I have been reading this forum fairly often and get a lot of good advice from other’s posts. However, I’m feel I’m at a crossroads and would appreciate any direct feedback you might have. A (not so) brief history:
· D-Day: December 2003 – the day before our 6th wedding anniversary – wife having affair with her boss. P.A. 3 months, EA about 9 months.
· After initial separation we agreed to try and work it out. Began counseling. Wife returned to work with promises that it was over.
· February – wife walks in on the OM, who is also married, having a go with another woman in her office. Is very angry that night. The next day comes home full of forgiveness for the OM.
· Jan – March: Counseling doesn’t take us far. Wife just doesn’t open up in session. During several talks at home, mostly inebriated, she discloses more information on the A than I should have listened to. I was carrying out an incredible plan A, being very understanding, not getting angry, trying to show her what she was risking losing.
· End of March wife gets very moody. A few weeks later I get into her email and find out she is moody because the OM was ending the PA. Apparently they went back to sleeping together at the beginning of the year. Wife promises it is really over.
· May – I find out EA is still ongoing. I leave the house. Wife quits work. She promises it’s really, really over. I come back. Wife acts depressed, explaining (variously): ”lack of social interaction” being at home all day (but doesn’t want to get a job), having a mid-life crisis at 30, needing to find herself, blah blah blah.
· Two weeks ago – Wife gives me a spontaneous present – a CD of romantic songs. I spend week excited about my wife’s small turn around. We spend the week listening to the CD.
· Last Sunday – I find out EA is still going on and that the CD was actually a birthday present for Him and she made an extra copy for me. He calls weekly. She stops by the office to see him. When I confront her, wife promises that is really, really, really over this time. She goes to see him later in the week to “say goodbye, for good.”
· Last four days – wife is moody, admits to me she is having a really difficult time dealing without him in her life. She gets upset when I refuse to talk to her about her feelings for him (the one positive thing I think I’ve done for myself in 6 months). Claims (as she always has) that she does really want to be with me, that she loves me but is just confused because she loves him too. I feel that she has chosen me simply because he wouldn’t leave his wife and kids.
· Yesterday – wife changes password on her email account. Email was a big part of the EA. She has asked many times in last three months if she could change her password – said she needed some sense of privacy and that it would be a sign that I trust her again. I refused. Counselor sided with me. History log on computer shows that she was on email all day long yesterday. I hardly slept last night.

I’m beyond knowing what to do at this point. A part of me still loves her. A big part of me feels obligated, spiritually, to do everything in my power to hold the marriage together. Part of me wants to run. Mostly I’m just numb, when I’m not hurting.

I did what I think to be an incredible Plan A in terms of how I acted towards her. I didn’t do such a good job working on myself. I feel like everything I have done for her in the last 6 months has just allowed her to continue to manipulate me. My several attempts at a Plan B have fallen on their face, as I can’t seem to carry through on the No Contact part of Plan B for more than a few days.

Some days I believe that my wife loves me and is trying. Other days I just think she is extremely selfish and wants the best of both worlds. Selfish enough that she is willing to put me through hell if she gets what she wants.

I have lost all respect for myself because I have let her manipulate me over and over again. How do get to a place where I feel whole again; a place where I don’t spend all day wondering what she is doing; a time when I don’t hurt?

Hi,

I'm really sorry that you find yourself here. I'm responding because even though my wife was only in an EA due to distance our situations seem very similar. From 10/03 to 3/04 I was lead to believe that the EA was over only to discover it was not. During that time, sometimes she seemed to be doing ok and at other times was depressed and withdrawn.

Your wife's behavior seems indicative of the depression that can sometimes come while a WS is going through withdrawal. This is why she will complain of a problem ("being stuck at home") but does nothing about it. Very often the pain of the withdrawal & the depression are too much and they go back to the OP.

I wish I could pass on the great advice I got from Awed18 verbatum. In short your wife it reads like your wife is in withdrawal and depressed and still foggy. While she is there I would recommend that you continue to plan A.
I can't tell you how many times I listened to my FWW talk about the OM and how he made her feel. At first it killed me to do so but it was also such valuable information and it went a looong way to show her that I really was there for her. It sounds like the is ending because of the OMs choice so she is lonely and confused and still has not chosen to come back to the M. Show her that there is something to come back to. I know how it feels right now. Because she has not chosen to committ it feels can feel like she is not really there.

Also work on yourself. Nothing made me more attractive to my FWW than when I started to focus on myself, simply for me. You make yourself stronger and she will see you in a new light.

