I am still working on plan A, even though my WW is spending at least 2 hours a day 'meditating' with the OM in an effort to save the pregency.

Is it OK to ask her for all the details of what they are doing? She usually will tell me, but I have to just about beg. I know that I should not beg, but if she does not tell me, I make stuff up that is most likely worse.

Also, should I be trying to talk her out of what she is doing? I am absolutly crushed that she tells me she wants to seperate from me, willing to leave behind our family, but unwilling to seperate from him and the baby that may or may not come to term.

I have told her I do not understand why she is so ready to give up on us, and not him, but she will not respond with any answer.

It has been almost two months.

I am so sick of the 'she is in a fog' line. What about my fog? What about our family's fog? This is so darn hard...... It feels like I am enabling her to continue her addiction.

Any comments?

Yes, if you can handle hearing what WS has to say about OM, I recommend asking, but don't beg. You are asking as a *friend*. You need to be calm and act as if you are merely a good friend who is inquiring after another friend.

But if she doesn't want to talk about it, then, let it go and concentrate on making the time she is spending with you as positive as you can. I know it's hard to not think about what they may be doing, but you need to do it. You need to start thinking positively because your M depends on it. You have to do whatever you can during these tough months to get the A to end.

You are in a battle right now, not an M.

Don't go on and on about why she shouldn't leave, etc. Just tell her calmly and with sincerity that you love her and want her back. Tell her that you recognize that your M was not the best it could be and that you have some changing to do as well. And that is it. Again, don't beg.

Remember Plan A has worked for other people. Your WS loves you, but it is buried beneath a fog. You need to follow the Plan that is outlined here to save your M.

The baby definitely complicates things. What are your feelings about the baby? Could you raise this baby as your own? This is an important question for your WS.

Now what is going on with the baby? Why does WS need to mediate with the OM?

Plan A is about looking within yourself. To see how you might have contributed to the atmosphere that led to WS having an A. You are not to blame, but we all have a part in the condition of our Ms.

And the place we all need to start is to understand why WS may want to leave. That is where you begin and that is how you create the foundation of recovery. You will both need to understand why the other is unhappy. Do you have any clue as to why your WS was unhappy in your M?

Plan A was the toughest thing I have ever done in my life! I had to endure it for 4 1/2 excruciating months, but it does work. If you follow the plan, post here when you're low, and stop the LBs, your M has a chance!

lbc:
Thanks for the help.
The reson for the 'sessions' as we like to call them, is that the pregnence has become high risk. Low hormone levels and such. This Friday, it may be determined to be ended. We shall see.

If my WW and I fall back into the love that brought us together, I could raise that baby as my own. The baby has done nothing wrong. Only its parents. I told her that if we stay together, I would want to adopte and get the OM out of our lives forever. She does not think he would allow that.

I am not sure why my M went to heck. My WW told me she was not happy and had felt no passion for me. I am not sure what I can do about that.

With regards to LB, I think the only thing I do is beg and cry. I try to stop myself, but its tough. Also, I tend to want to talk about her A and how the two of them relate, what they do, what they talk about. I want to try and point out things he does that I do that she gets mad at me for so maybe she will get mad at him.

With your situation, did the WW continue the A during plan A? Where the heck did you find the strength? It has only been 1.5 months, and I am about out of strength.

Thanks again, and please resond, this board does not see much action.

I'm so sorry for your pain. Is the OM a doctor? I'm not sure how meetings with him will help the baby. I'm no doctor, but I try to stay active on pg boards. I haven't heard of a pg terminated due to low hormone levels. Is she at risk for a miscarriage? If the baby is due in March, she just found out she was pg, right?

What is going on with OM? Is there any reason she would want the OM to think she is pg? Maybe he is ready to bolt.

I'm glad to hear that you would be able to raise the baby as your own. That will go a long way in recovering your M. Do you post on the pg/OC board? My guess is that the situation is different with an OC. There will be limited contact with the OP.

Remember, if you rebuild your M, your wife will not want much to do with OM. She is the one telling you that OM will want to stay in contact with the baby. We don't know that to be true, right? And many people say things and then do something different later on. OM may think he wants to stay involved in the baby's life, but he may move on and forget about you guys.

Your mission right now is to help end the A. Do not worry about the baby, yet, or what kind of contact OM will have later on. Things change without any help from us. Only have one focus now. The end of your WS' A!

We think we can't control other peoples' feelings about us, but Dr. Harley believes differently. He says that each of us are responsible for our partner being in love with us. It is my job to ensure that my FWS stays in love with me. Changes things up a bit, huh?

