Distressed,<P>Since your replies to my post yesterday were so insightful, I did a search on some of your other posts. I came across one that I think was to Nellie, about how you felt her H was still in the "feel good" stage and was avoiding all the pain he had caused and trying to enjoy his new life. You said in three years he would be someone to feel sorry for. I had talked with a lady who has gone thru the same thing I have. I told her my ex seemed to try to avoid me completely, even when something needed to be discussed about the kids. She said he was in the avoidance stage. Now that I've probably confused you, what I'm trying to say is, do you think they can avoid and rationlize the rest of their life? I would think even if the OR lasts, the guilt would have to catch them someday. In your post I saw, you said they would never have any peace. We probably covered a lot of this in yesterdays post, but if you have time I would like your comments.<P>Thanks<BR>AD

AD:<P>This will sound bad, but if you're looking at my old posts, you'll probably see me state opinions in every possible direction. I've been here more than a year through all sorts of phases of my own evolution.<P>I have no way of really knowing the answer to your question, but I do know what I believe about people. I feel very strongly that if a person had a conscience before, it will come out again eventually. I don't think that good people permanently turn bad. Unfortunately, when avoidance is very strong and there are few negative ramifications to the avoidance behavior, it can go on for a very long time. Years.<P>I've counseled with Steve Harley. He spoke to me at length about avoidance behavior, which is really about minimizing pain. The avoider lives in the day only, not in the past or in the future. As long as he perceives more pain associated with addressing the marital issues than not addressing them, he will not address them that day. According to Steve, the balance eventually tips. In my case, he was convinced that it must be eating my husband alive not to see our baby and that he would eventually have so much pain from that behavior that he would be forced to take action. She's now 18 months old and he still doesn't see her. I'm now separated 16 months and I see no signs of cracking. He still won't talk to me honestly and with compassion. So when I give you my opinion on this, it's based more on logic and faith than personal experience.<P>Still, I go with Harley and what I posted before. As long as the betrayer continues to have some contact with the people he's hurt (i.e. he doesn't move across the country like my friend's father did and never saw them for 20 years), this is likely to catch up with them. I also stick by my comments from the other thread that these guys are going to go through another miserable spell, since they haven't looked at themselves and made the changes necessary for successful relationships. It is only when they hit rock bottom, probably caused by a major external event (like OW dumping them, loss of job, loss of parent), that they will be able to look at themselves. Some huge pain needs to happen to them or they will just coast along. But when it happens, it will be devastating.<P>Just my opinion. If you want more statistics, check out Private Lies by Pittman, Irreconcilable Differences by Talley, and the Conway books. All of these authors state that virtually all betrayers regret their actions a few years down the road.<P>Whether they do or not is almost secondary. Right now, these are not people capable of love, growth, learning or compassion. What kind of life is that?

Distressed,<P>Thank you for replying to my post. Your answer was very insightful. My mother has told me many times that I want too much too soon, she feels my ex will have to hit rock bottom before we see any changes. He has always had a conscience in the past and it has completely disappeared for now. I'm hoping one thing that will hit him is how little time he has with his sons, but since he still sees them on alternate weekends that could be enough. I think even if it is easier for them to avoid these issues, it would still be like being between a rock and a hard place, don't you? I don't see how the place they are in could be very happy, even with OW. I was feeling really good today, then I thought, "Oh no! If I'm getting over it, maybe he will, too!" Until they address this situation and deal with it, I don't think they can move on, do you?<P>Thanks <P>AD

Hey, AD, see sidney's thread - what the doc told her. It is similar to what your Mom is telling you about H's needing to hit rock bottom.....<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thanks Roll Me Away. It did seem to fit. I guess what I need to realize is this is a problem with my H and since he doesn't want my help, I just have to take care of myself and let events unfold. If you can't already tell, I over-analyze everything and sometimes I think he will be the only betrayer to go on to a bigger and better life, with no regrets. <BR>I don't see how.<P>AD

AD,<P>I also want to "fix" my H and save him form himslef here. I have spent countless hours, days, weeks and months thinking this through from every angle. I have obessed myself crazy. The bottom line is this - know the who, why, when and wheres is great, but it is the ACTION and OUTCOME that really matter here.<P>Distressed has great insight here. For sure, our H's have to get slammed all the way into the ground before they will stop avoiding whatever it is they need to look at internally. No one can do that for them. No amount of love we have for them can take that job away - it is something they MUST do for themselves. <P>I have discussed this ad infinitum with my counselor. I call it the "diversion" tactics - my H creates the crisis of the affair to divert attention from whatever is bothering him. He needs the triangle to keep the crisis going. If I "quit", he will have to create some other crisis to help him avoid his introspection. I call him the "runaway" H, because that is all this is.......<P>Roll Me Away <BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>