Awed,

I need some wisdom...
My wife is going to move out. I am confident that I have done a GREAT Plan A. I have exposed the affair to her mother and my mother. She is aware that they know. She felt is was a tremendouse LB.

She went NC for almost three weeks but now is back in contact with the OM. I'm not sure how the separation is going to work out. I don't believe I am a statistic, but what do they say about the success of a good plan A followed by plan B. She is moving out because I wouldn't she said she's angry and wants the hurt to stop. She feels this cannot be accomplished while living with me. How much of this is FOGlanese?

Titleist

hey there...I am so sorry to hear your news <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...I've been curious about what was happening with you and keeping my fingers crossed that no news meant good news...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am confident that I have done a GREAT Plan A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am positive you have! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have exposed the affair to her mother and my mother. She is aware that they know. She felt is was a tremendouse LB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good for you!!!

forget her feelings on this one because this is a typical WS reaction...

how are the mothers dealing with it? Have either of them spoken with her about the A? Given her support to end the A?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She went NC for almost three weeks but now is back in contact with the OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">again, extremely typical during withdrawal/recovery...in fact I read yesterday that almost all recoveries will experience slippage (renewed contact), often many times, before finally success...

I suspect her wanting to move out has a lot more to do with renewed contact than any anger she feels towards you...

how are you dealing with the contact? ie. emotionally...are you okay?

are you and your W discussing the contact? ie. is she being honest with you about it? Or are you snooping?

if so, have you exposed your knowledge to her? How? What exactly are you saying to her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife is going to move out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">here's the deal...she may talk a lot about moving out, and then may not actually go through with it...where do the logistics stand? (ie. has she made living arrangements? is she packing?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not sure how the separation is going to work out. I don't believe I am a statistic, but what do they say about the success of a good plan A followed by plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is for YOU...do you feel in need of Plan B? How are you doing? Could you continue in Plan A for any longer if she moves out?

Plan B MUST follow a good Plan A...you've done your best with an excellent Plan A...so let go of your worry...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is moving out because I wouldn't</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good for you sticking to your guns and not moving out yourself...do NOT budge on this no matter what...make her make the choice...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she said she's angry and wants the hurt to stop. She feels this cannot be accomplished while living with me. How much of this is FOGlanese? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it is really important that you do NOTHING to prevent her from leaving but also nothing in support of it either...keep on telling her that you want to keep on working on the M...keep on showing her confidence that the two of you can overcome whatever needs to be overcome...

remember: she's lost and hurt and cannot stand to look at herself in the mirror right now...

moving out, renewed contact with OM...this represents "escape" to her right now...she wants the hurt to stop...but what she does not realize is that she is going to take the hurt with her...she cannot escape from herself...

can you still talk with her? what is she angry about? what is SHE telling you is causing the hurt inside of her?

let me give you a real-life example to chew on: my H said to me "can't you see the difference between me treating you like you are a bad person, and actually thinking you ARE a bad person? Can't you see the difference between me taking my anger out on you, and actually being angry with you? You are NOT the one I'm angry with"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

it took him almost 2 months to articulate this...but you see, it's not bad at all really...he's understanding himself without me saying a word which is the way it has to be...

of course I know the difference in my head!...it is hard to be the recipient of ongoing, unfair anger but that is where detachment and loving understanding comes into play...to help me cope emotionally with what I know intellectually until the time that HE reaches the same conclusion...

time, patience, love...the three simple words to live by during withdrawal/recovery...

ironically, what he said to me was exactly what I had kept on telling myself...that I was NOT the one he was truly angry with...

