My W of 4+ yrs (no kids) has been sleeping on the other side of the house for 4 months. I only realized we were having serious problems 6 months ago. She internalizes a lot, and I had not made it easy to resolve conflicts w/o taking things personally in the past.

We've been in therapy (joint and indiv. for 4 months). We've only had 4 joint sessions and indiv. session every other week during that time b/c the therapist is really busy. She knows us well by now, so I don't want to switch counselors. Our main issues have to do with my 32 yr. old W wanting independence since she was not happy with our M. She has been unhappy with my immature behavior (got married to early when I was 24), but she never told me what was upsetting her.

The last 6 months, I have tried everything on this site, HisN/HerN, and Lovebusters, that I could do solo. I have not been perfect, and have done things that are LoveBusters. Early, we had some nasty (verbal) arguments. Repeatedly, I have expressed a desire to fix things. My counselor says I have put almost too much energy into things, so there is no pressure on her to work.

She started going out with her friends every weekend (always home before 3-4AM). She stopped wearing her ring in May. I caught her calling a guy that she met while out (she said it never got physical and they were only flirting). Of course, I got upset, which is a major LB, and I am waiting for this month's bill to see if she is still calling him. She says our emotional bond is broken, and as sad as it is, she doesn't know how to fix it. She thinks a trial seperation is a good idea.

I don't know if the 6 months of "trying" were plan A. I tried to be supportive and meet her needs, but I certainly slipped with anger a few times. I told her that if she were to stay here, she'd have to stop calling the guy and continue counseling. She agreed, but says the counseling (the 1-2 sessions/month) aren't working and seeing each other daily keeps making it worse. We are living as friends/roommates which is painful, and I still don't trust her to be telling the truth.

If she moves out for a trial separation, is that plan B (especially if there is no letter)? I gave her time to look for an apt., and I am not sure if that was a mistake. Even while living here, contact goes between friendly and cold. We often pursue seperate activities so we don't see each other, but that is just as painful since we speak on the phone throughout the day. With the hurricanes in FL, we spent days together and are still working as a team on the house and pets (a good thing). But I can't distinguish whether that's friendship or progress.

Is dragging this out going to make it worse, or is it likely to aggrevate the situation by leaving/kicking her out? I have no proof that she is still calling the other guy, or how far it went? Is a plan A or a plan B appropriate at this point?

Yes, you should be in Plan A at this time.

Of course, I got upset, which is a major LB
No, getting upset is not a LB at all. How you handle it may be a LB though.

and I am waiting for this month's bill to see if she is still calling him.
Any reason she would stop?

She thinks a trial seperation is a good idea.
So she can see this guy with no interference from you.

If she moves out for a trial separation, is that plan B (especially if there is no letter)?
No. That is simply her moving out.
Plan B is something you (the bs- betrayed spouse) does, not the ws-wayward spouse.
There is no Plan B without a Plan B letter.

Is dragging this out going to make it worse,
Dragging what out?

Is a plan A or a plan B appropriate at this point?
Plan A is appropriate at this time.

Have you read “Surviving An Affair”?
Also, read the links below.

Definite PlanA. Seems like she has fallen out of love and is looking elsewhere to have her needs met. Are you guys spending 15 hrs a week doing things together? Do you go out and have fun?

Plan B is for AFTER a fantastic PlanA , when you have been meeting your spouses needs and they still wont give up the affair. Plan B is so your spouse misses all the things that you did to meet their needs and realises that the OP is not "all that"! At the moemtn it seems , from what you have written, that you are not spending sufficient time together to meet those needs. Think back to when you were dating, what kinds of things did you like doing together? Ask your wife what she would enjoy doing with you.

Could it be time for a few weekends away together doing fun things? You havent kids so really have the opportunity of spending quality time together.

I also have a reluctant spouse and know it is not easy tomove forward on your own. I can recommend a book called "How one of you can bring the two of you together", by Susan Page. It is very much on MB lines and teaches you specific concepts about anger management (which you seem to need) and how not to LB when you really want to !!!! It gives specific assignments to help you move yourself forward in your marriage.

