I think I am folding - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I already broke Plan B today. I know, I am weak.

I asked, no I begged, one last time for us to go to counseling. For the love of these kids and so I can look back and say I tried everything.

H refused, says he does not want to be married to me anymore.

Brought up every little and big past mistake I ever made and said after each mistake he tried and it just came to the point where he doesn't want to anymore.

So, I have come to the emotional divorce acceptance and am thinking of asking him to move back (more for financial reasons on my part) and we will co-habitate.

During this co-habitation I will stick to the best Plan A (leaving out the sex part, he won't even kiss me on the lips) and hopefully he will someday see that I am not re-living the past mistakes and fall in love with me again.

What do you all think? (Or do I even dare ask)

Please stick to Plan B. You will not save your marriage by having him back and still seeing OW.

He says EA is over. The OW was married also.

He has phone contact with multiple "woman friends".

He's real persistant that our marriage is over.

In the past, I had threatened to leave him over stupid arguements (he never let me know he took me seriously, I never left), I was controlling (although didn't realize it until I read all this MB stuff) and he let everything roll off his back.

Now, these are the things he's bringing up as his reason for quitting even though I want to go to counseling to help avoid doing my past BIG mistakes.

Financially, I can't do it alone. Physically, we own 15 acres of land and a house, two kids that adore our house, so I need him for that too.

If he comes back I can go back to school and earn my degree so I can support the kids and I someday without him.

If he comes back I have a handle on what these kids are exposed to.

See my points?

M, I see what you are thinking. I have no idea what to do. But did you consel with SH. Maybe he can give you a better idea.

No, I can't afford that unfortunately. I have been putting away every extra dollar I can in the event my H leaves us high and dry.

I keep thinking that if I look as attractive as possible (Plan A)

and if I make my errands, plans with friends, or go to school on his nights off then he will not have time for an A or to pursue any other relationships because he will need to take care of the kids, in the safety of our own home.

Summer is coming and the girls and I go on a lot of outings, well previously I tried to schedule them when H was working. My thinking back then was that when he is home, he has a lot to do around the house and also he never really enjoyed our outings. So I THOUGHT I was relieving stress from him

Well, this summer he will be invited on them all, personally by his daughters.

m01069,

You have multiple theads and I missed this one ... how did it go ?

-rh-

My vote is to stay in Plan B. Financial strain has to be a big worry and I am struggling myself on how to keep up with the yard and house so I see your points. It just seems that if you back out of Plan B now you will pay an even greater price emotionally. If your anything like me you will regret breaking the plan later down the road. I am trying my best not to act on any thoughts unless they have stayed constant for at least 5 days.
Jenn

Well, spoke with H last night. We started the whole talk about divorce.

I told him our girls biggest concern was losing the house.

He said he couldn't promise that we could stay <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

H started talking about just giving me the bare minimum the court would allow, splitting everything else 50/50.

How fair is that??? He walks away, scott free, gets 50%. I walk away with 2 girls with 50%.

I laid it on the line of the dollar amount the girls and I would need to have to live in the house, that he'd have to pay my health insurance (his company pays now as long as we're married) and anything less would be deadbeat...

He asked "why can't we just live together??"

I said "not going to happen"

End result..He agreed to see MC again to explore our avenues,

I am very skeptical of his intentions, but it will also buy me some time to go back to Plan A, do it right this time, save some more money and talk to my lawyer.

H moves back today under the guideline that we see MC together.

Something is not right here. Are you sure he is not having a PA?

I am not sure of anything anymore. If there is a PA it's 6 hours away.

There are some tips at this site which helped me specifically with the pleading, telling my husband "I've changed", trying to talk him into ending his affair and coming home:

http://www.stopyourdivorcebook.com/

It specifically addresses the WS's need to not be pressured, and how telling them you've changed, but then telling them you want them to do what you want (end affair & come home) proves you haven't really changed in the area of trying to control them. The more you try to pressure (or even convince) them - the more they resist.

It's a polarization problem that increases the more you campaign for what you want.

I also read something in the Divorce Busting book about a seesaw analogy. The more one spouse advocates one POV the more the other spouse is free to express the opposite POV. As long as you do all the worrying about how a divorce will hurt the kids, for example, the less the WS has to think about it. And the more you let them know you want to save the marriage, the less they have to worry about protecting it.

Actually the Stop Your Divorce internet site and the Divorce Busting seesaw analogy both suggested enthusiastically agreeing with the WS! If you take up their POV there's no reason for them to resist you so much and they end up worrying about everything they were able to count on you to obsess over before.

I can't quite bring myself to agree with my husband on many things though and I'm not very good at bluffing. I can't pretend I don't care what this is doing to the kids. But I did reduce complaining to him about how he was hurting our daughters. So one day he asked me how they were doing emotionally (VERY RARE inquiry). And instead of telling him I (politely) asked why he wanted to know (because if it had no effect on his choices - why ask?) AND I told him I didn't want to talk about it. I said I was already doing all I could do to help my daughters deal with it, and I was just trying to put it out of my mind as much as possible so it wouldn't worry me anymore. (I have severe hypertension that my doctors say is from all the stress). AND I todl my daughters to not complain to me as much about their father. I assured them I would still listen to them and give them support but they needed to talk to their father themselves and not depend on me to relay their complaints for them.

Well, he's still making choices that hurt his daughters but he's showing much more evidence of feeling shame & guilt. And he has admitted that now that he and the other woman realize they're hurting others, 'things have never been the same between them' (so sad). It wasn't MY complaining to him about how he was hurting his daughters that ruined their fun though: His daughters started complaining more directly to him and I stopped shouldering the total burden of the worrying about it. I slip up plenty and go back to what doesn't work. Boy they aren't kidding when they tell you what works is counter-intuitive LOL

meremortal

Actually, I had purchased that book before I found MB site.

It's a real hard concept to apply. I fear that my H would interpret my actions as not caring, which is one of his many complaints of the past. That I would get busy in my life, kids and not have time for him. (He didn't word it exactly that way, he gave more specific instances).

Now, I am trying to give him all the attention I can and now he's pushing me away.

Now, I know how bad he was hurting. Difference is he didn't voice it to me before as I am voicing my hurt to him now.

H has said he doesn't want to spend time with me. Keeps urging me to "go out". WHich I did last night, went clubbing with a friend. H didn't ask me anything about it, not even if I had a good time. I was all decked out when I left, he didn't say a word.

I didn't reveal any details to him either on where I went or what we did.

I emailed H that awesome letter by Trueheart. H didn't email me back anything.

I'll let ya know if he responds.

I just realized it's daylight savings time and I am so late right now, shows where my head is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I hate my H. H is spreading all over town how he is going to divorce me, and that he was never in love with me.

I told him he is the meanest most hateful person I have ever met and if this is the way he treats his wife then I would hate to see how he treats his enemy.

M, please don't LB. You can be the nice person. People will see that.

lostnhurt

Thanks for saying that I can be a nice person, you are right.

I knew what I said was an LB while I was saying it and at the time I didn't even care. Not really sure I care now, even though I know I should.

H is so concrete that M is over. He didn't read my email, said he wanted to play video game. He'll never read it.

H said today that his EA ended in July and it had nothing to do with current happenings. He's been thinking about this for years he says.

H agreed to MC to work on us "living together", he suggested he move out until our first appointment which isn't until week after this. I didn't reply to him.

He keeps saying "no one will ever control me again"

(Well buster, the court will if we get a D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Called H at hotel last night. He wasn't in yet. One of the "girls in question" who works there answered the phone. I was polite asking for her to give him a message to call me.

H didn't call. I waited 1-1/2 hrs, when I knew definately he was there (or should be) and I called back. He didn't answer the phone.

I called H this am when I knew he was due to get up and asked him why he didn't call me back.

H says "I don't know, I just didn't"

I started crying and said I had to go. H kept me on the phone telling me to stop crying.

I said to H "you know, this is affecting more than just yourself. I can make you happy, I just need the chance". H said he had to get ready for work.

I am so sad....

H has been talking about divorce.

I can't believe any guy out there that calls himself a MAN that would willingly divorce the mother of their kids, rip the only house they know out from under them and only give them the bare minimum the law states to live.

This is what my H is willing to do for us.

Thank you dear husband of mine for giving me 15 of the best years of my life and flushing down the f-in toilet in 30 seconds of Jan. 6 without a warning. You are SUCH A MAN!!!

Thank you dear husband for going around our small town saying you are divorcing me, playing victim to justify your affair so now I can't even show my face.

Thank you for making me want to move to another state with these girls to start over so they don't have to hear the whispers and rumors when they go to school.

Than you for not even acknowledging me as your wife, emotionally divorcing me until you file papers. Thank you for taking my self esteem and flushing that too.

Please hang in there and stick with us. You are very early in this.

I think your WH is having a PA somewhere here. All of his words, and actions point to that. It could be the reason he is being so cold to you and rewriting the history of the marriage.

Please start taking good care of you. He is not going to be of any help right now. Also the more you cling to him, the more he is going to move away from you.

Put him on the back burner until you are feeling better and are stronger. Are you taking any anti-D's? Hugs from California.

believer

I can always count on you, thanks.

Yes, I have been on Anti D Lexapro for about a month which has help a lot.

I will try to follow your advise. It just seems like my H is moving so fast forward towards a D, I keep trying to block him before he makes the biggest mistake of his life, mine and my little girls.

I don't know how to put him on back burner without coming off as cold and with an attitude. He has always been front burner to me.

Can I say something? I felt just as you do a couple of years ago- I could see my husband heading toward disaster and I was willing to do anything to prevent it, all the hurt.

But in the end I came off as desperate, needy and controlling in his eyes, and it made things worse.

I realised that I can't control him and that I don't want to manipulate him into being together, even to buy time to show him love. I was a good wife to him, but he made alot of mistakes and was trying to run away from them. Like the prodigal son, I realised he needed to go off and experience the consequences of his actions- (and it took awhile- he had a good time at first).

Meanwhile I moved out, got a job, lost weight, started having other interests and stopped 'needing' him. I called him once in a while, just to say hi and ask how he was doing, so he would know I still cared. Sure enough in time he found out the grass wasn't greener...

Now he sees me as interesting, desirable, independent, (the strain is off him financially), no pressure from me, just friendship, a caring friend , which he needs now.

This is a process. It takes alot of prayer, trusting that God will do his part, and being willing to wait. Forgiveness.

For me, loving him meant allowing him the freedom to make his own choices ( even if they were bad choices), and giving him space and time to do so. That was what he needed.

(Remember that the OW ususally turn out to be demanding and needy, so it makes us all the more attractive.)

Shul

Hi m01069,

Hang in there - the ride will be rough and it sounds like you've only just begun. I agree with the poster who said it sounds as if your WH may be having a PA. The things the WS's say and do are so similiar. It does help to read that we're all basically going through the same sort of things. Try to stay off the roller coaster - detach.