Can you tell me about the beginning of your relationship? You guys were madly in love at one time, because you were meeting each other's needs. You can find that again. It's just that life gets in the way and we stop doing the things that made our partners fall in love with us. You need to figure out what you used to do.

It's perfectly natural to want to know the details of the A. I used to ask FWS all the time during the A. Sometimes he would tell me, sometimes not. But what I noticed is that when we were talking calmly and he could feel that I was asking as a *friend*, he would more likely answer my questions.

Concentrate on stopping the crying and begging. It is time to take a look at yourself. You cannot control what your WS does, but you can control yourself. Plan A is about looking in the mirror. As your WS started to get unhappy in the M, I bet you were not overjoyed at the same time. What was lacking for you? What do you want your life to be like? What kind of M do you want?

Do not try to change your WS' mind about you or the OM. She will not believe you. You can't do it with words, you will have to show her. You will have to show her that you can change and you are willing to do it for your M.

Yes, the A was going on during my Plan A. That is what Plan A is for. If the A has ended, then you are in recovery. Plan A is to help end the A.

Where did I find the strength? Wherever I could! At first, it was from the MB principles. I put my faith in something that had worked for others. Also, after d-day, I immediately found an MC and signed us up for Retrouvaille. When my strength faltered, I posted on MB. The Plan A/B forum is very quiet nowadays, so maybe you can start posting on GQII. You will get alot more feedback and encouragement.

But you will be surprised. You only need enough strength to not LB the next time you see your WS. Don't see it in terms of not LB'ing for x number of months -- you won't be able to do it. Just concentrate on this afternoon or this evening. DON'T LB!

And then something miraculous happens. WS' guard comes down a little bit and you can communicate again if only for a little while. And because she can be sweet for 5 minutes, you will be able to meet an EN for her. This is the beginning of planting the seeds for recovery. You may have to wait awhile to see the positive results of your efforts, but they will come. If you try -- for just tonight.

I'm not saying it's easy. But this has worked for other people and it worked for me. You will not believe that people can change and you can create an even better M than you had before, but I've seen it with my own eyes.

Hang on -- it's a monster of a rollercoaster! ((hugs))

ibc

Great Post!

CanThisHelp....read ibc's last post about 10 times until you fully understand it. If you have questions about Plan A read them starting at the home page on the MB site.

The LoveBuster thing is critical, as is the begging and "sad sam" routine. Both will drive your WW away from you, not lure her back.

Purchase SAA and read it, and go to a fabulous Plan A, coming here with questions. It is critical that you do this, and do it well.

Good luck

SD

ibc, thanks a bunch for the advice. I posted on the GQII thread, and in case you did not notice, I may have mentioned that I felt good. Thanks again.

I needed to be reminded that life is nothing more than simple steps taken in a row. I was (and still to some degree) dwelling on the enormity of the task and it was weighting me down. I never realized how powerfull the saying 'one day at a time' was. It is hard for me, but it does help.

My W and I meet less than 1 month after she was realesed from a psych ward. She had just been left by her fiancee and was commited on the premise that she was suicidal. About 6 weeks after that, we all went on vacation with 6 other people. She jumped my bones and then I fell in love with her. The start was purley physical, but it grew from that.

I think I can stop the crying and begging. Only begged once during the last week or so and I have not cryed in front of her for a bit. But she can tell when I have been crying.

She has told me she wants to move out and at our MC this Saturday, I am going to bring it up and say that I think it would be good too. I made the mistake of telling her parents I was going to do this and asked them to not allow her to move in. I called them back and told them to not listen to me, and do what there heart told the was the right thing to do- I felt horible for asking a mother to abandon her daughter (even if she is foggy).

I looked into the Retrouvaille thing. I got the impression that is is religious based. We were not married in a church, I was a eucharistic minister in a past life and have since lost faith, my WW has never had any faith, so can you tell me how that would affect us attending?

I get the impression that the OM may be screwing up the A all on his own. Just little things my WW tells me and things she tells my 'source'. I want him to honor his statement that he wants to marry her and see if he really does. Of course, she could (and probably is) be still lying.

Its a risk, but I think I know my WW and she always sees greener grass on the other side. Always. Lets see how good he mows his lawn.

Thanks for the advice, and did you have a response?

I will try to look for your post on GQII tomorrow, but in the meantime, Plan B is the last resort. You really need to do an excellent Plan A before going to Plan B. But I don't blame you if you are at the end of your rope. However, do you think you can do an excellent Plan A until WS leaves?