On the password thing. I would simply state to her that she cannot keep that hidden from you and work towards recovery at the same time. Tell her how it makes you feel. Honestly, how can you trust her at this point. She will have to earn that trust. Don't LB. There is no need for a demand or ultimatum. Since she has not committed to the M yet she may not respond but she will know what is required.

Take care,

JGNC

Dear Solo,

Your post does not describe how you marriage fits into the MB 10 Emotional Needs:


MB Emotioanl Needs:

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration


Which needs are important to you and your wife?

You don't mention any needs that OM is fulfilling.

You don't mention your level of communication and listening skills. What are your goals in MC? What has MC sugested? What other MCs availble to you? What do you and W do in your spare time? How can you make that time more meaningful?

You describe the problem as wife is totally wrong, and you are totally right. Where could you do bettr to fill W's needs?

What courses have you taken together? What self-improvement has crossed your mind?

I am working on Boundaries, and found them rela helpful.


BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE (1999), by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, Available in Leather, ISBN 0-310-24612-1, Hard back: ISBN 0-310-22151-X, and Paper Back: ISBN 0-310-24314-9 (Soft Cover) Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49530.

Boundaries in Marriage Workbook, Paperback, ISBN 0-310-22875-1.

Boundaries, Face to Face (2003) by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

cloudtownsend.com
www.drhenrycloud.com
www.newlife.com

Boundaries Course Video, with Cloud and Townsend, comes with the Boundaries in Marriage, the Particpant's Guide and the Instructor's Guide.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1813624&sourceid=1500000000000000040820
Boundaries Groups:

overcomersoutreach.org
Overcomer's Outreach Boundaries Groups

celebraterecovery.com
Celebrate Recovery Boundarie Groups


Lecture Reservations:
newlife.com
1-800-new life
703-729-3900, Chris Cole on Groups

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

jgnc – thanks for your advice, your empathy and for sharing your experience. One of the main reasons I read this forum is because it helps to know that others are going through the exact same thing.

Whaler – thanks for a bit of a kick in the butt! Reading back through my post I think I was mostly venting. But you reminded me that it has been a while since I read through and, more importantly, practiced the concepts here. I think I have gotten into a pattern of feeling rotten and feeling sorry for myself. Understandable I guess but not necessarily helpful.

Back in February when I first found this website I read through everything and put it into practice. Looking back now I realize that I was empowered by it because I had a goal, a plan and a methodology. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how I’ve been feeling lost and how I just don’t know what else to try. Today I realized that’s because I haven’t really been trying anything lately. Carrying out an effective Plan A does require the BS to suck up a lot of pride and a lot of pain. Maybe I just hit a point where I shut down a bit to try and avoid more pain.

Anyway, thanks a lot and I’m going to do some serious thinking about how to get back into a effective Plan A for the sake of my marriage and myself.

Dear Solo,

There are a lot of ways to do Plan A. The ideal is to find ways to express requests for boundaries, and avoid a feeling of sucking up.

Marriage builders is seldom the whole answer, for people who put themselves back together after marital difficulties.

I asked you a number of questions which you have not yet answered. Certainly some may take some thought, and some may cut too personal. But it is a good therapy and disipline to copy a list of questions, and then answer each question. If you feel kicked, it is because the questions kicked you. I did not say you should change anything.

You do need a plan, for your own sanity. My plan is to express my frustrations, and give emotional distance when my wife gets over my limits. Today I criticized my wife as creating chaos and being inconsiderate, which was really Love Busting. My wife come up with some compromises. I explained that I was venting, and then explained the source of my frustrations. I excused my LB's as Venting, and she seemed to understand, and we came up with a better uderstanding of my frustrations.

I do not have a formula for you, for your plan, but I will continue to encourage you to develop a coherent plan, so you can feel positive about yourself. Marriages have problems and fail, but an individual can conduct himeslf in the marriage, such that he feels good about his part. If my marriage fails, I just want to be able to look future women in the eye, and say I worked to solve the problems in my marriage, and that I am trustworhty.

Blessings

Whaler - you are right, I didn't answer your questions specifically in my reply. But trust that I have been giving them a LOT of thought today. I just didn't have time to write down answers earlier while at work. And I meant the "kick in the butt" comment as a thanks.

I've been having a really good day. First day of rational, coherent thinking in a long while. Was getting ready to sit down and start putting some thoughts to paper when I picked up the mail. My wife's cell phone bill was there and I opened it (she is out of town). 241 phone calls to the OM in the last thirty days! My head is just spinning.

