When I came home form work, my H was here working on the computer. He looked so d@mned good!! <P>He was nice to me and I was nice to him...I did mildly LB a few times. First thing I noticed was new silver earrings - I DID NOT give them - so I'm sure they're from the OW. LB#1 - I said,"You got new earrings." He didn't say anything. Now, why in the world did I have to say that???? I could SEE them! <P>I asked if he wanted a drink and he said yes and I fixed it. He worked on the computer and I went to change clothes. LB#2 - When I came out of the bedroom, I asked him what he did with his work telephone caller ID box and answering machine. He said he is using it "elsewhere". I made a grimace and asked if he had changed his home office telephone number and he said no. I guess he is using this at the OW's house. (I hate that b!tch!!!!) <P>Then, I went in the kitchen and started working on the newspaper crossword. He came in the kitchen and sat with me. He noticed my silver bracelet, AGAIN. I said, "H, you keep looking at this silver bracelet - don't you remember this is the one my S sent me for my BD last year?" He said, "You never used to wear it." I used to wear 4 gold bracelets - 1 was my M's and 3 he bought me, one with diamonds. He then looked to see if I was still wearing my wedding ring and I was. I said "Yes, I am still wearing it and this other ring you bought me in Greece." I asked him if it bothered him I was not wearing his beacelets, and he said "Wear what you want." I am going to put the gold bracelets back on after this post - it obviousaly bothers him I am not wearing them. Then he said, "You got new earrings, too." I said S bought them for me for Christmas. He said, "Oh." So, I'll also start wearing the earrings he gave me - diamond ones for our tenth anniversary and another gold pair, too.<P>He noticed stuff I had done all around the house and commented on a new little girl statue that is a bird feeder on the deck. I said S's had given me that for Christmas. He noticed alot of things. <P>I showed him the new low-voltage lights I had done and he said I did a great job. While outside, he started rubbing his neck (which is our signal he wants me to rub his neck), so I walked behind him and rubbed his neck and shoulders a long time. I pressed up against his backside while I was doing it, too! <P>We came inside and talked some more about the kids. He asked me when was I going to Key West for my work related conference. I told him it is in a few weeks and reminded him I had invited him to go with me. He said. "Well, if I went to Key West with you, I could get out of going to Memphis for these customer training meetings." I said I would love to have him go with me. (I wanted to say how much I wanted to see the sunset with him and other sappy and frisky stuff, too, but I held it all in).<P>But, he never said yes or no and said he had to go. I didn't try to ask him to stay and I walked out to the car with him. I asked if he needed some sodas to take to where he is living and he said yes. I gave him a 12-pack of Cokes. He got in the van and stuck his head out to kiss me and we kissed 3 - 4 times. He told me he would be around all weekend to work on his bike - it has a blown head gasket seal. He told me he would see me tomorrow.<P>There were 2 Christmas presents on the seat. I asked who they were for. He said the grandkids. LB#3 - I asked what they were and he said books. I asked him if HE bought them and he said yes. I asked if he bought them all by himself and he said MOSTLY. And I grimaced, again.<P>I didn't ask anything about us or OW or anything else. <P>He seemed really happy to see me - like he really missed me. He was anxious to know what I had been doing since he last saw me - asked me four times - maybe a little worried?? He was really nice. <P>But, we did not talk about "us" or counseling with Steve Harley - it just didn't "feel" right today to bring anything up although Steve wants my H to call him.<P>So, how did I do?<P>ALSO, a question for K , Distressed and Nonplussed - you guys have deep insight into our situations. What do you think about mine and my H's, if you are familiar with our story?<P>Desiree <BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<P>You did great!! Absolutely fantastic. I don't think your remark about his new earrings is a LB. It just showed you were really checkin him out. And, I don't think the other two things you mentioned are bad, either. No mention of OW, the relationship, counseling! Good job. You made him feel at ease. Rubbed his back. Nice touch. He's coming back tomorrow. I think you deserve an A+.

sidney,<P>You know how hard it is for me to keep my mouth shut!!! I thought I might explode, but I keep thinking about how all the things I would say would MESS UP my hard work, so I avoided them as best I could.<P>I also acted very friendly and relaxed...not moping, not depressed, not horny...just friendly! Thanks to you, sidney, for the pointers!!! <P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

See, you didn't even need that roll of duct tape!! It's all in the attitude!