Please resist the temptation to LB or try to plead or convince him. You've let him know you would consider reconciliation - so try to just leave it at that for now. (I KNOW - it's REALLY HARD to isn't it?) Whenever you contact him and tell him those things it just assures him he has even longer to fool around and expect you to still be waiting afterwards. Plus it feels like pressuring to him and makes him resist even more.
In the beginning of an affair the OP is all about romance, fun, flattery, no pressure... So it is especially crucial for you to not be all about complaining, criticizing, pressuring right now! As Shul pointed out: the OP will get around to demanding - eventually. You will have to detach and spend time improving your own life for now. And you know what? That part is really fun. It will cheer you up AND make your WS really start to worry. And THAT is what you REALLY want, isn't it? You want him to pursue you.

We can't convince them to stop the affair, work on the marriage, go to counseling, etc. But we can influence how long and painful the process is by what WE say or do. And unfortunately reacting the way we feel a strong urge to, is what makes things worse. Somebody posted a suggestion in another thread to wait 5 days before reacting to the WS's remarks/actions. Come here to discuss the way you'd want to react. The experienced posters here can give you more effective ways of dealing with it. For a while to keep from calling my WH, I kept a list of reasons why that wouldn't work by the phone.

In a way we are fighting the same sort of battle our WS's are: trying to overcome a strong urge to say and do things, that if given in to, will destroy our marriage. Except we want to save our marriage... So we have to take the initiative to learn what's effective at doing that and to behave in a counterintuitive way.
I really found it hard to follow the plans at first. It's 'not fair', it's not easy, it feels like game-playing at first, and you probably won't find much support among your family & friends - they either want you to forgive & forget or get a divorce and get-on-with-your-life.

I am taking lexapro too. Although I did notice an improvement after one month, looking back I can tell I was still pretty depressed and having trouble controlling my reactions. Now after being on it for several more months I am doing much better. I used to wake up in the middle of the night with anxiety attacks and unable to fall back asleep for hours. Now I wake up feeling so cheerful it's sort of silly. And I have no trouble falling asleep. I also am not having crying spells anymore.

Clean your house, garden, exercise, go to church, take a class, socialize with family & friends... enjoy life.

Thank you everyone. You are so helpful to me.

Do I just avoid him? We live in the same house. Do I hold back on hugs?

He told me the other day his greatest wish is for me to find a guy who will treat me better than I even imagine.

I want to tell him to just leave me alone, just leave me the f alone, go self destruct. Is that an LB?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you probably won't find much support among your family & friends - they either want you to forgive & forget or get a divorce and get-on-with-your-life.
<hr /></blockquote>This is very true, and something to beware of.

When I made up my mind to forgive and work on reconciling the relationship, I had to stop confiding in friends. When I needed to vent they would advise me to dump him, and they saw me as weak for forgiving him. The reality is that the path of forgiveness is harder than giving up. Many of my friends are bitterly divorced and it just upset me and set me back.

Shul

Actually my friends and family are great! They have all said they will support whatever decision I make, as I make them.

I have the oposite problem, they are great listeners, but don't give much advise at all. They always ask me "what do you want to do?'

I come here for advise.

Hopefully someone will reply to the questions above this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do I just avoid him? We live in the same house. Do I hold back on hugs?
<hr /></blockquote>This is tricky. I would say don't chase him around when you need a hug, but if he seems to need one, don't reject him. Don't avoid him, but don't chase him either. Be attentive to his needs, try to anticipate his needs, but don't fawn on him (annoying). Give him a little breathing room. You might have to forgo your own needs for a while.

Its a very good sign that he is willing to go for counseling., btw.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He told me the other day his greatest wish is for me to find a guy who will treat me better than I even imagine.
<hr /></blockquote>(I detect remorse here. All to the good.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want to tell him to just leave me alone, just leave me the f alone, go self destruct. Is that an LB?
<hr /></blockquote>Yes it is!!! lol

Seriously, it sounds like you need some space to vent and cry (away from him) and do some forgiving. Go for a walk and let it out. Until you forgive him, you are going to have these feelings of anger and hurt. They will get in the way of reconciliation. But if you forgive him you will heal and be able to work this in a positive loving way.

Shul

Shul

Thanks for the thought out advise.

H is going to counseling for 2 reasons:

1. He was living in his truck, he was allowed to return home under that agreement.

2. Now he is home he admitted he will go but doesn't have any want to go. He says he will go to explore our avenues and he will listen to what the Dr has to say. (We went to 2 appts. prior and he only "listened" to what he wanted to hear) and then came to conclusion he wanted a divorce.

H wants us to live together for the kids, lead seperate lives.

I wear my emotions on my sleeve, always have. I will try to behave. No I WILL BEHAVE!

H called me at work, he wants to go out on the ATV's with the kids tonight!

Yes, you all are thinking "good sign", but this is what he is doing to me, playing ping pong with my emotions.

IF I were to ask him (which I will not), but if I did make a comment like he is trying with us, he would reply that he's not trying for us as a married couple, but us as friends.

i HAVE FALLEN FOR THAT TRAP BEFORE, CAN YOU TELL?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, you all are thinking "good sign", but this is what he is doing to me, playing ping pong with my emotions.

<hr /></blockquote>Or he might just be experiencing some emotional pingpong himself. He probably doesn't know what he wants, he is confused, feeling hurt but willing to try. It doesn't sound like he is deliberately trying to mess with you. Why not just go with it?

And he is right about being friends first- you probably need to work on that part of your relationship, kind of like being with each other the way we are when we first meet-just having fun and getting to know each other (although I wouldn't push the getting to know each other right now- concentrate on the having fun part.)

See if you can get him to laugh. So often when things are strained we just want to get away from the whole thing, and not be constantly reminded of the Problems, you know?

So work at making this really fun tonight.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> i HAVE FALLEN FOR THAT TRAP BEFORE, CAN YOU TELL?
<hr /></blockquote>I know it feels like same old same old, but maybe he's really giving this a shot. Otherwise why would he bother? Why not forgive the past hurts right now and put the past behind you? You have nothing to lose, actually, and everything to gain if you do. When we look for trouble it can become a self fulling prophecy...

It kind of sounds like he is working on forgiveness and a new start. Why not meet him halfway?

It's so hard to treat your H like a friend only. I find that the hardest concept. We had a dream relationship that came crashing to a halt on 1/06 in 30 seconds with his "I was never in love with you" speech.

When I see him I want to kiss and hug him like I have done for 15 years, and he won't allow it.

It's really hard to make him laugh these days,

I know how much it hurts to be rejected. There is a reason he is doing this. Maybe to gain some distance while he sorts out his feelings?

I don't put much stock in the whole 'in love' business, personally.

We generally mean something else by that. It may be that he felt excitment, attention, lust, with the o/w but none of those things have to do with the kind of love that makes for a healthy mutual relationship. They are feelings,and feelings come and go like the weather, whereas love is caring for someone else's needs in tangible and intangible ways, even at the cost of our own comfort.

I think it is important for lovers to be friends first, to be able to talk and share and trust.

It was hard for me at first to see my husband as a friend. I had to give up my expectations and simply see him as someone I care about. But that had made a big difference in how I relate to him. It is much easier to love him without lovebusting when you have no expectations.

I don't know if you are a believer, but we are instructed to exchange love for hatred, expecting nothing in return. It is grace, just like how God loves you. Think of it as an opportunity to grow in love.

I hope you have a good night.

You make some very good points. I really like the one to love without expectations....Expect nothing in return. That's nice.

We went out on the ATV's. When we do that there's not really any contact, we are on bikes riding through the woods. But it's something we all really enjoy.

I had bought H a shirt he's been wanting that I found. H coldly said "thank You". He really wanted this shirt too.

I went to a mutual friends house last night to get their insight (they are our parents age and have known us for the 15 years we've been together)

They agreed that H always adored me, nothing he says makes sense.

I wish I could help him out of this and bring him back to happiness, that is my wish.

I went to MC appt today w/out H (H had to work).

I explained the going on's to the counselor. MC says that what H is saying and doing is inconsistant. (My H is saying/doing status quo of affair)

MC says I am very smart and have a good head on my shoulders and have my priorities straight. I told this to H when he got home and he said "I know you are smart, have your head on your shoulders." I said "Well, one of us doesn't then". H says, "I have my head on my shoulders too" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> (Go figure!!!)

The ball is basically in my H's court (scary thought).

MC will coach us but H needs to be willing. H and I are scheduled to go Next Thurs together.

I asked H if he would go to my Mom's house Easter after work. H says "No, I don't think so, I'll just come home". I said "That's your choice, the girls and I will be at my Mom's".

Again, his feelings go ahead of being with his kids. That really urks me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I will be honest.

I am hearing some bitterness from you, and I suspect he is too.

This is natural but it will get in the way of the relationship.

If he is really trying to give this one last shot, you need to consider his needs first, ahead of the kids even. Plan A calls for radical love.

Are you sure you have forgiven him?

I forgive him everyday. But then he gives me that one more cold look, cold shoulder and I shutter..

H went to a meeting tonight. Now, in the past, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.. But with our current situation, I don't know what to think.

I saw him cleaning out his truck before he left. H NEVER CLEANS HIS TRUCK.

I just said "drive carefully". H made comment to kids that he would be home way, way, way after they go to bed.

I always trusted my H to the core. I was never an accusing wife and look where it got me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Have you read the 180's?
I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope
this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I always trusted my H to the core. I was never an accusing wife and look where it got me.
<hr /></blockquote>I find myself doing the same things. Tonight when I called my h the line was busy in his room and I immediately panicked and wondered if he was talking to another woman.

But accusing and being suspicious is self defeating. Try not to dwell on what if's. He is there with you, you have a chance to love him. Don't assume the worst.

I think the 180 is a good idea. It is good to give them space.

What it came down to for me was that no matter what he does I still choose to love him, no strings. I don't own him, I am just here to love him. Now I am able to see past my hurt and to see his needs, his hurts.

Shul

You are very wise. I am trying. But one of my H's complaints (among many) was that when kids came along he would go to show me affection and I would push him aside (I didn't mean to, kids start crying and I guess I would push him away and go running to them)

H never initiates affection now (sex is non existant per his request)

I fear the 180 concept would further it in his mind that what he is doing is right.

I do hug him on occasion now ( a couple times a day), but I made a personal vow to myself to stop the crying, begging, pleading. What ever happens, happens. I am doing my best.

Dear M01069,

I have read several MB threads where 180 divorce busting was used. Most just took a few of the 180 Degreee concepts and tried to work with a few at a time. They tried to find things to change, and work on the few things. One of the benefits described is that by changing, you are showing your H that you can change. One of the reasons often used by a partner seeking a divorce is that their spouse will never change. If you demonstrate that you can change, this takes away one reason supporting the idea of divorce. Is there anything else you can think of to change? Refusing to cry and beg seems like a good start, that would be in line with the Stop Your Divorce concepts also.

Just wanted to give you a supportive comment.

Blessings

M,

It is odd that he has cut off the sex. I wonder if he is feeling guilty about something? Depressed? Hurt? Something is bothering him,I think.

I think you can deal with this. Maybe start to dress a little seductively, be inviting. Don't initiate affection for a few days, just be alluring. Maybe send the kids off one night, and make him a nice supper. Keep the conversation light, maybe massage his neck a little when you are passing by. Entice him just a bit...be very gentle with him.

180 I think I can attempt all except not saying I love you. This is something we have done for 15 years, no matter how angry. He still says it to me.

