Whaler,

Ps> It's funny that you mention the "I'm grumpy" shirt

We went to Disney in December and my H got a couple of "Grumpy" mugs and I got a decal for my truck that says "Back off, I'm Grumpy", with a picture of Grumpy on it. Are you Phychic?

Dear M,

Glad you feel you can do the circles without input from H. You have apparently heard enough of his comments over the years, that you should be able to come up with some of his desired boundaries. No House Work for example.

What your husband is saying is quite discouraging. But your own self-confidence is what is important, and having your self-confidence based on factors independent of his words, actions or true, orn stated opinions is also important.

I have a college Age son who is ADHD-ODD. He lives at home, and when I see him, I ask, "Anything I can do to be helpful?" Anything I should think about changing?" He usually answers "NO." So even though he says "No." I have set up the dynamics of cooperation. I feel good about myself, and I have not raised any Oppositional Impulses, so that is my idea of a successful communication, in my frame of refernce.

Asking H is ther is anything you can change is nto necessarily to get him to answer, but rather to just get him thiking, adn set up the dynamics in the right way.

When my children were young, my wife sould cook food to suit the kids. What are your husband's favorite dishes? Have yhou gotten all his favoritge dish recipes from his Mom? Do you have a system to satisfy the kids and H with dinner, breakfast, lunch? My wife seldom cooks what I like. She ordinarily buys what is on sale, or what she thinks is good for me or what my son likes to eat. I recently bought some lasagna from Schwans Frozen Home deliver Service. Great tasting. Some men would never leave their wives bcasue their wives are great cooks. Eating out cannot compare to how some women preapre food for their husband's. (Not my wife) but some wives. You don't mention cooking, but I know what kids do to the menu.

You mention your husband has strange ideas and goes to meetings. I have never been to a Star Trek convention, but I have heard that people try to dress and act weird. Seems harmless to me. Is there some compromise on your husband's ideas and groups or meetings you can figure out? Ideas happen to be important to me. Maybe not to your husband, but maybe.

Regardless of whether your husband says "Yes," or "No," when asked if there is anything he would like you to do differently, you have set up your being open to suggestions, and you should feel good about yourself, as having offered to serve.

Blessings

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

You are very wise.

Cooking comment: I am 1/2 Italian. Need I say more. I always make every effort to have a nice meal on the table. I have asked my H for past 11 years is there anything special he would like for dinner, lunch, whatever and his reply is always "whatever you make will be great".

Since this happened whenever I would make one of his favorite meals/desserts he would say I am trying too hard and the only reason I am making these things is because of what happened. These are things I would make prior.

H worked overnight last night so I made his favorite dessert to share with his crew for Easter (on holiday's I always sent him with stuff). I gave him a piece to try on Friday, now prior he would melt at the taste and make these noises like he's never eaten before. Then come over and kiss me. On Friday he ate it and I had to ask him if it was all right and he just gave me the thumbs up.

Then, yesterday he forgot to grab the dish b4 work, I called his cell phone and reminded him. He came back and got them. So, I feel I am not good enough to be his wife, just his personal baker. (I was lieing down when he came back, didn't even see him)

As far as my H preferring to eat at home. That probably isn't the case for him. He is Army Reserve, spent time in Iraq in 90-91. He could eat an MRE and be fulfilled. Family meals mean nothing to him since he wasn't brought up that way, whereas I grew up always eating as a family. Waiting till eveyrone got home.

Meetings: The meeting are for the Fire Dept which he in on call in town, or other meetings are for the Army.

Book of four agreements: It's a Mexican Toltec Tribe Belief system. It's real intricate to explain. I have read a small amount, but I am not comfortable with it.

It talks about hell is what we live in everyday on earth.

The power of the word is very powerful.

Your worst judge is yourself. You have to be true to yourself, you have to love yourself and it guides you how to do these things.

I think it has some good points when you are reading it with your head on your shoulders, which my husbands isn't. He is taking it way out of proportions.

I guess it's a real popular book. I took the books away from him, I said I wanted to read them.

Regardless of whether your husbans says "Yes," or "No," when asked if there is anything he would like you to do differently, you have set up your being open to suggestions, and you should feel good about yourself, as having offered to serve.