I tell you this because it is a common reaction for WS to get angry at the BS in order to avoid themselves and their actions...

in your case though, is your W still angry at YOU? She has legitimate reason to be but you still need to remind yourself that you have been, and continue to be, repentant through your consistent actions towards her...

whether or not she has legitimate anger towards you, she will still have legitimate anger towards herself too...it may take her a while to deal with this, confront it honestly within herself...

moving out, the desire to escape, can actually be a sign that she's running out of excuses in her head...she's feeling trapped by herself and is trying physical distance to see if this will work...

okay: here's the part you probably don't want to hear...but I know you are a tough guy now and can take it! IF she actually does move out, the distance may work for her in the short-term... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

you need to prepare for this eventuality okay?

think about all you've been through with her...read some long-term Plan A's here on the site (let me know if you need some suggestions)...think about if you can continue it for a while longer...

just because she's gone, doesn't necessarily mean you automatically go to Plan B...if the spouse is waffling between lover and spouse, that's another strong reason for Plan B but the subtleties are such that it is not clear-cut one way or the other...although some here make it seem that way...

look into your heart, think about it for a few days...Plan B is hard on you too initially...N/C is hard to do...

although some spouses will return quickly under Plan B, it seems to me that most just try to test it (ie. test your resolve) while the A continues to run its natural course...

in your W's case, that may mean a PA...it may mean she moves in with him (is he attached?)...it could mean a whole lot of stuff...

one last thing...she can't make the hurt stop while living with you because she feels guilty around you...fog/withdrawal...blurry lines...call it rationalization for A to continue and/or escape from guilt and/or some combination of the two...

don't take it personally...all part of the same tired old WS script...

let me know how firm the moving out plans are...and what the state of your communication with her is...hang in there buddy...awed

P.S. Have you written your Plan B letter yet? if not, why not get busy on that...you may not need it but if you do, you'll have it ready to go...

it is a love letter with conditions for recovery embedded in it...a good thing to help clarify where your emotions are right now...that's the first question to answer vis-a-vis Plan B...

Awed,

I know about the renewed contact by her bahavior. While there was no contact she would leave her cell phone anywhere and allow anyone to answer an incoming call. She would also leave the cordless phone in the room. I have confirmed my suspicions by looking at the recent and dialed calls on her cell phone. I have not let her know that I'm aware of the renewed contact. Not that I'm okay with the contact, but I'm doing okay with it, if that make sense. It's not dead until it's dead! I was prepared for the withdrawl and the potential of her going back. This site has prepared me for that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She will be signing the lease or contract anyday now. She has found a place close by so our kids can get there by bike in ten minutes or so.

I do feel that I can continue to do Plan A indefinitely. I'm in no way loosing my love for her, it only seems to be growing. She says that she no longer wants to "report" to me and wants to know that she can live on her own and make it. We were married at an early age and she never lived on her own. I feel that she thinks that being by herself will make her feel impowered. I just don't want to aid in the A or her having her cake and eating it too. There would be no reason to return home if she can have the best of both worlds.

Neither of the mother's have talked to her about the affair. Her mother tried but my wife said she didn't want to talk. Both mother's acted like I thought they would. They were both sorry to hear of our mutual transgressions, but said that the weren't insurmountable. My mother called her and told her that she still loved her unconditionally!

My kids didn't take the news very well, as to be expected. My son was asking what did he and his sister do to make mommy want to leave. I told him nothing. Of course he wanted to know why she was leaving and what was causing her to hurt so bad.

My wife is living in unforgiveness, denial, and guilt of her own actions.

I have not started a Plan B letter, because I'm not sure if I'm going to go to Plan B. It may be seen as a way of controlling things. "My way, or the Highway" doesn't work with her at all. I need to leave it in such a way that it's her choice to come home. I've set a standard in the past few months and she's aware that she will need to come home in a certain manner.

You know that I'm a man of faith. There's a story in the bible about a man named Johah who was running from what God was directing him to do. This is how I see my wife. God is calling her to make some drastic changes and she's running the other way. God prepared a fish for Jonah and I believe he's prepared a "fish" for my wife. God is going to get her by herself where he can deal with her wrong doing and what she's done. She hasn't wanted to focus on any of that because she sees me on a daily basis. I feel that the majority of the time is spent being upset with me for what I've done. It wasn't until last week that she finally admitted that she's done some hurtful things as well. I'm hoping your right, that she can no longer hide from the pain of what she's done. She must come to grips with it and find healing.

I need to stop because I feel I'm rambling.

Thank you for your reply.

Titleist

P.S. Up until a week ago we "seemed" to be making great progress. I went for my first pedicure with her two weeks ago. She was allowing me into her private and personal time. I told her how nice it was to see her smile again, if even for a moment.

