This is me, Mimi..

Tell me when you're here.

I'm here!!!

Mimi –

The relationship is with whom you might suspect. I did indeed call her back last week, and we talked a long time. This has been a major temptation for me, and I’ve really fallen into this trap badly. I’m not proud, and I know that this is wrong. Perhaps I need someone that I trust to tell me that, hold me accountable, whatever. I don’t know, I’m really confused about this right now. I don’t want her to get fired, so please don’t go there as far as her occupation. I don’t want anyone else reading this to have any hint as to who this is all about, okay?

I’m going to tell you the facts. I know the right answer is “stop it”. But please give me that answer in some way that I can make myself do it.

I called her back on the night of the Plan B letter (last Monday night). Told her what had happened, we talked about it for a long time. Now we talk every day, about everything. Work, kids, relationships, everything.

We even pray together over the phone. I know that this doesn’t make it right, that the whole thing is wrong. We haven’t met face to face. I know how I fell into this whole thing, it’s the acceptance and kindness in her voice. I don’t know if she’s a snake in the grass or what. But it has really tripped me up, I love talking to her. After so long of all the things I’ve heard from WW (never should have married you, never loved you, never made love to you because I wanted to, etc...), it is so nice to hear a woman say KIND things to me.

Mimi - I don’t know what I’m asking you to do because you have to tell me to STOP IT.

Don’t give up on me. I am so sorry that I have let you down after all you have done for me.

First of all, you certainly have not let me down. I understand completely what you are going through. I understand the temptation that you are having. I began having regular conversations with my FWH's best friends for heaven's sake. This is devastating for us. We are wounded, needing to be healed.

I would be all for you being in a relationship with whomever when, if ever, you are finished with your WW. However, this type of relationship you are pursuing now is not healthy. I don't think I can use rationality to get you to stop this. What you are doing now is not based on reason because I know that you are a smart, reasonable, analytical guy. It is based on EMOTIONAL NEED. You are feeling HUNGRY AND EMPTY. You need FEEDING.

JUST DO IT!! JUST STOP IT!!

Then come here and talk about your pain. You are trying to escape from the pain. Try to bear the pain. I know that it can feel intolerable.

How about this? Does this work? Although this feels good now, will you be able to live with yourself knowing that YOU ARE USING THIS WOMAN. She is your pain reliever. Regardless of her intent, in the long run, you will have to live with yourself. You are adding to your list of problems here. It's going to be hard enough resolving your issues with your wife. This is another human life that you are dealing with--not a pill like your antidepressant. She will not easily go away once you are finished with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We even pray together over the phone </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, this is disturbing to me. God is not in this. This should help you to see how irrational you are being. GOD DOES NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU ARE DOING. God wants you to work on your marriage. God brought you and your wife together and the DEVIL is very busy trying to destroy you, your wife and your marriage.

Now is the time to change your cell and home phone numbers. Do not talk with this woman again in your life. If you do decide to divorce your wife, this is not the woman that you need to be with. You need to be with a woman who holds your values and your beliefs. You need to be with a woman who would be supportive of your sons and your daughter-in-laws. That would be the type of woman who would refuse to hold such private conversations with a married man whose wife is currently sick and troubled. That would be a loving, caring woman who is not using your current predicament for her own selfish reasons.

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it is so nice to hear a woman say KIND things to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is saying kind things to you but she is not being kind to you. If she were kind, she would be saying to you what I am saying. She also might be saying, "Get your issues resolved with your wife and if you decide to divorce her, then we can talk. Otherwise, I'm bringing you down. I'm not helping you. I 'm adding to your problems. I'm making things worse for you. Please don't call me anymore." These would be REALLY kind words for her to say.

I will not give up on you!!!!

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

stby Mimi...

Just had an internet outage here, I'm about to read your post.

Still there?

I'm back.

Mimi -

I will go back and read your post over and over. I know you are right.

Ironically, the thing that may make me stop is the realization that she is likely to get hurt by this whole thing. We even talk about that. What if WW responds (eventually) to the Plan B letter in a positive way? I think it would devastate her, even though she says otherwise. I know those things.

I know the devil knows exactly where my weakness is, and he's determined to hit me with it. Even the divorced physician on the plane. I'm just an average guy, not some real catch, and here's this attractive 41 year old physician asking me to come to dinner, go flying, etc. I've not been tempted too much on that one...but I don't think it's a coincidence.