As far as the no sex. I've tried some gentle things. Nada!! He says it's just not there anymore for him. (feelings for me) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

M,

At times like this I pray and ask God to give me insight into my husband, and direction on how to respond to him in love.

I think that is what you need to do. Something is going on in his head, and you can't reach him, but God knows.

I will pray for you. Dont give up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Shul

Dear M01069,

I am a husband reading Boundaries in Marriage. It occurred to me that one of the boundaries you would like your husband to follow would be to avoid EA and PA relations. I searched for a good thread on Standing, but I was unable to find a good thread for you. Basically Standing is continuing to do the right thing, being ture to your spouse, even though your partner may not be doing the right things.

One aspect taught by cloudtownsend.com, is that to have the best chance that your partner will follow our desires in boundaries, that we ourselves should attempt to follow good boundaries in every way possible and practical. The idea of the Golden Rule, basicly. It seems that your husband's offer to babysit while you go out on the town, is an invitation for you to participate in weakening boundaries. I just mention that concept for you to consider, if your husband offers to babysit for you again, you might take the opportunity to express the idea that you are Standing.

It is not intended that every idea in the 180 Degree Divorce Busting list apply to all marriages in trouble. Also, the list is not intended to be complete, but rather a springboard for other factors to change.

I did mention deeper listening skills on your thread under General Questions II. Basicaly 90% of thinking is done subconscously, so if you get further tuned into your partner's desires, you can have a better chance of following some good boundaries and processes.

Blessings

[ April 08, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler

You gave me some food for thought. I don't like going out on the town, I would much rather stay home and snuggle, but husband doesn't want to do that.

I am so lost. When I got married I was so secure, so sure of myself and us. Now 15 years later my security has been ripped out from under me

Dear M,

Perhaps you might look for security in knowing that you are trying to do the right things. Some MB threads have suggested that an important concept is what we are able to tell out children, about how we tried to serve and save the marriage.

I pray that you find a sense of security.

Blessings

Dear M,

Two further things came up while I prayed for your feeling of security.

One idea is for when your husband points out your past mistakes, faults, etc., one way to change the dynamics is to ask, "What would you like me to change now?" This question is difficult for my wife to ask of our college age son. It may be difficult for you. It is not agreeing to change whatever he may ask to be changed, it just means that you are listening, and will consider his ideas. It places the responsibility on the person hearing the question, to come up with solutions. "Is there anything I can do or arrange differnetly for you?" This comes from ODD strategies, Dr. James Sutton, docspeaks.com.

The second idea is that issues of negotiation of a divorce settlement have been brought up. To best protect the interests of your daughters, you should probably have a lawyer from whom you can seek advice at this time. Procedures and opportunites vary from state to state, courthouse to courthouse, and even judge to judge. Most lawyers are not looking for opportunities to fix marriages, so you will need to do some shopping to find a lawyer who can work with you to try to save your marriage. You might want to start checking referrals earlier than later.

Whaler

Thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers.

I am not going out tonight. I told my H I want to just stay home and hang out with him. He had no comment.

I have sought counsel from 2 lawyers so far. I need to see a third just to make sure. Neither have given me much hope with my marriage.

I never heard of a lawyer interested in saving a marriage.

It's scary, because with the exception of child support, both lawyers said they can push for all I want but in the end it's up to the judge. But both said that things look more in my favor right now. What about my kids favor? Seems like I am the only one with the best interest of them.

Dear M,

I did not list out a number of counseling questions for you. There are books of lists of questions, and more books and courses on when to use which series of questions. I will just give you some that come to mind, and you can use your best judgement of when, or if, to ask any of the questions that may help start, or keep a positive conversation going.

What would you like the children to become, do, or have? What would you like the children to avoid doing, becoming or having?
What would you like to take credit and responsibility for? What would you like to aviod responsibility or blame for?
What do you see blocking you from what you want to do, be or have? What options for encouragement are available for making achievements? When is a good time for encouragement? When is a bad time for encouraging ideas? What would you like to see change? What would you like to remain unchanged?

Listening also involves the understanding the balance of choices a person is making or considering. To understand the balance, at least two extreme polemic views of the subject should be visualized. As the listener, you can beter understand, and acknowlegde your husband's ideas, if you repeat back the concept in terms of the extremes he is balancing. "Of course you want to do the best you can for your daughters, but of course you don't want to save money by living a dangerous neighborhood either."

Your goal of snuggling together in the evening sounds ideal, but getting to a point of having some constructive conversation with H respecting a boundary of avoiding needless fault finding with you, seems like a more realistic expectation, that may lead to an atmosphere of trust where afection can be felt and expressed.

I got my Boundaries Instruction Videos today. Maybe you will notice an increase in my savy after I watch them. Whenever I pick up the Boundaries in Marriage book, I am reminded of activities that I should do to make the household more pleasant, so I have not gotten past P. 84.

Blessings.

Whaler

Thanks again. What you wrote makes a lot of sense.

It seems like life has become so complicated, to the point of being unpleasant.

Every word, action, eye movement I feel needs to be methotically planned. Although I am looking at this as changing my habits right now, I am not being myself. Being me means being happy, very silly at times and not letting anyone walk all over me. The way I am now is an exact opposite because I have to re-phrase in my mind every little comment, question and so forth and then I have to take it a step further before I speak and try to tell which way my H will react and how I will comment (or not) about that.

I need to get the bounderies book next.

No snuggling, no conversation tonight. H is deep into play a military game on PlaystationII. I was laying next to him watching him play for a while but I know when he's playing a game the world could end and he wouldn't notice so I decided to come and talk to my real friends. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My girls and I will be going to Mass tomorrow for Easter, I will pray for all MB'rs and I'll sneak in an extra for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Glad to know that you are ordinarily happy. Being able to express yourself in different attitudes takes practice.

We can think of your attitude of ordinarily happy, silly, to be a healthy level attitude. Sometimes we have to deal with people who are ordinarily in below the healthy attitude range.

Sometimes people are temporarily in less than healthy attitudes, sometimes a person will take an attitude toward us in particular, as we have failed to keep our boundaries up.

The most difficult attitude for me to handle is sneaky people. Thankfully, your husband does not seem to be artfully sneaky, inventing elaborate stories and fabrications.

Your H could be functioning in Antagonism, Needing to Punish, Hateful or Resentment, or intersted in the suffering of others.

You may feel more comfortable if you select a particular attitude with which to express yourself. One of the attitudes that I have had to work at being able to employ is Boredom. Boredom is that one choice is as OK as any other choice, as it really does not make a difference. Instead of being happy, you could just practice being, everything is OK, just seen it all, nothing is a real big deal anymore.

If you have never practiced Boredom, it might be a good attitude to have practiced recently. Boredom is really tough for me, as I like interesting things, and making comments, even if I really don't fully know what I am talking about.

There are other attitudes that you might try to work more compassionately with H. But you might try Boredom, first, and see if he responds better. If nothing else, by practicing changing attitudes, you may be more interesting to him. It is a healthy exercise, for you anyway. But if Boredom feels wrong, just switch back to what you were doing.

The idea of acting bored, is to give the other person a chance to catch a better attitude. If their attitude improves, go back to being your ordinary happy self. If they are still in a bad mood, for whatever reason, being happy will seem irritating to them. So acting bored is being considerate, until they show they can be trusted with your true happiness.

BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE, by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and

Boundaries in Marriage Workbook, Paperback, ISBN 0-310-22875-1.

Boundaries, Face to Face, a new book by Clound and Townsend.

cloudtownsend.com
www.drhenrycloud.com
www.newlife.com

Boundaries Course Video
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1813624&sourceid=1500000000000000040820

[ April 09, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler

I think I might have done a boo boo.

My H has such a bad attitude with me, can't stand me to be frank even though I have been in strong Plan A minus the bounderies. My one bounderie would be no contact with other woman which he flat out refuses.

My H treats strangers better than me. And that's what I told him. I asked to him change his attitude with me. He asked me how do I want to be treated and I said like the wife I am. I want to be held, kissed, treated like a wife. H said that's not possible. He would be lieing if he did that. He has no feelings for me anymore.

I told him that if he doesn't want to treat me like the wife I am than walk. I told him to go find himself, be happy because he's miserable here. He comes and goes as he pleases, does and says as he pleases and I have taken all of this with a smile on my stupid face.

Everyone that has known My H has always been so proud of his accomplishments, his parents, co workers etc.. I told H that whoever is proud of him his parents etc... is also living a lie because there is nothing to be proud of.

H says he didn't do this to me intentionally, I said I don't give a flying F what was intentional or not, he did it. supposedly lied to me for 15 years, leading me on treating me like his Princess and cut it all of in 30 seconds.

I told him I was embarrased to have chosen him to have kids with, I am embarrased of my own stupid judgement.

I know I probably just threw plan A down the toilet, but He treats me like a piece of dirt, like I don't matter.

He's taken my self esteem and squashed it, looks at me like I am a maggot.

Need some support here please.

One more thing, when I say other woman, I mean multiple.

He has phone contact (that's all I know for sure) with many other woman "friends".

H says I can't tell him who he can talk to .

Put him on the back burner, sweetie. It is time for you to go on with your life, and start enjoying it. Join a women's support group, go out with kids, with friends, do some hobbies, organize the house, rearrange, paint, etc.

When you get boundaries, it is like a fence. You do not expect others to change. You determine what you will tolerate in your life. Whatever his problem is, he is taking it out on you.

I feel much better and my self-esteem is back, since I have gone on with my life, and not sat around wondering why WH is not happy. That is something that he needs to work on. I will support him, but cannot do it for him.

feel much better and my self-esteem is back, since I have gone on with my life, and not sat around wondering why WH is not happy. That is something that he needs to work on. I will support him, but cannot do it for him.

How do I support him? I have been supporting him by putting a smile on my face and letting do as he pleases which in turn turned me into instant doormat. Instead of him doing things around the house, spending time with the kids he chooses to hang out at the fire station. This is something that prior to all of this I would put limits on because he would take advantage of it. He would gladly dump all responsibilities for more "fun".

Now that he's "done" with me he says he does not have to listen to me, which is putting more weight of the house, kids and other responsibilities on my shoulders. And the emotional responsibility of being told that your H emotionally divorced you years ago and I was clueless.

I have two small children so my time alone is very seldom. My family all have their own families to deal with. They do take them on occasion, but I feel I am intruding.

I got a wedding invite in the mail today. Makes me want to puke. I remember the words we exchanged back then and the future we promised and now H says it was all a lie.

How can somebody do this to another? He was the most caring man I knew, now he's a heartless guy.

I want my old husband back, he says I don't, that man was a liar. Well, he was the best liar I ever knew to pull me along for 15 years.

I want to send him an email tonight, what's your thoughts. (He's working on his overnighter tonight)

I wanted to put that I love him and want this marriage to work, I will do whatever it takes for us to succeed. I need him to treat me as his wife, the person he married 11 years ago and promised to love and cherish. I want us to be the fun loving couple we were back then. I want to make new fun, good memories together.

What do ya think?

No, no, no. Put him on the back burner. Even though you have kids, you can still do things. Don't worry about burdening your family and friends. You need to take care of you.