I'm a Good Man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

^^^

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have not let her know that I'm aware of the renewed contact. Not that I'm okay with the contact, but I'm doing okay with it, if that make sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why aren't you talking to her about it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says that she no longer wants to "report" to me and wants to know that she can live on her own and make it. We were married at an early age and she never lived on her own. I feel that she thinks that being by herself will make her feel impowered. I just don't want to aid in the A or her having her cake and eating it too. There would be no reason to return home if she can have the best of both worlds </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't support separation for a couple of reasons...I think it is either just letting the A continue without any pressure (ie. guilt) OR it supports the whole message that your M is over...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her mother tried but my wife said she didn't want to talk. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fair enough...no one can make her either...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My kids didn't take the news very well, as to be expected. My son was asking what did he and his sister do to make mommy want to leave. I told him nothing. Of course he wanted to know why she was leaving and what was causing her to hurt so bad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is awful...who told them? your W? or you?

how did your W respond to their concerns? Has she yet???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It wasn't until last week that she finally admitted that she's done some hurtful things as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is good...remember, progress is slow...

I know, it hasn't been with you! (you are a good man... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) but don't ever forget the real reason for this: you came here asking.

that is the essential difference...you came seeking answers...you were ready for change...your W, most WS, are not...

their A was exposed...needs to die...if forced to die, then needs a period of withdrawal, of mourning, of grieving...of denial...of renewed contact...then grieving again, etc....then likely a space...a period of reflection...

and here's where many WS go off the rails...we BS are pushing for recovery, pushing because our takers are howling for some love bank deposits at this point...

and yet, here's the WS in a confusing swirl of emotion...awful emotion that I think you can relate to...how could I? what was I thinking? WHAT HAVE I DONE???

many (most) WS retreat back into safety at this point...hey, I don't feel like that when I am with OP, or thinking of OP, or having daydreams about OP...

also, the guilt is overwhelming...more so when the A did not die on its own...

can you, can I, can any BS, wait through this long period (1-2 years) before the WS can finally face full-on the guilt associated with their actions???

some will NEVER make it...they will retreat in whatever way they choose in order to avoid themselves...they have not "hit bottom" and decided to accept the consequences of their actions...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm hoping your right, that she can no longer hide from the pain of what she's done. She must come to grips with it and find healing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so you see, I am only saying that she NEEDS to do this, not that she will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...actually, she's more likely to do this if she stays with you than without you...

moving out means she's running away to try and hide...staying with you is a harder choice for the WS to make...everytime she looks at you she feels guilt...the nicer you are, the more love you show her, the worse it gets for her...

titleist my friend: I will think positive thoughts for your W...I will pray that she does NOT have the incredible selfishness to walk away from her crying children...

but please reconsider your aversion to Plan B...if your W is selfish enough to walk away, well...her bottom may be much further away than you hope it is...

sometimes in my reading I've felt strongly that Plan B did make a difference to the end result...I don't mean in the traditional way of protecting the BS love, or making the WS understand that the BS was okay without them...

I mean in the clearly addiction-breaking way: the forced reliance on the OP, the forced separation from the children, etc....the REALITY of life without you...

but it is risky, I will grant you that...

try hard to use your knowledge of your W to figure out "controlling" (her need...to avoid) vs "reality" (your need...to confront)...

in my situation, since the only thing my H and I disagreed about at all was OW, continuing in Plan A if he chose to leave made no sense to me...this would be enabling the A...and I decided that I would rather end my M (or have the potential to end my M) than continue to live with the ongoing A...not because of the ongoing A which would likely burn itself out, but because of what that said about my boundaries...and his state of mind that he would throw everything away...

my boundaries were clear...no more OW...period...ever...(we're still fighting the battle FYI)...I am willing to take the time, effort, pain, punches, humiliation, etc. to get to the end of the road but I am not willing to enable the A...if he needs the A that badly, then he also needs to hit bottom that badly...

does this help? you have to work through your knowledge of your W, but most importantly, your new knowledge of yourself...

in my case, he does not want to continue the "A", he just does not see an EA as an A...since you are already in that situation (although I do suspect a PA is either happening, has happened or is imminent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ), know that you face many of the same hurdles...