I understand that, hard concept to adapt though. I have a bad habit of looking at how I would answer. I would never be as cold as he is and answer with a big "nothing". I may think about it and come back with a constructive answer. We go to MC appt. on Thurs. night to "explore our avenues" as my H puts it.

Hoppy Easter Whaler, hope the bunny is good to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Dear M,

Thanks for the Easter wishes, and Happy Easter to you and your family.

It helps to be psychic to try to be a married parent these days. Everyone has less than optimal days, and as family members, we should try to give people space to be grumpy once in a while. A family by definition is a forgiving structure. We just need to avoid the temptation to over-indulge ourselves with more than our reasonable share of Grumpy Days.

The first Law in the Boundaries book, is that you reap what you sow. The first suggested Value in Boundaries, is to Love God. This is similar to MB avoiding Love Busters, just a little more expansive on the positive side.

You might try to keep track of any Love Busters, or anything less than God Loving, toward your husband. See where the feelings are coming from. See what boundaries you feel your husband is failing to follow. Then figure out any boundaries that you could or should follow, that relate to the issue, so that you can sow better seeds in that area. I have viewed Lesson 3 on the Bouondaries video. The video is tracking the book, and not really adding material information, but the video etches the ideas further into my stubbornly resistant brain.

You mention refinancing, which is a good idea at this time, Spring 04. However, you don't mention your feelings on the family budget. Most divorces are caused by a failure of the family budget. What boundaries are you following on finances, and do you feel your husband is following good finacial boundaries? Any further boundaries you could enforce on yourself?

There are 3 month courses to become an X-ray technician or a Phlebotomist(Spelling), blood drawing technician. The three month course gets you a certificate with the State, and you can start work, somewhere $9 to $12 per hour, I guess. You can start back rubs at home. For a massage instruction video: Esalen Hospital Back Rubs You can use H as your practice dummy. He'll never figure out what happened.

Hospitals are usually hiring. A friend of mine missed a drug test appointment, and that really created an employment problem therafter. If you apply to a Nursing Aide job, keep track of the drug tst appointment time, and take a taxi, or whatever you have to do to get to the appointment on time. I guess a Taxi driver can babysit your children while you are inside, if necessary.

Your husband may not consciously acknowledge that you are a good cook, but 90% of thinking occurs sub-consciously. Since you are a good cook, I wouldn't worry about H going anywhere. Maybe H is just unhappy about something he feels you won't change your mind about. Maybe H talks about divorce, to get your attention.

You might just check with his mom still, and make sure you are not missing anything that might be giving you more power. One of the other Boundaries Laws is that the more you put into a marriage, the more you get out.

Why do you say your husband can't handle books of strange philosophies?

A sideways glance can communicate a disdain that can be read by H, and hurt or at minimum discourage, or lessen the affinity in the marriage. H does not have to be psychic to read sideways glances. Are you keeping track of your sideways glances, and their feelings of origin? Can you convert any to Love? It seems to me taht you can take an approach of not agreeing with strange philosphies, but placing a boundary on yourself, not to express disdain for the philosophies. I am trying to do that with my wife, who gets carried way with some sermons on the Christian Bible, and it is not always easy to keep the balance, between not entirely agreeing, and avoiding expressing disdain.

If your family supported striking H, then you have been unhappy with H for some time, and you have let your family know about it. Think back to what you have told your family, and try to see what boundaries you can work out on those issues. You might let your family know about LB's and the Boundary Principle of Loving God, so they can give you more constructive feedback, in addition to supportive comments.

You would like your husband to speak well of you to his family, so you might place a boundary on yourself, of withholding derrogatgory info on H, from your family. H can see the sideways galnces from your family members, and know what you have been saying about him.

Your goals seem to be to regain the affection you had in the marriage. What are your goals in Marriage Therapy? I have participated in individual, group and marriage therapy. There is a wide variation in approaches to marriage therapy. I have been with my wife to several counslors, but none of them were right on. The feelings after counseling were always more tension after counseling. If there was some log jam you were trying to shake loose, I could see the risk of the conflict created by Marriage therapy.

Your husband mentioned your pushing him away when you were caring for your daughters. You mentioned that you are not sure your husband can handle your daughters. I think you are better off getting on the same page as parents of your daughters. I think a parenting course is a much better way to build up affinity and affection, rather that marital counseling.

