FHL,<BR>You say you got married at 23, that makes you 40 now? You are only 5 yrs older than me I know the school thing throws alot of people off... Maybe my attitude sounds young and inexperienced. <P>Yes, I know nothing about raising children. All I know is what I see in most families, and I don't like it. You sound like you are very happy. I'm very glad your H participates fully in raising your children. I don't see alot of that, really. Or I see that they are doing mainly the "fun" stuff, like playing sports with them, etc, and not doing the more difficult stuff, like tending to their emotional needs. You two seemed to have struck a balance, and that is good. I'm also very glad to see that you and your H are giving your girls lots of "options" as far as interests go. <P>JL,<BR>I understand that marriage is not about competition, that it is about partnership. I thought my ex and I made a good team. We each had parts we complimented each other on, but they didn't tend to fall along traditional lines. The reason I get so bent about my ex not supporting me for my education and the reason it may seem like I am competing, is because I believe that is the reason why HE couldn't support me. I wasn't competing with HIM, but I do think he felt like I was trying to "out do" him by getting a PhD. He didn't have a problem with me getting a Master's (he had one). I supported him when he was getting his. I expected the same in return. That is all. I also think he felt I was snubbing his school of choice because I wanted to come here, rather than stay where we were and go where he went to school. I couldn't have cared less where he went to school, but I was damned sure *I* was not going to waste my efforts going somewhere that didn't have the program I wanted. After much investigation, there were only about 5 schools in the country that had the program I was looking for. I chose the place (yes, I, because he told me he didn't want to be a part of it) where he would have the easiest time finding a job. Every step of the way, I tried to involve him. Before we ever came up here, I told him "I don't want to do it without you", and "I won't go if it means this much to you". Even after I came up, I offered to quit rather than lose my marriage. Does this sound like a person who is putting their education over their marriage? Yes, it was important to me, but it certainly wasn't the only thing that was important to me. My marriage was more important to me. The only time I finally chose my education over him was after his crap for a year, his refusal to go to counseling, then he wants me to quit for a couple of years to work on the marriage. I said ok to putting the education on the back burner, but said that I definately wanted to pick it up after a couple of years. Ah HAH!! After much discussion, I discovered that he really didn't intend for me to go back to school in a couple of years. He saw no reason for me to ever get my PhD. HIS WORDS!! I even asked him "is there ANYTHING I can do to make this ok with you?" he said NO. so, JL, my choice was a) quit school and live with self-centered abusive man who doesn't give a flying-*uck about my goals and never did if it inconvenienced him in the slightest or b) choose to stay in school and let him decide what to do about it. I chose b) obviously.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

The Student,<BR>I really think your H did you a favor and you are better off that limping along in that marriage.<P>By the way, my H may start his PhD in a few months. <P>And when I grow up some day, I'm going to be an Artist...just watch me <P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

TheStudent,<P>In all of this you leave out one thing. He was moving, he was coming to support you and he did do all that he promised. He may have not been enthusiastic but he was doing it. Where did it fall apart? It fell apart with your affair.<P>I am not condemning you here, but all that was said to you was post affair. I am not saying he didn't feel this way before the affair but appears to have been willing to "suck it up" and go with your plans until he found out. Then came the reality check and he felt that your plans did not match his.<P>TS it would seem he made the right decision. FHL is right. For your goals in life, he was not the right match especially following the affair. Why be bitter know? You say yourself you are better off without him? You did not do all you could do to make everything work, because if you had the affair would not have occured. Of course, he let you pick the Univ. of your choice. How could he have done anything else? Finally, to repond to other thread, his wants and goals and life do not make him "common", any more than yours make you a "common" women.<P>Finally, it does seem that you had only a choice of A or B, but that was after you had made your choice about your marriage a)be faithful or b) not be faithful. It seems to me TS you have been in control of this whole situation from the beginning and, while offering your exH some choices to make with regard to which school to attend, you were in the drivers seat the whole time. <P>You just had an accident and drove into the ditch once. It happens and people recover and move on in their own way. Why be angry about this?<P>FHL<P>I don't know how to respond to your question. It seems to me you have it so together, that I couldn't possibly have anything useful to say. If you think differently, I will do my best. <P>I read your posts every time I find one, because I learn so much from you.<P>God Bless All of You<P>JL<P>P.S. I am learning a lot from you too, TS.