"it's just an innocent friendship!"...you need to figure out your line in the sand...decide early and NEVER stray from it again...

this is a long-haul approach...there are shorter-haul approaches...make all kinds of strict conditions and use threats/pressure to enforce them...

then you see some of these same posters coming back here with the same old problems...

here's a little rant from me: it appears that most people in A's (long-term A's) have major self-esteem issues...you cannot solve this problem for them, they must resolve it themselves...

you can scare the living heck out of them which gets them to comply...in the short-term...they will say whatever they need to in order to restore order to their lives...and secretly, resentment builds...of course it does, they have not addressed their real problem...you did it for them...you scared them back into reality...

long-term solution: let them get themselves back into reality...provide a healthy environment, love them, support them, but NEVER let them cross your boundaries without letting them know...reality check...

takes longer but when they are there, it is because they chose to be there...if over the long-haul, you decide to leave...you will do so in loving compassion having healed yourself from all your pain...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need to leave it in such a way that it's her choice to come home. I've set a standard in the past few months and she's aware that she will need to come home in a certain manner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but that's Plan B...you set out the conditions for her return...in the meantime, she experiences life with OM (only OM) or on her own, truly on her own...you'd be surprised how hard it is even for a conflicted WS...

and if it is not hard for her, then it would have happened anyhow eventually...

well...I am not really trying to convince you into Plan B! I just do not want to see you abandon anything at this point...see what happens...

keep depositing into her love bank as fast and furiously as you can...let's see if she goes and what reality is like for her in the first few days...

if you suspect she's full-time into OM at that point, truly severing contact with her may well be the best option for you, for her, for your M...

hope something I've said helps...I'm thinking of you...awed

Awed,

I don't know what to say...

By reading your last post it doesn't sound like the outcome is going to be good. I'm going to stress to her that I think it's a good idea to keep NC with OM. She previously said that she didn't want to be influenced by him during this time. I'm hoping she sticks to it.

My heart is hurting right now and my mind is racing. I get this way when I start thinking about what "might" happen. I can't go there right now, it's counter productive to me. I'm trusting that Dr. Harley's statistic that "most" affairs die their own natural death about six months after exposure to family. We are just past the one month period. I'm going to hold on to see what the end is going to be. By the grace of God I've come to far to throw in the towel now.

One good thing is that she is open to counseling and is hurt that I didn't suggest it until she said she was moving out. This shows how an affair distorts your perception of reality. I asked her on numerous occassions to get counseling, to no avail. I'm praying that she is not just trying to pacify me until she leaves. I believe counseling will help us whether we stay together or not.

She hasn't iron her own clothes in six months and I was up this morning when she started to iron her clothes. She said she'd forgotten how tough it can be to iron certain clothes. This is now the same woman who hasn't had to go grocery shopping in seven months. Like you said she's feeling happy right now because she's getting what she wants. I'm trusting that reality will set in the moment she leaves and is really on her own.

This is a tough day so far. Lots of sadness when I think that my wife is leaving soon... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Titleist

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By reading your last post it doesn't sound like the outcome is going to be good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sorry... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...wasn't trying to make you feel bad...I am trying to get you to reconsider your opposition to Plan B, that's all...and also to remind you to prepare for a long wait...your W is wanting to move out...that means she is NOT facing her own actions yet...so you have to keep your taker firmly in check for quite a while yet...like most of us!

when are you starting in MC? when is she scheduled to move out?

do you mind anwering the questions I asked about the kids?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> long-term solution: let them get themselves back into reality...provide a healthy environment, love them, support them, but NEVER let them cross your boundaries without letting them know...reality check...

takes longer but when they are there, it is because they chose to be there...if over the long-haul, you decide to leave...you will do so in loving compassion having healed yourself from all your pain... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don't feel badly! you are doing the long-term approach...this means it takes longer initially but I suspect it stands a better chance of success long-term as well!

you are doing everything right...okay? that is the very best you can do...you CANNOT solve your W's problems for her...only she can do that...

let go of any notion that there is something else you can do...