Mimi...I'm not going to make promises and then pretend to keep them.

PLEASE, PLEASE keep me accountable. No one else knows about this.

"What if WW responds (eventually) to the Plan B letter in a positive way? I think it would devastate her, even though she says otherwise. I know those things. "

You are saying here that you know that her definite desire is to break up your marriage. It would devastate her for you to reconcile with your wife? How does she communicate this? She does not sound like a healthy person. You are asking for DANGER here.

Think about sharing this in some way with the others on the forum. This will increase your accountability.

Just know that if this continues there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT YOU WILL RECONCILE WITH YOUR WIFE. You might as well go ahead and file for separation. This is true.

I will not condemn you for this. This comes out of your neediness. You are coming to terms with the trouble that your marriage was in prior to your knowledge of your WW's A. You were not getting your needs met either.

Had you thought about using this time as opportunity for personal growth? You can get clear with yourself what you are personally needing in a relationship? You will not be able to clearly learn this in the PA relationship. You will need to spend time with yourself and your GOD. Pray by yourself and ask the Lord to lead you and guide you. Your prayers won't be answered and I don't think you will hear the SPIRIT in the presence of EVIL.

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

The more I read your posts and try to respond in a sane way, the more I see the stupidity of what I'm trying to explain. I know that.

She says she wants to see me reconcile with my wife, but I know that she's grown very fond of me. She's said nothing to that effect, but I can tell. I know this is dangerous. She says she can just disappear and won't be hurt if we quit talking, I don't believe it.

I had planned on using this time for personal growth, still hope to do so. There are lots of things that I want to do (for my own good).

You say: "You are coming to terms with the trouble that your marriage was in prior to your knowledge of your WW's A. You were not getting your needs met either."

I don't understand why you say this. Can you explain?

Read over the Affirmation thread that I started on IN RECOVERY. Think back to what you have said about my FWH's NEED FOR ADMIRATION. You have described your WW as being critical, not AFFIRMING.

I think ont he AFFIRMATION thread, 2OAK talks about how intoxicating that it can be getting this EN met by the OW.

The PA is turning into the OW and you are beginning an EA, my friend. It sounds like you are becoming addicted to what she is offering because of its affect on you. You are right. She will become addicted to you and she will not easily go away. You know yourself that you are not far off from meeting with her and it will become a PA. You know this and want this.

It has to be COLD TURKEY or else a tragedy will happen!!

This can help you see how your WW was seduced. It sounds like the both of you were needy.

Your WW is the person with whom you share history and with whom you can build your legacy. Your boys and your grandchildren need for you to be together.

Okay, Mimi. You've hit me with enough right now. Let me digest it a bit.

I know everything you say is right. I know that I'm standing right in the balance, I just need to stop, take a break from it all, and contemplate this whole thing. It doesn't help any that WW has now taken to going to friends and family (including my parents) belittling me.

I never, never thought that I would find myself in this place. We should never underestimate the likelihood of our own fallibility.

I like your suggestion of venting my pain here....but folks are going to tire of hearing me keep spilling my guts sooner or later.

I'll be back with you.

Thanks for being there (again).

Don't use the rationalization that we will tire of you and the PA won't.

We have all the time in the world to hear your venting!! This is a huge community that has really walked in your shoes!

Digest and I'll check on you later!!!!

Mimi-

I'm update at lunch today, there was a lot along this line that happened yesterday afternoon.

Mimi –

You said a lot of things yesterday, all of which I know are right. But, the one thing you said that hit home is that this is another human life I am using for my own purposes. Even though this may not be the right thing to say right now, I do care enough that I don’t want to hurt her. She is a single mother (divorced) who is struggling to care for her kids and she doesn’t need more excess baggage in her life. It is selfish and wrong of me to be getting my EN’s met through her. I realize that.

Also, she has a boyfriend that does not know about our discussion. We discussed the very real relationship that she has with her boyfriend, and the commitment that they’ve made to one another. This came at a good time because she told me that she had a long conversation at lunch with her best friend at work and told her that she was feeling GUILTY about this whole thing.

We have agreed that we need to stick with the reality of our relationships. I’m married, she has a boyfriend. We both agree that we will stay loyal to those commitments, and curtail our relationship. This was difficult (after only 1 week, can you believe it?).

