Hi Awed18, Believer, Movingon and MBers,

Am not sure if this is too premature to post this but I just needed to share some good stories for you and maybe offer a bit of hope to all of us who's at the end of their rope. Last week, I posted here thinking that my partner or SO significant other is ready to move out and I was contemplating on moving on to Plan B. Lo and behold after some release of resentments, anger and frustration coupled with lots of loving and plenty of prayers, my WS told me yesterday when we were in line at the St. Joseph's table that he is falling in love with me again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And i sure hope he's not joking coz we were at a holy place and it would be the unthinkable if he was just lying but the beauty of it all is that he didn't know why he felt it again when a week ago because we were just fighting that he thought moving out and being on his own to clear his head is the only way for him to feel those special feelings for me again.
To me I think I've always believed that he wouldn't have proposed to marry me or lived with me for the last 5 years if he didn't care or love me and I knew it was just a matter of time before it would come back. And being on a good plan A yet readying for Plan B in case was my only strategy along with my "Buddy" above.
What brought it back? I let go and let GOD and start freeing myself of the anger, the pain and let myself love freely again no matter what...and the result? I can't believe that I will be back on this board to post a success story (i know it could be premature) because like everyone else I have no control anymore of his actions, feelings or the whole situation. To cut it short he was professing all his love for me the whole day and I pretended to be on first-date with him and it was indeed magical and a miracle that indeed it could happen again! Thank you for my inspirational friends esp. Awed who always keep me on the right track, and to the rest who with had lit my dark path with your responses.
I know there's still a long road and much depends on whether I will stick to the MB principles but to those doubters, please try it and ask a thousand of your friends and families to pray for you.
It's been an experience...2 months and 15 days since D-day.
BF
this is my link a week ago:
whentheymoveoutdoyougotoplanAorB

BF,

I am so happy to hear that the fog is clearing. Good for you!

I can only hope I am in your position in 5 weeks.

Keep it up, you are obviously doing the right things in your situation.

I hope to read about your success story soon, but at this point since D-Day you are already having some great success.

You've passed along some very encouraging words to those of us who need them.

Bless You and stay strong.

BrokenHubby

BF, congradulation! Keep up the good work and tell us the secret.

I've been here for almost 3 month. The fog only gets deeper. But like you, I have faith, I put all the work to GOD. Hopefuly some day I have good news to share too. Once again, good job done.

Listen...I am crazy busy right now but have been keeping an eye on you just in case!

This is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> The best news I could have tuned in for...

You deserve a light in the tunnel...and I am truly thrilled for you...I remember this feeling well...

that said, I do not want to rain on your parade but am going to give you a stern warning! Simply put, do NOT relax...remember recovery is HARD. You are in Plan A ongoing -- do you hear me???

this recovery stuff gets tough but if you can tough it out, it will pay big dividends...fog takes a long time to really clear...think 2 years okay???

relax...enjoy the fun...keep your interests elsewhere...keep meeting your needs through others as much as possible...only regain trust in him slowly...that a secret that will allow you keep on loving him despite any setbacks...and there will be...trust me on that one...

and most of all: YOU are now your worst enemy...monitor yourself closely for resentment...you must release resentment and anger or they will build and spill...

have you read that book I recommended yet? very very helpful!

You deserve the biggest high five I can give you over the internet grrl...you done REAL good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

keep it up...awed

P.S. Whisper in his ear that he is the most amazing partner...reward reward reward...you are so proud to be with him and of all the hard work he is doing...

lostnhurt,
Gee, i'm flattered that you ask me for secrets. Well the secrets are really listening to Awed - see her comments after yours! Isn't she amazing? If I could turn out to be like her then this would really be a success story! But everything that she told me I did almost to the letter so that is the secret. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BH,
Your time will come...this is one of my favorite sayings, "when everyone else had their time, I know my time will come..." and patience, diligence, clinging on to God no matter what the outcome is will give you the strength that you need at this point. Your wife can't give it to you, nor can you give it to yourself only God can so pray,pray,pray. You're already doing a great Plan A so just wait for what you sow. You will reap the rewards later! Mine just came in a bit earlier but like Awed said I will not relax coz there will be relapses both from his side and mine esp. resentments but it's best to be both honest and prepared for the eventuality that it will happen and you will have your love for each other to overcome it. Good luck and God bless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

and

Awed!!! my high fives to you!!!! you are my saviour girl!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I know I will be diligent not only with him but most importantly with myself. Just last night we we were watching "Fear Factor" and saw one of the contestants who resembled the OW and made some very nasty comments and all of a sudden there was anger in me and he caught me and told me "hey, why all the anger ?" , I said I don't know it just hit me and I apologized right away and he understood immediately why I reacted the way I did!" So it's not going to be easy and I was lucky that I have a man who truly is remorseful and understanding of what I went through...thank God for that dream of him being the BS!