sidney,<P>Well don't hide the duct tape just yet...I've got the rest of the week to screw up!!!!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<P>It's hard as hell keeping the ole' mouth shut isn't it?<P>Try not to sweat the LBs too much, from what you said they seem minor. Try to avoid them in the future.<P>It does sound like he was checking you out pretty good. He ought to your a beautiful ladie and he knows what he's missing.<P>Good job on the neck rub. If he's any bit interested those tender touches get the juices flowing.<P>Exellent job on avoiding all talk about the current situations. That is the hardest one of all.<P>When do you go to the keys?<P>Are you any good at wrenching on bikes? That would be some A+ liesure time. Get your hands dirty, hand him the tools, ask good questions, be there if he needs an extra set of hands, feed him beers and when he starts to get tipsy, jump his... wait that might not be such a great idea. Wait until the works done then take advatage of him...lol<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Bill,<P>You are in RARE form tonight! Too many Shirleys last night for you, buster! <P>I go to the Keys 1/25-28 or 29, whatever that Saturday is. I will be at Sloppy Joes every night, probably, having one for Poppa! Reading "At First Light" right now to get in the mood. It is so very little of Hemingway...must be his son, Patrick...not very good writing style. I recently read "Green Hills of Africa" and that is what this new book should be like. Really, this is a continuation of the African trip.<P>Anyway, yeah, the juices were flowing...at least for me. This all frustrates the HELL out of me! Celibacy sucks! <P>No, I can not work on the bikes. BUT, a couple weeks ago I decided to put a new battery in my bike, so I went to the Honda store, bought a bettery and my girlfriend and I installed it all by ourselves and it worked! I crank the bike up every week when I'm not riding to keep it ready. I was hoping to ride this weekend, but may be too cold. I am going to go and shoot this weekend, come hell or high water. Even if I have to go by myself. You inspired me... <P>One more note in the litany of my life: Guy that H lives with called me a bit ago to thank me for the Christmas gifts I sent him and to see how I was doing. He talked quite a while. Then, his girlfriend got ont the phone and told me the OW is DOG UGLY!!! She said they had a couple other people from the motorcycle club over for Christmas, besides my H and the OW, and the talk among the club memebers and wives is how they couldn't believe my H had traded me for HER - she was AWFUL and they all think I am so nice and pretty!!!!!!<P>TeeHee- I felt good all day, and now I am on CLOUD NINE!! <P>Desiree<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Des,<P>I'm no hunk, in fact I weigh about 150 wringing wet fully dressed, however I am far from ugly.<P>LRB is a giant <B>leap</B> downward. I'd love to hear her try and talk politics or current events w/him, never mind literature.<BR>She might could get a stirring debate about Scooby-Doo episodes out of him...lol<P>I get a huge satisfaction knowing he has acne and cavity ridden incisors...HAHAHA<P>She has to buy his cigarettes...HAHAHA<P><BR>Wait...He can get into an R rated movie now...HAHAHA<P>Fantacy Love Is Really Blind.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Bill,<P>This is a hoot!!HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!LOL!!!!!<P>Do you think LRB really remembers Scooby? He might be too young! HAHAHAHA!!!!!<P>Also, how can R respect that little weasel?? If you have to get your date's cigarettes, tickets in the movie theater, beer, etc. - how could that possibly be any fun??<P>If R wants to babysit...she can come home and mother Abbey full-time, again. <P>Somebody has this thread about the wayward S's not feeling deserving of us because their self-esteem is so low, etc. I really wonder if this is true, because I feel my H "traded down", too. He and I actually discussed this. He was concerned about her credit card debt and mentioned her lack of looks to me, S and others before they met her, so it must have bothered him.<P>Having a W that looks really good is a priority for my H -one of his highest emotional needs. I fit the bill and she DOESN'T!!!! I know it already bothers him. It's gonna start REALLY bothering him when the bubble bursts!!!!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I dunno what it is ... I'd say that the vast majority of people that have affairs really do "trade down"! I'm not exactly a beauty queen, but h@ll - I'm WAY better than the slug (that's why I call her that - fat, ugly, lazy, stupid and unmotivated - and sickly grayish white colored). I have more than half a brain - her 1/4 is probably mostly burnt from her years of partying (isn't that the ONLY thing in life?) ... and she's truly crude and stupid. God is probably shaking his head at me right now ... But I am being HONEST, not mean.<P>I cannot fathom what happens in their brains - a major short circuit, perhaps?<P>Later, all!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Des, <P>You are probably right about Scooby, more like the Power Rangers or The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles....HAHAHA.<P>I'm not drinking tonight, ice water, I don't want to wake up w/ a big head two days in a row...lol<P>One of Robin EMs is an attractive spouce.<BR>So I grew my beard back, cut my hair like I had it when we first met, and when ever I' know I'm going to see her I dress to kill. You know paint the old barn.<P>Then she goes and sees doololly, he likes to ware his pants hanging down to his knees w/his drawers hanging out. and if you could only hear him talk... Do you remember Jeff Spicoli from Fast Times At Ridgemont High? LRB talks like a retarde uncool Spicoli...<P>Why is it that so many waywards trade down?<P>It kind of hurt my feelings that she didn't trade up. I would.<P>That should be one clue that it's only temporary.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