It was funny that you said a couple of things in your last reply that I have been thinking about all day - "If my marriage fails, I just want to be able to look future women in the eye, and say I worked to solve the problems in my marriage, and that I am trustworhty." and "There are a lot of ways to do Plan A. The ideal is to find ways to express requests for boundaries, and avoid a feeling of sucking up." I'm going to extrapolate "sucking up" to how I've been characterizing it today - being a doormat. Earlier I read Ark's story about the bird and the statue which talks about the self-fulfillment that can come from giving of one's self without the expectation of getting anything in return. It really got me going in a positive direction. Now, after the phone bill, I'm back to considering myself a doormat. More specifically, I'm feeling, again, that I have already done everything that could be expected of me to save my marriage and more, and that it is time to get out with whatever shred of dignity I have left.

Anyway, it is late and I'm rambling. Thanks again for your words.
Solo

Dear Solo,

Ideally, when W thinks about caling OM, you would like her to call you, Right? So one of the unanswered questions was about your listening skills, and training in active listening, communication and counseling skills.

My wife was getting too close to a neighbor, and I asked her to cut back the relationship. She did cut back. I also talked ot the guy, and laughed several times, in a high pitched scream, to give him the idea that I was a little nuts.

Honesty has 2 parts. One is W to be honest with you. The other part is for you to be ready for the truth. It does not sound like you have prepared yourself for the truth. I have taken several parenting courses in which listening skills are taught. What courses are available for you? What options do you have to increase your listening skills? What conseling books do you have? I have books with series of questions to review, so I can carry on extended conversations.

I realy do not have much confidence that my wife is that faithful. But I just try to do my part.

Blessings.

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Solo,

Please read the following article and see if it makes sense in your particular situation.

http://www.troubledwith.com/Web/gro...amp;sssct=Other%20Things%20to%20Consider


Best of luck and my prayers are with you.

Dear Cynmanca,

I read the article you linked. My suggestion was communication skills, for Solo, and the article suggests that apparent communication problems can be an outward manifestation of a deeper problem, which is respect and control issues. The less respect a spouse receives, the more controlling the spouse may become. Then the more controling a spouse becomes, the more trapped the other spouse feels.

The 180 degree Divorce Busters is an approach I have incorporated into my marital problem solving arsenal, which includes changing controlling beahvior. Thank you for the reference on the article. Thank you also for looking further than I had been able to see.
MB Thread on 180 Degree Divorce Busters


Blessings

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler and Cymanca,
Thanks for the feedback. I read the suggested article. Regarding this article and Whaler's comment about communication issues, listening and being prepared for the truth, I think I would divide my answer. The first three months after D Day, when I thought the A was over, I think did an incredible job of listening. Since I found out that the affair continued on after I found and that my W has continued to lie over the last six months I've probably been shutting down a bit. Our conversations have focused less on improving our marriage and more on the A or on the lie that I had just caught her in.

I think that because I went for a while without visiting this site and reading through the forum and the material I lost a little perspective on how WS typically act in and after an affair. Because of that I was continually surprised and hurt when I uncovered each new lie. Coming back to this site I realize that this is very common. Combine that with the fact that it has only been a week since NC has "officially" started - in her mind at least - and I think maybe I had my expectations set to high.

I found the article very interesting. I think there is definitely some applicability there to my situation. My W says she very much want to stay married but is just confused right now. I am definitely holding on tighter than she is however. She said once in MC that she was feeling smothered. I backed off a bit but I thought she was referring more to the fact that I was checking up on her. The article makes me think that maybe I am smothering her in the sense of hanging on too tightly. It is hard to determine when she communicates so little of her feelings to me.
-Solo

A follow-up question…re: the article and the 180 list, do you understand that these behavioral changes on the part of the BS are to be done / are best done when still together with the WS or when separated? In MB lingo, during Plan A or Plan B?

Dear Solo,

I am not an expert by any stretch of imagination but my Plan A/B was done before I came into this site. When I read about the rollercoaster rides that occur in interactions with the BS and WS, I am eternally grateful that I have not had to suffer through them. Since I started my no contact almost 8 weeks ago, my wife went from telling mutual friends that she was" not in love with me" to last weeks's " I always loved him and never wanted the divorce".

Now that may be Fog lifting for only a brief moment but I know the reality of her acts ARE catching up with her. BTW going "dark" is absolutely the WORST experience I have ever had to go through. I am lucky becaise I have a very close friend that I can call day or night when I become desparately needy and insecure and want to break my NC rule. I also have started with Zoloft and that has made a world of difference. It has not masked anything but it has stopped the spontaneous crying jags and panic attacks and given me a much more realistic manner in which to examine our relationship. For the first time I am having some doubts and anger toward my wife and her past and especialy her A.

Hope that helps. My prayers go with you