There was something else. The first time you left a message on my thread that you needed my help, I didn’t see it because I was occupied with the 2 hour conversation with her. I know that I have already told you that.

But then you posted your plea for encouragement on Sunday and included me in your subject line. I sat down and read it and was quickly responding to it. But you know what? My cell phone rang, and I didn’t finish my post to you until a long, long time later. By the time I posted it, you just missed it. To my recollection, you have only directly asked for my help 2X, and both times I was delayed in responding because of her. That hurts me a lot. In reality, it probably made no real difference in your situation, but it made me realize that I was not there for the one person who has ALWAYS been there for me when I needed them most. That hurts me a lot to think that, and I apologize to you for that.

I went back and read the posts from other folks on my thread when I revealed my temptation. There was a lot there from folks who, I sense, really do care. I was especially touched with the one from Lady in Red.

In my evening of soul searching, there is something else that I realized. SH talked about how it is our responsibility to expose our EN’s appropriately, not to the wrong folks or at the wrong place. It hadn’t really occurred to me until last night that this was my fallacy on the airplane. I was indeed at fault as there was no reason for me to be taking part in a conversation that led to the invitation that I received. I see now that I must be much more guarded, there are women out there who have needs just like I do, and to reveal those needs can lead to a terrible temptation for both of us.

Add to all of this, there is a number of issues going on right now with WW. She is making every move possible to restore our relationship while telling me she is going to continue her relationship with OM. I just tell her “read the letter”. No more discussion required. This is going to be tough, she’s doing everything she can to get to my heart (kindness, gentleness, etc.).

I’ll post more later, but that is where I am right now. I’m going to my parents house for lunch. This will be the first time I’ve seen them since the news broke, and I hear there has been some angry exchanges with WW. Not looking forward to this at all (conflict avoider).

Thanks, Mimi......Be patient with me.

TROUBLE:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there are women out there who have needs just like I do, and to reveal those needs can lead to a terrible temptation for both of us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU'VE GOT IT!! Boundary problems such as this is what starts As. We have to put up a wall of protection out here to safeguard our marriages.


In fact, TROUBLE, it seems that you are needing to wrap yourself up in a cocoon. You need safety and protection from your WW, the PA, your parents, your sons, her parents. You will need to face this alone, in your real life. Also, you have the folks here, Steve Harley and, most importantly, GOD. Your boys are amazing. However, you will find that most folks do not understand the position that you are in as a WS and most folks do not understand the MB Principles. Wrap yourself up in the MB beliefs or you will be highly vulnerable to outside forces. It may sound cultish but it is your only salvation in this culture now that does not believe in marriage and values.

I found that I had to become distanced from my mother. She understandably became so enraged with my FWH that she wanted me to divorce him and find someone else. She confronted him at his office during my PLAN A---a real problem. It was a loss for me because I learned that she really did not understand me or the importance of my marriage. I also loss my church family. I hope none of this happens for you.

However, it is important for you to shield yourself from outside forces that will steer you off of your goal. This includes your WW who sounds like she continues to want to cake-eat. There seems to be too much contact with her. You need to cease all contact for your protection. Also she does not seem to be suffering enough. She seems to be getting something out of providing domestic support for you. I think it's a good idea to not let her do anything for you. You need to be DARK to do an EFFECTIVE PLAN B. She needs to feel like she has lost you!!!!!

Thanks for being there for me. I was really touched by your post. I am struggling a bit with my YS. He had a needed vent session with me yesterday. I did not share this with him. However, it scares me that I was dysfunctional in giving him more attention than my FWH in the past. Now that I am acting like a normal wife, he is feeling rejected. That sounds sick doesn't it? Almost oedipal. I can see now that I got my attention from the children and he is seeing a normal marriage as depriving of him. I don't know what to do about this. I certainly can't fix it over night. However, it is very depressing to me. I've got to encourage him to go on with his life and to let go of needing so much attention from me. He does have a girlfriend who is a couple of years older who seems to be mothering him. Maybe I can encourage him to go into therapy. Oh Well...

Still going wonderful with me and my FWH and he is really trying with the YS.

Thanks, Mimi....

I talked to the boys last night about telling me what Mom said, did, etc. Told them I didn't really need to know any of that, thanks anyway. They seemed to understand that. #1S's b'day is Saturday, and #2S has invited me to come up and the "5" of us celebrate together. Breaks my heart that Mom isn't invited to her own son's birthday party.