Schizzo,<P>I don't think that being supportive means agreeing with our spouse even when they are about to make a disastrous decision. You are listening to him and valuing his concerns. He is given a chance to vent his frustrations from work with someone who doesn't tell him he's having a midlife crisis or that he is nuts. Also, you give him a chance to dream (beach house) and to explore alternatives (changing jobs/ careers). That may be just the outlet he needs for his frustrations and fears. <P>Sometimes it's just good to fantacize about different options in life with someone who doesn't feel threatened. My husband and I do that a lot although we rarely do buy the beach house, new boat, etc. <P>If he really is overly stressed in his job, it may help to have you listen and brainstorm over alternatives until a more realistic doable solution comes along.<P>Keep up the good work.

JL,<BR>All that I've *told* you is post-affair, not all that he said before hand. I felt like I was being punished for even THINKING about going back to school. Problem was, I thought I deserved more than just him "sucking it up" after all I had done to support his goals. When we got married, I got a job near where he worked and where he was planning on going to school to get his Master's. When that job became too stressful and time consuming, I took a less stressful (and more boring) job in order to spend more time with him. He went to school at night for about 4 years during that time. I supported him through all of that. He said we could move after he worked at his current job for another two years. We did that. My affair happened because I was so throughly, incredibly depressed that I had let this happen to me AGAIN. Again I had supported some guy, only to find out later it wasn't going to happen in return. Or if it did, I was going to catch alot of hell in the process. When I got married, I thought I had entered a partnership. It was only years down the road after I called his "bluff" that I realized I hadn't. In my frustration and sadness, I turned to someone else, and yes, made things worse. Before the affair, all I could think of was the years I had wasted supporting my H (now ex). The years I had pushed off MY goals because I believed in our partnership, and because I had truly trusted that he would gladly support me after I had supported him and conditions were right for me to go back to school. Not just "suck it up". He knew what my goals were BEFORE we got married, and he married me anyway? Why? Did he think he was going to change me or something? Maybe he just changed HIS goals. That is why I'm mad and why I'll never marry again. <P>All of this stuff is really just garbage, as you've said. You asked me what I'm angry about and I'm angry at myself for getting married in the first place. All the other junk is just stuff that happened after those facts. Won't happen again...<P>I don't even know why I keep coming here. I'm not married anymore and have no intentions of doing so. I'll bet you a million bucks my ex and the OM aren't torturing themselves like I am. <P>This place (website) has become a bad addiction I need to rid myself of. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

Wesse - thank-you for your kind words. Some people are just more restless. I do see my main role as being a sounding board, though now that I understand the POJA, I will probably step in sooner in the future.<P>We actually put money on the beach house (which we were able to get back) and lost a lot of money on the business idea. The job, I guess like the healing we are all seeking, seems to be a waiting game right now to see how it plays out.<P>TS - you sound frustrated. This thread went on without me as I wasn't able to break away all day. Obviously, we don't agree on a lot of things, but I find it helpful to parry ideas this way with other intelligent people. But there are days that MB gets to me, and if it seems like a bad addiction right now, maybe you should take a break. I would miss you, though.<P>FHL - how long does the ambivalence about going on in the marriage last? I've read in some posts the comment that some alien has taken our dear h's over. Mine is completely back and has told me he's here for life, no more infidelity. But I keep wondering if the hurt really will heal. I say I still don't know if we're going to make it. I know my ambivalence is hurting him and I don't want to be this way.

FHL and Schizzo,<P>I just wanted to apologize for some of the things I've said. Without pulling out everything, I recognize that some things I've said may come off as condescending towards you two because I've made different choices in my life i.e. career vs. staying at home. Truth be told, I'm a little envious of you both. Yes, envious. Envious that you both have had the courage to trust your husbands enough to let them support you financially. That is a tough one for me. I'm envious that you have a family and children. That is what my anger and gripping is about alot of the time. <P>So, thank you both for being patient with me.<BR>FHL, I'm going to see if I can buy the forgiveness workbook too...

