I am so upset. I just went for a late night walk with my husband. He again told me that he isnt happy and wants to move out as soon as he can afford it. I reminded him that to leave his wife and children was a wicked thing and that "wickedness never was happiness". he then told me to f*** off. I turned round and walked home anotehr way. I guess reminding him of that was a lovebuster but it seems noone else is prepared to. All his friends talk of him being true to himself because hes gay and cant help it. I wish one of them would shake him up and tell him some home truths. Guess I just came to vent. Thanks for listening. Its 30 mins later and hes still not bothered to come home.....

Dear Debra,

I am a husband, and I have not read your other posts. I fancy myself an idea percolator. Perhaps you are not looking for ideas.

I am personally working with Boundaries in Marriage, by Cloud and Townsend.

Your situation is a little different from many on the MB boards.

Cloud gives 10 laws of Boundaries and 6 types of conflicts. The basic idea is that problems are defined, and responsibilities are apportioned accoring to these principles.

Perhaps you are not looking for creative solutions. Many posters on MB would support your taking a Plan B approach, and saying your way or the highway.

If you are ready for Plan B, then disregard any ideas I present of trying to work things out.

Cloud talks about loving confrontation. Saying that H is wicked to want to leave is a slight over-simplification. It is also a make-wrong statement. The idea of boundaries, avoids the concept of proving one spouse right or wrong.

Boundaries can be viewed as 2 overlapping cirlces. His, Hers, and Ours. The bottom half of the overalapping circles is what you agree on. The top half of the overlapping section is what you have compromised to agree upon.

What is it that H wants, that he is obstructed from obaining in your marital abode?

What can you offer H, as a compromise, for what he wants?

What are you refusing to offer to H as a compromise that might help in solving the problems?

How can you create compromises on issues that are in His or Hers areas of the circles?

I personally feel uncomfortable writing out bills or sorting mail while my wife is home. I procrastinate on paying bills, anyway. My sometimes fantasy is to move to my own little efficiency apartment, where critcal or unsupportive remarks wil not be heard.

You say you want H back, but you don't provide a list of problems and possible solutions.

To say that your husband turned gay, is also an oversimplification. There are many shades and shapes of Gay and Bi. To the extent that there are unsatiated desires, what alternatives for meeting those desires are within your acceptable range? What are the current limits of your acceptable range? What compromises on those issues are you willing to make? What compromises have you offered, that you feel he has unreasonably rejected?

Blessings

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear Debra,

I read the other two threads you started recently. My above questions still seem relevant.

Here is the Boundaries References:
BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE (1999), by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back: ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and Paper Back: ISBN 0-310-24314-9 (Soft Cover) Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49530.

Boundaries in Marriage Workbook, Paperback, ISBN 0-310-22875-1.

Boundaries, Face to Face (2003) by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

cloudtownsend.com
www.drhenrycloud.com
www.newlife.com

Boundaries Course Video, with Cloud and Townsend, comes with the Boundaries in Marriage, the Particpant's Guide and the Instructor's Guide.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1813624&sourceid=1500000000000000040820
I have the boundaries Videos, and my wife will watch along sometimes.

I have put forth a number of ideas in my postings with M 01069, and you might click on my recent posts for a wider range of ideas.

Have you established yourself as trustworhty? What othe Love Busters have you released? What issues of trust has H disclosed to you? What issues of trust might yet remain undisclosed? How can you set a level of openness that would engender the disclosure of delecate wishes?

What are all the reasons H gives for wanting to leave? What other issues do you suspect?

Blessings

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Wow...I didnt expect any replies to my vent:) Thankyou Whaler.

Whaler, the problem in this situation is that he possibilities for compromise are very limited indeed. For my H homosexuality is an addiction. I have read up quite a lot about it and this is the general view of those who have worked their way out of this situation. There is no way that he can keep even a finger in the homosexual world. This is much like offering an alcoholic the occasional drink.

We belong to a church in which to practise homosexuality is seen as an abomination. It is through church that we based all our value system when we first married.I was the one who overstepped the line when I left him but he is now using this in a "whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" excuse. U see there is no possible compromise. He either has fight his temptations and stay with the family and within the church or put all of it aside and live alone. He is already on a last chance probation within church where one more homosexual act will lead to his excommunication.

We live in a small community in which it would be impossible, for the sake of the possible stigma that teh children would suffer, to be openly homosexual, and he recognises this.

I do recognise that I was wrong to even mention the wickedness aspect. He knows this well enough for himself and it is somethign that is torturing him. The last thing he needs is his FWS reminding him of what is right and wrong. I do try to avoid this kind of conflict and I dont know what came over me last night.

I wouldnt even consider PlanB at this point. I have so much work to do in reestablishing our relationship and my importance to him. WE were always best friends and I am working on getting back to this.Then if he does finally leave he will have a huge hole ......

One thing I do wonder is how far he is using not being able to afford to move out as an excuse. I am not working, simply due to lack of jobs available for teachers and the fact that I have been homeschooling our daughter. The truth is that he could move in with his parents or with an aunt he has who lives just 3 minutes away from here and has plenty of room. He basically wants to move out and be alone. Having said that there is a small apartment that needs a lot of work in the building where his parents live but he says this is a last resort. You see he does have options but he claims he does not.