Don't listen to his talk - he is deeply in the fog. He has no idea what he is doing. They all do the same things, and say the same things. He is addicted and cannot help himself.

believer

I know he is addicted to something and I am trying to figure out what.

I know he had fallen in love with a girl (he says EA) BUT says it's over. I can't prove otherwise.

I know he was into cyber sex, but says that's done too. I can't prove otherwise, he keeps his laptop at the fire dept.

I know he's addicted to video games, but can that addiction cause or add to this problem.?

I know he's addicted to internet chats.

I've been thinking of going to his mother about this. What's your opinion?

Her and I just reconciled about a month ago from years of bitterness. I am afraid that she'll take my reconciliation as a sign of a trick to get her on my side.

That's not the case at all, I want to help my H in any way possible. I told my H that too.

He is addicted to something. We don't know what it is right now. But you need to put him on the back burner and work on yourself. You will not be able to go on like this for too long.

Yes, our husbands are a big part of our life, but not our whole life. Stick with us and your life can be good again.

Dear M,

One concept in in Boundaries in Marriage is Emotional Distance. Believer says hold your ground. There are degrees of being over-acquiessing and, on the other extreme, being too emotionally distant.

For me, I drew two overlapping circles. There is my desires, my wife's desires, and desires in the overlapping part of the circle, which we agree on. The mutually agreed upon desires in the overlapping part of the circles is the boundaries of the marriage.

Try to improve things that are in the overlapping part of the circle. Try to find things in his circle of desires, to which you have not yeat agreed, that you can work to find agreement, or step-wise progress toward more agreement, and less disagreement.

The Boundaries books, and I watched the first lesson of 8 lessons, seems to recommend that we word our requests for boundaries in a way that is thoughtful and realistic, and stepwise progressive toward what you want.

You have asked him to cut off telephone contact with other women. Certainly that is a clear boundary, fairly unambiguous. There is a wide range of tolerance for contact with other women among the posters on this MB forum. Some want no looking and no talking. Some have forgiven affairs. Some have open marriages. What Boundaries Books would seem to suggest, would be to assess what your husband feels is a reasonable boundary, what you feel is a reasonable boundary, and see if there is any room for step-wise progress toward a middle ground, in any way.

As you point out, there are a number of things that you do not know about your husband. He said he lied to you for 15 years. You might look at other forums dealing with sexual issues. Cure Zone, Herbal Remedies plus Detailed Fourms Another forum to help a wife compete with addictions is Thread on Wife Defining and Competing with Addiction

The power structure of your marriage may also be important for commanding respect. Perhaps I am wrong in my assessment that your husband is not sneaky. If your husband was telling his mother stories about you, to have her have a low, distrusting opinion of you, then that would be an indication H is being sneaky.

The goal of contact with H's mother could be simply to offer to be helpful. Here agian, the magic word "CHANGE" can be used. You may wish to ask your husband first, "I was going to ask your mother to have lunch with me next week, so I could get some advice from her. Do you see any problem with that? Is there anything you want to discuss with me first? Would you rather I delay meeting with her?" Try to operate within agreements of the marriage. POJA, Policy of Joint Agreement in MB.

If your husband is being sneaky, and he has admitted to at least being deceptive, keeping in communication with other people who are important to you, and your daughters, is of vital importance. Your daughter's grandparents can play important roles on occasions. There are degrees of being deceptive and sneaky. If a person is totally sneaky, then you would not even disclose you are making the rounds to keep up communication with other important people. If your husband gets up-tight about your talking to his mom, that should be a flag to indicate that he is in the more sneakier range.

Addiction involves a certain amount of non-disclosure. One purpose of understanding boundaries, is so that you can increase trust in the marriage. If you have any friends who are wives of men who work at the fire house, I bet they could provide enlightening info.

Paying closer attention to your boundaries and feelings, will avoid being passive-aggressive, and saying things you don't mean, and appologising later. Not the ideal cycle, better to have spoken up earlier, with a more even-handed expectations. Telling your husband to get out is not what you really want, nor is it a step toward what you want. So now, come up with some step toward what you actaully want, and let him know what the reasonable step is that you want and see if you can get POJA on it, or some compromise. Telling H to get out certainly expressed some of your feelings of frustration, but see what boundaries you can get agreed to. For some reason, he has enough trust in you to at least come home.

Perahps you can ask your husband that if he is not in a mood to be reasonably affectionate, hug, or accepting a pat on the back, ordinary husband wife stuff in front of the kids, that if he cannot accept that, he should go to his room, until he is ready to behave as a normal husband.

About other women, I try to avoid telling any other non-cyber woman that my wife is less than the ideal wife. The reason for that is that I have confided my complaints about my wife to another woman, in person, and that gave the OW the idea that I was thinking of divorce, and getting together with OW. That created unrealistic expectations. You might ask your husband, that if he is going to talk to other women, that he tell the other woman that he is happily married. That may not work for you. It is just an idea, and a rule I try to follow.

I have read some MB posters advising Plan B, and I agree your husband is probably talking Fog Talk, and you need to mix a pound of salt with whatever he says, but I don't see how Plan B would really help you get your marriage back together. Perhaps things are more clear to you than you have presented here, but Plan B can backfire. After living together 7 years, 1 daughter, daughters' father married OW 4 days after Plan B:

cnf, Her Daughter's Father marries OW after Plan B

Blessings

[ April 10, 2004, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

ask your husband, that if he is going to talk to other women, that he tell the other woman that he is happily married

That's funny!! Sorry, don't mean to laugh. My H will tell anyone in ear's shot about what a terrible wife I was, he's not happy and he's emotionally divorced and wants the real divorce.

I am going to try the interlocking circle suggestion. Thanks

I asked H last week what he was willing to put back into the marriage and he said he isn't willing to put anything back. And after that he took more away.

He was kissing me on top of my head, now that's gone.

I can see the pro's and con's of Plan B. Plan B would protect me from losing more love for my H and would protect me from LBing him.

Also, I think part of H's problem is the ole "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. He's not going to realize that it's not greener until I let him go graze in it for a while.

Although the con's outway the pro's, a resolution might come sooner in plan B?

Dear M,

I suggest that having your expectations clearly defined would be helpful before doing a Plan B. Also having a number of other significant people in tune with your Plan B Reasons would give you a better chance, like his parents.

I saw a good T Shirt for your husband, "BEING GRUMPY"

I agree that you should protect yourself. Plan B does that, except Plan B does a whole lot more.

Protecting yourself from criticism in public or in front of others is a skill that is worth developing, in itself. The concept of Boredom, or not seeming overly interested, or Emotional Distancing, can be practiced with your husband. If you have clearly defined boundaries for criticism, and are unable to get H to follow reasonable boundaries, and your emotional distancing is not working, then Plan B may be a risk worth taking.

The question to H, "What more are you going to do for the marriage?" is what you really want to know. Except this phrasiology risks an oppositonal response, which it received. You want to put the responsibility on H, but without any hint of BLAME. That is why the phraseology, "What can I change to make things less contentious?" Has an advantage, as no blame of H is implied.

What are your boundaries for personal criticims from H? What are your signal phrases that H is exceeding your boundaries? What are your options for initial emotional distancing? (Like using Boredom) What are your options for emtional distancing if he continues criticism? (Going to some place that is not a threat to him or indication of breach of trust, like a relative of yours, or a neighbor, etc.) That idea of a trusting breather space is in the books Intimate Enemy.

You mention Addiction, but you don't mention Al Anon. Al Anon is for spouses of addicted or habituated spouses. The purpose of at least some Al-Anon Groups is to assit in recognizing any unintended complicity of a spouse in the responsibility-escaping techniques used by the addicted spouse.

If your husband wants to have a gripe session, in private, that might be OK, within limits. So you could offer to schedule a Gripe session, if he is griping in front of others. If you send H an E-mail, you might want to think of what reasonable boundaries you wish him to observe. I suggest you consider just asking for non-negative vibrations, and not asking for displays of affection, starting our, but these are YOUR boundaries, not mine. Let H know how he can avoid falling into your displeasure and building up the feelings, of "Get out or else!" You may need to adjust your expectations, and feelings of self-confidence, which may have become overly dependent on validatin from affection from H. That may be difficult to develo your own self confidence, without any affection from H.

I am not sure what GQ Forum is, can you give me more info?

I read some earlier post of yours, where you lost your temper. It seems to me you should give having a neutral safe haven for you to go, would be worthwhile. Maybe even a women's shelter, or volunteer home, or the Salvation Army, something, something with a phone if he wants to check on you. I pay $15.00 a month for minimal cell phone service.

Have you ever done a parenting course together? That always brought my Wife and I closer, just being on the same page with the terms and concepts.

What can you tell us about The Four Agreements and the Power of the Word. I am not familiar with those concepts. In what way could you be supportive of his ideas? My wife likes to ridicule my ideas, and I feel that limits our relationship, largely unnecessarily. Are ther any principles you could compromise? Are there any boundaries on disagreeing with his ideas you could exchange for boundaries you are interested in? How would he like to see you change to support his ideas? (Junk)

A further block seems to me to be that you don't have a babysitter set up for your daughters inthe evening. It seems to me that you could babsit for someone, and build up some exchange credit, so they would babysit your children. It seems to me that you should make the effort to get things arranged, so that you can go out in the evening wtih your husband, alone, without the kids.

You mention that your husband appears to be a hard working Hero to others. What are his actual good qualities? Does your husband match up to his Astrology sign? Which One? What esle is positive/limiting about H?

Blessings

[ April 10, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler, and all other posters

You are a God sent!

I am printing out these replies and I am going to go to bed and read them.

Whaler, I am not sure where you saw me post regarding GQ forum. I have had some posts under that forum.

I have asked him what can I do to help this marriage and he says there's nothing I can do. He says the only way it would last is if he falls in love with me and he doesn't see that happening since he never was in love with me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I don't believe he never was. This is the strangest thing. How can someone lie for 15 years? He really treated me well, whatever I wanted he would be right there (with the exception of anything I wanted done around the house, that's when he would make a stand and not do it.)

All of our friends are in disbelief too. They all said they thought we would be the one couple to make it to the golden ages together.

Hoppy Easter everyone.!!!

Whaler,

Ps> It's funny that you mention the "I'm grumpy" shirt

We went to Disney in December and my H got a couple of "Grumpy" mugs and I got a decal for my truck that says "Back off, I'm Grumpy", with a picture of Grumpy on it. Are you Phychic?

Dear M,

Glad you feel you can do the circles without input from H. You have apparently heard enough of his comments over the years, that you should be able to come up with some of his desired boundaries. No House Work for example.

What your husband is saying is quite discouraging. But your own self-confidence is what is important, and having your self-confidence based on factors independent of his words, actions or true, orn stated opinions is also important.

I have a college Age son who is ADHD-ODD. He lives at home, and when I see him, I ask, "Anything I can do to be helpful?" Anything I should think about changing?" He usually answers "NO." So even though he says "No." I have set up the dynamics of cooperation. I feel good about myself, and I have not raised any Oppositional Impulses, so that is my idea of a successful communication, in my frame of refernce.

Asking H is ther is anything you can change is nto necessarily to get him to answer, but rather to just get him thiking, adn set up the dynamics in the right way.