Hmmm...it seems you don't believe WS was suicidal when she went into the hospital. Do you feel she lies often?

The Catholic Church does put on the Retrouvaille workshops, but you don't have to be religious to attend them. I'm technically an atheist and FWS leans towards Buddhism/Native American teachings.

It's okay that you cry, actually. It just shows how much you hurt. But I think human nature is such that if you do too often, we start to ignore it. You might take a look at the divorce busters/180 degree list. This helps take the focus off the A and start paying attention to yourself.

See, the A is already going downhill, with no help from you! Now imagine if you were doing a top-notch Plan A. You could be in recovery soon!

I would advise that you not ask your WS to leave. The best shot you have for saving your M is if WS lives with you. This is the only way she's going to believe that you are capable of changing.

Let me know how your MC session went.

Well, I posted how the weekend went on the GQ II and the Preg board, but in a nutshell, she told me she would end the A.

My question is now about plan A. Since we are supposed to treat the WS like they have an addiction, doesn't plan A enable that addiciton?

I mean, my WW was spending 3 hours/day with the OM (just and EA, no more PA, just ask her). And I allowed it. That sounds exactly like the role of an enabler.

I am going to try harder now then I have ever tried in my life to get this to work out. But I wonder if I would have told her right from the start that she had to leave if she kept seeing him, she would have stopped sooner. Oh well, I think the knee-jerk reaction would have been bad, and I am sure I would have delivered it much worse. Sooooo, if it ends well, all is well.

Thanks for the info on Retrouvaille. We may look into it.

I'm sorry I haven't had time to check out your other posts. My daughter's 2nd birthday was on Saturday and I'm just recovering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, your WS actually gave you good news! She is considering ending the A. My FWS wasn't sure he wanted to be married on d-day.

It does seem that Plan A enables the addiction and the BS is just a doormat, but you are actually laying the groundwork for recovery. Plan A is not just about letting the WS do whatever she/he wants. It's about changing things about you. Unfortunately, we can't control what other people do. You can only work on yourself. Plan A moves the focus to you because a BS will go crazy during the A. You already know this. It's time to think about what you want. Who are you? What do you want to change?

Oh yeah, my FWS was spending 2 days a week with OW and I even packed up my baby's stuff so he could take her to grandma's. But you keep letting WS know that you love her, that you want your M to work, that you know things need to change, and you will NOT tolerate a third person in your M.

This is your chance to Plan A like crazy! Your job is not to let your emotions rule you. You cannot go by your instincts during Plan A. Your mind will resist everything you need to do, but your only focus is to get the A to end!

Well, MB principles specifically say to not throw out the WS. In order for Plan A to work, WS needs to be living with you. Most people throw out the WS. Maybe that's why we have a 50% divorce rate.

On D-day I told WW two things have to happen, one the A must end, two, she must quit her job. She did neither.

Up until Yesterday, she was still seeing him. I do not think she will quit her job, but I think he is. I hope so.

I am still struggling with the plan A concept. I realize that kicking someone out is hurtfull and selfish. I just think it is a great tool for showing someone that if they have betrayed a mariage, there will be re-procussions. Sudden, real, and I let my WW know, temporary. As long as there is an A.

Don't get me wrong, I know that knee-jerk reactions are rarely the best, but I have a hard time with enabling.

BTW, my WW has told ME in very clear terms she thinks our M is over and is doing this just so she does not have to leave. I do not believe her completely. She has in the past told me she was taking the kids to Mexico, she was trashing the house, she was going to move..., so when she rants, I try hard to smile and nod and listen. Sometimes I yell back. Usually that ends poorly.

Well, I hope your DD b-Day was a hit. My kids loved theres. There 3rd is 8/9/04.

Good luck and keep it up.

In a way, I think the WS considers the M over or is willing to take the risks of the A (i.e. getting kicked out of their house). They are just not thinking rationally at this time. All they know is that they are hurting in the M and the OP makes them feel better.

Throwing WS out of the house probably makes them feel justified for having the A and gives the OP plenty of time to make deposits in WS' love bank. Doing the unexpected (not throwing them out) may make the WS think twice about the BS' love. Alot of times, the WS doesn't think the BS would even care about what they are doing.

