I need direction on how to settle in my mind that my intended is committed to faithfulness. This is an issue that we have talked about a few times but I know that it hurts her because after I’ve raised the question a few times it comes across as mistrust. But I think there is reason for at least concern on my part. I need to once and for all settle this. I need to truly understand what her values are. I need to understand if our values are close enough to build a foundation on.<P>Here is the background. We met 1 year ago while we were both at the end of long and bad marriages. We ended up leaving our marriages 2 months after we met. We did not leave for each other. We were only friends at that point but we had seen each other a few times in that 2 months. And yes we were sexually active. In fact the first night we met we were. To be honest and blunt, even though we were building a plutonic friendship in the beginning, we saw each other as “sex buddies”. What we did not expect nor were we looking for was that we would fall in love. But we did.<P>It has been a fantastic love affair for both of us. We both agree that this last year we have both found what we have wanted for a long time. A deep and meaningful love with romance and passion. I intend to ask her to marry me soon. But not until I can get some peace over her commitment to fidelity and understand her values. Again, I hesitate to ask her again directly because I don’t want her to think that mistrust will be an ongoing problem for us.<P>She has worked to let me know that our love is important, that she would never do anything to hurt me or our relationship but I need something more form her and I am not sure what. And what is so strange is that the woman I have known for the last year is not the kind of woman that I think could cheat But she has.<P>We have been very candid about our pasts and even though I don’t want to judge our future on her past there are issues such that I cannot just assume that all is well now and forever. I find myself worried not about her past but what the values of her past say about our future, And it scares me. Essentially, those issues are 3 affairs over the last 20 years of her marriage. She admits she only stayed in the marriage for the sake of her children those years but was needy for love. But the biggy is that she was in an affair when she and I met that I did not know about right away. As our relationship progressed (3 months) and we reached the conclusion that we were falling in love, she told me of this other man (not her husband) and she broke it off with him a week later.<P>That was great but realizing that those first 2 months, that we were casually sexually involved, she was actually in love with that other man and she intended on marrying him once her children were old enough and she was divorced. <P>I realize now that she was pretty confused over the last several years and that she has never really had a true love relationship. She says that the fact that she could be with me sexually when she was in love with another man showed her that there were problems with that relationship. And in fact she was having doubts about that relationship before she met me. Also, in her defense, when she realized that she was interested in me as more then a friend or sex buddy and that she was questioning her relationship with the other man, she did dial back on our physical activity.<P>The final piece in this is during a conversation about faithfulness several months ago, she made the statement that she was 99.99999% sure that she would never be unfaithful to me. At first I accepted this on the grounds that we don’t know what may happen in the future and she being a person that doesn’t like to make empty promises, this was pretty good. But later it hit me that if two people are truly in love and want to be together the rest of their lives that a 100% commitment of faithfulness should be able to be made. Am I dreaming in this day and age or is this a reasonable expectation?<P>My hope in all this is that she has in fact found the relationship that she has always wanted and is ready to commit to one man. But she has never said these words and I think I need to hear them. I don’t want to ask her to say them and I don’t want to open a topic that seems should be resolved by now. But I need confidence in our future before I ask the big question.<P>What should I do?<BR>

I am having trouble comprehending how you could even consider trusting her, or she you for that matter.<P>There is no such thing as a platonic friendship that involves sex. That is an oxymoron.<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 03, 2000).]

<BR>SkyKing,<P>Platonic "sex buddies?" Huh?!?<P>Look, you're a couple of infidels coming out of bad marriages. MB principles dictate that both of you were players in those marriages being bad, so you need to ask yourself what did you learn about your own conduct in your last marriage before you run off into another relationship. It doesn't seem to me that you've done the requisite soul-searching. That's just my opinion, of course.<P>Btw, Frank Pittman's book puts the odds of a successful marriage to this woman above zero, but not by a whole lot. Marriages in which cheaters marry the other person fail miserably the vast majority of the time.<P>Bystander

