"It takes great personal courage to live in that gap between "what is" and "what ought to be" and to try to close it."

I've been reading a lot about perfectionism lately. My oldest daughter is struggling with a couple forms of it and so have I. Also, my WH has some perfection-related issues (but manifested very differently than mine and my daughter's problems with perfectionism).

I came across the above quote (from Silverman) in a paper on perfectionism.

It made me think about how the BS's who post here are trying to achieve a restored, mutually satisfying, marriage. And very few people that we know in our daily lives understand or support us in this goal. Not that they don't mean well or don't want us to be happy; they just have little to no faith that our marriages can or even should be saved, that us staying married to our WS's would bring us happiness.

It's not that we don't see things the way they really are, don't realize how badly we're being treated by the WS. We just also see a goal that we still believe is attainable, worthy, and maybe even our marital duty to keep pursuing. We do see the gap between what is and what could be, and we're trying to learn and employ practical methods to close it.

I want the posters here to know that I think they are doing something truly courageous and worthy. I think our WS's will eventually realize and appreciate our efforts, even if that realization may come too late in some cases.

I know that we will be proud of ourselves and will be able to look back at our dedicated efforts to try to save our marriages with no regrets, regardless of the outcome.

And I honestly believe that MOST who try MB principles WILL succeed. I believe the statistical evidence that shows that most affairs don't pay off for the OP in the long run.
I also don't think we should beat ourselves up so much when we fail to employ MB principles with 100% perfection. We should do our best and control the temptation to LB. We should remind each other to stop trying things that will not work (like trying to teach or pressure the WS into seeing the light). But even if we don't employ MB principles 100% correctly, most affairs do end all by themselves anyway.

Time is on our side. Reality has it's own way of getting even.

Wishing us all patience and courage while we wait.

<small>[ June 07, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Dear Meremortal,

I am still working on Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend. Their 2003 book Boundaries Face to Face, gives more examples of how to confront problems in a loving way. I think avoiding LB is certainly a good rule to try for. But discussing problems, or developing and asserting a boundary, in a contructive, loving way, is a challenge I am striving for in my family.

I have perfectionist tendencies, even obsessive-compulsive, neurotic. I sometimes create problems for myself, by not getting my own perfectionism out of the way. I save too many newspapers, waiting for a great revelation to come, for which I will research my ideas, but since the great revelation has not yet revealed itself to me, I must simply stack newspapers till the great idea presents itself.

Are there ways you are feeding into the cycle of broken commitments? Is the some way to pull back any complicity? Is ther anything that can be renegotiated, that you had previosuly refused?

There are many things I would like from my wife, which I don't receive. A feeling of commitment to the vows would be a nice start. I guess I feel that thereare some other things that would also be nice, so I don't rock the boat very much. I work an what seems like I might hae some chance of getting somewhere.

Oh Well.

Blessings

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Hi Whaler,

"I am still working on Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend. Their 2003 book Boundaries Face to Face, gives more examples of how to confront problems in a loving way. I think avoiding LB is certainly a good rule to try for. But discussing problems, or developing and asserting a boundary, in a contructive, loving way, is a challenge I am striving for in my family."

With me and my WH, there is a problem with communicating in a respectful way. But it's not so much that I LB him (of course I do sometimes but even when I don't he still reacts as if I am). In almost 30 years of being with hime there has never been a right time or place, never been a right tone of voice or method of communicating with him, that he felt was OK. There is a huge list of topics that are simply taboo with him. No matter how they are brought up he instantly gets defensive and wants the conversation to stop ASAP. He very quickly resorts to verbal abuse and angry displays to stop conversations about the numerous topics he refuses to discuss. He just makes decisions without me and tells me about it after the fact. He never wants to hear about my problems, feelings, thoughts... but knows all about his female coworkers concerns (is described by them as SO sweet, understanding, sympathetic, blah-blah-blah).

"I have perfectionist tendencies, even obsessive-compulsive, neurotic. I sometimes create problems for myself, by not getting my own perfectionism out of the way."