When my children were young, my wife sould cook food to suit the kids. What are your husband's favorite dishes? Have yhou gotten all his favoritge dish recipes from his Mom? Do you have a system to satisfy the kids and H with dinner, breakfast, lunch? My wife seldom cooks what I like. She ordinarily buys what is on sale, or what she thinks is good for me or what my son likes to eat. I recently bought some lasagna from Schwans Frozen Home deliver Service. Great tasting. Some men would never leave their wives bcasue their wives are great cooks. Eating out cannot compare to how some women preapre food for their husband's. (Not my wife) but some wives. You don't mention cooking, but I know what kids do to the menu.

You mention your husband has strange ideas and goes to meetings. I have never been to a Star Trek convention, but I have heard that people try to dress and act weird. Seems harmless to me. Is there some compromise on your husband's ideas and groups or meetings you can figure out? Ideas happen to be important to me. Maybe not to your husband, but maybe.

Regardless of whether your husband says "Yes," or "No," when asked if there is anything he would like you to do differently, you have set up your being open to suggestions, and you should feel good about yourself, as having offered to serve.

Blessings

[ April 11, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler

You are very wise.

Cooking comment: I am 1/2 Italian. Need I say more. I always make every effort to have a nice meal on the table. I have asked my H for past 11 years is there anything special he would like for dinner, lunch, whatever and his reply is always "whatever you make will be great".

Since this happened whenever I would make one of his favorite meals/desserts he would say I am trying too hard and the only reason I am making these things is because of what happened. These are things I would make prior.

H worked overnight last night so I made his favorite dessert to share with his crew for Easter (on holiday's I always sent him with stuff). I gave him a piece to try on Friday, now prior he would melt at the taste and make these noises like he's never eaten before. Then come over and kiss me. On Friday he ate it and I had to ask him if it was all right and he just gave me the thumbs up.

Then, yesterday he forgot to grab the dish b4 work, I called his cell phone and reminded him. He came back and got them. So, I feel I am not good enough to be his wife, just his personal baker. (I was lieing down when he came back, didn't even see him)

As far as my H preferring to eat at home. That probably isn't the case for him. He is Army Reserve, spent time in Iraq in 90-91. He could eat an MRE and be fulfilled. Family meals mean nothing to him since he wasn't brought up that way, whereas I grew up always eating as a family. Waiting till eveyrone got home.

Meetings: The meeting are for the Fire Dept which he in on call in town, or other meetings are for the Army.

Book of four agreements: It's a Mexican Toltec Tribe Belief system. It's real intricate to explain. I have read a small amount, but I am not comfortable with it.

It talks about hell is what we live in everyday on earth.

The power of the word is very powerful.

Your worst judge is yourself. You have to be true to yourself, you have to love yourself and it guides you how to do these things.

I think it has some good points when you are reading it with your head on your shoulders, which my husbands isn't. He is taking it way out of proportions.

I guess it's a real popular book. I took the books away from him, I said I wanted to read them.

Regardless of whether your husbans says "Yes," or "No," when asked if there is anything he would like you to do differently, you have set up your being open to suggestions, and you should feel good about yourself, as having offered to serve.

I understand that, hard concept to adapt though. I have a bad habit of looking at how I would answer. I would never be as cold as he is and answer with a big "nothing". I may think about it and come back with a constructive answer. We go to MC appt. on Thurs. night to "explore our avenues" as my H puts it.

Hoppy Easter Whaler, hope the bunny is good to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Dear M,

Thanks for the Easter wishes, and Happy Easter to you and your family.

It helps to be psychic to try to be a married parent these days. Everyone has less than optimal days, and as family members, we should try to give people space to be grumpy once in a while. A family by definition is a forgiving structure. We just need to avoid the temptation to over-indulge ourselves with more than our reasonable share of Grumpy Days.

The first Law in the Boundaries book, is that you reap what you sow. The first suggested Value in Boundaries, is to Love God. This is similar to MB avoiding Love Busters, just a little more expansive on the positive side.

You might try to keep track of any Love Busters, or anything less than God Loving, toward your husband. See where the feelings are coming from. See what boundaries you feel your husband is failing to follow. Then figure out any boundaries that you could or should follow, that relate to the issue, so that you can sow better seeds in that area. I have viewed Lesson 3 on the Bouondaries video. The video is tracking the book, and not really adding material information, but the video etches the ideas further into my stubbornly resistant brain.

You mention refinancing, which is a good idea at this time, Spring 04. However, you don't mention your feelings on the family budget. Most divorces are caused by a failure of the family budget. What boundaries are you following on finances, and do you feel your husband is following good finacial boundaries? Any further boundaries you could enforce on yourself?

There are 3 month courses to become an X-ray technician or a Phlebotomist(Spelling), blood drawing technician. The three month course gets you a certificate with the State, and you can start work, somewhere $9 to $12 per hour, I guess. You can start back rubs at home. For a massage instruction video: Esalen Hospital Back Rubs You can use H as your practice dummy. He'll never figure out what happened.

Hospitals are usually hiring. A friend of mine missed a drug test appointment, and that really created an employment problem therafter. If you apply to a Nursing Aide job, keep track of the drug tst appointment time, and take a taxi, or whatever you have to do to get to the appointment on time. I guess a Taxi driver can babysit your children while you are inside, if necessary.

Your husband may not consciously acknowledge that you are a good cook, but 90% of thinking occurs sub-consciously. Since you are a good cook, I wouldn't worry about H going anywhere. Maybe H is just unhappy about something he feels you won't change your mind about. Maybe H talks about divorce, to get your attention.

You might just check with his mom still, and make sure you are not missing anything that might be giving you more power. One of the other Boundaries Laws is that the more you put into a marriage, the more you get out.

Why do you say your husband can't handle books of strange philosophies?

A sideways glance can communicate a disdain that can be read by H, and hurt or at minimum discourage, or lessen the affinity in the marriage. H does not have to be psychic to read sideways glances. Are you keeping track of your sideways glances, and their feelings of origin? Can you convert any to Love? It seems to me taht you can take an approach of not agreeing with strange philosphies, but placing a boundary on yourself, not to express disdain for the philosophies. I am trying to do that with my wife, who gets carried way with some sermons on the Christian Bible, and it is not always easy to keep the balance, between not entirely agreeing, and avoiding expressing disdain.

If your family supported striking H, then you have been unhappy with H for some time, and you have let your family know about it. Think back to what you have told your family, and try to see what boundaries you can work out on those issues. You might let your family know about LB's and the Boundary Principle of Loving God, so they can give you more constructive feedback, in addition to supportive comments.

You would like your husband to speak well of you to his family, so you might place a boundary on yourself, of withholding derrogatgory info on H, from your family. H can see the sideways galnces from your family members, and know what you have been saying about him.

Your goals seem to be to regain the affection you had in the marriage. What are your goals in Marriage Therapy? I have participated in individual, group and marriage therapy. There is a wide variation in approaches to marriage therapy. I have been with my wife to several counslors, but none of them were right on. The feelings after counseling were always more tension after counseling. If there was some log jam you were trying to shake loose, I could see the risk of the conflict created by Marriage therapy.

Your husband mentioned your pushing him away when you were caring for your daughters. You mentioned that you are not sure your husband can handle your daughters. I think you are better off getting on the same page as parents of your daughters. I think a parenting course is a much better way to build up affinity and affection, rather that marital counseling.

I remember reading some MB threads where couples split after marrige counseling. I looked to try to find them again, but did not find them. It's nice that your husband is willing to go to MC, but I see too much residual conflict built up, without enough basic foundation of affection, for MC to not be fairly risky at this time. You can build more trust with fewer LB's and more God Loving interactions. You have several days to think about cancelling the Thursday appointment. Maybe take some time to check out available Parenting courses, schools, churches, social Serivce agencies, private schools, school counselors, etc.

My wife was losing my affection over the past few weeks, and I noticed she had the attitude that her opinions on religion were of a superior value to my opinions. She was telling me that since she went ot church more often than I did, that her opinions were superior to mine. Actually, I think she was talking to her friends and cutting me down, to make herself feel more righteous, and then walking around the house like she knew best. She was talking about a religious idea, so I made a comment, and she dismisssed my interpretation as incorrrect. I asked her to re-phrase her comments, to indicate that we had a divergence of opinion, rather than that she was right and I was wrong. My affection came up over the next few days, as she started to treat me more as an equal, rather than stupid. I suggested a boundary for her of a divergence of opinion, short of my being wrong. Are you careful to avoid make-wrong statements, comments, ideas for H?

[ April 11, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

You might try to keep track of any Love Busters, or anything less than God Loving, toward your husband. See where the feelings are coming from

The feelings are coming from deep in my gut everytime my H says he was never in love with me and our marriage is over and that he HAS tried all these years. My feelings are coming from standing there and hearing my H point blank lie to my face, trip over his words and contradict himself when he swears that he has lied for 15 years and the first change he is making in himself is he took off the mask and only tells the truth now and how he isn't intentionally hurting me.

FAMILY BUDGET Before all this, we lived within our budget. My husband never ever wanted anything to do with finances although I would ask him on occasion to get involved. H always said I did a really good job. Since all this happened my H spends money (for toys for the house, ie..new TV, Camcorder, digicam, etc..) like it's water. He has really been cranking in the overtime so it's still within our budget, but that's with putting nothing aside anymore.

I am trying to let him get this out of his system a little more before I mention that our checkbook is running low. His big thing is I can't control him anymore, so I am letting him have a little fun, he has worked a lot of hours since November.

Thanks for the job info. Those are fields I was considering. The pay is pretty low though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I work 2 days a week on salary right now and make twice that for 2-7 hour days and I work from home on rare occasions. There's no room for more hours at my business and I get paid so well because I took over 2 full time jobs and successfully do it in 14 hours a week

Maybe H is just unhappy about something he feels you won't change your mind about. Maybe H talks about divorce, to get your attention.

H's biggest complaint is he never was in love with me to begin with. He "fell in love" with this other girl which I believe opened up those new love feelings, butterflies, whatever you want to call it and now he's comparing his current feelings he has for me to this homewrecker. He says it's all over with OW. I have tried to explain that those "new" love feelings don't last, they turn into a committed love that can grow when nurtured in a marriage.

H says only way our M will work is if MC shows him how to fall in love with me again. I have tried to point him in the direction of MB site, he won't hear of it. Feels falling back in love, or falling in love with me period is impossible. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Why do you say your husband can't handle books of strange philosophies?

To know my H is to know that he gets very dramatic about things, and when he puts his mind to something he will take it to the far extreme. It's hard to explain. A stupid example is when he gets a common cold, you might think he is dying, he goes out and buys every cold remedy available and then stands around sniffling in saying "I think I have pneumonia again (he had it back in 95'), I think I have bronchitis, maybe it's legionieres disease" And he staggers off to the doctor crying to him. He went to see the doctor once because his toe hurt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I went with him and the doctor was cracking up. Maybe those are bad examples but he is overly dramatic.