You had sex with her the night you met, even though you were both married to other people, and now you're wondering if you have similar values? She also lied about other partner(s), thought she was in love with someone else, not her husband, but still had sex with you? And fell in love yet again?<P>Skyking, if you want another marriage to crash and burn, this is your woman.<P>Do yourself a service and read the Marriage Builder materials before embarking on another marriage<P>And last...platonic sex buddy...that's a good one... <P>Best wishes for your future,<BR>Lor<P><BR>

Well I got exactly the kind of responses I expected. And I appreciate your candor. I'm surprised by the touch of venom each had but I didn't come here to be told my behavior was alright. And I certainly cannot disagree with your assesments.<P>Bottom line, I'm not proud of the way this relationship developed nor do I condone it. I have sunk to a low the last couple years that surprises me. <P>But I see something in the relationship that holds great promise. Here are two people that want a change in morality and regret the path they've taken.<P>If there is a way to take what's begun and build something good on it, I want to find that. That's what I'm here for.

Actions speak louder than word. Both you and your new lover will in the future continue to do to each other and to others also as you have done unto others in the past. If you don't want to be that sort of person yourself, only you can break the cycle. The place to start isn't with this new woman, but maybe with yourself and what's left of your family. Don't worry, I'm not talking about a reconciliation with your ex-wife, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but perhaps your children, parents, etc. if you have any.<P>I have a friend who at one time got involved with a married woman. He was single at the time. Eventually they fell in love, she divorced here husband, and married him. There were no children from the first marriage. The new couple went on to have two beautiful girls. 5 years after they got married his wife was in bed with another man again and another divorce was underway.<P>That's only one story, so it doesn't make a whole book. But I would say yes, your girlfriend will cheat on you eventually. But fair is fair, you will cheat on her too.

SkyKing,<BR>If you are looking for fidelity in this lady then I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I mean this with this utmost understanding and Christian love.<P>You both need to examine what is most important: the excitement (my understanding as you have described above) which is more akin to lust than love or true love which would have never done any of the things that the two of you have done. I am not trying to bash you because I don't know you. I mere present to you what God says is the case.<P>I expect flames because this makes me sound holier than thou. I am merely pointing out that we are not following the true rules which are going to be used when the final day comes. The pain exists because we are are to self absorbed in seking pleasure rather than doing what is right.<P>MONDO HUG my friend.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P>

>>But I would say yes, your girlfriend will cheat on you eventually. But fair is fair, you will cheat on her too.<<<P>You are not giving much hope for people being able to change. To repent. You don't really think that she or I are destined to a life of cheating do you?<P>What I want more than anything is a monogamous loving relationship. I want marriage in the best of definitions. I screwed up for a time and realized that that is not what I want.<P>I believe that she wants the same. She says she does. I believe I can/have changed. I believe she can/is. I am willing to take the risk. But I want to do what it takes, and she her part to build on something that we find real between us.<P>As far as rebuilding my family. I have 2 adult children that I have a wonderful relationship with. She the same with her 4. They are very accepting of us and support us. <P>It is possible, if entered with eyes wide open and using the principals I am learning here at MB to succeed in a relationship that comes from two such histories as our own. <P>It has to be possible. Time will tell if it is possible for us.

You should change your name to SkyDope. Do you believe in the tooth fairy? She thinks that there is a 99.99999% she can be faithful? What is the small percentage that is keeping her from committing? I think both of you need help fast!!

>>I expect flames because this makes me sound holier than thou<<<P>On the contrary Rob. There's nothing wrong with strong words when they are qualified with genuine care as yours are. Thank you.<P>>>You both need to examine what is most important: the excitement (my understanding as you have described above) which is more akin to lust than love or true love which would have never done any of the things that the two of you have done<<<P>True it started with lust. That was a little over a year ago. What has surprised us both is that what appears to be true love has come out of this. We proclaimed our love for each other 1 year ago this month. There has been no infidelity since. No desire for it.<P>>>The pain exists because we are are to self absorbed in seking pleasure rather than doing what is right.<<<P>I agree. And because our relationship has progressed to the point it is now, we want to do what is right.<P>Thanks professorg.<P>

>>I think both of you need help fast!!<<<P>Zip, that's why I'm here.