So yes, my dear Awed, I am treading the water very slowly but still not afraid to show him my love and speaking of rewards, I've been very good at this Awed (exactly how you told me I've been doing it real good) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

so lostnhurt...this is one secret that you should try, when they do a good behaviour, always reward them by expressing to them how much you appreciate their actions...and boy it gets to them bigtime.

Releasing the anger and resentment is also a key but do not LB doing this as it is the only thing that will free you and keep those loving feelings open.

Keep praying my friends and thanks for all your listening ear and wisdom! Thanks for the efforts in writing me back Awed, it means a lot to me. Take care you all,
BF

Bf, thanks for your adive. I will lok up Awed's posts. Keep your good work.

Good to hear the news. Read all about "overcoming resentment" and reconciliation on the home page "quick clicks". They say recovery is very hard, so come here for support.

Ok kids here we are again riding the rollercoaster! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It's been almost a week to be exact 5 days when he told me that he was feeling in love with me again. And Awed and the rest,you'd be proud as I did everything in the book ... to be sweet,nice, no LBs, etc...and I don't know why it does not surprise me but he's not feeling anything again.

So in short we're back to 2 Saturdays ago when he wanted to be on his own and figure himself out, take a break from me and see if "feelings of deep love, passion and romance" would all come back!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I am feeling so used every weekend bec. I feel that he only wants to be with me during the week and spend time with his friends during the weekend or maybe the OW who knows to which he vehemently denies. He said he doesn't even want to be with her because all she did was ***** at him ( so they might still be having contact for all I know thru phone or emails) so he just wants to be on his own stop dating and figure out what he wants to do. And my reply is: "You know baby, your happiness is very important right now, I don't want you to be here when you are not feeling happy so I have no problem if you want to find yourself" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> He said he's not unhappy but he's not feeling the "deep feelings" .

UGGGHHHH!!! Believe me you guys if I had a 2x4 beside me I would have just hit him in the head so he can straighten whatever loose screws he has. He's confused why he's lost it again no matter how hard he's tried accdg to him. Of course I said, I don't think you've tried hard because you have not followed the rules to marital recovery and he said he's got his own rules. Yeah so if you have your own rules how come it didn't work for your first failed marriage? I also told him why do you want to base your future on your feelings when you can't even trust how you feel one moment as it changes from one to the next? He was silent and I know I hit a spot there.

He said he just wants us to take a break since we haven't done that in 5 years so maybe it will be the answer. And then he asks what do you want me to do? I told him to "try harder because it doesn't happen magically, you've got to deposit LUs for the love bank to grow interest." He thinks he's with me 24/7 but I told him I don't think so,you bury yourself in your work and we only share cooking and dinner but weekends is only one night with me and the other night (either Fri or Sat with his friends). I told him that I've given you 100% of my time the whole 5 years and you've given me only half so think about that and he was quiet and recognized that he's really been selfish. This has been the major cause of our arguments in our R and I just got tired of it and let him go out not knowing that he was already having an A.

Today, I asked him to choose between his friends that he wants to see every week (last Sat he came home at 3:30 AM and I was furious and told him to pack up and he said he's never going to do it again and look now...I told him if you can't even spend an entire weekend with me how can you spend a lifetime with me? This has been my resentment regardless of whether there was an A or not.

Right now, he just walked away holed up in his office maybe he'll move out this weekend I have no clue. I am mad, tired, yet calm, prepared, accepting and sad. We might end up separating and if that happens, pls correct me if I'm wrong MBers then Plan B should be in effect right? I know that Plan B is when the WS is still vacillating b/w BS and OW, and protecting the BS from further pain. He's professing he's not going to her and I can call his parents and families to check on him everyday if he moves out to which I said why would I want to do that? Would I be bothering other people about your whereabouts every single hour of the day? Right now the only thing I know how to do is pray and let it go. Plan A or B I need your guidance MBers!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The censored word here " all the OW does is b**tch at him! incase you are wondering about that.

