I was curious to know the statistics of Plan A or B working. Which of the two has proven to be more successful?

I understand Plan B is for me, but curious if it brings about what we all desire, recovery of the marriage.

I was curious to know the statistics of Plan A or B working.
If you do them correct, they work great. (read on)

Which of the two has proven to be more successful?
What do you mean by successful?

I understand Plan B is for me,
Plan A is also for you and it should be done prior to Plan B.

but curious if it brings about what we all desire, recovery of the marriage.
That is what we wish to happen, but a recovered marriage is not necessarily the results of a good Plan A/B.

Both plans can be successful. This does not mean that the marriage WILL be saved.
Plan A/B DO give you the best chance to save it though.
They are designed to help YOU get through all of this in the best possible way, regardless of the outcome.

^^^

Hi, I'm no expert on this (haven't been in Plan B very long and have slipped up several times in beginning). But here's some info I read about the effectiveness of a plan B type course of action:

In the Divorce Busting book they call it doing a 180. That is if what you've been doing isn't working then you try the opposite approach. So if what you already tried was begging, promising you have/will change, trying to talk your wayward spouse into ending the affair... and it didn't work (of course), then you stop doing that and try the opposite approach. You back way off and eventually they will pursue you instead. The book said it doesn't always work BUT if your relationship is already headed for divorce and/or there's an affair, NOT doing a 180 will pretty much guarantee the end of your marriage. In this case, the 180 is referred to a the 'last resort' technique, and again it is stressed it may be your last chance to avoid divorce.

Also, (I think in the same book) there was a really good see-saw analogy: It said opposites are not necessarily attracted to each other - but created. When there's strong polarity in a relationship (like when one spouse feels trapped and thinks marriage is over but the other spouse doesn't want to give up) the partners have gotten into opposite positions (which is just a really weird way for the relationship to be 'balanced'). As long as one person continues to do all the worrying about what the affair/divorce will do the the children, work to save the marriage, reminiscing (sp?) about shared past, etc. the other partner doesn't have to. So you go over to their end of the see-saw, start agreeing with some of what they're saying. (Or at the very least, get off your end of the see-saw and stop doing all the worrying for two.) The other partner will then feel less extreme and more willing to gravitate towards the opposite viewpoint. A new balance can be reached. What you want them to do more of, you do less of.

I've also heard of 'going dark' (seen reference to that description here in the past and at another site - I think Divorce Busters). It sounds similar to the Plan B - you don't have any contact with wayward spouse until they end affair and are willing to work on marriage.

I can't find a copy of the "Love Must Be Tough" book by Dr. James Dobson in local bookstores, but read some excerpts from it online. It also suggests that the betrayed spouse should not pursue. And it said while there's no guarantee it will work, but if followed only about 5% will end up divorced.

Also, at another website (I think it was called 'How to Stop Your Divorce') there used to be several pages of do's & don't's along with explanations of why the pursuit approach fails.
It stressed that the wayward spouse will beocme more entrenched in their POV, resist you more, if you try to talk them into ending the affair, saving the marriage. It also suggested something like going to the other end of the see-saw. It was sort of like a Plan A attitude - no arguments, being friendly but casual, just agree with their silly fog-talk statements. (But I don't think that site got into anything like a Plan B with no contact?) The similarity was just more like don't pursue and don't argue. I took a lot of notes from that site and early on in plan B reading them often helped me resist calling my husband (the times I did resist LOL).

It's sort of weird but whatever I'm feeling at the moment on this emotional roller coaster: wanting to dump the jerk for the pain he's caused me and our daughters... or to save our marriage...
All I have to remember is to NOT CALL HIM!

Sometimes I feel scared because I can't meet his needs while I'm in plan B BUT I also can't love bust with no contact. And he can't hurt me further. And I've already tried doing it without Plan B (or with a weaker plan B) and I KNOW how ineffective and painful THAT was!

I think Plan B will be effective no matter what.
It will either help bring my husband home or it will help me get over him. IF I can continue to be strong enough to employ it. Either way I have a happy future to look forward to.

meremortal

Thanks for all of that. I am also in Plan B. Total darkness pretty much for 21 days now and counting. I wish the fog would clear, or my mind would clear one or the other.

NY

M, your explanation is so good.

Are you in Plan B now. Being in dark is it scary? I am feeling the pain all the time. I am really scared to go to Plan B. But reading what you post really give me some hope. Thanks.

I was curious to know the statistics of Plan A or B working. Which of the two has proven to be more successful?