do you feel better? you should! detach from the emotion...you are doing what you need to to help your M survive...worry and think about your kids...stop worrying (useless waste of time anyhow) about your M...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get this way when I start thinking about what "might" happen. I can't go there right now, it's counter productive to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that's anxiety pal...no problem, then don't think about the "what-ifs"...I normally tell people not to think that way anyhow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...in this case, I was trying to get you to consider Plan B and thought you were feeling really strong -- otherwise I would never have suggested it...

just take it one day at a time right now...keep on Plan Aing your heart out until she leaves...don't encroach on her space...just do the sure-fire things that are winners in her eyes...

the ironing thing? that's exactly what you want to have happen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...all of a sudden there she is realizing that she had a heck of a lot more with you than she was giving credit for...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going to hold on to see what the end is going to be. By the grace of God I've come to far to throw in the towel now </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh my goodness...was that what you thought I was suggesting??? NO way...why on earth would you throw the towel in now???

I think your situation has lots of hope actually...go back and read your initial postings...you have come a long way with your W...look at the progress you've made in such a short period of time...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like you said she's feeling happy right now because she's getting what she wants. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah, cake-eaters can be pretty cocky with themselves... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

here's another suggestion for you...can you work yourself up to telling her: "honey, I just want the best for you, whatever will make you happy" as she is walking out the door?

I like this approach a lot, although it will take a lot of courage to say it without bursting into tears (I'd imagine for myself anyhow)...

the reason I like it is because it finally puts paid to anything bad about you...never forget, unfair as it is, your S is constantly seeking out "bad" things about you so they can justify why they are right in doing what they know to be wrong...

are you with me still?

so every opportunity you get to do the opposite, to frustrate their intention to paint you in a bad light...that's good for you and the M...

and if she's walking out the door, then that will be the memory she takes to her new place, to her commitment not to meet with OM: that you want her happiness more than your own...most of all...you are concerned about her...

since she is a WS, she is most concerned with herself as well...as is OM...everyone is concerned with her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

so you want to be there too, concerned with her...unfair as that is...

well, I'll leave it at that before I depress you even more...please take care of yourself...it will be a hard day if she's goes through with it but remember this: this could be the best thing that could happen to your M! When she faces her fantasy, it may well blow to smithereens!!! In which case, you will no longer be fighting that invisible "what-if"...

so do NOT despair at all...feel strong about yourself and your path...visualize it strongly as a path, see your footsteps behind you, see how far you've already come even though it only seemed like a few feet to you...look ahead to the bright sunshine on the horizon and imagine how good the sun will feel on your face when you get there!

life is good!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> awed

Thank you for your quick response.

My wife told the children. She initially wanted to say that we "both" felt that her leaving would be good. I asked her not to say that because I've never felt that it would be good for her to leave. We all sat at the dinner table and she started by saying that,"Mommy's moving out into her own apartment". They started laughing and thought it was a joke. She said that she was serious and immediately the tears flowed. She said that she's sad and she wants some time to get over her feelings. She was crying and they were crying. I didn't want to cry because they needed to see some stability from someone. I called them over and let them sit on my lap as they cried.

My wife let them know that it has nothing to do with them. They wanted to know if she needed to get away from the family. She said no, she needs time to think on her own.

I don't know how much is clear thinking and how much is fog-speak.

Titleist

P.S. She's open to the idea of MC, but I don't want to push. We are thinking of attending the MB seminar in San Franciso in may. I'm looking for a Christian counselor that is out of the city. We don't want anyone who knows us from our previous time in ministry.

She's scheduled to move out a week from tomorrow.

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Titleist ]</small>

She says that she no longer wants to "report" to me and wants to know that she can live on her own and make it.
Typical, especially after they have had no-contact for awhile.

We were married at an early age and she never lived on her own.
That is such a cop-out.
I feel that she thinks that being by herself will make her feel impowered
You do realize, she wil not be "by herself"?
She may live alone but more than likely, she will stay at his house or he will stay at her place.

When a ws wants to separate "to be alone & think", it's simply a way to see the op easier.

Chris,

I do understand that the A is not dead yet. She has stated that the OM doesn't meet some important EN. I know that I'm going to have to give her time to find out that the A isn't what she wants.

She is still contemplating moving in with her mother who is a very strong Christian. I don't believe that she's really looking for that kind of freedom. I know that's going to be a component though.