I remember reading some MB threads where couples split after marrige counseling. I looked to try to find them again, but did not find them. It's nice that your husband is willing to go to MC, but I see too much residual conflict built up, without enough basic foundation of affection, for MC to not be fairly risky at this time. You can build more trust with fewer LB's and more God Loving interactions. You have several days to think about cancelling the Thursday appointment. Maybe take some time to check out available Parenting courses, schools, churches, social Serivce agencies, private schools, school counselors, etc.

My wife was losing my affection over the past few weeks, and I noticed she had the attitude that her opinions on religion were of a superior value to my opinions. She was telling me that since she went ot church more often than I did, that her opinions were superior to mine. Actually, I think she was talking to her friends and cutting me down, to make herself feel more righteous, and then walking around the house like she knew best. She was talking about a religious idea, so I made a comment, and she dismisssed my interpretation as incorrrect. I asked her to re-phrase her comments, to indicate that we had a divergence of opinion, rather than that she was right and I was wrong. My affection came up over the next few days, as she started to treat me more as an equal, rather than stupid. I suggested a boundary for her of a divergence of opinion, short of my being wrong. Are you careful to avoid make-wrong statements, comments, ideas for H?

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

You might try to keep track of any Love Busters, or anything less than God Loving, toward your husband. See where the feelings are coming from

The feelings are coming from deep in my gut everytime my H says he was never in love with me and our marriage is over and that he HAS tried all these years. My feelings are coming from standing there and hearing my H point blank lie to my face, trip over his words and contradict himself when he swears that he has lied for 15 years and the first change he is making in himself is he took off the mask and only tells the truth now and how he isn't intentionally hurting me.

FAMILY BUDGET Before all this, we lived within our budget. My husband never ever wanted anything to do with finances although I would ask him on occasion to get involved. H always said I did a really good job. Since all this happened my H spends money (for toys for the house, ie..new TV, Camcorder, digicam, etc..) like it's water. He has really been cranking in the overtime so it's still within our budget, but that's with putting nothing aside anymore.

I am trying to let him get this out of his system a little more before I mention that our checkbook is running low. His big thing is I can't control him anymore, so I am letting him have a little fun, he has worked a lot of hours since November.

Thanks for the job info. Those are fields I was considering. The pay is pretty low though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I work 2 days a week on salary right now and make twice that for 2-7 hour days and I work from home on rare occasions. There's no room for more hours at my business and I get paid so well because I took over 2 full time jobs and successfully do it in 14 hours a week

Maybe H is just unhappy about something he feels you won't change your mind about. Maybe H talks about divorce, to get your attention.

H's biggest complaint is he never was in love with me to begin with. He "fell in love" with this other girl which I believe opened up those new love feelings, butterflies, whatever you want to call it and now he's comparing his current feelings he has for me to this homewrecker. He says it's all over with OW. I have tried to explain that those "new" love feelings don't last, they turn into a committed love that can grow when nurtured in a marriage.

H says only way our M will work is if MC shows him how to fall in love with me again. I have tried to point him in the direction of MB site, he won't hear of it. Feels falling back in love, or falling in love with me period is impossible. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Why do you say your husband can't handle books of strange philosophies?

To know my H is to know that he gets very dramatic about things, and when he puts his mind to something he will take it to the far extreme. It's hard to explain. A stupid example is when he gets a common cold, you might think he is dying, he goes out and buys every cold remedy available and then stands around sniffling in saying "I think I have pneumonia again (he had it back in 95'), I think I have bronchitis, maybe it's legionieres disease" And he staggers off to the doctor crying to him. He went to see the doctor once because his toe hurt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I went with him and the doctor was cracking up. Maybe those are bad examples but he is overly dramatic.

A sideways glance can communicate a disdain that can be read by H, and hurt or at minimum discourage,

Point taken, I am a big eye roller, bad habit, I am working on

If your family supported striking H, then you have been unhappy with H for some time, and you have let your family know about it

My family has supported me through this since 1/06 and know the emotional abuse H has been putting me through. The things he has said I haven't even begun to touch in these posts, I could literally write a book. My family also knows I have carried the burden of our house 4 bedrooms, 15 acres of land goats and chickens, my job, my kids (they are NOT a burden), myself, my H and his careers, job, military, fire Dept. My H works, period. And I am not trying to belittle that in anyway. But I keep a spotless house, beautiful kids, nice yard, animals clean, I keep up my own appearance, finances, etcc... all by myself and haven't really made a point of it until now to "complain" about it.