A sideways glance can communicate a disdain that can be read by H, and hurt or at minimum discourage,

Point taken, I am a big eye roller, bad habit, I am working on

If your family supported striking H, then you have been unhappy with H for some time, and you have let your family know about it

My family has supported me through this since 1/06 and know the emotional abuse H has been putting me through. The things he has said I haven't even begun to touch in these posts, I could literally write a book. My family also knows I have carried the burden of our house 4 bedrooms, 15 acres of land goats and chickens, my job, my kids (they are NOT a burden), myself, my H and his careers, job, military, fire Dept. My H works, period. And I am not trying to belittle that in anyway. But I keep a spotless house, beautiful kids, nice yard, animals clean, I keep up my own appearance, finances, etcc... all by myself and haven't really made a point of it until now to "complain" about it.

My family has said they have watched and admired me all these years for doing what I needed to do knowing my H was no help, so that's why they sort of "supported" me giving him a good ole fashioned whoopin`

We have talked about parenting classes, it's funny you mentioned that. I am going to look into it. H is going away for military for 2 weeks so we can't start until he gets back anyways.

I asked H last night if there is anything I can change to help improve the marriage. And as you guessed. H said "nothing"

Dear M,

In giving you my ideas, I have reviewed a number of things I should be changing for myself. I don't have any more ideas right now.

I feel that if you occasionally ask, "Is there anything I can change to make things better?" it will put things in the proper context. The fact that you can ask the question, shows that you are pretty healthy yourself, I think.

It seems you might need some boundaries on spending by H. There is POJA, I need to work on that with my wife also.

In my experience, Parenting classes have a better chance of restoring euphoric love, than a marriage counselor. It is difficult not to get into a blame contest with a marriage counselor. My rules for marriage counseling were, after several unhappy experiences:
1. Don't criticise my wife in session.
2. Do not accept anything a marriage counselor suggests, in session. Agree to consider it later.
3. Take a pad of paper, and write down any suggestions that the counselor makes. Sometimes a suggestion needs to be modified a little.
4. Let the marriage counselor know if I feel that anything the counselor has said makes me angry or miffed. Let the counselor have it. Yell at the counselor, but not my wife.

The lesson I watched last night, Boundaries, discusses Value No. 2, which is Love Your Spouse. Cloud and Townsend speak of Agapee, which is a love similar to the love that God has for us. It is like the second commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your spouse as you love yourself. Euphoric love should happen between a H and W on occasion, but the cement is the Agapee.

In ODD, consternation of others is the goal of the ODD individual. You have mentioned some things by which your husband obtains attention, over-reacting. Your being upset about your husband saying he never loved you, is attention and consternation. You may want to review how your reaction is fitting into behavior by H, as a reward for continuing the behavior. If consternation appears in your features or movements, when H says he never loved you, there may be a habit getting set up, of his getting a reward for saying that. What kind of response can you come up with that is not biting into his reward system? "I'm sure that many married people would like to have a marriage where euphoria is the order of the day."

I'm reminded of a scene in Fiddler on the Roof. The older parents have arranged a good marriage for their daughter to a well-off butcher. Their daughter says she is in love with a young, struggling student. In puzzling over the situation, the couple ask each other if they love each other. What was striking to me, is that it seemed to be the first time they had considered the question, of love. They had just been working hard together, as H and W, without time to consider whether they loved each other.

I have not mentioned my thanks for your husband's service to the country, so let me commend your husband for his service, and you for the difficulties as the wife of a serviceman.

Blessings

What kind of response can you come up with that is not biting into his reward system? "I'm sure that many married people would like to have a marriage where euphoria is the order of the day."

When H says he never was in love with me, I react like I was just punched in the gut. It takes the wind right out of me, I get very sad and tell him how out of all the words in the world, those are the ones that hurt the most.

Maybe from now on when he says that I should just walk away, end the conversation right there. What do ya think?

Dear M,

Maybe try, "I am trying to improve my comments and demeanor to be more supportive of my husband, and look at things from being considerate of everyone's boundaries. If you could set up a boundary for yourself, to avoid telling me that you never loved me, I would feel better. Could you put up that boundary for me?"

But I think you have the idea. I was upset with my wife making comments during arguments that she was going to be stepping out on me. A friend of ours told me, "Just don't bite into that. You can't control what she does anyway, so why get involved in an argument about that?"

If H is motivated to seek attention and consternation, then if he is getting rewarded for poor behavior, then the poor behavior will tend to continue, as long as it is rewarded. Recognizing what is a reward for H is important, because then you can try to give attention to behavior that is good for you.

If you make note of the things that bother you, over which you get upset, then you can work on ways to avoid getting upset about important things, to you, so you don't feed into an oppositional person's reward system

[ April 12, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler

The reward system thought is a good one, never thought of it that way. When I get upset my H says he's just telling the truth.

My H is very cold and distant with me, the look in his eyes are like he can't even stand me anymore.

I have been putting on a happy face, trying my best to stimulate conversation, and I get the same cold reply.

After our last arguement regarding our marital status Sunday night when I really showed him my backbone is back (in other words I didn't cry very much) yesterday he seemed warmer to me. The ending of the arguement was me saying that there is no way the girls and I are losing the house, which he said fine to. Then I told him that I wasn't ready to throw 15 years, which is half my life out the window. I told him that the way he is acting it's like the past 15 years meant nothing to him, and he said they did mean something to him.

I started crying saying again, that I'm not ready to just throw 1/2 my life out the window. He hugged me and we ended it there and went to bed.

I'm sick of this game where I constantly have to adjust myself, keep doing 180's to get him to warm up to me. I am getting dizzy.

Dear M,

One possible goal of Marriage therapy could be to simply let your husband get in touch with the various aspects of love that rise, peak and level off in a marriage, in general, and in his in specific.

There may be some things H is withholding from telling you about what he wants, or would like from you. There may be some issues that he is embarrassed to talk about. A marriage counselor may be able to draw him out. If you go to counesling, you may simply say, "I am trying to do better, but I think there are some things my husband would like from me that he is not letting me know about." Then you could let the counselor turn her attention to your husband. You could repeat that idea whenever the counselor turned to you, and avoid getting into blaming your husband. There must be something behind his inconsiderate approaches to you.

Just because a statement is true, does not mean the statement is not inconsiderate or hurtful, or less that optimally encouraging. One boundary that might be nice is not to have hurtful or inconsiderate remarks outside of a problem-solving session.

Just because something is not clearly verbally abusive in its wording, does not mean the comment is not hurtful or inconsiderate. You might say, “Please avoid inconsiderate remarks, unless we are in a private, problem-solving discussion. Should we arrange or schedule a problem solving discussion?” Another phrasing is the "I Message." "I feel upset when you say ..." "I feel sad when you say..." "I feel insulted when you say..." "I feel deflated when you say ..."

Another phrase that may be less than encouraging for you, might be, "We are emotionally divorced."

For discussions and resources on verbal abuse, you might do a search on a woman who struggled with a verbally abusive husband, and gave a number of helpful references in her posts. jade72, No 26189. You might do a search on her Number and look at her posts to see if any of her comments or references are of assistance to you.

I found the ISBN no. for Boundaries in Marriage in paper back:

BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE (1999), by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back: ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and Paper Back: ISBN 0-310-24314-9 (Soft Cover) Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49530.

I wish I had faster acting advice for you. I have not taken time to go back through all your posts, so I may be missing some things. I'm behind in some things I should do for my own marriage, so I'll sign off now, and check back later.

Blessings

[ April 13, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Whaler

Again, you pulled through with very good advise. I will print out this last post and practive for MC meeting.

Whatever you are reading, you seem to be absorbing it well.

But I also find myself able to give others good advise in writing, but when it comes to the real emotions of living with my H, I end up not being able to follow my own good advise.

I'm Italian and Polish, with that kind of blood raging through me no wonder I have a hard time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear M,

How did the MC session go? To the extent you were able to avoid particpating in a blame exchange, you should probably count that as a success.

Cloud and Townsed point out that ther is a difference between the discomfort of personal growth, and the unnecccary pain of things that are just hurtful. You husband has some peronsal growth potential, so there will probably be some discomfort with that growth, so you might want to plan to give him some emotional distance for the next few days, as he settles down.

Blessings

Things went awful!! I married a pathalogical liar and I am so embarrased of myself.

He doesn't want to work on the marriage, says he went because he promised my mother back when this all started. He says I emotionally abused him all of these years, sucked the happiness right out of him, he was never in love with me, was afraid I would hurt myself if he didn't marry me, that all of his marriage proposals and professions of love while in Desert Storm was his way of having a connection with the homefront, he basically used me all these years because he was afraid of being alone and the list goes on and on.

He thinks he's being a good Dad and a big man by agreeing to still live with me and the kids.

He hates the term of having his cake and eating it too, says that has nothing to do with it.

All he does is go back to the past and pick out every misspoken word or unappropriate action I ever did. When I try to bring up good points he'll agree for about 2 seconds but then think up of another bad thing that might have immediately followed the good.

He wants to cohabitate, no affection allowed!!

He admits to having gotten "emotionally" involved with two girls, but that's over. One girl wanted to get physically close to him and she has a history of hurting herself and my husband was afraid to say no to her because he was afraid she would hurt herself. My H says that's the point that he realized that he married me because he was afraid I would hurt myself (to explain, about 14 years ago, my H put his fist through the wall because I woke him up and I grabbed a handgun and ran out of the house, he chased me down. I don't have a suicidal past, that was a single instance)

Does that make any sense? He didn't realize it at the time, it took him 14 years and another girl that was known to hurt herself to come to that conclusion?

Everything is about HIS happiness. When I try to bring up the kids happiness he reverts it back to himself.

I asked him where am I to go for my needs, affection, sex, ya know, the stuff I should go to him for. His reply is to do what I choose to do, just don't go to him for it.

Help me out here my wise Whaler. I hope you reply soon. I am at the bottom of my barrel here.

Dear M,

I have read your post, and I can understand that your not feeling real chipper. But MC is rough, particularly for a few days after a session. There is the pain of personal growth, and there is the pain in helping a loved one grow.

It sounds like some important issues got discussed, and you did not lower the hammer on him, so you can think of the next approach over the next few days, just let things settle a little. I will cogitate while I take my son's car in for repairs that he is too busy to schedule himself. Amazing.

I am on my second viewing of Cloud and Townsend. My wife was watching the video with me last night. She seems interested in the concepts.

Blessings

[ April 16, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Dear M,

I have been trying to avoid giving you actual advice, but rather giving you options to further your goals, as I understand your goals from the information you give me.

But let's take a look at our options in an orderly manner, and I will try to raise some questions, that should lead us to a fuller exploration of your options.

Is there another appointment set up with the MC? When is that? Has H said he would go again?

What suggestions has the MC given in each session? As sessions progress, the MC suggestions may be more on target. List the suggestions she made for you and H. You may not wish to post all the suggestions, but you should have your list, as some things may not seem right for you now, but later you may see that the MC had beginnner's luck.

What books tapes and videos have you obtained? The goal of my input is to build a foundation for you, so that you can feel that you are operating from a base of strength, not just my suggestions.

What are the perspectives of your various support group members? You have some of your relatives on your side. What are there persepctives?

How have we defined all the problems? How we define the problems is important, as we need to choose a few to work on. Defining problems is also important to designing plans for attempting solutions.