Know what hon? You have to have a heart to heart with yourself now...how committed are you? This is a LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGG process...get the picture? It's not "fair", you "deserve" better, and only YOU can decide what you need to do...

You can't "educate" him, you can't tell him what to do, you can't continue to LB (LB doesn't exclusively mean raised voices...an LB can be delivered in a sweet and soft voice too!) him and expect a whole lot different than vacillation on his part...

does this suck or what??? You've been doing everything so well, working so hard, and now I'm here saying you have to do even more???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

yup, that's about the size of it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

here's the thing...you haven't truly "let go" yet...when you do, then and only then do you let things happen at the pace they will go, not the pace you would have them go...do you see the difference?

setting your boundaries is one thing...ie. seeing OW...contact, etc....but going out with friends? That's not a boundary he's going to respect at this point...notice the key phrase "at this point"...this may or may not come later...

this is why I encourage that book I keep recommending to all and sundry...it helps you to understand what you can and cannot do in a relationship, and how to figure out what's really important to you...

I think it helps to permanently change your perspective...understand we are talking permanent right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...he came home at 3:30 AM and I was furious and told him to pack up... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

that's my 2 cents worth for right now...feel free to write back and yell at me...this isn't what you want to hear I expect...

but I've said it before and I'll say it again: he is the only one that can choose to change...you make it enticing...you make changes that let you live with yourself, happy in yourself...you make changes that make it likelier that the two of you will be happy together...

but despite your best, very best, stupendous efforts! He may still choose not to participate... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

however behaviours such as nagging, crying, anger, lecturing, etc. make it way less likely he will choose the option you want him to choose...

I'm open to discussing this with you so don't run away on me now...I know it's hard news to hear...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that Plan B is when the WS is still vacillating b/w BS and OW, and protecting the BS from further pain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well yes, he may still be seeing OW but there's also a good chance he's just a typical WS in withdrawal and vacillating...

sadly, Plan B is not intended to protect the BS from bs during recovery...if the BS can't handle the bs then the BS needs to have a heart to heart to see what it is the BS needs for the BS...

clear as mud??? awed

Awed,

Thanks once again for the response. Today he and I agreed that a break is the best for him and myself. He desperately wants to be alone - accdg to him no woman just him and think without pressure as in me being nice and yes you're right dictate the pace that I wanted him to move. I told him that I would like that too as my commitment is being overshadowed by my emotions and I feel like we need to stop being with each other for awhile. He told me that he needs a hard knock for him to realize what he will be missing which he knows already what's going to happen if he moves out...he said he already misses me and he hasn't done that yet but I told him I don't want you to just miss me I want you to miss me and do something about it and not be complacent because you know I'll always be here...i did ask him to find a place to stay for tonight such as his parents or brothers because he said he's going by there bec. if he stays in the house he will not miss any part of us , he just won't date me...so right now i'm doing a 180 degree turn and it's a risk I'm willing to take to test his love and evaluate myself too if i want to stay in here for the longest time...he said it's not bad as what i think he just needed some space...I said go and find yourself and come back to me when you are ready to commit again and this time no more wishy-washy!
"do you want me to call you when i'm at my parent's? and i go "no you don't have to the less i hear from you the better." Right now i'm not sure what plan i am i just know it sucks and it hurts and i want to just heal for awhile.

==================================================
here's the thing...you haven't truly "let go" yet...when you do, then and only then do you let things happen at the pace they will go, not the pace you would have them go...do you see the difference?
=================================================

Awed, now I do, and he also expects the feelings to go at the pace he wants to which is impossible at this point so now I am really letting go....I've tried my best and all he sees is that the love is still not there so it's not happening for him as fast as he wants it so maybe tough love is the only answer...actually "time" is the only healer and i will give him all the time for as long as i can still be around, i don't know who knows?

So to answer the commitment issue to the MBprinciples, I think we are committed for as long as we are seeing results.

