Hi CoolGuy, sorry haven't come back to you in a while, couldn't think what to say...

Thank Goodness for Starfish.

I guess the bottom line must be

1. Identifying your own personal limits & boundaries.

2. Agreeing a mutually acceptable & workable plan, to restore Trust, Intimacy & Confidence.

Coolguy, my own history hit me in the face when I thought more about distance & being faithful. It is really down to the individuals characters. During our 20 year marriage, it was the away time that created the opportunities, it was the calibre of the individuals involved - ALARM BELLS - for distance!!!!

You are young, you have no children, you both seem to be financially sufficient, independent of each other.

Starfish has pointed out some great leads to you.

I will ask you to question yourself.

Why do you want to stay married to this particular girl?

Love? Is it reciprocated in a caring protective way?

Is your sense of hurt & betrayal being comforted?

Is there an ownership for the adultery without blaming you?

Is there remorse for the pain caused to you or is it for the damage done to herself?

If you met her freshly today on the street, and knew her history & baggage would you even consider starting a relationship with her?

Tough soul searching questions, I hope I don't bring you more sadness. I wish for you to be strong & know how much you can take and give for the sake of remaining married to this girl.

Best wishes to you.
Ktulu.

KTulu, thanks again for continuing to post.

I question myself every day, and the results are not always comforting. I am fairly confident of two things:

If you met her freshly today on the street, and knew her history & baggage would you even consider starting a relationship with her?

Probably not.

However, I also know that my thinking right now cannot be 100% objective. Based on research, approximately 70 percent of people divorcing because of an affair later regret the decision. I don't want to be one of them.

Disclaimer: unless I build up my own self-esteem & confidence – not remotely relative to competence, my own marriage my flounder. I’m still learning & may be way out of my debt offering any advice. So please take what I say with a very large grain of salt, at this moment in my life I may only be projecting, forgive me if I do, and as you have shown, digest only what applies to you. Thanks.

Hi 1Coolguy,

I've read your other threads & responses.

You want to stay married. Then be prepared.

My gut instinct is show your wife the Attractive Package of Being Married to You
That is being the nice guy, negotiating as per no judgemental messages, controlling, moralistic or demanding statements - these only produce fight or flight reactions. Even giving advice to your wife can be taken as criticism if it is given without being asked for by her.

I understand you are trying to protect yourself against rejection but it seems to be at the expense of your wife’s self worth. (I can hear you think yes but she will travel at the expense of me). Attempts to gain some security by dominating undermines her self-esteem, creates communication distance between you & does nothing for your own self-development.

Go with open communication - you may have it already sorted, it is the complete opposite of protective communication it needs little elaboration: Open Communication is Non-Judgemental, Permissive (allows the other person freedom to see & do things his or her own way), Spontaneous, Empathic (attempts to see & feel what the other person is experiencing), Equal (respects & listens to the other person's opinions & ways of doing things), Provisional (accepts that there may be an alternative answer or way).

Please re-read the post to you in negotiating. It's about being a loving supportive, husband, who wants the best for his wife.

If she truly wants to go Support Your Wife in Her Own Career Decisions - reread the advice offered on how to actually stay in touch over distance, and the very wise caution from one who said it may be unrealistic to expect so much travel so frequently. I loved the idea of planning for success, think, talk, discuss, plan together.

I read this as your trust rebuilding/seperation/recovery plan
“No legal separation, no divorce. Sworn fidelity. Two weekends per month, holidays and vacations to be spent with me. East Coast assignment to be limited to 12 months max. I have the right to "veto" it at any point past 3 months, if I can't deal with separation. She agrees to continued email and phone monitoring as anti-infidelity measures, although this does become somewhat meaningless if she's not here. 24/7 access by mobile phone. Accountability to my friends (a married couple) living in the area.”


Conflict can be a creative force within a relationship when it is seen as a signal for change both within the relationship and within the individual partners.

She may come back to you.

I understand your fears, your wife has many too.

