I've been mostly posting replies lately, now let me ask something.<P>Last night my h came home very discouraged about his job, he got caught in the middle of some of the stupid politics. He's great as a salesman and mentoring people, but neither of us are real good at the politics.<P>I've always joked that he has only two speeds, going all out or lying comatose. Nothing in between. The job has been a problem for a long time because it requires heavy travel (easy to have affairs), and is so hard to juggle that even when he's off, he's giving it time and energy.<P>So last night he says he wants to quit and work at a local retail store. That would cut our income down to about one fourth of what it now is. I stayed calm and heard him out, but what mixed feelings I had!! I felt for him seeing him so down. I also asked myself if I want to go through all this with him after all that has happened. That's scary, I used to be the most loyal person in the world. But scaling down one's lifestyle is not easy even in a strong relationship with a lot of trust.<P>Just last week he wanted to shop for a BMW (that we can't afford) so we went by the dealer on one of our "dates". The week before he was all gungho about his job. The week before that we were going to switch jobs and move to Spain. Can someone tell me what is going on?? Is this the famous midlife crisis?? BTW, now it seems that was more the reason for the EMAs. I started going back in my mind to how good we were doing last summer, and it just didn't add up that I was not meeting his needs, etc. Of course, it is all these things, not just one. But he said he needed to feel alive. We spent months in the spring choosing a beachfront condo though I'm happy out here in the 'burbs. We also invested a lot of money into starting a business that he never made an effort for, even though it was his idea.<P>Like most women, I crave some stability, please, someone, is there an end to all this. I've often thought the only solution is to marry someone "normal" next time.

Sounds like it could be a mid life crisis. It also sounds like he needs to feel he has options. Although his thoughts are incongruent, he doesn't seem to following through in any direction consistantly. That is why he may just need to feel he has options rather than needed to act on them.<P>My H can be the same way sometimes. Instead of pointing out the obvious flaws in his thinking...try to just listen and make him feel heard. Given a little space he will probibly stop himself from making bad decisions. If he really is on the brink of a life altering decision, step in at that point. Otherwise think "this too will pass."<P>And is anyone really normal?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

If it is male midlife crisis, my husband has had at least 4 in the last 10 years. He's only 40 now. LOL<P>My husband did that. We both identified it, and saw it very evident in his father, as well. We gave it a name - "Hopping around like a dog in the snow". Now my husband does this with things like investments - stocks, business, etc.... and it isn't affecting our life like his flopping used to do. <P>My husband has always been someone who needs change, and is always "searching". I know what he really needs (the Lord), but that isn't for me to cram down his throat.<P>My best suggestion to you, is to support him on whatever he decides - and maybe he's just throwing out ideas to see if you would support him. <P>My husband always says that behind a good man is a good woman..... basically - what he meant was - that he was looking for affirmation and support, no matter what hairbrained idea he gets at the moment.<P>tnt

Hi,<BR>that's a difficult one.<BR>I rememebr I used to say that I prefered to have less money instead of more if that meant that H had to be away for periods of time or even just a different schedule than mine. However that's were we are now, and we're surviving.<BR>I'm not sure, i guess it depends if cutting down on your income that much will create not lifestyle problems but reall problems like having bills you can't pay and stuff like that. My H was laid off twice in the last 8 years, right after my kids were born and after we bought our house. His income went down to less than 1/3 of what it was. Financial problems were the cause for a lot of the things that happened. But in our case it did afect, we had bills unpaid for ages, had people calling, sometimes had trouble getting all the food we needed at the time we needed it.When he was laid of the first time, we had to adjust only in terms of lifestyle, and it didn't affect that much, it was when we were arguing because he had a haircut while I needed money to buy milk for the kids and there was nothing in the bank that things got kind of bad.<BR>SO I guess you should think in terms of what will that cut in income bring to you. If it's just a lifestyle adjustment, it might be o.k., if it involves more than that, than think carefully.<BR>In relation to MLC, I think a lot of what happened with my H had to do with that as well, a friend of his had just died, his father had his third heart attack, he was thinking back and feeling he just wanted to feel alive, just like yours.<BR>ANyway, I probably confused things as usuall and it probably won't be much help, but I tried <BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Thanks for the quick replies,<P>FHL - you're right, I want some stability, but I'm far from rigid. He really does have a lot of options, but maybe feels that he doesn't.<P>trust - mine has the Lord and yet he is still searching. Funny that Sunday the discussion was on godliness with contentment. But that still doesn't answer how you make decisions on issues that are not immoral. If you can have more without giving up time with family, etc. should you just say no? Or is it a pipe dream?<P>Kat - you didn't confuse it, thanks. We have never carried debt, so I think paying the bills would not be the issue. Since it would be planned, we could even sell our house if necessary. But it's not just a money issue. He tried once before to switch jobs to one where he wasn't "out there" making deals happen and he was MISERABLE. Mr. mom, he's not. He's a type A personality, driven man. Don't want to ask for new probs.

oops

trust - I forgot before but wanted to ask. When you say to support him in whatever he decides - doesn't that go against the rule of enthusiastic agreement??? I believe that is a large part of what got us into this mess. I would go along with his decisions like taking a job that required a lot of travel. Jenn Harley says we have to enthusiastically agree on everything. So I think there is a difference between hearing him and letting him know there are options and letting him do what he wants.