Plan A seldom works to bring the WS back. The reason I know this is because of the THOUSANDS and
Thousands of threads I have STUDIED for the last
couple of years.

Plan B is much more successful in getting the WS to come back. Many people on this site will tell you that to have a successful Plan B that you need to do a good Plan A. However, in my study, I have seen no evidence of that really being a fact.
It just happens to be viewed that way because most people on this site do plan A because that is what they are told to do.

So to really know the truth to whether a plan B really works best with plan A, it seems to me that we would need to have an equal study of people who only do Plan B without plan A.

AAHHH, but there is another way to compare, if we really want to see what works the best to get a WS to come back.(I think this is what you meant by successful).....

I have seen quite a few WS's come on this site in the past couple of years. When they do come on here, many, if not most of them, have now had the tables turned on them, and are wanting to get back with their spouse.... I then study what happened in their situations and what the BS did that caused them to see the error of their ways....

What is very interesting is that in most of those cases, there actually was really no plan A or plan B.(because the BS isn't even aware of such a thing because they are not the ones on this site)..

I have noticed that it is almost always the same thing that happened..... The WS comes on here asking for advice on how to get the BS back. The BS had actually done something quite simple, but is actually VERY VERY effective... They have SIMPLY let go, and decided that they would NOT SHARE their spouse with someone else, and told the WS to either leave, or they were the ones to leave.... No plan A, No plan B.... just a simple ACTION that showed that they had enough SELF RESPECT, that even if they made mistakes in the relationship, they would not put up with infidelity.... And if the WS wanted to be with someone else, then so be it, but you can't have me too......

If you go back and check out the threads of the WS's who came on this site, you will see that this pattern is very evident. There is nothing that will pull a WS out of the "fog" faster, and have them WANT to work it out, than by quickly and firmly telling them that having an affair is a DEAL BREAKER, so if you want the OP, then either you go or I go, but I am NOT going to share you with another person... PERIOD...

Just my opinion that I have tried very hard to give only based on what I see on this site and other sites I have followed, as well as my own personal experience, and many of the friends I have seen going through a breakup or divorce over the past 20 or so years.....

This view usually raises the hair of a few STAUNCH plan A and plan B believers, but I have found that sometimes people want nothing to do with the facts and the reality of things. It does not mean I am against what this site stands for, but if radical honesty is supposed to be part of the Marriage Builders philosophy, then I am sure they would want my radical honesty on all issues.

There is nothing that will pull a WS out of the "fog" faster, and have them WANT to work it out, than by quickly and firmly telling them that having an affair is a DEAL BREAKER, so if you want the OP, then either you go or I go, but I am NOT going to share you with another person... PERIOD...
True, this can work.
However, most people who use this type of stuff are not necessarily ready to end the marriage if the affair doesn't end.
If the affair doesn't end, the bs goes back to begging, pleading, threatening, etc.

And then that sends a message to the ws that the bs is not really serious about what they say.
The ws will not believe the bs is really serious about trying to work out the problems. They think it is simply a ploy to get them back and nothing will really change.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

From logical thinking, I know letting go may work. But from my feeling side, it is really hard to let go. What if he never come back? How strong can I be to let go?

LNH,
For me, I think letting go will be (somewhat) easy. I personally want to be in an M that is built on openness, honesty, love. I don't have those things right now. I have to let go of what I have right now in order to gain that. In an ideal world, my WW will be the one to accomplish that with me. That is the approach I am taking. I personally am giving myself sometime to think.....but I see Plan B in my horizon. More and more each day, I know that I no longer want a "diseased" marriage....


Chris -CA123 (or any others), could you look at my post from yesterday, I left a question for you?

Thanks,
Ethan

Thank you all for your comments and views.

I had a long talk with my wife last night. For the first time she was able to share some of the pain she is feeling. Lots of talk about pain I inflicted early in the marriage. I owned responsibility and said I was sorry.

She doesn't know about Plan A or B. She said for me to stop meeting her needs now would signal to her that I'm still the same man who wasn't willing to meet her EN's. She said it would indicate that I was just doing all of this to try and get her to stay or work on the marriage. I felt that this would be the case. I told her that I wanted to give her the space she said she needed. I don't want to run to the rescue, because she said she wanted to know that she can make it by herself. She said that she doesn't want me to feel used. I told her that I'm now comfortable enough to tell her if I felt that she was just using me.

I'm going to continue in Plan A. I will watch out to make sure I'm not enabling cake eating!