I do hope with your time together now you are living rather than existing. Try to have FUN together from now untill her departure. Create memories of good/great times with you. Give her reasons for her to feel happy to be with you – help her feel good about herself. Become (yes that means change) the man that she would love to return to, wants to spend all her spare time with - those are the guys that make a woman feel good about herself - for who she is – it is not what she does - develop the art of affirmation & praise on an area that is impotant to her.

Guess I've been reading a lot lately.

1Coolguy, take care of yourself, you are lovable, hear your wife's messages as being about her & not about you.

Hear what you say as being about you & not about your wife.

Re-read Starfish & Just Learning.


Yikes 1 coolguy WAKE UP, it is way past my own bedtime – I’m not going to delete all I’ve written here to you tonight.

ALARMS, SIRENS, RED FLAGS, SMACK ON THE HEAD, still trawling through your posts & read this
original posted by 1Coolguy
“Re value system, of course we are different. I would never cheat on her. In her original concept most marriages included infidelity, so her summer fling was no big deal. Now she says she truly understands she loves me and me alone, and will stay faithful. The trauma of being found out makes any affair not worth it, in her current opinion. She also knows that a second affair means automatic divorce, and she doesn't want a divorce.”

Did I read somewhere else without You her life would become a series of ONS !!!???

Is THIS ACCURATE OF YOUR WIFE’S OPINION? The trauma of BEING FOUND OUT not the hurt inflicted, to self, to you????? my mind boggles.Now be calm dear Husband I love you under this conditions and BEING FOUND OUT is the only preventative, protection she admits to herself and wants to be out of sight, out of contact for the next 12 months.

Sorry 1Coolguy, my understanding has just gone cold, like the coffee.

I wish you comfort on your healing journey.

BryanP & TooMuchCoffeeMan are guys who understand.

KTulu, thanks so much for continuing the dialogue. I hope I am not becoming too much of a drain on your personal time.

I don't think there's too much contradiction between these two excerpts from my posts:

Very simply, my wife had an affair because it was OK in her value system, she felt like doing it, and never thought I'd find out. Now she says she wants to change because she knows she loves me, the affair was not worth anything because the guy thought of her as a cheap whore, and that she doesn't have a future without me. She tells me that, should our marriage fail, she will never have a family, and her love life will be reduced to a string of one-night stands. For whatever reason, she doesn't want this outcome.

and

“Re value system, of course we are different. I would never cheat on her. In her original concept most marriages included infidelity, so her summer fling was no big deal. Now she says she truly understands she loves me and me alone, and will stay faithful. The trauma of being found out makes any affair not worth it, in her current opinion. She also knows that a second affair means automatic divorce, and she doesn't want a divorce.”

In my opinion, the "trauma of being found out" in this particular case includes everything that came about -- she had no idea the impact would be this severe. As I wrote, affairs were no big deal in her usual environment, now she says she's re-evaluating everything.

The way I see it, she's not rotten to the core, and instinctively clings to me as some sort of a rock of principles she wants to have in her life. She comes from a failed family, but now sees my parents, still in love with each other after 35 years of marriage, and she probably wants to have the same kind of family. She knows she doesn't have the family programming to accomplish this, thus this reliance on me.

What I am trying to understand is whether I have a reasonable chance of improving the situation (Heaven knows, I am trying) and whether I need to be in it altogether. Her infidelity gives me a clean way out...but I do not know if ending the marriage is the right decision. I know my thinking isn't as clear and objective as usual, thus the willingness to invite outside opinion.

Thanks again for empathy and advice.

Good Morning, I'm working today for a change <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No you are not draining me personally, I found myself gobsmacked by the justifications/values your wife seemed to believe in (past tense fog talk could have been another analogy) - now I read she is re-evaluating and wants to change - That's Great.

TIME: Harley says "Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs." Policy of UNdivided Attention

DEPENDENCY: How the Co-dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages Interesting Read....

Personal feelings - to be lovable, first one must be totally UN-dependent on anyone.