I am the same way. I kept most of my weird perfectionist tendencies a secret from everybody until just a few years ago. I am learning to discard some ways of doing things that are destructive or simply not necessary. I'm trying to integrate and control the more positive and useful aspects of perfectionism into my lifestyle in ways that will serve me instead of trip me up. Thinking I had to wait until I could do something perfectly or completely would cause me to procrastinate, for example. Now I just go ahead and work on thigns even if it might end up a waste of some time because I later change my mind about how to do it, or it gets messed up again before I finish (housework).

"I save too many newspapers, waiting for a great revelation to come, for which I will research my ideas, but since the great revelation has not yet revealed itself to me, I must simply stack newspapers till the great idea presents itself."

I used to do that too. I was doing writing, public speaking, and media relations for some non-profits. So I had a good excuse to save the newspapers even. But it was too messy and too time-consuming to find the info when I needed it anyway. I would tell myself that I would someday sit down and sort all the info into an easy-to-use filing sytem. But I never could decide on how I wanted to set the system up LOL... I don't get the newspaper anymore.

I do the same thing with magazines. Keep them forever because there's something in there that I want (recipe, cradft project, pretty picture or poem). There are only a couple of magazines that I subscribe to now and I won't be renewing either of them (OK - because there are two other magaizes I would rather receive instead). I hardly ever buy magazines at the store anymore (used to ALWAYS get a magazine, a plant and a basket every time I went grocery shopping). Now I only buy a magazine if there are at least 3 things in it that I want, am sure I don't alreayd have at home, and don't think I will come across again someday. I scan through the magazine while in the store and if I don't see 3 recipes, craft ideas, articles, new exercises, etc. that I just have to take home, then I leave the magazine there. Sometimes I show something to one of my kids and ask them to remind me to write it down when I get home - so I can take the clever recipe or craft idea with me without the whole magazine. Also, EVERY time I sit down to read a magazine I pull out things to either put in the recycling bin (advertisements, articles I've already read or am not interested in) or to file away (recipes, instructions for making things, articles I want my kids to read for homeschool). I take magazines and books I've already read to leave in waiting rooms, book swap libraries, or just recycle them.

"Are there ways you are feeding into the cycle of broken commitments? Is the some way to pull back any complicity?"

Yes, I take too much responsibility for the marriage and that allowed my WH to not have to.
I tried to teach and talk my WH into ending the affair and into coming home. Usually when I broke plan B it was because I was feeling too confident that I had something to tell WH that I thought would convince him. Now I know I need to just keep quiet so maybe he will take the initiative to save our marriage.

But I'm still not sure how it will be possible for him to feel like a man without actually behacing like one. The problem is he has been acting just like his stepfather. The wife and kids were supposed to tiptoe around on eggshells. The stepfather believed himself to be superior to them and made sure they knew he was disgusted with them, criticize them a lot.
So now my WH seems to think that the only way he can feel liek a man and head of household is if his wife and kids are afraid of him and pretend he is without flaw and we are so flawed he can barely tolerate us. And he won't take responsibility for anything - just wants all the respect and credit without taking the lead.

"Is there anything that can be renegotiated, that you had previosuly refused?"

I did realize before that appearances and admiration were very important to my husband, but I did not share the opinion that such superficial things should be given so much emphasis. It's not that I was ugly or obese, or never praised or complimented him... It's just that I never thought it was the only thing that mattered. It's obvious that appearances and flattery are extremely important to my WH (and to most of his relatives). So I definitely should (and DID urign Plan A) put much more effort into meeting those emotional needs. Wanting to assure himself he can still pick up attractive women and wanting LOTS of attention from women are not just emotional needs my WH has though, they are more like weaknesses he has, of the bottomless pit variety. Plus whenver I would try to make plans for him to spend quality alone time with me, he always resisted. He said we couldn't afford to go on dates but has no qualms about spending money with OW. He also used the excuse that he didn't want to leave the kids with a babysitter but then moved out so now his kids hardly ever see him and have to compete with the OW and her kid for his time and money. He even turns his cell phoen off when he's with the OW so his kids can't interrupt them. And as I already mentioned he never wanted to have the sort of conversations with me that he has with other women. He allowed himself to get emotionally close to OW while keeping walls up against me.