Anyone else with ideas? I'm sure someone else is going or has gone through something like this...

I don't know, has he been a person that changes jobs constantly?<BR>I know I wouldn't want to be on a job that was depressing me ( that's actually why I'm thinking about moving on myself), but could it be that he was just temporarily upset by something at work and will be able to work it out and stay there, and was just venting?<BR>Did he talk about it today as well or seems to have forgotten?<BR>Maybe you should just wait and see.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat

Thanks again Kat1 for the encouragement. Actually he was very down all day, but by evening was back to his old self. You're right about work that's not enjoyable. My last job was awful, and I could never wish that on anybody.

Skizzo, someday I might post a new thread about this, if you don't beat me to it <P>I was just thinking about the policy of joint agreement this morning. And I picked up the book I am reading slowly, How One of You can Bring the Two of You Together...and I read something that directly conflicted with the POJA. So I have been mulling it over today.<P>If my H and I didn't do anything without the other doing handsprings...I'm afraid neither of us would move forward with anything. I can be supportive, I can be accepting, I can be understanding while my H lives his life, but I don't know how I could be down right enthusiastic about everything his does unless I was his clone.<P>And if he is not to do anything that I am less than enthusiastic about, then what about his particular passions? They would have to be sacrificed which would lead to dissatisfaction or resentment. Like his skiing. <P>I like to ski...sometimes...but I'm not passionate about it. Am I really pleased that I do not see my H most of the winter when he is on the slopes. He is teaching the kids, but most years we had one too young to keep up for the most part...so I would stay home or hang in the lodge with crayons. Not a heaping whole lot of fun for me, but sometime I am ready to do when it means sooo much to my H. But wouldn't this be a violation of POJA?<P>Got to go...just interesting to think about.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL, I think I understand the POJA, it's the negotiating that is difficult.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can be understanding while my H lives his life, but I don't know how I could be down right enthusiastic about everything his does unless I was his clone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's the point, we now live OUR lives. If he wants something, we're supposed to negotiate and brainstorm until both are enthusiastic. The principles are covered in Recovering from an Affair.<P>The ski example brings up another point, though. If recreational companionship is high on his list as a need, you need to find hobbies that you both can really enjoy together. The time he spends on the slopes without you is a lost opportunity for something done together.

True, but he loved to ski before we got married alone with a bunch of other adventurous activities. Before kids they were exciting and neat and I had time to tag along. Now that my life is full of kids and schedules and time is short, he stuff is still neat, but it is not my passion.<P>But I don't want to take his passion away from him. That hardly sounds fair. It is not like I didn't know about it.<P>So I guess I shouldn't have married him if your look at it from the POJA standpoint, but I don't believe that either. We are good together. Actually we are great life partners...are biggest gulf is recreational companionship...which is huge for him. He doesn't care so much that I am on the fringe of it, although he'd like me to be more ivolved, but he'd care alot if I ask him to give it up...it would be like giving part of himself up. It just doesn't seem right.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Kids bring incredible changes none of us are prepared for. Yeah, in our case we are both very adventurous, but haven't found a way to satisfy it; can't leave the kids enough, etc. But then do make sure you get as much time with him without the kids as you can. It sounds like you do enjoy it, so get out there as much as you can. Harley says to spend 15 hours/wk as a couple. I can think of worse ways to spend some of it than on the slopes!<P>I live near the ocean, not the slopes, so I've only dreamed of skiing in recent years. Twice I tried on trips up north and the kids got sick at the last minute. Oh well...

schizzo,<BR>About six years ago my H talked me into giving up our jobs, selling our house, moving hundreds of miles to a new state, and going into farming fulltime. Although it theory it was great, financially we ended up much worse off. I don't know which was the bigger mistake - moving there, or moving back, since his depression started soon after we got back. He was happier there. Interestingly, before we moved there, he was having a lot of problems with stress-induced heartburn. While we were there, it almost disappeared, but I was having stress-induced heartburn. <P>If I had it to do over again, I don't know what I would have done. Saying he wants a less stressful job is great, but financial stress can be even worse.

FHL,<BR>I see so many mothers sitting on the sidelines, taking care of the kids, while their husband more or less continues his pre-marital or pre-kid activities like the kids don't exist. I'm sure there were lots of activities you gave up when you had kids. What about him?<P>I'm really sorry. I'd rather be divorced than be a ski, surf, golf, or work widow. There is a couple I know. She stays home all day, he is a lawyer. One of my guy friends thinks he is so great because he took a less challenging job so that he could spend more time with his son. Ok, that is cool, but the last time I was there, though, it seemed like all he did was train for triathalons without his wife on the weekends. As he and my friend rode off on their bikes, all she could say was "I wish I could go with him, but I need to take care of the kids". Well gosh, how convenient for him. All he has to do is hold down a job? Where do I sign up? Forget looking for a new husband, maybe I need a wife!