Reasonable Chance: Everything to do with forming, committing & growing a relationship involves risk and being vunerable to being hurt. Another worthwhile read is Why Women Leave Men

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Quote from Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy? by Jennifer H. Chalmers, Ph.D.

Do you know how to create the feeling of love in your marriage? If you don't, I urge you to read all of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, especially his "Four Rules for a Successful Marriage."

Don't let anyone tell you that the feeling of love is unobtainable or unsustainable. It can be created even after years of neglect. It is an achievable goal. And I speak for thousands!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your Optimisim is Catching Thank You <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stay the good person you are, be true to yourself.

And when you love, love wholeheartedly.

Fresh Coffee a calling,
Take Care of You,
Ktulu out.

cool guy,

Now I think I understand your reasons for not wanting to be too flexible. It is a particular challenge when the As are designed around "opportunity" and "lack of moral code". My H also had As this way....and so separations became something that needed to be avoided because he didn't have the moral fortitude at that time to resist temptation. I was also his "rock" and it's taken a great deal of maturity and pain to get to a place where I feel he can be trusted again. You aren't there yet. So....I think you're justified in thinking that a separation at this time is ill advised. You still can't force her to stay...but you can respectfully request that she does and give her the logical and caring reasons for that. Brainstorm some ways that she can advance her career WITHOUT a separation.

sending hope and prayers your way!

I am smiling as I write this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...should I?

So I decided to show my beloved, as KTulu wrote, "the Attractive Package of Being Married to Me". Today is an anniversary of our romantic meeting overseas, so I reckoned I'd go for a romantic getaway. Meet some ENs, dissolve some LBs, relax, have fun, etc.

Asked my wife whether she was working today, received a quite intrigued "no, what are you up to?" response, went into the planning mode. Booked a bed & breakfast one-night package at a 5-star resort, complete with an oversize Jacuzzi, dazzling mountain/city lights view, big-screen TV, room service to die for, etc. Made reservations for dinner at a snobby restaurant there, invited my wife to join me for a sunset dinner (kept everything else hush-hush in order to surprise her). Everything else in the package was perfect: a thoughtful gift, a romantic card, showered at work, nice suit, the works! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Lights, camera, action! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I show up at the resort restaurant, my wife is already there, waiting for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> (this happens once in a century). I look handsome, and she seems distraught. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She goes to the restroom, and I stuff the gift and the card into her handbag. She comes back, we sit down, order some food. She opens the handbag, finds the gift, reads the card, smiles. I toast our marriage and start talking about my great getaway TONIGHT idea. She stops me right there by explaining that her TV network called in the morning and asked for a last-minute US election coverage story, and, even though she told them she'd take the day off, she just couldn't say no. So, she'd have dinner with me and then go to work in order to get a story out by 1 am (in time for am broadcast in her home country). "Thanks, darling, I'll be back very late and see you in the morning."

I sit there absolutely dumbfounded. Then I calmly try to explain the great significance of this particular day in our history and why I really wanted to spend the evening with her. In fact, I pissed off my very new boss by walking out of an executive meeting in order to get to my dinner date on time. She gets very defensive and says, "look, I am not a big shot at work, like you are, and people like me cannot afford to say no to high-profile assignments like this one".

When confronted with unpleasantries, I don't get angry, I get pensive. My wife calls this my "mafia don look". So, having detected the look, she tells me she is now upset that I am upset, so it's time to leave. She borrows my notebook computer and drives off to finish her story. I go home after finding out the resort would not return a penny for the honeymoon suite I rented. Congratulations, I just spent about a grand for a tasty small meal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I get home to see she left it an absolute pig sty when she rushed off in the morning -- dirty dishes and her clothes everywhere! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Further, I figure we'll owe about $20 in late fees because she didn't return Blockbuster DVDs (she promised me she would). For whatever reason, this pisses me off more than the honeymoon suite $$ hit. I wonder why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Then I sit down and start laughing.

