular outcome...

I am the first one to plead guilty to doing this too! I am not sermonizing, just trying to explain how you can get to a place of love without a whole lot of hurt attached to it...

if you can't, you need to Plan B...it is that simple...Plan B is to protect you when you cannot take the pain, when your LB is draining...

otherwise, you Plan A...you love as you can...if affection and SF are high on his list of needs, you fill them if you can...not if you are gagging and puking! but if you can do so with love...

somehow, don't ask me how, I never stopped feeling desire for my H...I would look at him with love, I would feel for the man inside the monster...I would think loving, wonderful thoughts of him...all that good stuff affected my libido...

when I could not give him SF during the height of the A (luckily he would not have SF with both of us), I still made small physical gestures of love...I ruffled his hair, I touched his shoulder in passing, I massaged his feet...

sometimes touch was an LB for him...I always respected his personal space...I did maintain the ritual kiss goodbye because I believed that one gesture kept him anchored in reality, anchored in "normal"...but I didn't find it repulsive to do or I would not have done it...sometimes, if I was really upset, I would not put myself in that place either but I'd always go back to it the next day...

I'm not saying you are wrong not to kiss him, just giving you my experience with the same issue...and how I found out what worked for ME...might be done for him but only if it made me feel good about ME...

mostly, the detachment worked for me...kept my love for him in the forefront...when it did not, I removed myself completely rather than ever LB him...

as for ILU, they are simply 3 little words...I'd just dispense with them altogether until they mean something to both of you...

for example, my H would say "I know" when I told him ILU...but I realized that he'd also refer to the crap between himself and OW as "love" when it resembled nothing like love on either part...okay, lovesick devotion on hers but even then, why did she constantly chase other guys if she was in love? certainly the way he treated her was never remotely like love...

so I stopped saying it to him...I decided that we weren't talking about the same thing so it meant nothing to him if I told him I loved him...I didn't need to tell him just to hear myself say it...I would whisper it to him at night when he was sleeping and vulnerable and it meant something important to me to say it...and if he told me he loved me, I knew it would be pro forma so I learned not to miss hearing it back from him too...

bottom line: set store by actions, not words...for now...

here's something I said to you before:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the place I'd like you to get to is when a bad interaction leaves you shrugging your shoulders and saying: "HIS problem"...and heading about your day...not in anger, resentment or bitterness...just realistic... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your choice to take this approach MK...I seem really hard don't I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> but you see, I was where you are now...and now I am not...by choice...MY choice...you can do it too MK...but you have to believe in yourself first...keep telling yourself you can do this...

if you need a break from him, you take it...but please STOP thinking in terms of punishment and testing...as in "I'll punish him by refusing affection and I'll test to see how long it takes him to notice!"

MK!!! He's sick...he's not healthy...don't follow him down the chaos path...choose your own healthy path...I kiss him because I want to kiss him...I don't kiss him because I do not want to kiss him...I choose to kiss him because I want to remind him of the bond between us...

the difference is all in the perspective...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At some point I will make the decision to stay or go. But for now, I will stay. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">patience my friend...don't put things in such absolutes...eventually this will become clear to you...you choose your own actions and get on with everything else in your life we've discussed...you make your own positives and think positively and then come back here in 3 months and tell me you still feel like crap because he's got a problem!!! Just won't happen!

you may well come back in 3 months and say: well, I did my best but he's stuck in the mud so I'm heading off on my own adventure...you may well say something like that...but you won't be angry and bitter and resentful and hateful about it...

we cannot change him...he's not here asking for help to change himself...

but you are...you are seeking a better, healthier way of life for yourself and your kids...

I'm going to step off my soapbox now...I hope I've given you some stuff to think about...quite apart from the technical stuff you need to do based on Mortarman's advice and career impacts, etc.

regardless of that stuff, keep on working on yourself and your perspective MK...I want to see you feel whole and happy again, sooner rather than later...a big cyber hug at ya...suppose it is evening there now...have a good sleep...awed

Dear Awed

Thank you so much for your detailed post. You really do make me think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> well...again...detachment helps you provide a loving environment and not be hurt by what he does...it sounds as though you are being hurt by a lack of response from him...ergo, you are not detached enough...

this is so hard to explain clearly...bear with me again...write back and challenge what I am saying until you find a comfortable place for yourself!!!

here goes: stop "expecting" anything...don't do something if you are only doing it because of expectation of a particular outcome...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my biggest problem. I need to just start living. I am hurt by a lack of response by him. I want him "in love" with me again. And I want it yesterday. It's so diffficult to let that go. Yet I know I have no control over it. If I am ever able to accept that, my life will not be so hard.

Last night H came in and we talked. I was awake most of the previous night obsessing over all this. H knew I was awake and knows when I do this it's because I'm stressed over us.

He called from work the next morning and wanted to talk about what was bothering me and I didn't want to discuss it with him. I felt why rehash the same issue. It doesn't accomplish anything.

Last night he came home from work ready to talk.

He told me in no uncertain terms that he is not in C with her. Hasn't been for several months. So he's done about 2/3 months of withdrawal But he still has a problem.

His "in love" feelings for me haven't returned yet. He's tried but they haven't come back. He still thinks about her constantly. What their life may have been. When we're doing something he thinks "What would it be like if I were doing this with her instead."

We talked easily with any LB. Quite calmly.

He says he's depressed. He obsesses over this practically all day. He has no answers and doesn't know what to do. He wishes we could go back 10 years with the new improved me. That is in reference to how I've started to better meet his needs.

My 2 top needs are honesty and affection. I've told him of these needs. The honesty, well only he knows if he's doing that. As far as the affection, I've asked that he kiss me and hug me. I'm not asking for this 24/7 and, I'm not talking tonsil sucking kisses. Just a nice kiss occassionally. Come up behind me while I'm washing dishes and hold me close.

He says he just doesn't want to. He doesn't feel it. I get the impression that it's not that he never thinks of doing it, it's that he doesn't want to do it.

I wonder if that's his way of expressing his anger at me for all the times in the past when I neglected that need of his. It's odd because affection is what he asked of me before all this and I just dismissed his need for it. Is it a way of holding on to her?

Awed, he knows that I post here. He's never read here that I know of. He asked what the folks here advised us to do. How does he get those feelings back for me. I'm thinking of starting a thread on GQII for him asking for people to give him advice.

I told him (he asked) that he needed to see someone for his depression. I advised reading some of the books I have. I advised coming here.

What do you think?

MK