She states that she feels like she is literally going crazy and close to an emotional break down. I think this is due to the fact that reality is finally setting in on her. She's hurt me, I've hurt her and now what the heck is she going to do going forward.

I'm open to anyone's thoughts on this matter.

Titleist

<small>[ March 26, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Titleist ]</small>

Hi Lost N Hurt:

"Are you in Plan B now. Being in dark is it scary? I am feeling the pain all the time. I am really scared to go to Plan B. But reading what you post really give me some hope. Thanks."

I am an plan B as much as I can be (husband absolutely refuses communication through a third party so I do have some contact with him about kids/finances). It is at times very scary to go dark BUT I absolutely have seen evidence that it DOES WORK! My husband has tried numerous times to break up 'for good' with the OW. But he isn't just having another one of his affairs... this is the midlife crisis and he thinks she is his 'only chance for happiness'... He was madly in love with her - no doubt addicted - I'm embarrassed for him because he's made such a fool of himself over OW (when I'm not hurt & furious about it LOL) Anyway, I KNOW it works IF I can fight my fears and resist tempation to contact him. AND when he shows improvement I have to be tough and insist on him proving what he's promising! My husband and OW broke up literally dozens of times and I give the techniques I learned here a LOT of credit for that. I failed to wait for the necessary proof though. So what I've learned (finally) is to be very careful with ending Plan B and starting recovery.

As far as feeling the pain goes, caving in to the fears (or even false recoveries) and ending Plan B too soon (only to have to go back to it anyway) is what has caused me the most pain. Not to mention it just drags this all out even longer. Plan B gets easier the longer you avoid contact. I usually felt the weakest right after breaking Plan B.

Don't forget that one of the purposes of Plan B is to protect yourself from getting hurt. The WS fog talk can get pretty nasty and hurtful. Plus they want you to argue with them so they can say 'see we can't get along'.

I also try to remember something I read somewhere about consistency. People base their actions on the way they feel BUT the opposite is also true: if they do or say something nice they will feel more loving towards you. A WS deeply addicted and not wanting to come home to the 'trap' of marriage wants you to love bust them so they can blame you for their affair. And then once they say and do those awful fog things they feel even less like ever coming home. It's almost as if they agree they've gone too far in hurting you and have fatally injured your trust. It's easier for them to just keep believing you deserved their cruelty and never have to ask for forgiveness. If you're in Plan B the overall contact including fighting is drastically reduced. So a lot of what was fueling their hatred for you (and their fear you could never forgive them NOW) is gone. So Plan B is a way to protect what love does remain - yours AND the WS's.

I did a Plan A also. I did love bust sometimes but overall it was a REALLY good Plan A. It helped that RIGHT when I started Plan A'ing my (slimmer) butt off the OW suddenly grew fangs and started love-busting my husband LOL. 'Things were never the same' between them and they 'realized they had no future together'... (so sad LOL) They started fighting like mad and breaking up about once a week, with the break-ups lasting longer and longer compared to the make-ups. She got VERY demanding and controlling (whoopee!)

I enjoyed Plan A (and so did my husband LOL). Doing a good Plan A is what helps some with my fear now. Don't get sucked into ending Plan B too soon because of fear that without you meeting his needs you can't compete with OW. He has your Plan A to measure OW's increasing demands against. And as one poster pointed out, even when there was no plan A that doesn't mean a Plan B type ultimatum won't work. He has to make a choice. All affairs reach a point when the fantasy ends. Don't worry that they will always be having fun together and they don't have any problems to spoil the fun. When I catch myself thinking about them I force myself to focus back on myself: how great I look now, all my hobbies and projects, all the good things in my life I can enjoy, and how it will be a monumental loss to him if he loses me!

Titleist:

I liked the reasons you gave for maybe needing to go to Plan B soon (realizing you feel like you're being used, she says she wants to make it on her own, etc.)

Plus you said:
"She's hurt me, I've hurt her and now what the heck is she going to do going forward."

From what I understand part of the reason to plan B is to protect what love remains, both yours and hers. You might have to go to plan B in order to prevent each other from doing further damage to each other and your relationship. She (and eventually you) will just feel more hopeless the more you hurt each other. I suspect I let my husband inflict too much hurt on me and my daughters before I started plan B. Now THEY don't think it's possible for the damage to ever be repaired.
So I think in my case we will end up divorced.