Awed,

I had a long talk with my wife last night. For the first time she was able to share some of the pain she is feeling. Lots of talk about pain I inflicted early in the marriage. I owned responsibility and said I was sorry.

She doesn't know about Plan A or B. She said for me to stop meeting her needs now would signal to her that I'm still the same man who wasn't willing to meet her EN's. She said it would indicate that I was just doing all of this to try and get her to stay or work on the marriage. I felt that this would be the case. I told her that I wanted to give her the space she said she needed. I don't want to run to the rescue, because she said she wanted to know that she can make it by herself. She said that she doesn't want me to feel used. I told her that I'm now comfortable enough to tell her if I felt that she was just using me.

I'm going to continue in Plan A. I will watch out to make sure I'm not enabling cake eating!

She states that she feels like she is literally going crazy and close to an emotional break down. I think this is due to the fact that reality is finally setting in on her. She's hurt me, I've hurt her and now what the heck is she going to do going forward.

Please share your thoughts and help decode the Fogtalk..

Thanks,
Titleist

howdy...sorry it's taken me a while!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had a long talk with my wife last night. For the first time she was able to share some of the pain she is feeling. Lots of talk about pain I inflicted early in the marriage. I owned responsibility and said I was sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good for you...that + your changed behaviour is all you can do...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She doesn't know about Plan A or B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oops <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...never talk to the WS about Plan A/B!

at least, I assume that's what you mean -- that you talked to her about what they involved and she wasn&#8217;t sure if she liked it? Of course she wouldn't!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said for me to stop meeting her needs now would signal to her that I'm still the same man who wasn't willing to meet her EN's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no WS wants to have their cake taken away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...

the reason why you go to Plan B without warning is so that it does NOT come across as punishment...it is to preserve your love for her...

let me tell you a fact that we may or may not have discussed yet...I&#8217;ve talked to several BS who say they love their WS immensely and are doing just fine...but this can change in one day, overnight, that fast...it creeps up on you...

the BS is trying so hard to meet someone&#8217;s needs who is acting selfishly, often being cruel, and certainly not meeting many or any of the BS needs...that's why all of a sudden, you can go "pop"...you need to get to Plan B before that happens...

which is why I encourage you to write the Plan B letter...you can put it away and not use it...but if it is already done, then it will be there if, for example, you discover contact with OM...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said it would indicate that I was just doing all of this to try and get her to stay or work on the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">duh! classic foglatin...

perhaps you are also doing this to prevent hurt to your children? to make them feel safe and secure which is your JOB as parents!!!

I am so very deeply concerned that your W is not impacted by the pain of your children...

have you specifically talked about this with her? does she acknowledge THEIR pain? her happiness at THEIR expense? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

(I feel pretty strongly about kids not having any myself...sexist I know, but I am less surprised when dads are not concerned with crying children...many dads are less emotionally tied in with their kids)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told her that I wanted to give her the space she said she needed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmm...I think you would be much better off to continue to say bluntly that you do NOT want her to leave...

do nothing to stop her...remain calm...but do not encourage her in any way...

this is hurting your family...her leaving to get some &#8220;space&#8221; is seriously hurting your family, your children...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said that she doesn't want me to feel used. I told her that I'm now comfortable enough to tell her if I felt that she was just using me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she doesn&#8217;t want you to FEEL used nevertheless she IS using you, your guilt, your fear...if I am concerned about someone else&#8217;s well-being, I could take a trip away, spend some time apart...there are lots of ways to figure oneself out without leaving the family home and causing emotional trauma to the children...

she is NOT concerned with anyone else&#8217;s well-being but her own...this is typical WS crap...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going to continue in Plan A. I will watch out to make sure I'm not enabling cake eating! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well...you are going to have to be good and strong...you read that other post of mine, the example of "H"s wife...it is hard to do for any length of time...