My family has said they have watched and admired me all these years for doing what I needed to do knowing my H was no help, so that's why they sort of "supported" me giving him a good ole fashioned whoopin`

We have talked about parenting classes, it's funny you mentioned that. I am going to look into it. H is going away for military for 2 weeks so we can't start until he gets back anyways.

I asked H last night if there is anything I can change to help improve the marriage. And as you guessed. H said "nothing"

Dear M,

In giving you my ideas, I have reviewed a number of things I should be changing for myself. I don't have any more ideas right now.

I feel that if you occasionally ask, "Is there anything I can change to make things better?" it will put things in the proper context. The fact that you can ask the question, shows that you are pretty healthy yourself, I think.

It seems you might need some boundaries on spending by H. There is POJA, I need to work on that with my wife also.

In my experience, Parenting classes have a better chance of restoring euphoric love, than a marriage counselor. It is difficult not to get into a blame contest with a marriage counselor. My rules for marriage counseling were, after several unhappy experiences:
1. Don't criticise my wife in session.
2. Do not accept anything a marriage counselor suggests, in session. Agree to consider it later.
3. Take a pad of paper, and write down any suggestions that the counselor makes. Sometimes a suggestion needs to be modified a little.
4. Let the marriage counselor know if I feel that anything the counselor has said makes me angry or miffed. Let the counselor have it. Yell at the counselor, but not my wife.

The lesson I watched last night, Boundaries, discusses Value No. 2, which is Love Your Spouse. Cloud and Townsend speak of Agapee, which is a love similar to the love that God has for us. It is like the second commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your spouse as you love yourself. Euphoric love should happen between a H and W on occasion, but the cement is the Agapee.

In ODD, consternation of others is the goal of the ODD individual. You have mentioned some things by which your husband obtains attention, over-reacting. Your being upset about your husband saying he never loved you, is attention and consternation. You may want to review how your reaction is fitting into behavior by H, as a reward for continuing the behavior. If consternation appears in your features or movements, when H says he never loved you, there may be a habit getting set up, of his getting a reward for saying that. What kind of response can you come up with that is not biting into his reward system? "I'm sure that many married people would like to have a marriage where euphoria is the order of the day."

I'm reminded of a scene in Fiddler on the Roof. The older parents have arranged a good marriage for their daughter to a well-off butcher. Their daughter says she is in love with a young, struggling student. In puzzling over the situation, the couple ask each other if they love each other. What was striking to me, is that it seemed to be the first time they had considered the question, of love. They had just been working hard together, as H and W, without time to consider whether they loved each other.

I have not mentioned my thanks for your husband's service to the country, so let me commend your husband for his service, and you for the difficulties as the wife of a serviceman.

Blessings

What kind of response can you come up with that is not biting into his reward system? "I'm sure that many married people would like to have a marriage where euphoria is the order of the day."

When H says he never was in love with me, I react like I was just punched in the gut. It takes the wind right out of me, I get very sad and tell him how out of all the words in the world, those are the ones that hurt the most.

Maybe from now on when he says that I should just walk away, end the conversation right there. What do ya think?

Dear M,

Maybe try, "I am trying to improve my comments and demeanor to be more supportive of my husband, and look at things from being considerate of everyone's boundaries. If you could set up a boundary for yourself, to avoid telling me that you never loved me, I would feel better. Could you put up that boundary for me?"

But I think you have the idea. I was upset with my wife making comments during arguments that she was going to be stepping out on me. A friend of ours told me, "Just don't bite into that. You can't control what she does anyway, so why get involved in an argument about that?"

If H is motivated to seek attention and consternation, then if he is getting rewarded for poor behavior, then the poor behavior will tend to continue, as long as it is rewarded. Recognizing what is a reward for H is important, because then you can try to give attention to behavior that is good for you.

If you make note of the things that bother you, over which you get upset, then you can work on ways to avoid getting upset about important things, to you, so you don't feed into an oppositional person's reward system

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

The reward system thought is a good one, never thought of it that way. When I get upset my H says he's just telling the truth.

My H is very cold and distant with me, the look in his eyes are like he can't even stand me anymore.