Zip- that wasnt cool- I apologize Sky King.<BR>I do agree though to what everyone here has said about this relationship. Understand that we gathered here are those who have been betrayed and that wound is deep and is slow to heal.<BR>Now, SkyKing, if you came here to "rationalize" this relationship - wrong place.<BR>I hopw noithing but the best for you and her, together or seperate, but here dishosety to you early on is a concern- and i would desperately look at that together and ask yourself honestly if you could trust.<P>IMHO, If someone told me that she was 99.99% sure- I'd wonder what that.01% represented.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She has worked to let me know that our love is important, that she would never do anything to hurt me or our relationship but I need something more form her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>She was married and having an affair with another man, when you two started having an affair? Oh, what a tangled web we weave, yada, yada, yada.<BR>She made the same commitment to her husband.<P>Sure it is possible to change. Many of us here are changing even though our spouses think/believe we never will. However, since you were involved with her BEFORE she was divorced, you did have some play in the demise of her marriage, not matter how much she says it was bad before. Almost all marriages are not that bad before someone else gets in the picture. As soon as a 3rd party gets into the picture, suddenly the marriage was total hell.<P>Say goodbye to her & find someone who is not involved in a relationship.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

>>Now, SkyKing, if you came here to "rationalize" this relationship - wrong place.<<<P>Covenant, is that how I am coming across? Really, tell me.<P>I am trying to give it a chance for a future. There is a quality to our relationship that is too great to not give it an *honest try. I don't want to just walk away from it. I will though if I cannot gain confidence that she is being real with me.<P>I have changed. I believe anyone can. What I am trying to glean from this place is the kind of questions and conversations to have with her and the kinds of *positive things I can do. We have a tainted past. We can do things to have bright future. Maye this is not the place to learn those things.<P>Your comment that the people here have been burned before helps put these responses into context. But the last thing I want to do is rationalize. That's only being dishonest with myself.<P>One last question. I didn't realize that there is a lot of victim pain here. I mean that with respect. Is this thread harmful here? If so I will stop.<BR>

Skyking,<BR>I think if you are utterly serious, and so is she, premarital counseling is a must. A year is a test of fidelity, but not much of one. <P>People absolutely can change, certainly for the worse (which is why a lot of us landed here on the infidelity board) and I believe people can also change for the good, But there are both thought and behavioral patterns to be broken. For example, when things get tough, your woman cheats. Your marriage will get tough, all marriages have rough spots whether it is work, money, relatives, time, recreation, sex. She has to learn a better way to cope.<P>You obviously have a lot of patience, and from your responses here to some crap, including from me, you have the ability to control your temper and still seek after your goals--a good & faithful marriage with this woman that you love.<P>Break those infidelity patterns, seek counseling and you've got a chance.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Thank you Lor....<P>This is the kind of constructive input I'm looking for. <P>>>I think if you are utterly serious, and so is she, premarital counseling is a must. A year is a test of fidelity, but not much of one. <<<P>Good point. And her willingness to go to counseling will also show her recognition that our past behavior was wrong.<P>>>there are both thought and behavioral patterns to be broken.<<<P>Exactly. I want to find out how this is done. Certainly counseling is a good start.<P>>> For example, when things get tough, your woman cheats. Your marriage will get tough, all marriages have rough spots whether it is work, money, relatives, time, recreation, sex. She has to learn a better way to cope.<<<P>Wisdom. Thank you<P>>>You obviously have a lot of patience, and from your responses here to some crap, including from me, you have the ability to control your temper and still seek after your goals--a good & faithful marriage with this woman that you love.<P>Break those infidelity patterns, seek counseling and you've got a chance.<<<P>2 reasons for the patience. One, I do truly love this woman and she does me. Two, I've been on your side of the fence before. That is, hearing some people spout some pretty ridiculos stuff. Even when *I read my original post I have to shake my head in disbelief.<P>If I didn't believe that this relationship could succeed, I wouldn't try.<P><BR>>>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and <BR>give up. (Gal 6:9)<<<P>That's perfect. Thank you. I truly believe that and I understand the spirtual foundation to it. I started ouot doing what was right. Made some decisions to do some things that definitely were not right. It's time do things right again. Walking away from this woman after over a years investment in each other would not be right.<P>It deserves a chance.<P>Take care Lor. I look forward to your input.<BR>