terri,<P>Maybe it really does go with the low self-esteem theory. I guessed my H's emotional needs: Admiration/conversation, good looking S, recreational, financial and sex - not necessarily in this order. We discussed these. <P>Right now, H willnot let me fill sex, admiration, conversation and recreational. We are still co-joined financially, although we have separate checking accts. Everything else is intact and I have offered on more than one occasion to spearate assests and he says no. I am much better looking.<P>So, the thing here is this: CAN I fulfillhis needs for admiration, conversation and sex??? Well, what do YOU think??? Of course I can. I have and I would be doing so now. But, He FIRED me and took my job away and gave it to this OW. He is ounishing me because I had that stupid EA. It has hurt him and his pride so much.<P>I WAS WRONG. I WAS WRONG. IWAS WRONG. I WAS WRONG><P>I am ETERNALLY Sorry I ever hurt him. I let myslef get sucked in and didn't see it until OM wanted sex from me and I said NO. The whole thing was over from that point on. I have taken extraordinary precautions and there is NOTHING between us except occasional professional contact and ALWAYS with another person. I have offered over and over to leave my job. My family and my H come first.<P>Lord, send a stranger with a 2 x 4 to whack my H upside the head a thousand times to knock some sense into him, please????? <P>What would the world be like if no one EVER forgave anyone for making a mistake????<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Sorry, double post<p>[This message has been edited by Mitzi (edited January 04, 2000).]

My H definately traded down!! His OW is about 10 yrs. older than him. She looks like she was rode hard and put away wet. I'm not exactly gorgeous, but after 3 kids, I'm almost the same size I was before I had them. Not too shabby. Of course, H and his thing helped me lose 15 lbs in the last 2 and 1/2 weeks. Someone told me here that it is the great "Infidelity Diet"

Bill,<P>I do not know this Jeff charachter - I am not a TV person, but I can just imagine the way LRB looks and talks!!!!!!!<P>Like..DUH...and...Yo....and....Huh???? With his pants all falling down and underwear showing!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! REALLY looks like an idiot!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!<P>So I wanna know a couple things - you still got that beard???? And maybe a little longish hair????? Youza......!!!!<P>Lord, please send <B>2</B> strangers with 2 x 4's to whack my H and Bill's W in the head a thousand times to knock some sense into them. Amen.<P>Yes, these are "transition people" for sure. The true question is this: are our S's ever coming home before it is too late???????<P>Desiree <P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Mitzi,<P>Yeah, the ole Infidelity Diet can really work wonders. Just about everybody here lost alot of weight and really fast, too. I went from 127 of muscle to 100 and no muscle to speak of any more. The weight just kept falling off. I have put a few back on and look better, but am still too thin. In time, I will get back to a more reasonable weight.<P>Your H went for the Older chick, huh??? My H has a friend who went for an older chick. It didn't last. It always secretly bothered him that she was older. She got in her early 40's and he was mid 30's and her age started to show a little bit. She was still a very good looking woman, but he wanted someone that looked YOUNGER, so the divorce is just recently final. <P>I always knew looks were important to most men, but I never realized HOW important until reading SAA. I did know, it is important to my H and I always kept myself up and dressed to make him proud and happy.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I got rid of my ling hair and pony tail years ago.<P>It's one of them preppy bowl cuts.<P>I just don't get how this fine woman, she'a about a 9, could fall for a derilect slug LRB!!!<P>I guess ours is not to reason why but to luagh uncontrolably at their choice...<P><BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