I have been putting on a happy face, trying my best to stimulate conversation, and I get the same cold reply.

After our last arguement regarding our marital status Sunday night when I really showed him my backbone is back (in other words I didn't cry very much) yesterday he seemed warmer to me. The ending of the arguement was me saying that there is no way the girls and I are losing the house, which he said fine to. Then I told him that I wasn't ready to throw 15 years, which is half my life out the window. I told him that the way he is acting it's like the past 15 years meant nothing to him, and he said they did mean something to him.

I started crying saying again, that I'm not ready to just throw 1/2 my life out the window. He hugged me and we ended it there and went to bed.

I'm sick of this game where I constantly have to adjust myself, keep doing 180's to get him to warm up to me. I am getting dizzy.

Dear M,

One possible goal of Marriage therapy could be to simply let your husband get in touch with the various aspects of love that rise, peak and level off in a marriage, in general, and in his in specific.

There may be some things H is withholding from telling you about what he wants, or would like from you. There may be some issues that he is embarrassed to talk about. A marriage counselor may be able to draw him out. If you go to counesling, you may simply say, "I am trying to do better, but I think there are some things my husband would like from me that he is not letting me know about." Then you could let the counselor turn her attention to your husband. You could repeat that idea whenever the counselor turned to you, and avoid getting into blaming your husband. There must be something behind his inconsiderate approaches to you.

Just because a statement is true, does not mean the statement is not inconsiderate or hurtful, or less that optimally encouraging. One boundary that might be nice is not to have hurtful or inconsiderate remarks outside of a problem-solving session.

Just because something is not clearly verbally abusive in its wording, does not mean the comment is not hurtful or inconsiderate. You might say, &#8220;Please avoid inconsiderate remarks, unless we are in a private, problem-solving discussion. Should we arrange or schedule a problem solving discussion?&#8221; Another phrasing is the "I Message." "I feel upset when you say ..." "I feel sad when you say..." "I feel insulted when you say..." "I feel deflated when you say ..."

Another phrase that may be less than encouraging for you, might be, "We are emotionally divorced."

For discussions and resources on verbal abuse, you might do a search on a woman who struggled with a verbally abusive husband, and gave a number of helpful references in her posts. jade72, No 26189. You might do a search on her Number and look at her posts to see if any of her comments or references are of assistance to you.

I found the ISBN no. for Boundaries in Marriage in paper back:

BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE (1999), by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back: ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and Paper Back: ISBN 0-310-24314-9 (Soft Cover) Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49530.

I wish I had faster acting advice for you. I have not taken time to go back through all your posts, so I may be missing some things. I'm behind in some things I should do for my own marriage, so I'll sign off now, and check back later.

Blessings

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

Again, you pulled through with very good advise. I will print out this last post and practive for MC meeting.

Whatever you are reading, you seem to be absorbing it well.

But I also find myself able to give others good advise in writing, but when it comes to the real emotions of living with my H, I end up not being able to follow my own good advise.

I'm Italian and Polish, with that kind of blood raging through me no wonder I have a hard time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear M,

How did the MC session go? To the extent you were able to avoid particpating in a blame exchange, you should probably count that as a success.

Cloud and Townsed point out that ther is a difference between the discomfort of personal growth, and the unnecccary pain of things that are just hurtful. You husband has some peronsal growth potential, so there will probably be some discomfort with that growth, so you might want to plan to give him some emotional distance for the next few days, as he settles down.

Blessings

Things went awful!! I married a pathalogical liar and I am so embarrased of myself.

He doesn't want to work on the marriage, says he went because he promised my mother back when this all started. He says I emotionally abused him all of these years, sucked the happiness right out of him, he was never in love with me, was afraid I would hurt myself if he didn't marry me, that all of his marriage proposals and professions of love while in Desert Storm was his way of having a connection with the homefront, he basically used me all these years because he was afraid of being alone and the list goes on and on.

He thinks he's being a good Dad and a big man by agreeing to still live with me and the kids.

He hates the term of having his cake and eating it too, says that has nothing to do with it.

All he does is go back to the past and pick out every misspoken word or unappropriate action I ever did. When I try to bring up good points he'll agree for about 2 seconds but then think up of another bad thing that might have immediately followed the good.

He wants to cohabitate, no affection allowed!!