I am basically just Plan A ing as best I can. I avoid conflict as much as possible. I dont raise my voice, dont make unreasonable demands etc. Infact when I suggest he spends more time with the children he tends to react quite positively and will spend up to an hour at a time with them before returning to his computer.

As for his reasons for wanting to leaving...last night he said "so I can be more relaxed". Basically having 7 kids in the home, specially with 5 boys, can be a very noisy and sometimes aggresive business. Things are a lot better than they used to be as the children get older but he didnt want this many children and blames me for the noise round the house. He refuses to deal with conflicts between teh 8 and 11 year old (which are frequent) unless he reaches the end of his thether in which case he hits and screams at them before returning to teh computer. Basically he wants peace and quiet and that is not always possible. Basically I believe his reason for leaving is to want to escape teh responsabilities of fatherhood. He views the homosexual world as some kind of ideal wherehe can have the security of being in a mans arms (he has mentioned this to me). He was often ignored as a child as his father had done it all with his older brothers, and had very little interest in him. He was basically brought up by his Aunt and grandmother as his mother had to work due to a protracted illness his father had. He was brought up in the world of women and as such is quite arty and effeminate. this lead to him being accused of being gay from a very young age.....

he is attracted to women as well as men. he had an EA with a woman while we were separated. he decided not to persue it as she has children....u see what I mean about his trying to escape parental responsabilities?

As to his honesty, he is totally honest with me I believe. He does have friends who email him and he wont let me access his accounts but I believe there is nothing strange going on. He simply does not wish to reveal all to me as he says he doesnt want to open himself up to being hurt again. he does tell me what his friends write to him though.

I am basically trying to avoid love busters and meet his needs as best I can. I make sure we have plenty of sex (which i was get reluctant about before). I also make sure that is the kind of sex that he likes (which I was also reluctant about before). Im trying hard to get and keep the house in order (a long term process but its much better). I make sure Im always available for him as far as talking goes as I know conversation is one of his needs. Wealso go out regularly together and do things together. I make sure I always dress nicely when we go out as i know this is important to him also. I pay him regular compliments. I have no idea what else I can do except being my best. he basically says he is not ready to open up to me or anyone atthe moment for fear of getting hurt..... I think its just a case of time will tell......I need time to earn his trust back.

Hope this answers your questions. Sorry it was so long!

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Debbra ]</small>

Dear Debra,

As I mentioned, I try to generate ideas for people to find ways to make things better.

You mention noise and conflicts between an 8 and 11 year old boys. Cloud and Townsend have a book of Boundaries for Children. The boundaries concepts may make fatherhood more manageable for H. Parenting courses also helped my wife and I get along better. There are internet courses. Going out once a week for 8 weeks is also good.

Your choice of church may be something that is within your power to change. I avoid giving advice, as a general rule, and just bring that up for your consideration.

The problem with the addiction model is that it is a make-wrong approach. Absolute Abstainance is one approach. If you read other boards, you will see that there are many bisexual men. The matter is degree, secrecy and fear of ramifications, rather than a pure ideal of heterosexuality as promulgated by some preachers.

In Boundaries, having clear boundaries engenders an atmosphere of trust. Your boundaries on homosexuality seem unclear to me.

How can you assit H in meeting, or satiating his dirves for the Love he finds in homosexual acts, and how can you replace this love within the marriage?

When your husband says, "I really wish I had the money to move out!" again, why not ask what he feels he is missing.

"What is it you feel that you are missing? How can we create satiation for your feelings within the marrige?"

Treasure that feeling as it holds the key for where you have to go.

"What can we do openly" "What do we need to agree to keep secret between ourselves to avoid church criticism?"

Many Catholics I knew well, routinely ignored church teachings. But they sinned in a discreet manner. Societal values are set strictly, so we can have coherence among everyone. By keeping sin secret, or at least not flaunting sins, the fabric of the society of the Catholic Church is maintained.

If you are going to stay in that church, I suggest you consider what you want to disclose to the church, and what you want to keep private, in your marital bedroom.

I like the Unitarian church, as it is a support group for people of faith, without degrading too many types of honest people.

Here are some references that I had lumped together:


PARENTING COURSES:

Instructors for awareparenting .com Phone: 805-968-1868, California, or E Mail info@awareparenting.com

for Parent Effectiveness Training instructors in your area, Phone, 800-628-1197, or 858-481-8121, or E-Mail to info@gordontraining.com. Gordon Training, Parent Effectiveness Training



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Marital Bedroom

Biblical citations on marital cooperatin on satisfying sex drives Marital Sex and the Holy Bible
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Parenting Books, Courses and Videos

AP, Active Parenting by Michael H. Popkin. Ph. D.
Active Parenting Web Site


Tough Love Parents Manual by Phyllis and David Yourk
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Posts: 114 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |

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Nurturing Parenting by Stephen J. Bavolk, Ph. D. Nurturing Parenting Courses and Materials
1-800-688-5822

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Posts: 114 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |

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Blessings

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear Debra,

Since they put the time limit on editing posts, i can no longer copy a list of references with links. So here is my thread of references with links: Whaler's Parenting Course Links garage

Blessings

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>