He also told me that he's joined the forum but didn't quite see his story in any of the new topics coz i told him that you'll find great support from everyone which he at first laughed at but now is embracing it.

Awed, i'm not fighting you on anything, yes I did LB subtly, cry a lot (another LB) but i'm just human girl. I do respect your perspective and i know when you mean long that is a mile long of patience and hard work which i need to revisit if i want to or not. Thanks for the provoking thoughts and for always being here.

I'll be fine I think now that it's out of my control, in fact i feel free. time to focus on myself and feeling good...
and yes its' clear as a mud <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> you'd think that all these plans are simple oh my God they test you like you've never been tested before.

will sleep and rest for now...BF

Awed, i forgot what is the name of the book that you are recommending?
BF

Awed,

This one really throws me off -

==================================================
however behaviours such as nagging, crying, anger, lecturing, etc. make it way less likely he will choose the option you want him to choose...

==================================================

So in essence we'll just let him do what he wants to do when he wants to do it? Then he's just going to walk all over me. He's manipulatively sweet and i tried not nagging him or lecturing him for 5 years but what happened? he abused it and had an A, do you get what i'm saying? it's like if he can get away with it without me nagging he's gonna and more.

ok hit me with whatever, he said i'm strict but hey i wasn't strict for a long time let you do what you wanted but what happened? so damn if you do damn if you don't.

WARNING: this is a long, long post that will likely piss you off at least once or twice! but hey, if I don't say the hard stuff, then I would be letting you down...the easy answer -- telling you that you're right -- you can get from anyone...most people will say "about time you booted him out"...that's the easy answer...

okay...right off the bat, I need to challenge a misunderstanding...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...answer the commitment issue to the MBprinciples, I think we are committed for as long as we are seeing results. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was not asking you if you are committed to the MB principles...you aren't even though you feel that you are right now...but that is neither here nor there...

what I am asking you straight up is: are you committed to making your R work, to doing your very best to achieve that goal? Is this what you really want to do?

Or do you want to be "right"? Do you want to work toward healing your heart from the pain this man has inflicted, and you've decided you can only do this by ending the relationship?

Keep these questions in mind as you read through the rest of my post...

book: how one of you can bring the two of you together by Susan Page...basically takes all the Plan A concepts further...gives you specific tools to release anger...change perspective...drill into your head that you can NEVER change someone else...yet if you change yourself, they will change too! Change the dance, your partner perforce has to change his steps too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he and I agreed that a break is the best for him and myself. He desperately wants to be alone ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry to hear this -- breaks aren't a great idea...tend to make it easier for the WS to emotionally detach...

and if you were going to "break", you should have DECIDED (calmly, with great thought, at least 3 days) to do so, then written your Plan B letter, then calmly and lovingly sent him packing...

I will be curious to see how you feel as your separation goes on though...let me know if you feel so inclined...I suspect you need to go through the same emotions anyhow, whether you are together or apart...it may seem easier at the time to do this apart but you may not find it easier in the long run...

that said, only YOU can decide if you are truly finished with this relationship...which is why I asked you first and foremost about commitment to your relationship...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lo and behold after some release of resentments, anger and frustration coupled with lots of loving and plenty of prayers, my WS told me yesterday when we were in line at the St. Joseph's table that he is falling in love with me again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You posted the above just 5 short days before posting that you now want him out of your life...

only YOU can decide how loving and supportive you are willing to be...and I am not talking about 5 days worth of support...I am talking about real commitment...

I discovered that I mean my M vows (which I realize you have not given to this man)...to love, honour and cherish my H through sickness...that is what he is...sick...and every day, I ask myself can I continue?...not how LONG can I continue (that would drive me batty in VERY short order!)...just "can I continue today"...

length of A = length of recovery as a rough guesstimate...for me that means anywhere up to 5 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...I am not guaranteeing you that I will hang in here for 5 unfulfilling years!...just that commitment is individual to each person, and we each need to make our own decision about how long we can persevere...we don't KNOW until we get there which is why we need to keep asking ourselves -- can I keep going today?

there's a good reason you've heard a lot of techniques on this site that you can use in order to persevere -- this is a very tough road to follow which is why others are here to cheer you on...

looking at it from a different perspective, I've known lots of people who split up and are still bitter years later...splitting up has little to do with whether or not you heal...personally, I've come to believe that this MB road, while excruciating, also holds the best possibility of truly healing oneself...

of course, WE (I, you, anyone here) are the only person we CAN possibly heal...we cannot heal our broken, lost, confused mate...that is up to them...but it's really hard to watch isn't it?