He admits to having gotten "emotionally" involved with two girls, but that's over. One girl wanted to get physically close to him and she has a history of hurting herself and my husband was afraid to say no to her because he was afraid she would hurt herself. My H says that's the point that he realized that he married me because he was afraid I would hurt myself (to explain, about 14 years ago, my H put his fist through the wall because I woke him up and I grabbed a handgun and ran out of the house, he chased me down. I don't have a suicidal past, that was a single instance)

Does that make any sense? He didn't realize it at the time, it took him 14 years and another girl that was known to hurt herself to come to that conclusion?

Everything is about HIS happiness. When I try to bring up the kids happiness he reverts it back to himself.

I asked him where am I to go for my needs, affection, sex, ya know, the stuff I should go to him for. His reply is to do what I choose to do, just don't go to him for it.

Help me out here my wise Whaler. I hope you reply soon. I am at the bottom of my barrel here.

Dear M,

I have read your post, and I can understand that your not feeling real chipper. But MC is rough, particularly for a few days after a session. There is the pain of personal growth, and there is the pain in helping a loved one grow.

It sounds like some important issues got discussed, and you did not lower the hammer on him, so you can think of the next approach over the next few days, just let things settle a little. I will cogitate while I take my son's car in for repairs that he is too busy to schedule himself. Amazing.

I am on my second viewing of Cloud and Townsend. My wife was watching the video with me last night. She seems interested in the concepts.

Blessings

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear M,

I have been trying to avoid giving you actual advice, but rather giving you options to further your goals, as I understand your goals from the information you give me.

But let's take a look at our options in an orderly manner, and I will try to raise some questions, that should lead us to a fuller exploration of your options.

Is there another appointment set up with the MC? When is that? Has H said he would go again?

What suggestions has the MC given in each session? As sessions progress, the MC suggestions may be more on target. List the suggestions she made for you and H. You may not wish to post all the suggestions, but you should have your list, as some things may not seem right for you now, but later you may see that the MC had beginnner's luck.

What books tapes and videos have you obtained? The goal of my input is to build a foundation for you, so that you can feel that you are operating from a base of strength, not just my suggestions.

What are the perspectives of your various support group members? You have some of your relatives on your side. What are there persepctives?

How have we defined all the problems? How we define the problems is important, as we need to choose a few to work on. Defining problems is also important to designing plans for attempting solutions.

What options exist for working on each problem, and which plans will help with the greatest number of important problems?

I still think your biggest bang is going to come from a parenting course. Have you been able to find any schedules? Above anything else, I would spend time to find some conventient for you.

If you can coordinate better with H on your daughters, everything esle will flow more smoothly. Your husband's desire for Zing love is immature, as that is not the love of a committed parent. Zing will come and go.

Let's look at your term, "Pathological Liar" There are several aspects of H's lies. One lie you suspect is about the EA. Many different types of men have told or lived falsehoods about affairs. You have not told me that you are certain that H is close to rehabilitated. One question that may be important for you, is how far does H have to go to become a reasonably good husband, for you, and how much effort do you have to put forward, and how much pain do you have to endure?

H is apparently manipulating the truth, or in denial, about the issues of Love. I'm not sure why, and I am not sure at what level of untruthfulness he is operating. If in fact H is a pathological liar, then he might be difficult to rehabilitate. Cloud and Townsend like to use the term Immature for selfish people. You mentioned that your husband is eating cake. Cloud talks about various types of maritial conflicts. The type of conflict determines what the proper response is by the other spouse. One view is that your husband is entirely wrong, and then enduring the pain of assisting in his personal growth would be an act of love.

Another type of marital problem is where one partner is largley wrong, but the other partner plays a small role in the pattern of the Wrongdoer. Cloud suggests looking carefully, to see if there is any way that there is any innterplay, even though there is a clear wrongdoer.

You mention that your husband has a good many complaints about you. There is only so much you can change, at any one time. You are initiating counseling, you are trying 180 Degree Divorce Busters, and you are enduring considerable difficulty with your husband's inconsiderate remarks. Do you feel you have the right mix of efforts? And for each effort, do you have people who are supporting your direction, from whom you can derive encouragement?