Of course when you make a choice you are always a little tempted to elevate your own choice in an attempt to convince yourself you are not missing out on what you did not choose.<P>Every choice, comes with its own sets of pros and cons. It is just sifting through them to see what is right for us or sometimes just choosing one if the choices are equal and then grieving a bit for the path we did not choose as we move ahead on the road we did choose.<P>I am sorry to say I didn't as much make choices as deal with things as they came in my life. Although this worked well for me, I believe by the Grace of God, I hope to teach my own girls to think out their choices a little more carefully.<P>I graduated with a degree in Advertising in the middle of recession, pretty much forcing me to take a job in retail. I then got married and moved to a small town with a degree in Avertising. Oh, well...that pretty much took care of my career. I have had great jobs for the area, mostly sales, and worked full time and part time.<P>My H work is in a nuclear plant...which are usually not near cities, so moving wouldn't help much.<P>I have to say that for every time it looked like I gave something up by outside standards, I was always blessed with gain in my life.<P>Yup, my H supports me financially. If you would make that statement to him, I bet it would take him by surprise. I don't think it has ever occured to think of it in that way. He has no more (and probibly less because I do all the financial management) power in the relationship because he makes more money.<P>It is difficult to be supportive as your spouse goes to school. Been there, done that and will do it again. But further down the road I believe it will give us more flexibility and me greater freedom to make choices in my own interest later in life.<P>The Student, I please give an update as you go through the Choosing To Forgive Workbook. I was surprised to find it really helped me with my life as a whole, not just the affair stuff...and I don't even have any baggage.<P>My e-mail address if you'd like it is faithhopelove2@go.com.<P>Schizzo (spelling, can't see the thread) us making it or not never really depended on me. I was committed to making it work, admittedly the kids had a huge role in that and it also helped when I finally believed the affair had not yet turned sexual, was short and was with stranger that could easily disappear once it was over. I also believe my H never thought about leaving the marriage and of course that helped.<P>We turned quite a few corners, and although our communication is better and we have are consciously trying to build a marriage better than ever, I think recovery had more to do with healing and internal growth more than anything my H did with the exception of ending it and being horrified by his own behavior.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<P>I thought some about your question. I don't think that Harley means that every one has to joyiously agree to eat dessert together or ski together. I think that that the POJA has to do with issues that are issues between the spouses. Compromises and accomadations are made in marriages all of the time. If it doesn't bother the spouse then there seems to me no reason for a big meeting. <P>It seems to me that you two have actually applied the POJA in that you realize that he needs recreation and you want him to take care of the kids and be a father. The skiing seems to meet both of your needs and is a good solution for you both. Now that you can ski with them or when you can ski with them, then you meet another Harley objective: Time together. Now I am not a Harley scholar as some on this board are, but it seems to me you are not in conflict with the POJA on this issue. Maybe others. If so talk with H and get it decided.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL

TheStudent,<P>I have responded to you at length. Just one observation. Actually several observations . One, the things your exH said after discovery should always be taken with a grain of salt because of his emotional state. Two, it would appear from your posts you resented helping your exH with his education as well. In another words you were "sucking it up" as well. And by the way "sucking it up" for the spouse does not mean they don't support you. It means that they are willing to sacrifice for you. Not a bad thing in the all an all.<P>TS I think you are getting a little wrapped around the axel here. What is coming out is that your education was a major source of conflict in your marriage and you were too young to be getting married given your personal goals. No crime in that. This hurdle will pass and you will be in a different place.<P>God Bless <P>JL

Hi JL,<BR>I only resent supporting him now that we are divorced. I had no problems supporting him before. I loved him and wanted to do whatever I could to help him be happy and reach his full potential. That is why I couldn't understand why he had such a hard time doing the same for me. It made me feel that he didn't really love me and didn't care about me reaching my full potential. That hurt a great deal.

FHL, I guess we always try to find comfort where we can. In my case there were two affairs: one from July '98 to Feb '99. It ended because there was sex, but no "feelings " on his part. He kept it all to himself. He was restless so the whole thing with the condo on the beach and starting a business became a new focus. He met a young girl in July '99 on an airplane. He travels to South America a lot anyway, but the trips suddenly were every two weeks. He had to take an extra flight each time as her hometown is not where he does business. I think this all added to the fantasy.<P>They met 5 times, each time spending the night talking and having sex. The last time he spent 4 days "living" with her. This was after I knew there was something wrong and was really loving him unconditionally (I guess that's doing plan A). That last trip hurts the worst because I begged him not to go. His trips were never over a weekend, but there were legitimate business problems.<P>So it was very sexual. I seem obsessed with how he could do it several times a night when he never has with me. And sex has been very good. Oddly enough, it seems to be the best thing that has come out of this. And he did think of leaving, treated me hatefully, etc. Did you read what I posted on Nellie's thread. I have never before felt like he hated me, and he doesn't now. I have forgiven as much as that is a volitional act, but I am still soooooo scared.<P>He told me he has been there for me the last two months, isn't that the way to rebuild trust? I don't know any other way, but I told him I thought about the 18 months, how each time he CHOSE to do what he did. How do I believe him just because he says he will never cheat on me again???