What options exist for working on each problem, and which plans will help with the greatest number of important problems?

I still think your biggest bang is going to come from a parenting course. Have you been able to find any schedules? Above anything else, I would spend time to find some conventient for you.

If you can coordinate better with H on your daughters, everything esle will flow more smoothly. Your husband's desire for Zing love is immature, as that is not the love of a committed parent. Zing will come and go.

Let's look at your term, "Pathological Liar" There are several aspects of H's lies. One lie you suspect is about the EA. Many different types of men have told or lived falsehoods about affairs. You have not told me that you are certain that H is close to rehabilitated. One question that may be important for you, is how far does H have to go to become a reasonably good husband, for you, and how much effort do you have to put forward, and how much pain do you have to endure?

H is apparently manipulating the truth, or in denial, about the issues of Love. I'm not sure why, and I am not sure at what level of untruthfulness he is operating. If in fact H is a pathological liar, then he might be difficult to rehabilitate. Cloud and Townsend like to use the term Immature for selfish people. You mentioned that your husband is eating cake. Cloud talks about various types of maritial conflicts. The type of conflict determines what the proper response is by the other spouse. One view is that your husband is entirely wrong, and then enduring the pain of assisting in his personal growth would be an act of love.

Another type of marital problem is where one partner is largley wrong, but the other partner plays a small role in the pattern of the Wrongdoer. Cloud suggests looking carefully, to see if there is any way that there is any innterplay, even though there is a clear wrongdoer.

You mention that your husband has a good many complaints about you. There is only so much you can change, at any one time. You are initiating counseling, you are trying 180 Degree Divorce Busters, and you are enduring considerable difficulty with your husband's inconsiderate remarks. Do you feel you have the right mix of efforts? And for each effort, do you have people who are supporting your direction, from whom you can derive encouragement?

Cloud talks about not protecting our spouses from the consequences of their repeated actions/inactions. Are there consequences that H should be facing at this time, which are logically related to his immature actions/inactions, from which you are protecting him? Marriage is a contract. If one party breaches a contract, there are consequences. If you had it to do over, what would you have put in a pre-nuptial contract? What are the options in your state, for a contract to be signed, which would control some aspects of the marital relationship, and remmain in effect even in the event of divorce?

In other words, Marriage is a contract, and your husband is not fulfilling some asepcts of the contract, like being affectionate. H is using inadequate excuses for breaching the contract. He made a deal, and now he is backing out, to a certain extent. Is there a situation for justice to operate, or should we rely on rehabilitation?

Blessings

[ April 16, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

Well, H is on his way for his 2 weeks for the Army.

We had an o.k. night, watched T.V., fell asleep, woke up and went to bed.

He gave me an extra big hug before leaving and said I love you.

I know he loves me, he's just not in love and he wants to explore his avenues (see if the grass is greener on the other side). That hurts

He likes the attention women give to him. He says the woman he fell in love with filled a void in him he didn't even know he had and it's something I can't fill because I am not her.

I can sort of understand that. When I look back at past relationships b4 my H, I had some guys that treated me like a queen, and filled my EN's, but it just wasn't there to fall in love with them, something was missing in my heart.

But with my H, whom I can't really say filled my EN's at the beginning nor all these years, there was just something there, can't explain it. Even after all he's put me through, I still love him and am still in love.

It's when I honestly look at the above statements that I have doubt in my mind. The doubt lies in no matter what I do, how hard I work that my H will never fall in love with me, I will never fill that space in his heart. I am so scared.

Whaler:
I go alone next Thurs, H is away. H agreed to go to MC for co-parenting therapy.

MC suggestions: That we work on our marriage. H hardly lets MC get a word in. H sits there and drudges up the past even though MC does interrupt him and say that doesn't do much good. H say he doesn't see "us" happening so he doesn't have motivation to work on marriage.

BOOKS/TAPES: HNHN, LOVEBUSTERS, SURVIVING AN AFFAIR, THE DIVORCE REMEDY, DR PHIL RELATIONSHIP RESCUE.

OP perspectives: They all agree that the way H is acting is a total opposite of the man they have known all these years who has only expressed the deepest love for me.

Problems: I'll list top 3 that i know
1. H not in love with me ->All I can do is follow Plan A. I am having trouble with boundery of him contacting other women. I even suggest comprimise of he can contact via phone but not in person. He refused, says that's controlling him.

2. H hates negative comments ->I have stopped venting to him which I don't see as fair. Everyone needs to vent about the car that drove too slow, stuff like that. But that was easy for me to stop

3. H doesn't want to be controlled ->ie. In past H would want to go out for beers after maybe not being home all week, I'd ask him to stay home with me, he would even though he didn't want to and that built up resentment. H says knowone will ever control him again -> I have let him do as he pleases for now but that's not going to be a long term approach.

how far does H have to go to become a reasonably good husband, for you, and how much effort do you have to put forward, and how much pain do you have to endure?
H would have to recommit to marriage and stop contact with OW. I will and have been putting 200% effort. Pain? I have endured the most harsh words a person could ever say to another from my H. Not sure how much more I can take. Only time will tell/.

enduring the pain of assisting in his personal growth would be an act of love.

VERY TRUE!! I am trying to help my H, I have asked him how I can help him but he doesn't feel nor see a problem with him. I don't know how to help him besides just to love him, but it's hard to love from the distance that my H has put between us.

Are there consequences that H should be facing at this time, which are logically related to his immature actions/inactions, from which you are protecting him?

Oh yes, I feel his mother, boss and military superiors should be informed. But I know without a doubt that will build a TON of resentment with my H and he claims he has a lot of resentment towards me as it is. So actually those consequences would be put on me also. I feel that any consequences I could apply to my H would come back on me and girls also, ie: Telling him to move out would produce financial consequences on the girls and I.

A predivorce contract cost money, a lot plus H won't sign one.

H is not fulfilling marital contract because he says he has emotionally divorced me and our marriage is over in his eyes.

Whaler: I need to sincerely express my gratitude for the time and patience and thought you have applied to my situation. There's a special place in heaven for unselfish people as yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear M,

I caught a radio show the other day, with Cloud and Townsend, New Life Ministries. You might check the times for your area, to see if you might be able to listen. Also, I think tapes are available of the radio shows. I was told that one couple likes to play the tapes over and over. The tapes have various problem salving approaches laid out, so each time you listen to the tapes, your new problems will have a fresh perspective. The video tapes and books were $66.00 from Walmart.com. My wife has indicated that she will listen to the tapes again, with me. I even asked my wife to tgry to do a better job of supporting my shifting ideas, to which she gave a verbal agreement.

You state the problem from the perspective as that your husband has a hole which you are unable to fill. There is some logic to that perspective. You can understand the concept of Less Zing, and More Zing.

I suspect that your definiton of happiness and success has been tied to pleasing your husband, and receiving his WTG's (Way to go), from H. I suggest that you structure a system of experiencing happiness and success, by recognizing your relationship and communication skills, in addition to your radiant beauty(MB Photo). You can't force someone to love you. But you can do a big part to create an atmosphere where affection can be encouraged and nurtured. I suggest that a more solid place to find happiness, is in making progress in your relationship skills. Whether or not H is able to take advantage of your skills, and your increase in skills, is not our problem, it is THEIR problem.

I am suggesting that you delinieate what problems of H you are taking on, and hand them back to him. If H married a woman with less than maximum zing, and had children with her, that is H's problem, not your problem. It is H's job to figure out what to ask his wife for, to attempt to increase any sagging interest in the marriage.

The other problem of H's that I suspect you could release a little, is the care of your daughters. I suggest you list out what tasks that H could do, on which days, suggest that H take responsibility for the task. By taking on all normal maternal responsibilities, you may be missing a chance to shirk some of the jobs over to your husband, giving him more of a feeling of partnership in the parenting of the children.

This will probably be difficult for you, as you are now doing everything for your daughters while H is on duty. I suggest that you rationalize whatever it is that the girls need, and resolve that you are going to refuse to lift a finger on the issue. "H, could you make sure the girls brush their teeth before they go to bed?" And resolve to do nothing yourself for the time when H is home, reasonably available. Resolve that your daughter's teeth will fall out, before you ask them to brush their teeth. Hold H responsible. Get him involved. This will go against all your maternal instincts, and you will be torn with visions of your daughers never being asked on a date because H did not get them to brush their teeth, but stick to the issue your choose. Get H involved.

I suspect that you might do the laundry. I remember an MB post by a dissatisfied wife, who resolved that her husband would be re-wearing dirty shirts, unless he started washing his shirts himself. She had a particular place where she stack her husband's laundry, and showed him where she kept the soap, and just let her husband's laudry stgack up, and after some sharp comnplaining, he finally started doing his shirts himself.

I have a chair in the laundry room, where I stack up clothers that don't seem productive for work, to wash, particularly for my college kid. I am very upbeat and pleasant about it. "I am washing a load of dark clothes, I have room for a pair of Levis. Do you have anything you would like washed?" But the pile sits there otherwise.

I am concerned about H's spending time alone in his room. There are wide differences of opinions and feelings on ideal boundaries on MB threads. Here is a cooperative approach post: MB thread on diverse views It's not something to really discuss here, it is just an idea for you to research on your own.

If H avoids inconsiderte remarks, he gets clothes washed. If inconsiderate remarks are made that day, H's clothes sit. In other words, get something halfway logically connected going.

One reason I bring up the idea of a Prenuptual contract, is to ask you to think of extra things that you are doing for H, and if H is being inconsiderate, then you could cut back on some extras.

Blessings

[ April 17, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

M- I saw your picture on the picture thread. You are quite beautiful - dump this loser and get someone who deserves you. Whoops, I forgot I am on MarriageBuilders.

Seriously, try to make your life nice, and take care of yourself. He is not the whole world.

Dear M,

Believer may be correct.

If your goal is to try to work things out with H, I will continue to try to give you ideas toward that end. There is certainly a conceptual end point, where the marriage will be more heartache than it is worth. I don't feel I have enough info to know when or where the endpoint is right now. Others may know better than I am able to see. I'll try to be suportive whenever you feel you are at the endpoint.

Blessings

[ April 17, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

M, I see my Wh's picture in your H. I don't know why I still want him. Maybe I was anticipating things will change if he does come back. At this moment, i even have no one to work with.

Did you read the book name; How the one of you can put two of you togehter. by Suan Page. It may help.

Dear Lost and Hurt,

I looked for a thread you might have started, but did not find one. I have put a number of ideas from Boundaries in Marriage in this thread. Could you post a few ideas of Page? I would not expect M to mind your posting some of your problems here, as well. I have posted a number of ideas on this thread for M, and I am not sure how much more I might have further.

Or you miight want to post a thread something like, "Thinking about Plan B," which should invite a diversity of options and opinions. Or, "When to start Plan B?"

Blessings

[ April 17, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

My goal is to save our marriage. I want the husband and best friend I had for the past 15 years prior to 1/06. He was wonderful, warm, affectionate, loving. I don't know if he's gone forever.