Cloud talks about not protecting our spouses from the consequences of their repeated actions/inactions. Are there consequences that H should be facing at this time, which are logically related to his immature actions/inactions, from which you are protecting him? Marriage is a contract. If one party breaches a contract, there are consequences. If you had it to do over, what would you have put in a pre-nuptial contract? What are the options in your state, for a contract to be signed, which would control some aspects of the marital relationship, and remmain in effect even in the event of divorce?

In other words, Marriage is a contract, and your husband is not fulfilling some asepcts of the contract, like being affectionate. H is using inadequate excuses for breaching the contract. He made a deal, and now he is backing out, to a certain extent. Is there a situation for justice to operate, or should we rely on rehabilitation?

Blessings

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Well, H is on his way for his 2 weeks for the Army.

We had an o.k. night, watched T.V., fell asleep, woke up and went to bed.

He gave me an extra big hug before leaving and said I love you.

I know he loves me, he's just not in love and he wants to explore his avenues (see if the grass is greener on the other side). That hurts

He likes the attention women give to him. He says the woman he fell in love with filled a void in him he didn't even know he had and it's something I can't fill because I am not her.

I can sort of understand that. When I look back at past relationships b4 my H, I had some guys that treated me like a queen, and filled my EN's, but it just wasn't there to fall in love with them, something was missing in my heart.

But with my H, whom I can't really say filled my EN's at the beginning nor all these years, there was just something there, can't explain it. Even after all he's put me through, I still love him and am still in love.

It's when I honestly look at the above statements that I have doubt in my mind. The doubt lies in no matter what I do, how hard I work that my H will never fall in love with me, I will never fill that space in his heart. I am so scared.


Whaler:
I go alone next Thurs, H is away. H agreed to go to MC for co-parenting therapy.

MC suggestions: That we work on our marriage. H hardly lets MC get a word in. H sits there and drudges up the past even though MC does interrupt him and say that doesn't do much good. H say he doesn't see "us" happening so he doesn't have motivation to work on marriage.

BOOKS/TAPES: HNHN, LOVEBUSTERS, SURVIVING AN AFFAIR, THE DIVORCE REMEDY, DR PHIL RELATIONSHIP RESCUE.

OP perspectives: They all agree that the way H is acting is a total opposite of the man they have known all these years who has only expressed the deepest love for me.

Problems: I'll list top 3 that i know
1. H not in love with me ->All I can do is follow Plan A. I am having trouble with boundery of him contacting other women. I even suggest comprimise of he can contact via phone but not in person. He refused, says that's controlling him.

2. H hates negative comments ->I have stopped venting to him which I don't see as fair. Everyone needs to vent about the car that drove too slow, stuff like that. But that was easy for me to stop

3. H doesn't want to be controlled ->ie. In past H would want to go out for beers after maybe not being home all week, I'd ask him to stay home with me, he would even though he didn't want to and that built up resentment. H says knowone will ever control him again -> I have let him do as he pleases for now but that's not going to be a long term approach.

how far does H have to go to become a reasonably good husband, for you, and how much effort do you have to put forward, and how much pain do you have to endure?
H would have to recommit to marriage and stop contact with OW. I will and have been putting 200% effort. Pain? I have endured the most harsh words a person could ever say to another from my H. Not sure how much more I can take. Only time will tell/.

enduring the pain of assisting in his personal growth would be an act of love.

VERY TRUE!! I am trying to help my H, I have asked him how I can help him but he doesn't feel nor see a problem with him. I don't know how to help him besides just to love him, but it's hard to love from the distance that my H has put between us.

Are there consequences that H should be facing at this time, which are logically related to his immature actions/inactions, from which you are protecting him?

Oh yes, I feel his mother, boss and military superiors should be informed. But I know without a doubt that will build a TON of resentment with my H and he claims he has a lot of resentment towards me as it is. So actually those consequences would be put on me also. I feel that any consequences I could apply to my H would come back on me and girls also, ie: Telling him to move out would produce financial consequences on the girls and I.

A predivorce contract cost money, a lot plus H won't sign one.

H is not fulfilling marital contract because he says he has emotionally divorced me and our marriage is over in his eyes.