I hope you can see what I'm getting at...there is no right and wrong here...if you WON'T keep going because you've decided that this path is wrong for you, then that is your decision to make, and NO ONE should criticize you for it (or rather, you should not take any notice of any real or perceived criticism)...

but in terms of your situation, I feel obligated to tell you that it is no different than what pretty much everyone who's successfully survived this mess has ever been through...

although some people may make it seem easy, read between the lines...it is not easy for anyone...there are always good and bad days...just eventually the good outnumber the bad or you decide the R is over...

ANY LBing on your part sets the recovery clock back significantly...

I know I know!!!! It is not fair! Neither is life. None of us would have chosen this as our test but that is not our choice...look to your faith on this one...it is NOT up to you to choose the burdens you are given...

all you can do is your best...and learn...and grow...as a person...in love...that's my belief anyhow...

If things change for you, and the move does not happen...or if you take some deep breaths and a few days respite and decide to try again...well then, I am going to try and give you some more ideas...

you are probably not going to like these observations either...but things need to be said for others that may read here, others who may be looking to your story for hope or inspiration...

and of course I hope that perhaps in a while, you yourself will find the information useful...I really do hope for this...

WHY??? Because I don't think you're actually done with your R, not by a long shot...you are still far too angry and hurt at this point...doesn't mean that you won't decide your R is truly over...just that you are still angry and hurt so the time hasn't come yet for you...

I am going to be blunt with you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him I don't want you to just miss me I want you to miss me and do something about it and not be complacent because you know I'll always be here </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a DJ. A DJ is an LB. Nothing subtle about it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him that I would like that too as my commitment is being overshadowed by my emotions and I feel like we need to stop being with each other for awhile </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a threat and is negative. You either Plan A or you Plan B. You don't ever do it half-way or it won't produce the results you are looking for. If you screw up, you apologize, pick yourself up and don't do it again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if he stays in the house he will not miss any part of us , he just won't date me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">staying with you if you are Plan A'ing reinforces why he is with you in the first place...it gives him an anchor in the emotional turmoil he's going through...he's reminded of reality...

never forget, the OP doesn't cause emotional turmoil (really) because there's not a whole lot of, or any!, reality with them...they represent fantasy, escape, pleasure...doesn't mean those feelings will last which is why the A stands virtually no chance of continuing in the long-term...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said go and find yourself and come back to me when you are ready to commit again and this time no more wishy-washy! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well now, you have to know this one is a DJ! Say the same thing but without the DJ...that's your basic Plan B letter...set the boundaries for return without DJing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "no you don't have to the less i hear from you the better." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> wow...so you really have decided it's over between you??? This comment is so mean...rap rap rap on your knuckles for this one...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now i'm not sure what plan i am </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">none

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i just know it sucks and it hurts and i want to just heal for awhile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it know does <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ...and I hope this separation makes you feel better, I truly do...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he also expects the feelings to go at the pace he wants to which is impossible at this point so now I am really letting go </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you're missing my point altogether...

"let go" for you does not mean "abandon him and your R"...let go means let go of your controlling nature vis-a-vis the R...let go of your need to set timeframes...let go of your need to rein him in...

do the positive, eliminate the negative, reinforce the positive, ignore the negative (unless boundaries)...set clear and simple boundaries and discuss them when they are broken...control yourself and your reactions closely...work on YOURSELF means exactly that...

it is VERY hard to unlearn and relearn behaviours...you are now discovering this about yourself, how much trouble you are having despite your obvious commitment to change...you think you've learned new behaviours but the old ones keep on creeping in...

use this knowledge about yourself to understand him better...he's going through the same thing...this is a long, learning process...that's how you teach yourself to cut him some slack...to be patient...to understand because you've been through it too...