Are you having fun reading this?

Way to go Mr Coolguy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

So you had your dinner but ya didn't get lucky <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Aren't you glad you did it anyway.

Timing is everything I guess, we a million miles removed from America, even checked in to see how that election was going.

Given that the planned night was an impromptu surprise, your wife must have felt a little dissappointed at not being able to participate & pretty excited at responsibility of story coverage.

This could become a pattern with the career choice, News is unpredictable & to your wife will have to go at the drop of a hat.

Suggesting, 'Doggy Bag' good food, & follow her.

P1ssed of at non return of video - simply put it was something she said she'd do & didn't - ouch!

I admire your maturity, in recognising the calm toughtful approach in tense matters (wish I could do that more often), anyhow your wife interprets that as your Don face - hmmmm - does she feel there is no point in speaking with you while you are in that state, are you open to hearing her feelings & opinions, or wondering about the injustice of it all, or a win/win solution?

You know, when you do something to help your spouse feel happy, there aren't supposed to be any conditions, it is an attempt to meet their needs.

Consistency is essential to some spouses.

Take it easy, glad you can see bright sides, keep shining, made have to start wearing shades soon:p

Edited to add clean up your home yourself,- part of being the best - don't mention it to her, just do it.

Cheers K

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Ktulu ]</small>

1Coolguy , the following is advice to a guy to bring his wife back emotionally to him

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Family Matters:-

All she can see right now is doom and gloom. The best thing we can do is be as upbeat as possible and help our WS's realize life can still be happy after this A. Show your W that you can get pass this A, not with words but with actions. No big ostentatious showings of affection either, just little things. Be charming. Don't be Mr. Sweep her off her feet, she feels to guilty for you to lavish her with love right now. Smile alot and be thoughtful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please check out this awesome thread - it is a step by step guide on how to give to your wife
Plan A tips and musings...get grounded

It's time for me to go focus on my own family.

Keep your strength up emotionally & physically.

KTulu, star*fish, thanks for advice.

Lately, things have gone quiet. For some reason, my wife's company isn't pushing the job offer anymore. A few weeks ago it was, "we need you yesterday", now she can't get a hold of her contact. Interesting...

Emotionally, I feel very tired and strangely reconciled to the idea of her leaving, if she so wants. I am OK with the idea of divorcing her, with the idea of her going to the East Coast, and with the idea of her staying with me. I can't bring myself to feel passionate about seeing my point of view prevail. Is this kind of "post-DD fatigue" typical?

My wife told me something interesting a few days ago. Apparently, she had a series of dreams about me having sex with other women. Even though it was just a dream, she felt very hurt and jealous, and even asked me to not go on a real business trip! I wonder whether some type of "right" thinking is taking place in her head.

Secondly, she said she felt very hurt by my consistent refusal to engage in intercourse without a condom. I explained to her I didn't want to take any risks with pregnancy at this point and couldn't trust her emphatic claims that all of her PA sex was safe. She stated she couldn't really see our relationship surviving unless I started to trust her again. In response, I sent her a weblink on getting tested for STDs, and that had an unfortunate effect of setting off a big argument. Oh well, better safe than sorry. I had the OM test himself and send me a copy of his (negative) test report, but those can be faked, I assume.

Finally, another interesting observation. My wife stated that, since I've been treating her with the same mix of impeccable politeness, tenderness and love post-DD as I did before, she couldn't see that I was deeply hurt inside. Basically, she felt I dealt with the infidelity issue "once and for all", and "moved on". She says she now can't understand why I would be bringing it up, even if she starts the conversation that somehow relates to it (e.g., safe sex). So, in essence, Plan A strategy (be the best spouse you can be, control LBs, meet ENs, etc.) in our case masks my true emotions and makes it difficult for my WW to understand the severity of her misdeed. Very revealing and surprising.

Now that we hit a "plateau" in our relationship recovery, what is the next step? I just feel too tired to do anything, plus cancer things with my Mom have been taking up time. All advice is appreciated, as usual.