In defense of my H, he is a wonderful father and tries to include the kids in all of his activities, even when it slows him down or really makes the activity more of a hassle than a good time. He is extremely patient and and excellent instructor. He is fully invested in their lives. Since sitting is not his style, he often helps coaches or coaches teams himself and tries never to miss a game or activity they have.<P>He also has the kids out changing the oil, rotating the tire, winterizing the boat and even patching the roof. <P>We have three girls.<P>Although we have been married 17 years, when you take out the years that I was either pregnant or had a child under three or that he was going to school (while working full time to get his Masters and living across the state part time), there are not many years left that I was available for adventurous recreation. Do admittedly there was a quandry. One one hand he wanted us to do fun things as a family...including me. On the other hand we hated to leave a little one, especially when I used to work full time and time was limited. So yes, it looks like he was having more fun, but it really was a matter of doing the best we could given the situation.<P>Recreation has always been his top priority. I thought what he did was neat and exciting. When we married at 23, I also probably thought he would grow out of it. Guess I didn't have Dr. Harley's book, huh?<P>Anyway, over the years I realized this was essense of life stuff for him. Although he had always had a great job and worked hard to further his education, he defined himself or achieved his greatest satisfaction from what he did recreationally. He just does. I don't. Could I meet this man's needs or even claim I love him if I kept him from what he does best...especially when he seeks to include rather than go off and do his own thing?<P>To be honest, I am more content at whatever circumstance I'm in than he is. Maybe I'm just low maintainence or maybe I define myself by who I am inwardly and how that influences my primary relationships and since I take myself along everywhere, it works out.<P>When you look at recreation alone, it looks a little dicey because although I'm a good sport and enjoy most things in moderation, I am not as athletic or fearless as the rest of my family. I kind of like the bones I was born with and want to keep them intact.<P>However, when you look at our partnership in it's totality, especially when you look at us as a parents, we compliment each other and bring different skills into the relationship.<P>Do we need each other? Not technically, we are both self sufficient enough to be on our own, but together we do make something bigger than the sum of our parts. And as the years go on we fell into more traditional roles to accomplish that.<P>We started out with very equal views of our roles...and I think we still value them equally. But as it played out, my H was in a better position to provide and I was better equipted to manage our life in general. Besides the providing about 80% of our income he leads us recreationally, takes care of the cars and the yard....not because he's a man, but he is best at those things.<P>I am far more flexible, so I do most of the kid transportation, housework (and sadly I'm no Martha Steward), laundry, cooking, scheduling, social stuff, pay all the bills and do all the taxes and help with the homework. More importantly I tend to most of the kids emotioanl needs which my H would be as clueless at as I would be rebuilding the carborator.<P>And it works because we value our roles equally. Although it would look like my H has the power or control, that is not really true at all within the relationship. If our set of individual gifts had been different or our set of circumstances, we would be open to do things differently. We just happened to turn out somewhat traditionally. Some of it may have been from nuture, but in our case I think the majority was practical and more our natural strengths.<P>So don't feel sorry for me, my life is blessed and charmed. However, given everything two people are and everything that needs to be done, I don't know how they can enthusiastically agree on everything unless they are clones. <P>That doesn't mean they can not be happy and make it work in the larger picture.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hey FHL, we're about the same age (23+17), I'm 38. But I'm going on 9 years of marriage. We also looked at our own strengths and planned the "traditional" roles. The hardest part was that when we were planning, I was making over twice what he did. He was still at entry level.<P>But I had 12 years of pursuing a career and maybe that is why I am very content in my current role.<P>TS - I think your comment of the h just bringing home the check is unfair. There's another side to the coin. He came home late, and left early and is facing some big problems at work today. I got the kids off to school, went to the gym, and I'm home writing this note. My time is mostly my own. It's more how each couple chooses to set it up. I was so stupid before all this. I refused to hire someone to help clean, and refused to put the kids in school. I thought I was not doing my job if I wasn't mom 24 by 7. And I scrimped on everything, did not by myself any clothes...None of this pressure came from him, he often suggested I get help, don't know why I wanted to be the martyr.

FHL,<P>I responded to TS on another thread and did a poor job of trying to convey exactly what you have said. I must tell you that you really have a wonderful way of expressing these things. <P>I don't think TS gets it. You cannot look at one aspect of peoples lives and get the complete picture. Further, most peoples marriages are attempts to accomodate what both spouses want out of their life.<P>I really wish I could state this as eloquently as you have in this post. Maybe just maybe, TS will figure out men and women's purpose in all of this is not to compete but compliment on another.<P>When she responds to my post, I'll send her back here to read this. You did a much better job than I did at trying to get her to see that life is not a mathematical equation and equality is a purely mathematical concept.<P>You are very very good .<P>JL

Why Thank You, JL, from you that is a real compliment! I admire how you think.<P>So tell me, if you can, given the dynamics of my particular situation, if the POJA just can't work 100% for me (which is OK because I am doing just fine) or if I'm not looking at it correctly.<P>Oh and The Student, if you read this, believe me when you are 17 years "in the trenches" things look a bit different that looking at family life from a vantage point of youth and inexperience. I changed my viewpoint on many things these past 17 years!<BR>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited January 08, 2000).]