SkyKing:<P>Seeing that you both have checkered pasts that each know about, you may have an advantage in that you both KNOW that it's going to take work.<P>I believe that Harley's principles are very sound, and that if both you and your girlfriend commit to living by the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>"Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>, then you have a good chance of making your marriage a success.<P>Those four rules are:<P>Eliminate Lovebusters (avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness)<P>Meet each other's emotional needs (be a major component of your spouse's happiness)<P>Complete Honesty (total, without lovebusters)<P>Spend time with each other (15 hrs/week).<P>If you can commit to this, you will be successful. It's obvious that you have to both work on the Rule of Honesty, and you'll probably need to learn the Policy of Joint Agreement and how to negotiate. But if you realize the risks, you're ahead of the game.<P>I'd discuss these concepts with your girlfriend, and see how she feels about them. The book "The Four Gifts of Love" is a nice presentation of the above ideas (it's available from the website). I'd also suggest "Give and Take" as being another appropriate Harley book for the two of you.

Skyking, if it is any comfort about your first post, it absolutely lightened my day. The "platonic sex buddies" made me laugh on and off for hours--and there isn't a whole lot that is funny in my life right now. You do know platonic means "completely non-sexual"? And plutonic has something to do with rocks & geology, so that's really no help to you.<P>Not meaning to make fun of you for the spelling error, most of us get hanged without a spell-checker.<P>The MB Harley materials are great, especially SURVIVING THE AFFAIR & HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS. Other books I would recommend:<BR>After the affair by Springs<BR>Torn Asunder by Carder<BR>Divorce Busting by Weiner-Davis<BR>The Five Love languages by Chapman<BR>Love Life by Wheat<P>I really do think you both need to process the fall-out from your last marriages.

Thanks for pointing out my grammatical errors! <S> I don't mind at all. My point was simply that there was sex but no love. Just lust. We were friends that saw sex as recreation. I will pay for that for a long time. I know that it was a terrible abuse of one of the most precious things that God meant for lifelong commited couples.<P>And thanks for the comfort<g>. Actually I am quite up and clear headed about this thing though. This not a new concern for me. I have had the concerns of my first post the entire year of our relationship.<P>But I just sat on it for most of this time. Stupid? Very much so. I've obviously come to be very much in love with this woman. Could have saved myself a lot of grief and a potential ulcer had I walked away then. But on the other hand, if this works, I would have walked away from a truly wonderful relationship.<P>You know this really amazes me. Subtract the unseemliness of her past and you see an amazing woman that I have seen be very loyal and honest with friends and family. She is loved and repsected by many people around her. Her children think she is the greatest. I have had long time friends of hers tell me what a good and wonderful friend she has been to them. She is generous and really enjoys life. Dr. Jekyl and Ms. Hyde.<P>I don't understand. But this is why I have hope.<P>oh and plutonic - Of deep igneous or magmatic origin.<P>platonic - Transcending physical desire and tending toward the purely spiritual or ideal<P><S>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you see an amazing woman that I have seen be very loyal and honest with friends and family. She is loved and repsected by many people around her. Her children think she is the greatest. I have had long time friends of hers tell me what a good and wonderful friend she has been to them. She is generous and really enjoys life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! This describes my Wife exactly. Until her affair.<P>I guess I'm saying that a relationship is an ongoing thing. It's not something that you can allow to stagnate or "just be great." You have to do plent of work to keep it great. Things you are doing now seem easy and second nature, but how about in two years? Maybe tedious or something you don't really like?