Hang in there 1Coolguy

Plan A is all you've said by the way Well Done!!!

I do feel it is very important to allow your spouse know how hurt you are as well.

The key is in the approach.

I feel so hurt, devasted all of that, in a protective, caring, empathy driven, way.


Caution do hold onto your socks tightly, anger then rage will come, be prepared.

I am happy for you, at this time.

Ktulu.

Greetings, Ktulu, star*fish,

A quick update. It's been about 2.5 months since D-Day, and I am starting to experience a delayed, but very potent bout of anger, which seems to sabotage a fairly successful Plan A in progress. I am not quite sure as to what might be helpful in stemming it, but would appreciate some advice.

Initially, the most hurtful aspect of an affair was the discovery of a grievous breach of trust. Then things settled down as I concentrated on Plan A and, later on, on the career opportunity my wife had in NYC. With the encouragement of many helpful posters, I started exploring the idea of letting my wife move there to pursue her career opportunity. Last week we went there together to look at possible compromise arrangements. Regretfully, this trip triggered a fit of visceral jealousy I never thought I was capable of. We are now fighting every day over this proposed move. My wife seems stunned to realize the depth of this delayed anger I had in me. I understand that, as far as LBs go, this is probably not helping anything. However, I seem unable to shake off the emotional impact of this delayed realization of other facets of the affair.

There were some things about this job opportunity that felt like red flags, perhaps undeservedly. Her prospective boss is a single guy, just a couple of years older than me. The primary editing studio is in his home. For some reason, this really set me on edge. I couldn't believe the avalanche of visual stuff involving the OM that was triggered by a simple conversation about work arrangements.

Now, what do I do? I feel anger and jealousy taking over. I am truly miserable and not in control of the situation. My wife is confused and surprised that I am reacting in such way. External situation is no better. Her job offer involving this move to NYC is supposed to be finalized this week. My Mom's second cancer surgery is the week after. I've got work problems piling up to the ceiling because I took time off to help my wife. I feel Plan A is unraveling.

Advice is appreciated, as always.

Hi cool guy,

I'm kinda surprised you changed your mind about this job....you convinced me that is was a crummy idea LOL and I was siding with you by the time I last checked in. You let your "giver" negotiate this deal and now your "taker" is VERY pissed off. No matter...let's talk about now.

What plans have you set up to see eachother during this separation? What precautions are in place to protect your marriage?

Even folks in Plan A occasionally get mad, jealous etc....so don't beat yourself up about that. Try your best to express those feelings without love busting, but no one expects you to be superman. Sometimes damage control is the best any of us can do....this stuff just hurts!! You strike me as not usually the jealous type....and surprised by this....please share that with your wife because it's important that she understands how betrayal affects the core dynamics of a relationship.

What is she doing to rebuild trust???

Greetings, star*fish,

Re the job in NYC, I haven't decided either way yet...just looking at options. The trip there coincided with some business, so it was "sensible" to look at possible arrangements.

What plans have you set up to see eachother during this separation? If we do, in fact, decide to go this route, I would ask her to spend a week each month (2 long weekends) at my place. I could probably manage one 2-day weekend there. One week a month could probably work for me for a few months, maybe a year.

What precautions are in place to protect your marriage? Again, I would ask for full accountability and being available 24/7 by mobile phone. I would probably try random surveillance every now and then...she said she's OK with the idea but wouldn't pay for it. She said she'd agree with me meeting her colleagues and setting workplace boundaries...I am not sure how this would go.

If she strays again, I will not hesitate in terminating the marriage. She knows any future indiscretion will result in divorce...she says she doesn't want that.

What is she doing to rebuild trust??? This is a tough one to answer. As I see it, she's largely sticking to the Plan A "deal" we made. I "spot check" for untruthfulness every now and then, and do not detect it. I am fairly confident there's no contact and that OM is no longer a factor to be considered. Relationship-wise, she's back to being the same person she was before the affair. Physically, she's markedly less interested in SF, yet makes herself available to me as much as I want. Sometimes this "submission to SF" does give me pause, as it's fairly difficult to see what would make this situation change...obviously, I am not very happy about it.