it's really hard to ignore your feelings isn't it? Understand it is hard for the WS too...even though it is obvious to you that they are "wrong"...well, it's obvious to me that you are "wrong" but I sure understand how hard it is!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've tried my best and all he sees is that the love is still not there so it's not happening for him as fast as he wants it so maybe tough love is the only answer </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the love is "still" not there after 5 measly days???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> actually "time" is the only healer and i will give him all the time for as long as i can still be around, i don't know who knows </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good, this is much better!...time yes, only time will show you the true outcome...and don't anticipate results -- "I don't know" is much better than a specific timeframe...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He also told me that he's joined the forum but didn't quite see his story in any of the new topics </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope he continues here although I'd guess that he's less likely to do so because he's moved out...less motivation to work on the R altogether...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> yes I did LB subtly, cry a lot (another LB) but i'm just human girl. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">geez...I know that...I think (let me check...yup) that I'm "only" human too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> crying is the least of the "problem" behaviour in my book because it is honestly sharing your feelings albeit not through words...

however, just based on the above examples, I don't think you've LB'ed a little bit, I think you've done it a lot! and I mean a heck of a lot more than crying...it's hard, I know, to stop yourself from LBing when faced with fog/withdrawal, wishy-washy crap!!!!

but when you screw up? then you need to ask yourself the hard questions, cry, yell, come here and vent, call your supporters and vent (I do that a lot)...

bottom line is that you must decide to continue to do this process for YOU, because you've decided it's the right thing for YOU to do...when you are done with the process, you will know it...

BF: if you feel at peace with your decision a month from now, then it will likely be the right thing for you after all...

anger and hurt take a long time to work through your system...personally, I think anything decided in anger, any level of anger, is very likely to be a "wrong" decision...not that the outcome itself is wrong, but that the process leading to it will leave you feeling uncomfortable and vaguely uneasy in the future...or outright uphappy with yourself because you slammed shut a door before you were ready to do so...

think about what you REALLY want to do...what YOU want to do...that way, if you dive back in, you can use this knowledge as motivation to keep yourself going...you see, if it is what YOU want to do, that's the reason...you will tell yourself that you are not doing it for him (although he will benefit too), you are doing it for you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So in essence we'll just let him do what he wants to do when he wants to do it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...you explain this one to me...it is the MOST important part of your post...

tell me honestly: how do you make him do anything other than what he wants to do when he wants to do it? Chains? Whips? Drawn gun? Cruelty? Threats? Intimidation? Starvation? Shame?

FACT: only he can choose what he will choose when he chooses it...yes...this sucks...but it is FACT!!!

The underlying point -- which takes all of us BS a long time to figure out -- is that commitment does not equate to "you do what I want too, not just what you want to do"...commitment is always voluntary...I choose to take your thoughts, feelings, desires into consideration in everything I do for the rest of my life...that would be the choice we want them to make, right?

but it is always a choice...there are no guarantees...Harley is clear on this...as is Page...as are all other relationship experts...

we have the power to hurt others...we can use that power and many of us do successfully for a long time....however Harley (and Page) both advocate using love, honesty, improved communication, etc. as the most powerful tools to build a long-lasting healthy, satisfying relationship...

that said, all relationships will still face unresolvable conflicts...that is where I see Page offering a good set of skills that enable you to figure out where your boundaries are, how to communicate them, how to get your S to participate on the same page as you, and finally how to decide if the R is simply never going to give you what you want/need...

and boundaries -- your boundaries -- are what you need to figure out...but that still makes them yours and yours alone...not his...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he said i'm strict but hey i wasn't strict for a long time let you do what you wanted but what happened? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you can set whatever boundaries you need to...and if he crosses them, and you've decided that they make or break your relationship, then so be it! They are YOUR boundaries...

but sweetie, you are LBing him...and that has nothing to do with setting and enforcing boundaries, even though it feels to you like it does...

if you set boundaries and Plan A around everything else, then you have the stage set for WS compliance...always voluntary...you are showing him that a) you command respect b) you do not punish c) you reward...

if he does not respect this kind of relationship, respect you...well then, you know where you stand don't you? And you would make your decision accordingly at that point...

that said, I will repeat myself one last time...regardless, you CANNOT expect this new relationship to happen between you all at once...it only comes in dribs and drabs, and after a lot of work, effort and perseverance on your part...that is how this healthy relationship-building process works...

sucks I know...not fair I realize...boy oh boy I would change it in a second if I could!

hope these thwacks haven't caused too much painful throbbing in your head! believe me, I have lots and lots of sympathy for you too...I wish your WS would get the picture and straighten up immediately...however, from what I can tell from my copious reading, this seldom if ever happens...in fact, a quicker recovery can hide deeper problems so slow and painful may actually be a good thing on some level!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it's like if he can get away with it without me nagging he's gonna and more </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not saying this isn't true for your WS but most BS feel this way...nagging is simply never going to work long-term for any of us though...