Whaler: I need to sincerely express my gratitude for the time and patience and thought you have applied to my situation. There's a special place in heaven for unselfish people as yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear M,

I caught a radio show the other day, with Cloud and Townsend, New Life Ministries. You might check the times for your area, to see if you might be able to listen. Also, I think tapes are available of the radio shows. I was told that one couple likes to play the tapes over and over. The tapes have various problem salving approaches laid out, so each time you listen to the tapes, your new problems will have a fresh perspective. The video tapes and books were $66.00 from Walmart.com. My wife has indicated that she will listen to the tapes again, with me. I even asked my wife to tgry to do a better job of supporting my shifting ideas, to which she gave a verbal agreement.

You state the problem from the perspective as that your husband has a hole which you are unable to fill. There is some logic to that perspective. You can understand the concept of Less Zing, and More Zing.

I suspect that your definiton of happiness and success has been tied to pleasing your husband, and receiving his WTG's (Way to go), from H. I suggest that you structure a system of experiencing happiness and success, by recognizing your relationship and communication skills, in addition to your radiant beauty(MB Photo). You can't force someone to love you. But you can do a big part to create an atmosphere where affection can be encouraged and nurtured. I suggest that a more solid place to find happiness, is in making progress in your relationship skills. Whether or not H is able to take advantage of your skills, and your increase in skills, is not our problem, it is THEIR problem.

I am suggesting that you delinieate what problems of H you are taking on, and hand them back to him. If H married a woman with less than maximum zing, and had children with her, that is H's problem, not your problem. It is H's job to figure out what to ask his wife for, to attempt to increase any sagging interest in the marriage.

The other problem of H's that I suspect you could release a little, is the care of your daughters. I suggest you list out what tasks that H could do, on which days, suggest that H take responsibility for the task. By taking on all normal maternal responsibilities, you may be missing a chance to shirk some of the jobs over to your husband, giving him more of a feeling of partnership in the parenting of the children.

This will probably be difficult for you, as you are now doing everything for your daughters while H is on duty. I suggest that you rationalize whatever it is that the girls need, and resolve that you are going to refuse to lift a finger on the issue. "H, could you make sure the girls brush their teeth before they go to bed?" And resolve to do nothing yourself for the time when H is home, reasonably available. Resolve that your daughter's teeth will fall out, before you ask them to brush their teeth. Hold H responsible. Get him involved. This will go against all your maternal instincts, and you will be torn with visions of your daughers never being asked on a date because H did not get them to brush their teeth, but stick to the issue your choose. Get H involved.

I suspect that you might do the laundry. I remember an MB post by a dissatisfied wife, who resolved that her husband would be re-wearing dirty shirts, unless he started washing his shirts himself. She had a particular place where she stack her husband's laundry, and showed him where she kept the soap, and just let her husband's laudry stgack up, and after some sharp comnplaining, he finally started doing his shirts himself.

I have a chair in the laundry room, where I stack up clothers that don't seem productive for work, to wash, particularly for my college kid. I am very upbeat and pleasant about it. "I am washing a load of dark clothes, I have room for a pair of Levis. Do you have anything you would like washed?" But the pile sits there otherwise.

I am concerned about H's spending time alone in his room. There are wide differences of opinions and feelings on ideal boundaries on MB threads. Here is a cooperative approach post: MB thread on diverse views It's not something to really discuss here, it is just an idea for you to research on your own.

If H avoids inconsiderte remarks, he gets clothes washed. If inconsiderate remarks are made that day, H's clothes sit. In other words, get something halfway logically connected going.

One reason I bring up the idea of a Prenuptual contract, is to ask you to think of extra things that you are doing for H, and if H is being inconsiderate, then you could cut back on some extras.

Blessings

<small>[ April 17, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

M- I saw your picture on the picture thread. You are quite beautiful - dump this loser and get someone who deserves you. Whoops, I forgot I am on MarriageBuilders.

Seriously, try to make your life nice, and take care of yourself. He is not the whole world.

Dear M,

Believer may be correct.

If your goal is to try to work things out with H, I will continue to try to give you ideas toward that end. There is certainly a conceptual end point, where the marriage will be more heartache than it is worth. I don't feel I have enough info to know when or where the endpoint is right now. Others may know better than I am able to see. I'll try to be suportive whenever you feel you are at the endpoint.


Blessings

<small>[ April 17, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

M, I see my Wh's picture in your H. I don't know why I still want him. Maybe I was anticipating things will change if he does come back. At this moment, i even have no one to work with.

Did you read the book name; How the one of you can put two of you togehter. by Suan Page. It may help.