It seems that you have possibly been relying too much on counselling. Counselling will not fix your marriage. It will only help you to sort out and understand your issues. It is just part of the process. You have some hard work ahead. PlanA your butt off and post here regularly where we can support you through your good times and bad.

Good luck!

Much praise and thanks to both of you! I need all the guidance I can get.

Chris -CA123, My initial response to finding out about the phone calls were to ask her to leave the house. Within a few hours, I backed down from that. It still hurts, and I still get angry, but I try not to be the source of her unhappiness. At that point, I said if she wants to stay, she has to stop calling him, which she agreed to do. However, my concern is that the independent behavior persists. She is around me when she HAS to be, not because she wants to be.

Debbra, you also hit the nail on the head. The problem is that she refuses to verbalize what her needs are. I've tried introducing her to Dr. Harley's books, but she won't come out and say, "I need affection, more/less sex, more time together, etc." We smothered each other so much in our relationship with TOO MUCH time doing things without other people. She barely acknowledges that she has needs, I have to guess what they are, and most times she does not want me to meet them. Like it says somewhere in LB, I don't get credit when I guess right.

I do need to get the SA book. I also have heard of the Page book, but wasn't sure if it was a gimmick. So if I listen to what W says, Plan A seems to be backing off or letting her go...where she may end up seeking to have her subconcious needs met outside our marriage. It already happened once. She's so discouraged that time together does not sound attractive to her. I wish Dr. Harley had a chapter on smothering each other.

Thank you both.

Snoopy! I really know what u mean by smothering each otehr. when my husband found out about my affair he began to smother me. It was cards and presents and cuddles and all the things hed held back on for years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I hated it. I needed time and space and really just wanted to concentrate on being friends before moving any further. Basically he had no concept of what to do in PlanA and he LBed bigtime so often that i left him anyway, despite my affair being over. I just didnt enjoy being around him anymore.

When i came back to him after being separated he accused me of teh same thing...smothering ! Your first step with your wife needs to be reestablishing friendship and having good times together. You dont need to be all lovely dovey and holding her hand. How about a trip to a theme park? Something where u can both really let your hair down and be silly! remember that the basic concept of MB is that we deposit love units when we do things we enjoy together. Anythign that you can do together that would be fun, uplifting or positive in any way will work.

My husband also refuses to fill in the EN questionnaire. Fortunately we have been married long enough for me to take a good stab at what his main ENs are. I asked him today , after many months, to do teh questionnaire but he wont. Nonetheless i do my best and I am making progress.

whether or not your wife is having an A, the basic principles of Plan A, which is being the best you can be for her and attempting to meet her needs as best you can without LB will work in your situation.

My husband also seemed to be around me because he HAD to be. I remember once, very early after returning, to tell me what his ENs were and he shouted "space, space, space!" Nonetheless I have worked hard on making sure that we get those 15 hrs a week and do some fun things together as well as just taking a long walk in the evening for exercise. Now he enjoys my company very much. he still needs space and time to learn to trust me again. I dont know how much space is "too much" for your wife but i do know that you need those 15 quality hrs a week alone together. Use that as a yard stick. Is there anotehr couple who u could go out with from time to time? Often your personality can glow better in company <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

keep posting:)

You may find reading posts from Faithinme and Bob Pure on General Questions II useful. they have both done, and are doing, an outstanding PlanA. They are truly an inspiration.

Keep trying!