The pain has to run its course. I am convinced there is very little you can do to stop it...it almost has a life of its own. Accepting this and accepting that it is going to keep hurting for a while, might make you stop trying to make it stop by discussing it, micro managing...whatever. Consider the idea that you should stop picking at the scab and just let it heal on its own.<P>Instead, work on relationship skills, communication techniques and just loving each other. <P>You feel what you feel. However, if you are working toward recovery, you need to remember you are committed to working toward the feelings you want to have. <BR>I have a great deal of respect for all of you. Choosing your marriage takes courage for you and for your spouse. <BR>You may have had problems in your relationship before the infidelity, so the infidelity itself is not your only problem. It is, however a huge barrier to intimacy to both you and your spouse.<BR> <BR>When you decide to stay in the marriage, I believe you need to also commit to moving toward a forgiving spirit and moving toward actual rebuilding and recovery. That doesn't mean you instantly feel forgiving, or have the answers for recovery, it means you need to be willing to move toward that and conversely to move away from anything (bitterness, disrespect, lovebusting) that would impede recovery. Of course mistakes and a bit of back sliding on this roller coaster is to be expected, but in general you need to want to move forward (even at a snails pace) and needs to do the work necessary to actually move forward.<BR> <BR>When the betrayer, chooses to stay in the marriage, I believe thy need to commit to a spirit of reconcilliation and coversely move away from anything that inhibits it. They also feel what they feel, but they need to want to feel differently and do the hard work that will move toward feeling differently. <P>Those feelings you want are not just some elusive bubble that will just drift your way and pop on you. Those feelings are something you need to create...not overnight, but you need to keep wanting and keep working toward your goal. <P>You can learn to trust in time as long as you let go that you can make your H trustworthy. That's his job. <P>This post may seem a little disjointed because I cut and pasted a few things I have saved. But maybe it will give you something to think about.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Thank-you FHL. Let's see. The love busters are almost gone, unless sharing my down feelings is itself a love buster. I wonder - but I tell him this is what hurts, how I feel , without anger,etc.<P>And I am working on the plan to meet his needs better. For me, they were mostly quick fixes, makes me wonder why I didn't see it before. This whole mess was a big wake up call for me. During the EMA I had gotten to the point that he was only here to support us, no longer cared about him. Sad. I was angry for a long time about him being away so much.<P>So I'm definitely on the right track. It's just this. When he ended it, I thought if only it's really over and the slut doesn't try to contact him. Thank God that happened. I know it's been so much harder for so many.<BR>Then it was if only he would stop thinking about her and focus on me. That happened, but his heart wasn't in it. Now, in only two months, his heart is totally here. But now there are no more "if onlys". THIS is what I so desperately wanted. Can we build to passion from here? Now that I have him, do I really want him??<P>I have this growing concern that my apparent inability to throw myself, my heart into this is really due to something else. I too long for passion and often want to run away from my responsibilities, and the kids. Discovery triggered first a crisis of faith, now my own "mid life crisis". I'm afraid that I'm heading (in my mind) to maybe doing what student's h did, using the EMA as an excuse to escape.<P>I have never shared this. I'm just starting to get a glimpse of it. But what would I be escaping to? I love my kids, and my life, and I think I'm well on the way to recapturing the in-loveness. But I'm not committed. I fell like I'm waiting...I've already decided to forgive, to recommit; but I don't feel either one.

That's were a whole heaping serving of time and patience comes in.<P>Although sex with my H is better than a long long time and we love each other and are affectionate. Am I on a second honeymoon? No. We've got a 1 1/2 careers, three kids, two dogs (one ailing) three cats, one house and a life crammed full of stuff. My life is a whirlwind of activitie and it is easy to burn out. <P>Marriage is a combination of dedication and constraint. Dedication to want to make it the best it can be and constraint to keep your nose to the grindstone (kids, vows, etc). Sometimes you fly more on dedication, but when you are stumbling or just plain tired, constraint takes over sometimes.<P>Just because you don't feel a certain way doesn't mean you never will. Plus you made choices in your life that require follow through and commitment. Not always fun, not always fair and not always easy. <P>But when you do the hard work and you do make it through a sticking point, it is rewarding.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13