I have another suggestion for you but will have to search for it...I'll post the link here for you when I find it...and then there&#8217;s "Carol&#8217;s story"...have you read that one? anyhow, these are all long-term Plan A&#8217;s...ones that worked eventually...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She states that she feels like she is literally going crazy and close to an emotional break down. I think this is due to the fact that reality is finally setting in on her. She's hurt me, I've hurt her and now what the heck is she going to do going forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she needs to face herself...

listen, if you get another chance, suggest going to a counselor...cheaper than moving out on her own...and it will allow her to get to the root of the problems...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please share your thoughts and help decode the Fogtalk.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">most of it is fogtalk...mentally you need to prepare yourself for her leaving but don&#8217;t act that way around her...stay strong...

have you read the lighthouse post? I&#8217;ll go bump it on GQ II...it is a excellent metaphor for how you need to compose yourself during Plan A and withdrawal too...

another thought: reinforce that she can back out, change her mind at ANYTIME...gently reinforce that she should not let pride stand in her way...you could emphasize again that you know she&#8217;s coping with SO much bad history from you, and you don&#8217;t blame her one bit...but stress that the kids and you will be lost without her...you need her, your kids need her...

I&#8217;m having a hard time believing OM is not in the picture...your W is behaving like a majorly fogged-out WS right now...

that said, the eternal optimist in me would hope that perhaps she really scared herself with OM...maybe she needs to truly test her ability to cope on her own! If that is the case though, she can do that WITH you...she can become more independent...and/or the underlying reason may be because she feels so betrayed by you that she cannot trust you...she feels scared by her vulnerability...

again, if that is the case, counselling will sort this out...stress that her staying and continuing to talk is the best option for everyone involved...

take care of yourself and your kids...I am still stunned by her reaction, or better phrased: lack of reaction...woof...

hope this helps...keep me posted...I&#8217;ll keep checking in on you&#8230;they (WS) often change their minds at the last minute...Plan A your heart out right now...throw everything you can at her...I mean good stuff only of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> awed

P.S. keep hope! silver lining to moving out is she will discover for once and for all that you ARE a good man!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Titleist!

I am concerned about you...where are you??? please e-mail me at awed18_symc@yahoo.ca...

thanks, awed

are you out there??? awed

Awed,

Yes I'm here. I've been lurking but haven't had time to post. I'm trying to get caught up at work.

She moved out last Thursday and before she went I had a little talk with her. I thanked her for 13 years of marriage and two of the greatest kids a man could ask for. She said, "you're making it sound so final". I told her that you've given me no assurance of your return so I wanted to let you know how I feel before you leave.

I can't believe how well I've taken the change. I have to give all of the credit to Jesus. He's been my constant source of strength and peace.

She's started reading a book on forgiveness that I read a month ago. She called to talk about some of the principles this morning and it sounds like the fog is lifting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She came back home Sunday to get a few things and was amazed at the condition of the house. Everything was clean and in order. She told me later that our home has a feeling to it that the apartment can't touch.

She's continued to ask how soon we can get into counseling. She wants to get some issues resolved so she can come home. Yeah, I know she should come home and work on them there, but at least she's wanting resolution. I told her I loved her today for the first time in a couple of days and she sounded relieved to hear it. I said I haven't told you in a while and she replied, "you haven't told me in two days I was beginning to wonder".

Oh, Friday night we went to a play for my daughter and the OW (the one who's like a sister) and her ex-H were there. What a tough time for my wife and me. My wife was at the point of tears the whole time. At the end of the play, the OW's ex asked if I had a minute to talk outside. I told him I didn't and I needed to find my daughter. My wife said I she see what he has to say. I said that there's nothing he has to say that could benefit me in any way. I told her that this thing needs to die and for me to talk to him gives it more life. She understood.

Well I'll stop there and await a response.

Things are great and God is even Greater!


Titleist

^^^

Can you e-mail me? I have a piece of info for you that I am uncomfortable sharing here...

if you can't, let me know and I'll find another way to get it to you...

as for W...how are you feeling? are you keeping tabs on her? or simply trusting that she's not in contact with OM?

how often are you in contact?

and what about your kids? how are they dealing with mom's absence? are they okay? how is your W with them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's continued to ask how soon we can get into counseling. She wants to get some issues resolved so she can come home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so what are the answers? when can you? what are the issues...do you already know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I know she should come home and work on them there, but at least she's wanting resolution. I told her I loved her today for the first time in a couple of days and she sounded relieved to hear it. I said I haven't told you in a while and she replied, "you haven't told me in two days I was beginning to wonder". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you know, I want to believe her...for your sake I truly do...I don't want to believe she is a cake-eater...