Debra xx

Thanks Debbra,

I will check out those other posts. Honestly, after 6 months of trying, and 4 good/bad years where the bad was not all my fault, I am exhausted. I think I spent most of my energy in a misguided and undirected Plan A. I went out and bought Surv the A, and the Susan Page book today. I will try to cram them in the next few days, but every weekend my wife goes out (each night of the week). Major LB.
Many times I think I am too good for this treatment, but I recall the damage that I have contributed. I just hope, at this point, I still have the strength for a solid Plan A. The 15 hrs that we get are often very vanilla (watching TV, walking dogs, drinking coffee). At 32, she is enjoying the club/bar scene that we used to enjoy together. I can't get her to share that with me after 6 months. I get really resentful when she goes out, even if I compensate by going out as well. It takes most of the night for me to chill and forget her, and I start thinking that I would just rather get in the car and leave the pain behind me.

Your words provide strength and peace. Oddly, you seem to be one of the few that reconnected after seperating. I fear seperation will lead to disconnection, even though we're already disconnected. Do you know what it was about the seperation that made you return?

BTW, Debbra, looking at your tagline, you have had one heck of an experience. Kudos for being a champ.

As a newbie, is there a guide or reference to all these abbreviations? Some are obvious, but others are not.

It's 1:30am. I am obsessing about my marriage on the internet and my wife is in her separate bedroom after going out. Even with my mistakes, it just ain't fair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Snoopwell - Check out the first tread in the Just Found Out forum. It lists all of the abbreviations.

SnoopWell...we were separated for 15 months. During that time we did spend some time together. I was studying teaching In England. We spent the main holidays together. Right from the beginning ,when my main online affair started, my husband promised me that he would always be there for me should I want to return. I think I always had that in the back of my mind. One day i called home and my daughter told me that my husband was out "with some woman". I remember feeling violently sick. I was afraid. I think i suddenly realised that i could lose him. Apart from that he was constantly praying for my return and i felt the power of those prayers. Every time i went to church my conscience would [censored] me hard. In the end I decided to do the right thing. Dont underestimate the power of prayer.The Lord is not always quick to answer but he surely does. This also shows the value of a good PlanB but in its proper place. I believe you have a lot of work that you can do before going onto that.

Another thing u shouldnt underestimate is those vanilla times. Just remember that these are probably meeting some of your wife's needs: For example , conversation. You really need to add some champagne flavour to vary from teh vanilla <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You have shared interests, like your pets. If your wife was to leave she would surely miss this kind of companionship, in the long run.

In the end my husband is my best friend, he always was, and amongst the spice of other relationships, I missed this.

I suspect your wife is bored. Life is too routine and she is trying to add excitement. You need to set up some surprise dates or a surprise weeked away together. Things to relieve the monotony of everyday life.

Does your wife go out EVERY night, or just on weekends? Does she know that you would liek to join her? When was the last time you took her out to dinner and for dancing afterwards? Do you ever go bowling or out to play pool? There are so many possibilities....

I know that you probably feel very alone in this. Dont! We are all going through, or have been through, similar experiences. we understand your pain and your frustrations. Posting here on Marriage Builders is really therapeutic. It gives you an outlet to express your anger , frustration and fears, and access to a wealth of wisdom (and empathy!) from others. Please keep posting !

Debraxx

Thanks again, Deb.

Yes, my W does know how much I want to spend time together, but she refuses. She does thing apart and outside of the home whenever she has the energy. She said she didn't like going out all the time, but she hates it b/c I am home all the time (I work from home 3 days/wk.) I was working on find a new job and getting out more, but I'm new in a small town and I'm a minority, so it's hard.

I had been trying Plan A, but her resistance is strong. She says shes afraid if she's nice or indulges me that she will be getting my hopes up. She admits that she is my best friend, and doesn't want me out of her life. She is just not sure the she wants a M, kids, or me as a H. She's not sure what she wants (her own words).

I fear separating would be a de facto Plan B, as she says she needs space and time. I don't want to hang out waiting not getting any of my needs met, yet I don't want to get them met outside of my M. I am fearful since she already had a series of inapprop. cell phone conversations with a man, that she'd easily meet someone again (despite her claims to the contrary). I may have painted myself into corner by giving a verbal plan B letter.

I just wanted to say thanks again, and I am moving over to this thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=022346

I have more background and recent events over there.