Oh, I was very angry during the last month of the A. I was asking FWS to leave, too. But the advice I kept getting is that Plan B should be the last resort and it only works if you did a good Plan A. You have to show the WS the best side of you. We all know it's easy to show the bad side. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What is WS doing so that she doesn't have to leave? Saying she will end the A? Why doesn't she want to leave?

Is your WS on medication? Is she under a doctor's care?

Ibc,
Thanks for the questions. I know that I was weak to do what I did, but I think it got her thinking.

I understand the concept of plan A, I just could not do it while the A was going on. I tried for 1.5 months and felt like I was dead. I lost 15 lbs and was averaging 3-6 hours sleep a night. Some people can handle it, I could not.

I will not be suprised if they talk. I know they work together, for at least another 2 weeks. That may set the clock back. I needed to know that she knows she cannot just do whatever it wants. I think she thinks I am weak. In one regard, she is correct, I could not turn the other cheek for very long.

Our MC told us today that he thinks with in 10 sessions (weeks) +/- 2 sessions we should know if we are to stay married or not. I just hope she tries. We are going to try to talk tonight, I hope.

The only reason she gives me for not wanting to leave is basically money. She is not sure how she would live. Especially with the kids. I think that is a lie, because even the OM told her he would help her live. She knows I would be required by law to contribute to her finacially.

She is not on any meds because she is P with an OC. Due in March.

I think some people will realize that they are addicted and stop it on there own, which is how plan A is supposed to work. I am not qualified to say this, but I do not think my WW would have ever done that.

I will keep you posted.

Would you consider finding another MC? He doesn't sound very pro-marriage. Also, what does WS think about your MC? I would recommend you find a woman MC, because your WS is the reluctant party. She may listen to a woman more.

My FWS couldn't bear to leave our home, either. OW still lived at home, so we would have had to pay for two households. We didn't have the money. FWS was NOT looking forward to going back to a tiny apartment in a bad part of town.

But you see, that is your opportunity! She is still living with you. Use this time and do a good Plan A!

No, Plan A doesn't work by the WS suddenly realizing they should end the A. It works because the BS is giving the WS something more attractive than the OP.

Have you seen the Plan A thread in GQII? Check it out and get some ideas. This has worked for me and for others. You say you can't do it. Do you think those of us that have done Plan A are special or something? That we can take extraordinary amounts of pain and not fall apart on the inside? No. We are not different. We are the same, you and I. You have the power within you to lay the foundation for your recovery.

Plan A was the hardest thing I've ever done. But I wanted to try to save my M. I wanted to rebuild it into something *I* wanted. Do you want to save your M? I know this is a tough question, but everyone has to decide for themselves.

Let me repeat: Plan A is for ending the A. You do Plan A *while* the A is going on. If the A has ended, you don't need Plan A anymore.

Tell me. What is the difference between now and when you were doing Plan A? Your WS is still in the A. Why aren't you losing weight or losing sleep? Because you feel you are in control? Because you are taking control?

You will not believe the control you have with Plan A. I felt like I knew the script of the A and WS/OW had no clue whatsoever. I knew that what WS was going to say and do and I was secure in that everything was going according to Plan A.

Do you have a need to be right or not to be disrespected? I can see how Plan A will interfere with that. Do you think I like to disrespected? Hell no. But Plan A requires that you step back. Your immediate needs have to take a back seat until your WS returns to the M.

I know that is hard. That's why you have to take care of yourself during this time. That's why you have to take time out and find your center.

You *think* she thinks you are weak. Sorry, but she is not thinking about you right now. I thought FWS was just leading me on during the A, but the WS' really don't know which end is up during this time.

You have to provide the safe refuge. You have to be the nurturing one. I know your mind cannot believe this. "What? She is the one that cheated! Why do I have to be the nice one?" Because you are married. Because you love her. And because you want to rebuild an even better M than before.

You will learn, even through recovery, that one of you will have to step back and bring both of you back to center. You will have ups and downs even after the A ends. You will have alot more opportunites to 'give in' when you are the one that is 'right'. And that is what being married is. Start being married to your wife. Start right now.

lbc (is it ibc?) thanks for the kind words. And yes, I think that anyone that does a good solid plan A for 6 months while the WW is having and A is someone VERY special. VERY SPECIAL INDEED. Yes you are different. I have no basis in fact for that thought, but if you think most people could do a good plan A, I would not agree with you.

I am going to re-read some of the plan A thread and get back to you. Is it too late because of my demands?

Thanks for keeping in touch and I will write more in the AM on Thursday.

canthishelp - Please join the discussion on my thread in general questions, called Betrayed husbands.