BF: I'm happy to talk about any of this in greater depth with you...but I also don't want to keep on at you if you find it is of no value...so please let me know...

no matter what, you've done well to get this far...pat yourself heartily on the back...

look after yourself and be very kind to yourself...perhaps you think that you are already doing that but I see a lot of judgement against yourself in your posts as well...don't do that anymore...okay? if you screw up, apologize, figure out what you did wrong and change it...no more beating yourself up...it is just not healthy...awed

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

here's a quote to think on...from sprezzatura...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> never say never. there are so many many things I NEVER thought I'd hear or see- good or bad from my H and everyday I am amazed. gotta quit saying never- hope is what we all have- you gotta hang on to it- breathe in and out- tomorrow is a new day. I have been waiting almost 2 years to hear "there is NOTHING wrong with you- its me- I F'ed it all up-relax- you are wonderful" and that came out of the clear blue with no questions from me- I was just staring out the window where I have said goodbye and waited for his return-everyday- for 24 years. I didn't even reply-he said it all. don't give up- CHOOSE what you want and work for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">awed

Awed, reading your post is so educational and helpful. I am reading Susan Page's book now. I think that I am praticing it with Plan A. What you said here reenforced what I did was right. If my WH turned 180 degree and come back, it may scare me more than anything. I learned to be patient now. Thanks a lot.

BF, I know how hurtful this is. But stay strong and stay here. We are walking on a narrow and difficult path, but the result will be amply reawrding, because GOD is holding our hand.

Awed,

I don't mind long posts like that and I'm not angry at you for hitting me in the head with your wisdome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> In fact that is why I post here because I needed someone to tell me that once again I LB'd to death even though I thought maybe not too much.

First of all, an update:

Friday was when we talked about him moving out.
Sat: Again he didn't do anything so just kept quiet went shopping with a friend, and then he called saying he's going to be by his parents. I said coming hm and then let's talk coz when he called me he said he's looking at places where we can go out to that night. So in short, asked him why he changed his mind and he said he wants to see his GM who just came home fr surgery and then he wants to see his brother. Ok, one more LB by being cold and told him do what you have to do. I will not control you anymore and since we are "not dating" (in our agreement we are to stop going out with each other for awhile) you can do whatever. He said I've asked your son to go out with you so you guys can spend some time together...whatever. So he left I was just not talking which he questioned I said how can you pretend nothing happened today when we decided on taking a break last night? To cut the story short he called me when he was at his parents, and then later that night around 12 MD asked me if I would leave him out on the cold or 'Can I come home" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Too sleepy to LB so I said just come home.

And he did think he tried to sleep in the basement first and came up to the room and snuggled all night with me. I didn't say a word just snuggled back to him. Sunday S and I went to church without him bec he didn't feel good and we had a nice time just having lunch and watching TV. He left at 6 to Borders and came hm around 7:30 and we just watched a comedy "heartbreakers" which is just soooo funny. All in all it was a nice day until it's time for bed and i jokingly ask him so where r u sleeping tonight he said in our bed, k u realize ur breaching the contract right? and he smiled...

But when i came up he had a pillow in the middle of us which of course I kinda feel like a wall he put in there so we don't touch or snuggle so I was a bit offended and not talked too much in the morning... LB again Awed.

K this morning I was reading "O" magazine and chance upon an article about how to make your R better by changing your mindset and letting go of control, basically everything you talked about lengthily in here Awed and it dawn on me that yes I am reacting to him because of my ego and my expectations of what I want him to be. (sorry I can't eloquently put it but I will post here tonight on the exact words). At any rate, it says if there's a negative issue from the spouse, always think about their positives and it will change the way you respond to them. Voila!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ok, ok, it's not easy but i will have to take this experiment like all the advises you've given me Awed. Need to print this post from yours so I can read it everyday to remind me how controlling I am.