RMA:<P>First off, I think you did really well. He seems to be interested in you. In this situation, when they've got some interest but are uncommitted, it is critical to avoid any kind of pressure. You never want to bring up OR, OW, or the future. On the trip to Key West, as Harley advises, I think you need to "lay it at his feet" and not push. You mentioned it, he knows, now never mention it again.<P>Regarding the "trading down", my husband has done that too, in a very extreme way. I've spoken alot about our spouses in other messages, but I suspect there may also be commonality amongst the betrayed personalities too, that affects the selection of OP. I know for me, I am very educated, prepared, demanding, direct, and competent - traits that make me successful in the business world but can be tough in a relationship with a man. It's hard for them to feel ADMIRED, usually one of the top emotional needs for men.<P>So, my thinking is that often the selection of OW is a trade-down to try to meet a need that hadn't been met before. I doubt this is at a conscious level (who would deliberately pick someone inferior just so they would be superior), but I think it's a large part of the attraction. Now, my husband is the smart one, the successful one, the rich one, the worldly one, etc. I have no doubt that self-esteem is the key issue in my situation.<P>I'm on an out of the country business trip and had plenty of airplane time yesterday so I read another book (that brings it close to 40 now, many read 5+ times - see what I mean about overwhelmingly prepared). It was John Gray's Mars and Venus on a Date (I keep hovering around this idea of getting the divorce going but I can't seem to follow through). Anyway, more insights into our situations. Gray is very clear that you CANNOT successfully date until you have processed the previous relationship. He analogized dating to shooting arrows at a bullseye. In order to find the right person, you have to look objectively at the last one, see what didn't work with you and with them, refine your aim (a little to the left, a little to the right, whatever) and shoot again. Obviously, to do this well, you have to be able to really look at what happened with reasonable accuracy. He said when relationships end with either guilt or resentment, it is impossible to be objective about the situation and the aim is not enhanced. Instead, people seek out others who will help lessen their pain. So the selection of OW is NOT about her being wonderful, or a soulmate, but rather as a way to fill the emptiness or remove the depression. I've thought this many times, but I've never seen it written quite like this.<P>So again, I think that men who select OW's based on this criteria ("how can she fix my pain instead" of "she would really add to my life because ...", are in for big trouble. They were'nt chosen with thought so it's probably not a good match.<P>Furthermore, as I mentioned on AD's thread yesterday, these guys have done the complete OPPOSITE of looking at themselves, realizing the mistakes of the marriage, accepting their errors, and making critical changes. THEY HAVE RUN FROM THEMSELVES AND NEVER LOOKED INWARD. So, you have a bad combination here. You've got a poor choice of OW combined with an undeveloped, unimproved, non-introspective spouse. I cannot see this working out with happiness in the long run. But the long run could be VERY LONG with someone that is so much in denial. It could even be after they marry.<P>In your case, it's encouraging that he's showing signs that he wants to be with you. All you can do is be the best RMA you can, don't lovebust, don't talk about OW or OR or the future, and never put any kind of pressure on him. It's a big waiting game. If you're attractive to him, when the OR blows up, he'll come back. But like the rest of us, my opinion is that your fate is dependent on what happens with their relationship, not what you personally do. You can't make him break-up with her. They've got to blow-up that relationship themselves, or some major external event needs to bring one or both of them to their knees so they hit rock bottom. So my advice to you is to do whatever you can, with the comments I made above, that allows you to maximize your wait time. If you can wait a long time while doing the true Plan A (the needs meeting variety), that's fine. If not, there's nothing wrong with staying away from him, as long as it's still done lovingly and with no lovebusters (Plan B or a variation of DB Last Resort).<P>One other comment from the John Gray book. He made a big point of how women are more attractive to men when they think of the relationship as "dessert". In other words, they have a full and active life and they invite the men to be a part of it. This is much more appealing than when they have an empty life and are reaching out to a man to "fill them up". It's really a bit like the comment I made about the selection of the OW. So, to us all, build yourself a good life. To me that's a win-win strategy. If your husband comes back, you get the dessert. If he doesn't, you've still had a great meal and can look elsewhere for dessert. It's the emptiness and neediness feeling that needs to be avoided.<P>Best of luck.

Hi RMA and Everyone....<P>Distressed - I think that you are so right with all you have said here....<P>In my situation it covers both the trading down and the running......<P>I think that most betrayers are just looking at the NEED being filled (whatever that may be) and the OP just happened to be the first or best fulfiller of that particular need!!<P>The OW and other laydies my H was/is with are nothing like me as far as I know. He was in escape from responsibility and have fun and party time mode - so that is what he found!! A person (persons) who accept that with no thought of right, wrong, morals, obligations, etc. <P>He's definitely NOT with someone who is anywhere near the ballpark I am in as far as who I am. I think that he recognized that I would not FIT into this new world he was in...the cops, partyers, immorals, selfishness.....just never grouped me in there and to this day, keeps me completely separate from it....not only physically but in his mind also!!!<P>Wants me around for an occassional grounding though, I think!!!!<P>So sad......<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Desiree - Man, are YOU being a good girl!! <P>I'm so proud.<P>Well, you're starting to master Plan A (minimum LB, no problem). On to that stupid "patience" thing.<P>He's noticing. Lots and lots of stuff. And your great attitude has GOT to one of those things. But, 2X4 or not, it takes a long, LONG time to sink in. And then, once it sinks in, even longer for them to believe it. And then, they need to TRUST it! Growing old with me yet!!!!<P>Hang in there. You're doing great. Time and what you're doing is all you'll need. Of course he traded down. So you've got the upper hand. Just be patient.<P>Thinking of you.<P>Lori