Until last night, I had not seen WW since last Monday night. She was sitting on the stairs, in the dark, when I got home. I had to walk past her. She jumped up and put her arms around me, told me she misses me. I remained quiet, didn't hug back. Man did it feel good to feel her warm body next to mine (okay, enough of that). She said that she wants to be the perfect wife, still doing my laundry for me, but she can't give up OM. I brushed her aside and said "read the letter". That was the end of that conversation. I don't know how to avoid her any more than that. BTW - She has moved back into our vacated bedroom. So I take it you think I should not allow her to do my laundry?

My parents (where I just had lunch) were doing better than I expected. Mom insists I come there everyday for lunch. Hard to tell her I don't want to without hurting her feelings. They didn't even mention WW, only hugged me and told me they loved me.

The church family will be an issue. I am assuming that I will not continue attending there, hence losing the church family by default. I had dinner last night with my best friend (1/2 of the couple that we've always done things with), and he was shocked to learn about what was going on. He was worried about me because he didn't know what had happened to me. He said whenever he asked WW where I was, she just said she didn't know. He is a very strong Christian and will be very supportive. (Tennis Thursday night).

Also, he is a member of the Gideons. They are passing out Bibles at the local Youth Det. Ctr. tonight and have asked that I join them. As I've done youth prison ministry in the past, I am thinking about starting that again. I think that working with troubled youth has always been my area of ministry.

I am finding that EVERYONE that I involve is indeed supportive of my MB-guided actions. This includes all family members on both sides (except maybe pesky BIL). I'm not sure I understand you "cocoon" statement in light of this. Can you explain more?

On you situation. I know, Mimi, that you're not asking my opinion on this. But...I can't stress enough how important I believe it to be that YS developes a strong relationship to HIS PARENTS. This is the bond that needs to replace the M + YS bond that he is now troubled to have lost. I know this is a battle that you are fighting alone, as you've indicated FWH's somewhat apathetic approach. But you know how to break through to FWH on a personal level to let him know just how important this is to you. I'm treading in areas that I really know little about, but it just seems like facilitated openness is what is needed here, and you have to be the facilitator. You said that FWH shows you affection now, let him know with affection how much you value his manly input into YS's life, what a good example he is of a father, how YS needs an example like him....and then offer a suggestion that he can act on. ("You know the when you bought him that sub? I could tell that was really special to him. Can you take him to Sub Way for lunch while I'm out Christmas shopping?"). Anyway, maybe a bit tacky, but you get the idea.

Thanks again, Mimi, for sticking with me. I knew I had to tell someone, and I knew it had to be you.

Let's finish any convo. about this today on the thread, and then I'll move back over to the previous one.

Okay with you?

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Troubled Man ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I take it you think I should not allow her to do my laundry?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Also, be slick so that she won't catch you when you are coming home. I had to dodge my FWH at the gym. He would try to come when I came even if only to catch a glimpse of me. The idea is COMPLETE DARKNESS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They didn't even mention WW, only hugged me and told me they loved me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is SUPER!! Your supportive system is fantastic. You are tremendously blessed. You don't seem to need to cocoon yourself like I did. Spend time talking and visiting with your support systems rather than the TEMPTING TEMPTATIONS!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that working with troubled youth has always been my area of ministry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! You really are ministering to OUR SON The Lord works in mysterious ways! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was asking for your advice on this and is it extremely helpful. I have already begun talking to my H about son. He has been giving his advice even at lunch today. I've been expressing my appreciation which, of course, he loves. He does has tons of manly wisdom that the boys can benefit from. My YS wants his attention as well like you are saying. They both are assuming that it's too late for them to establish a bond with each other. You are encouraging me not to give up in doing what I can do it. Sometimes it seems useless since the ball is so much in their court.

Yes, I'd like for you to go back home to GENERAL QUESTIONS. I keep wanting to type your other name in here.

Okay, Mimi....this will be my last post here.

I think the time is just right for your FWH and YS to bond. I am concerned that if you just allow time to take it's course, then they will never have that opportunity once YS leaves home.
Hence the reason I encourage you to take a more active role. Is this controlling? Maybe, so what? Some things deserve control, this is one of them.

I know you are up to the task. Ask me anytime, obviously, I like to give advice if it can be of some benefit.

Okay, back to GQ. Thanks for being with me through this little detour.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Troubled Man ]</small>