So...any thoughts? Reading some other folks' stories, I have it very easy, yet I remain unhappy and keep thinking frequently about ending the marriage. Is it possible that true forgiveness and release of all bad memories will never come?

cool guy,

If the marriage fails to recover....yes, it's possible that true forgiveness and release will not come. Many marriages survive the affair, and then fail to recover afterwards. You will need to do the spot check for a while...it's part of early recovery, but frankly, it keeps the pain fresh too so until trust starts to build again....you won't feel that happy. But let's talk about the "duty" sex. I think it's a bad idea to engage in sex that your wife is submitting to, rather than enthusiastic about. She already feels that you are far to "controlling", the monitoring will feel even more so....but if you add "submitting" to sex...this could get ugly. Please be careful.

I know this is a tough time for you cool....and I remember when I went thought this time myself. For a while....expect things to be strained and uncomfortable...but slowly, it does ease up and sex becomes good again. Give it some time.

I hope you had a nice thanksgiving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

star*fish,

Thanks...had an Ok Thanksgiving with my parents...Mom's not feeling too well, her second cancer surgery is on Dec 7. My folks don't know about the A, and treat my wife as a daughter. This probably was a tough evening for her, all this lovey-dovey family-centered talk from my folks.

Right after we got home tonight she asked me point blank whether I realized I deserved and needed someone better than her. I calmly asked her to elaborate. She told me that she felt like an impostor of the worst kind when my parents just poured out love on her and treated her as their child. She told me she would probably never be able to give me love, care and support a great guy like me deserved (this is all in the context of just observing a great loving relationship my folks have after 35 years together). She told me she feels terrible she cannot put the idea of leaving for this job opportunity out of her mind even in light of my Mom's surgery and the need for the family to rally together, but she's not ready to put family first and abandon the NYC job idea. So she basically asked me to consider the idea of finding someone more suitable than her, so that she wouldn't feel like she's ruining my life. She'd stay married to me as long as I wanted her, but I needed to look for a better match.

Initially, I felt speechless. Then I asked her whether she wanted to stay married to me. She said "yes" but said she couldn't stand the idea of hurting me by short-changing me on things I valued most and needed out of the marriage. I asked her whether she could see herself changing and she said she wasn't sure. Then she clarified that maintaining sexual fidelity wasn't an issue, it was everything else. She re-iterated that I was the best person she ever met and that she was so inferior to me that the constant mental comparison was making her so uncomfortable that she doubted I could ever love her. When I said I did, she again told me she wasn't worthy of me. The conversation ran in circles for a while, then I left.

Where would this come from? She wants the NYC job, I get it. But why would a 25-year old basically shut the door on making changes in herself? Should I back off for a while? Is this a sign of just her being overwhelmed?

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving as well.

With the way the day went at your parents it may also be her feeling remorse. She may be seeing what she could be destroying.

Hello,

I think what she said to you was very significant.
She told you that she would never be able to give you the love, care and support that you deserve.
I think she was being very honest with you and she put the ball in your court. It is up to you to decide want you want in a marriage. She is telling you that you want an orange but she is an apple. She has been forthcoming and telling you that if you want a spouse that can love, care and support you like you should be then you need to find someone else. Again I applaud her for being very honest with you. The question is whether you are willing to settle for a spouse who cannot or is unwilling to love, care and support you the way you should be. It sounds to me that you deserve more and that someone else would appreciate and support your qualities much more than your spouse. Again actions of your spouse say a great deal. What she is saying is that the wonderful loving and caring relationship your parents enjoy with each other will not happen between you and her. I think she made this abundantly clear to you. Are you really hearing what she is saying to you or engaging in selective perception? If you want a relationship like your parents have then you are wasting your time with her. I wish you luck.