Think I got it now, am very controlling and too expecting of the results which just drives him away. Actually the last few days I practiced emotional detachment from him when he went out on his own and for the first time I actually feel at peace with myself on my own.

As to the Q if I have given up on the R, the truth is I have not!!! ANd yes am learning that the quicky recovery is false and the slow ones bring us greater lessons not just about the R but also about ourselves. I will try to apologize tonight and this to me: "to never expect, control and demand and set a timeline!!!" alright alright i already know I might break them sometime but I will post where he can't see it!"

Yes he lied that he had posted here but he has been reading i didn't tell him about my login name and he's told me that he's learning a lot from the people here.

Awed, I don't feel bad about what you said because it's food for my soul and my growth. I value everything that you said because there's a lot to do to clean me up and thanks for the patience in sticking around with me - a sick puppy.

Love you all,
BF

BF: if you read this before you apologize (did I understand you correctly that you are going to apologize to him?), then this is how you do it.

keep it simple and short...something along the lines of: I am sorry I said nasty things to you...I am so tired right now and want things to get better between us fast fast fast! You have been so amazing _________ (fill in blank, make it real, whatever actions you can honestly admire) and yet I want more! (laugh)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> this is a long, learning process </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would strongly suggest that you use these opportunities to explain that it is taking you a while to unlearn your bad behaviour and relearn healthy habits.

why??? because this is honest, the simple truth...this is showing "loving leadership" (a Susan Page phrase) to a confused and lost WS...this is not a LB...

if you merely apologize for an outburst, that is not really honest...do you see the difference? honestly -- you are mad and hurt by his actions...and you will be for a long time...

but what YOU are trying to learn is not to let your emotions drive your reactions...so you apologize for letting your emotions get the better of you, not for feeling the emotions you do...

you are asking him to make the same choice (don't verbalize this part though!!!)...you are asking him to make the best choice (you) over an easy emotional choice (OW)...(don't say that to him either!)

by telling him of your struggle and how you are dealing with it, you create a learning opportunity for him...

do you hear my words? you CREATE an opportunity...you do NOT educate him...he can CHOOSE to learn from you, with you...you are in recovery together so this is a first small step in the right direction...

this living in chaos is hard to do...you will need to keep on picking yourself up again and again...but comfort yourself, motivate yourself, with the knowledge that you will know when it is no longer the right thing for you to do...awed

P.S. I do not think you are a sick puppy at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...you are trying hard and need some outside perspective, that's all...

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

lostnhurt: good for you reading that book! How do you like it? I found it really inspirational actually, a "light bulb" book!

helped to turn around my perspective on lots of things, learn to see how I was actually preventing things from happening, or screwing things up between us, etc. And yet it never talks specifically about A's! But I too found it helpful, and that it worked hand-in-glove with Plan A principles...just went further in terms of hard information and practical advice (including exercises)...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that I am praticing it with Plan A. What you said here reenforced what I did was right. If my WH turned 180 degree and come back, it may scare me more than anything. I learned to be patient now. Thanks a lot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are so very very welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...patience is something we are all getting the hardest lesson in, isn't it! I myself am a "take-action" person and find this waiting very hard to do...

as mentioned earlier, we do not choose these burdens...all we can do is see them as an opportunity...

I read you are counselling with SH...I will go and check out some of your other posts...

I read your comments to "Mom" today...it often helps to be someone else's support doesn't it? helps you get some perspective on your own progress...take care and keep up your good work! awed

Awed, thank you for your comments. I 've been reading and reading. I read all Harley's books, I read Dobson's tough love, now Pages. I have her book and SAA by my bed and hoping WH will read them too. But he didn't. I was not disappointed at all. I felt so proud of myself that I can be the leader in my M.

If you read my thread, you can see that my WH wanted me to "educate" him about the MB concepts. Isn't that amazing? He agreed to go to the MB seminar. I am like sponge now, trying to absorb as much as I can. I also signed up for the savemymarragenow.com. I got news letters, books from there too. Today's concept was admiration. I need show my appreciation to WH for his kindness on kids, willingness to go to MB seminar. I decide to write him an e-mail daily to tell me what kind of quality I love him. Just a short one. I am not good in expressing myself verbally, so I will use e-mail.