I KNOW she needs your love...what I don't trust is why she needs to be apart...why she put her needs over her children's needs...these are warning bells of major proportions...

but...you do have an unusual situation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm so sorry to hear about Friday evening...it sounds as though you handled it so very well though...were you affectionate with your W? did she accept support from you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't believe how well I've taken the change. I have to give all of the credit to Jesus. He's been my constant source of strength and peace. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it does not surprise me at all! I am positive your faith gives you strength and helps you face what you must...

that said, you have also changed so much in your time here...you have grown a lot, developed a lot of inner strength...

perhaps this is all a lie (you never know with on-line stuff huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) but that is what I intuit from you...

let me ask you a question: forgetting what you now know (ie. putting aside everything you've learned about the damage caused by infidelity), do you think you are still the same person that had the hot-tub encounter? deep-down inside...are you the same person?

awed

Awed,

My email address is titleist19682003@yahoo.com

I think the answer to your last question is no I'm not the same person that was able to have the hot tub encounter. There have been so many changes in my life in the past months. I don't want to say that I'm above it, because I never thought I would get to that point to begin with. I now know the warning signs in my life and have safeguards to protect me. I'm in contact with my pastor several times a week and I've made myself accountable to him. He does ask the pressing questions.

She wants to move back home right now. It's only been a week.

We are attending the marriage builders weekend in San Franciso and I'm waiting to hear from a pastor to do some MC in a more intimate environment. Okay, this is too much! Just as I was typing the phone rang and it was the pastor I've been waiting to hear from. He has a time for us next Wednesday.

I'll check my email address in a few.

Titleist

hold your horses! right now? you mean she's moving back home right away?

crazy...wow, when the earth turns, it sure does!

okay: if she is coming home RIGHT AWAY, then there's no need for me to e-mail you...if there is any delay, then let me know...

BUT...I want to hear about what precautions you are going to put in place when she comes home...

what are the lessons learned from this?

what has the impact been on your kids?

how are you (collectively, not you stay-at-home dad!) going to deal with the kids and their trauma from this? yes, they will have experienced
trauma...

I'm not trying to be a wet noodle here...I want to ensure that your W is not panicking at being alone, rushing home, and then panicking at some new problem and taking off again...

kids MUST HAVE stability...this is really critical to their well-being...

T: if your W cannot see this, then she is still in the fog...if she cannot accept that their needs must come before hers when it comes to maintaining stability in the home...

re: your answer to the last question, that was pretty much what I was expecting to hear...not the accountability side of things, but that you don't feel like the same person that you were a few months ago...

I think this is what your W needs to hear, needs to understand and finally accept about you...that you have changed, fundamentally...

your patience has been a virtue to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...she will only accept this change in you over time...perhaps that time has come???

please let me know what happens...I will be waiting with bated breath <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...awed

P.S. how soon is the MB weekend?

Awed,

There will need to be a discussion concerning how we are going to proceed.

We talked yesterday about talking to the kids and letting them know that we are going to a counselor. The thought we want to convey is that every marriage experiences challenges and sometimes you need help to work through those times. We talked about using this as a teaching experience.

As far as her and the OM, NC will be an area in which I WILL NOT compromise. We both must understand that "three" truly is a crowd. As long as the A's are not in the past they continue to be our present.

She would like to move back very soon. She's reluctantly going to rent the apartment for another month. Reality is setting in partly due to the $1350.00 rent payment. I'm quite proud of her in that she is using this time to draw closer to God. She's spends the mornings in worship and prayer. I was amazed to hear her listening to Christian music again. This was a practice that stopped because it made her feel guilty about everything that has transpired.

It was nice to get an email from her today simply saying, "I was thinking about you... fondly". When talking to her, I can hear a genuine change happening.

We will have our first counseling session next Wednesday. The MB weekend is April 30th and May 1st. We will be staying at the hotel where the seminar is being held. The nice thing is it's only an hour drive. She's taken my copy of "Love Busters" to read.

I'm curious to read what you were going to send. If you don't think it's harmful to me right now please send it to me.

Hope to hear from you soon...

Titleist