"There are many things I would like from my wife, which I don't receive. A feeling of commitment to the vows would be a nice start. I guess I feel that thereare some other things that would also be nice, so I don't rock the boat very much. I work an what seems like I might have some chance of getting somewhere."

Good luck. IMO you should tell her everything you need, even if you suspect she won't or can't fulfill it. We are supposed to get some of our needs met by God, not other people. And sometimes we just think we need something that we can be happy without or with less of. And sometimes we need more of something than any mere mortal can provide because of something unresolved from our own pasts. Unfortunately affairs/OP's sometimes are successful at meeting even the excessive needs... for a while. The 'in love' high never lasts forever though. Maybe soem people have affairs because the need they are trying to meet is something that NO long-term realtionship can provide? Those addicted to the thrill of the chase and the chemical high and excitement of adultery aren't going to be faithful to anyone unless they deal with their addiction and unrealistic expectations.

Dear Mortal,

If communication has been a problem in your marriage, what soutions to communications are possible?

Plan B can be a step toward a solution, but I am not clear on what would be the best solution to the communications problem in your prior stages of marriage. I am not clear what you may have in mind. I believe that your love will be diminished by the type of communication that H was utilizing. What approaches to change have you already tired? Is there any timing that you could use better for communication?

I usually write up some topics, and take my wife out to lunch. Sometimes the topics I have chosen are too explosive. My wife has walked back to work from lunch, refusing to accept a ride back. I was following her in my car, and she was stomping along the side of the road, furious. A Policeman stopped and watched our little drama. Usually lunch goes smoother than that one.

My wife took the top 10 newspapers off my stack of newspapers, and I LB'd her on the phone while she was at work, saying she was breaching my trust, and that she should ask me for newspapers if she needed some. My wife is good at throwing things away, and getting rid of clutter. My wife also sandbagged me about a car she found at a bargain, as I prefer American made cars, but my wife acted like she did not know what make of car it was. I came home at 4:30 AM this morning, after sleeping over at work. My wife had nothing to say. She gets up at 5 AM to go to church with her mother.

Are there any other consequences that you could structure for your H? What was your last brain storm that you felt justified a breach of Plan B? What ideas are now percolating to share with H?


Quote on coummunication from your last post:
"With me and my WH, there is a problem with communicating in a respectful way. But it's not so much that I LB him (of course I do sometimes but even when I don't he still reacts as if I am). In almost 30 years of being with hime there has never been a right time or place, never been a right tone of voice or method of communicating with him, that he felt was OK. There is a huge list of topics that are simply taboo with him. No matter how they are brought up he instantly gets defensive and wants the conversation to stop ASAP. He very quickly resorts to verbal abuse and angry displays to stop conversations about the numerous topics he refuses to discuss. He just makes decisions without me and tells me about it after the fact. He never wants to hear about my problems, feelings, thoughts"

Blessings

<small>[ June 09, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

meremortal,
that post means alot to me. some pepole have told me to kick ww out on her ear,some have told me that i'm up on the top of their lists of pepole that they admire.

MM it means alot to hear someone hear giving all of us ,including yourself,the props we all deserve!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Meremortal, that was a superhuman thread. Well written well reflected upon. I have been visiting here for advice, encouragement, and reality check because things seem so surreal.

If you post didn't encourage me, It did something even more important.

It inspired me.

Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (by the way that was my very first smiley face on MB)

Dear Meremortal,

Thank you for your encouraging post. This really strikes me

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Time is on our side. Reality has it's own way of getting even.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It serves to remind me to be patient and no LB. I was closed to last night on the phone with my WH. Managed to keep a check before it even started. Praise the LORD!

Something I read and would like to share and encourage all...

"Maybe your marriage has never been great. It doesn't matter where you start; what matters is that you set your sight on eternity. Don't give up. Marriage is too precious. . Ride through the storms, clinging to the Lord, and remember that what matters is not how you start, but how you finish."

May the Lord bless us all!

rosj