It's great you understand it's not supposed to just be like some sort of ultimatum to force them to choose. And even the part about not meeting their needs anymore is not done in vindictiveness or as a way to pressure them. Again, I think your reasons for not being able to meet her needs anymore (if/when you go t plan B) are great. They have to realize that it's no longer appropriate for them to expect you to meet their needs. You are more than willing to learn to meet all their needs, if instead they choose the OP who is not willing to try to do that (um needs your help to meet some needs in order for affair to continue). You are offering something the OP isn't. If the WS declines your offer any resulting loss or pain thay feel is their choice. You can say you worry about them and are sorry they made a choice that will cause them to suffer. I'm even starting to sometimes feel that I might be able to wish them well... someday... When my husband tried to make me feel guilty for the same thing I pointed out that if he was afraid she couldn't/wouldn't meet the needs I had been meeting than he was making the wrong choice. It was probably love-busting but I defended myself and pointed out it was his fear of HER inability or unwillingness to fulfill all his needs that was his real problem.

(I also sometimes pointed out her demands, ultimatums, and unwillingness to let him eat cake. That was probably love-busting too but at the time I failed to resist. He even agreed with me a few times that she wouldn't stand by him and didn't have the loyalty and love for him that I did. But, alas, he just 'loves her SOOOOO much'.... I secretly hope her boundary-setting got an angry response from him too.)

M, Thanks for your insigth. Sooner or later, i will have to go to Plan B. This can not last forever. I am hurting really bad.

i think that if there are still any doubts or confusion for what "plan" you are in then the best thing to do is get counseling from SH. I know that's what i'm going to be doing because i feel that there is just too many differences in my situation to really know what the right thing is to do. i had a yard sale today to try and get some money for the counseling. i made $280.00 on just stuff that i had bought/collected that had no real meaning to me and total disregard to what my H felt. so can't wait to get started on the counseling.

LNH -

Let's try a different approach on your whole Plan B thinking.

Perhaps I should put this on your thread, but I just thought of it now, so I'll just go ahead and be offtopic.

What are you getting out of being where you are? You firmly resist Plan B and all attempts to help you get to a safer place. So.... okay, let's work with that. What is it about where you are that feels so safe that you're not willing to leave it?

Oh, and to go slightly back on-topic, Keepmvn4wrd, that was the best description I've seen in ages, and exactly matches where I'm headed in my own thoughts. The people who come out of this the best are the ones who sit down with themselves (NOT their spouse) early in the process, look at their lives, and find clear and solid boundaries that they're willing to act on. "I will not share you. I am strong enough to live on my own and I will do that rather than sharing you." And then they act on it.

The folks here, the ones who are looking for a different/better answer are, and I was one of them, so scared of what'll happen to them if their marriage ends, that they can't stand to even consider leaving.

I was terrified of being abandoned....... right up until I left. At which point I discovered that I was still alive and that I COULD get out of the cage of a destructive marriage. In another cage that I knew was coming, but alive. (That cage was the one where my WP tried to take my daughter away from me if I didn't cooperate.) And now I'm mostly out of that cage, too, and very nearly free of the third one that I have to escape from. (The third cage is our joint finances.)

I think that's all the cages there are. When I leave that last one, WP will no longer have any power to try to force me to behave while she continues her destruction.

And at that point, I'll start calling her XP, even if that is an operating system!

Just J, I know what you mean. I know I know. I just can't put myself up to that. But pretty soon, I will be there. But thinking about him leaving is like cutting a piece of flesh from myself. That hurts a lot.

LNH:

I'm going to leave this up to Just J because she is excellent at Plan B and is your best possible advisor in this situation...before I leave though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , I'm going to write you my thoughts on your situation...

as I posted to you on that general thread I started under GQ II (I've bumped it in case you want to look again), I simply do not understand your statement that you are not currently in pain???

sometimes it is really clear to others what you are saying and doing...we don't have personal involvement in the situation, we are not emotionally affected by what is happening...

we have something you simply cannot have: 3rd party perspective...

LNH: your pain is obvious to everyone else...it is why you are getting such encouragement to move to Plan B...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But thinking about him leaving is like cutting a piece of flesh from myself. That hurts a lot </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but you are in such pain now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ...please help yourself...please listen to J...you are worth it, you know? take care of YOURSELF...awed

I don't know what i am thinking. I am trembling. I am shaking.

LNH,

From my experience, I can say two things:

1) Had I done a really good Plan B on 2/25 when I tried, I might have been feeling less pain by now.

2) However, I was NOT ready to do Plan B, but convinced myself I was, and I really blew it. If you truly don't think you're strong enough to maintain N/C with your WH, don't do it until you are.

LL