I keep giving him chances. My most recent "chance" is he is gone for 2 weeks, I figure this should give him some "space" to think. I will see how he acts for the first week after he comes home, hopefully we will go to counselor for parenting session and if things don't turn slightly, I am looking for him to recommit to the marriage, cut contact with other women then I may very well call his boss.

These interactions are happening on company time. I have held off on this step because I know my husband is going to go through the roof and I have a feeling he may start divorce procedeeings.

I feel like he's playing a game with me and if I don't play right then he will throw it in my face that he was going to try but I screwed it up.

Do you undestand?

Mine is Am I in Plan A. I should change it to Soon I will be in Plan B. Thanks a lot.

Yes. I am having a bad time today too. The adultery seems to be the least of our problems, and I am at my wits end.

I guess I am back to square one. Just pray for him and go on with my life. No phone calls, no visits or invitations to visit. He can give me a call when and if he decides he wants to be married.

I could go on with my life if I didn't have my beautiful daughters whom love their Daddy so much and do not know what's going on.

H is using them as his shield. He keeps saying he is still here in the house for them. I know part of that is true, but I also know that my H doesn't want to have to go through a divorce and lose the house and everything in it so that's where he's coming up with the live together and lead seperate lives. H also knows I will do whatever it takes to keep my girls happy, even at my own expense. He is taking full advantage of that.

How do I set my boundery with him to stop contact with other women and work on the marriage?

I have told him I will not tolerate him contacting these other women. But what does that really mean besides a bunch of words?

When we talk about him moving out he automatically says "Fine, we'll get a divorce then, sell the house, split everything up and I will see the girls whenever I want. You want to make this difficult". See, he knows the last thing I want to happen is for the girls (and I for that matter) to lose the house where they have a beautiful yard, nice neighbors and to move to some tiny apartment and to not live with their Daddy. He's got me backed into such a corner. I tell him there's an option where everyone will win and that's for us to work on the marriage. He disagrees, he says he'll lose.

H says that for every article I read how divorce is bad for the kids and can find one where staying married is bad for the kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I emailed him MB's article regarding divorce and children, he won't read it.

It's not like we're a fighting household, we arn't and never have been. It's a very peaceful one. I mean we've had our disagreements, arguements here and there don't get me wrong. My girls are the most happy, well adjusted kids and a divorce would send them spiraling down and my H just does not see that.

I guess you can just keep hanging in there. Most WS's do come back to the marriage. In the meantime, just take care of your girls and yourself. Do nice things for you.

I think it is important for you to get your needs met somewhere. It could be women friends, hobbies, or other activities. But you need to save your strength, and keep your self-esteem.

Dear M,

I have reservations about telling others about the EA.

It is true that you need to use words to set boundaries. But by dividing up who owns which part of the problem, you can fashion logical consequences.

Let us suppose that we can define a problem as that H is having an EA at work.

This reminds me of a time when I suspected that my wife was having an EA and I suspect, a PA, with a married man in the neighborhood. My children and others let me know that my wife was spending a lot of time in friendly conversation with OM. I was working extra hours at a salaried job where extra hours were expected. My wife and I had agreed on my taking the job, but she had not anticipated my being away so much, although she still desired the prestige that came with the job. I approached my wife and asked her to cut back on her talking to the OM, as I felt the relationship was getting out of hand. My wife agreed verbally, to cut back, but I also talked to the OM, personally, and just allowed myself to sound a little nutty, like a good person to avoid, for instance. Things seemed to calm down, and the guy has moved out of the neighborhood. My wife never admitted more than an EA.

You seem short of money. So expensive options seem to be limited.

You seem to be reluctant to move to an apartment with our duaghters. Cloud and Townsend would say to get comfortable with your fall-back options. I have a folder on my desk titled Cheap Digs. When things are looking bleak, I start calling around to find features in apartments, and compare shop. It makes me feel better to know what my otptions are.

Telling H's boss would be one power play. That idea indicates your are a direct, solution oriented person, which is a nice person. I congratulate you for your good character, but I will make some other suggestions, that are more devious, and may be more surgically precise.

Perhaps you heard the story of the man who rose quickly up the corporate ladder, achieving Vice President at age 30. He rose by learning his boss's job, updating his boss's resume, and sending out his boss's resume for better jobs. When his boss got a better job, the man was ready to step into his boss's job. He then repeated the process.

I would suggest that you get more information about OW. Get her asked out for date, and get her new job offers. Maybe get H another job. Complaining to the boss may be the best idea, but I can envison a number of consequences of your input that might adversely affect the situation, and I don't see your being able to control what happens. How tough is it to get her phone number and have single guys call her up. If you go out to a club, have her number to give out to guys you think she might like. Even tell the single guys why you need them to work an this gal. Even get the single guy's phone number to follow up withthe guy to see how he is doing with OW. With H out of town, this would be the ideal time for single guys to be calling up OW. Is OW married? I think having someone inside the company to give you some information would be helpful. I'm not sure H's boss is the right guy to approach. Perahps a married receptionist or phone operator.

But really that is all extra, and should only be done if you are comfortable with it. It is not your job to solve your husband's problem that he allowed to get out of hand. (Boundaries) You mentioned reducing contact with OW. Can H change jobs? This is his problem, and he ought to be the one to solve it. Can you relocate? Is your house and pastures more important than relocating and getting your husband back? Boundaries recommends that the complaining, or unhappy, spouse look for things to actively improve or change. What else can you imporve or change, related to getting H away from OW?

If I were to recommend who to talk to, I would suggest talking to the family members of OW, and ask them to find OW a man, other than H. You can drive around with your 2 daughters, or get a baby sitter, and collect info on OW. There is no law against collecting info on someone. It does not appear to me that you believe that H has cut it off with OW at work.

My wife will not read either. She mostly refuses to listen to tapes or CD's. But she will watch telvision with pictures. My wife and I watched the Boundaries in Marriage video again last night, and fell asleep with the tape playing. If H will watch TV with you in the common areas of the house, you might get a security gate to close, to keep your daughters up stairs, except with your opening the gate, when you need privacy in the house. Or maybe you have a better system for privacy in the common areas of the house? Alarm bells on the girls doors? When I was at the Video store, I say DVD on sale for Kama Sutra and Kama Sutra Vol 2. These are Eastern secrets in becoming enchanting. One of my past mentors spok with respect about the Kama Sutra. Maybe ther is wisdom there.

There is supposed to be another Clound and Townsend Video being released soon, on another book thy did, I belive the Title is PERSONAL GROWTH.

One easy way to set a boundary, is to follow the Golden Rule. Acknowledge an area where you yourself could do better for the marriage, and devote some energy toward improving that part of yourself to improve the marriage. Each complaint that H has, must have a corresponding aspect of self-improvement. If he won't tell you which one type of self-improvement to pick, pick one for yourself. You could go to a used bookstore and find a book for $0.25 that is on self improvement, or whatever seems to be the cheapes and most appropriate. You could get a self-imporovement book from the library.

Then tell H what area you are trying to improve, and how, and mention that you would apprecite his cutting back any chance of contact with OW. There are different formulas for boundary loving spouses, than for boundary resistant spouses. So when you make the request of H, you probably should pretend that you believe he has ended contact, but just ask him to try to be even more extra distant from OW.

In re-reading this post, my ideas seem more random and unconnected than coherent and applicable. I trust your wisdom to sift through and see what might be helpful.

Blessings.

[ April 18, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]

I am not sure who the girl(s) are anymore. It's complicated. See, these things are happening 6 hours from here in a town where my H overnights for work.

H has since cut me off from seeing the cell bill by doing everything online and it's password protected. This month is the first month I don't have access to it. As of last month the 2 girls he was involved with prior (and I contacted) he was not calling any longer but there was a new number from the same town that he called a lot!!. I have called this girls cell phone many times and left messages with my number and she hasn't returned any calls.

How can he expect me to agree to sit back, live in the same house and just let him continue with this "single" life he is creating?

Dear M,

If you have been checking up on H, you might try the approach of not checking, which is in the 180 Degree Divorce Busters.

On the other hand, if the girl is not calling you back, there may be something there, and it may be worth the time or money needed to check out the number, or hire a private investigator to check out the number, or other information you have. Do you have a brother, or any men in your support circle? Have a guy call her, see if she answers.

But if H is willing to participate in counseling, parental or whatever, and he is willing to talk about his marital complaints to the counselor in front of you, and you can keep your cool, and not verbally blast him, you may wish to rely on the counseling process to bring some maturity to his life. To your marriage.

In the mean time, you might just work on making things better for your marriage, best you can. I have tried to be diplomatic toward you in making suggestions for changes you might consider for yourself, and for your approach to various aspects of married life. You might make an offline list of your options for making married life more enchanting for H. You might go back over everyone's suggestions, and references, as you have time, while H is away, to see if there is anything subtle you can add to your list of options for increased enchantment.

Marriagebuilders suggests avoiding Love Busters. But ideally, we should be encouraging to our spouses, and even creating an enchanted household for our spouse. You might tap the wisdom of the MB posters by posting a question in General Questions requesting ideas for a wife to create an enchanting household for a suspected wayward husband. You might also check out a book, "The Five Languages of Love" Growth Track to be sure that you are not just avoiding Love Busters, but reaching up to Encouraging and Enchanting.

Establishing Boundaries can perhaps be simplified into processes this way:

1. Examine youself. Look for boundaries that your spouse told you about, or that you have figured out yourself, and see if there are ways the you can better respect your spouse's boundaries.

2. Look at your overall goals and values. List these out in a loving way.

3. Define any problems. Prioritieze the problems.

4. for a few important problems, forumlate changes in actions or attitudes that you would like your spouse to change.

5. Formulate a presention to y0ur spouse in the most loving and considerate way possible, and in partiular acknowledging any actions that you yourself should work on.

6. Select a suitable time, and present your ideas, in a loving yet directly confrontationl manner. A Loving Confrontation.

7. Give your spouse time to adjust.

8. If the problem persists, look for ways that you are extending valuaed privileges to the spouse who is resisting change, and see if you can logically withdraw soem of your extensions, as a further loving confrontation.

This is my current level of understanding of Cloud and Townsend.

Holding a direct vison and request is good to ask for what you want, Most directly, I think you would like H to work toward being open with you about his contacts. That would mean asking H to conduct himself in a manner in which no electronic trails were created, that he felt he had to keep secret from you with passwords, etc. But since he has said he feels emotionally divorced from you, that formulation, asking him to avoid or minimize secretive contacts, is probably too advanced.

The idea of H thinking about the appreciation his daughters will be showing him, as, in the future, he walks each daughter down the aisle when they get married. The idea of the daughters showing their appreciation of Dad, for all he does. Logically, this also brings in Mom, and how H treats daughter's Mom. So the non-awfulizing phrases I came up with were, "I hope our daughters realize the value of your contribuiton to their futures." "I hope our daughters appreaciate all you do for them." "I hope you will make the decisions that bring you honor in the eyes of our daughters." "I see our daughters growing more appreciative of their father every day." The idea being that if H is going to have the best relationship with his daughters, he cannot be dishonorable to their mother. By envisioning H becoming more appreciated by daughters, H should treat Mom better.

I am going to be jammed up over the next week, so I may not be responding as quickly as ordinary, but I'll get back, at least after Sunday.

Blessings

[ April 20, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]