You said in my other topic about guilt that you didn't want your H to drown in guilt, but that you needed to feel that he really felt and understood how badly he hurt you. Please tell me what he could have done, or could be doing, to make you feel like he really did understand how hurt you were. How did you decide that his level of guilt/remorse was appropriate? What actions did he take to show you that he understood you?<P>In someone else's post (I think it was Essyboo's about why it is hard to forgive) mentioned that she needed to hear from her H that he wished it had never happened, as an example.<P>I'm guessing that every betrayed has their own "action" they would like their spouse to do to convince them they are truly sorry for what they did. Not only that, I think the betrayer needs to discuss what things need to happen before they feel forgiven. I think it is a worthy item for discussion because many people here are trying very hard to struggle with forgiveness and guilt on the part of their spouse.<P>The reason I'm so stuck on this topic is because I still feel that no level of remorse or action I could have taken on my part was enough for my ex-H to forgive me, and that hurts. I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim, but I feel that my ex-H's treatment of me post-confession was just as much a betrayal of me as my cheating was to him. I'm truly frustrated that nothing I tried to do was enough to save my marriage. You're right about me needing to forgive myself, but it is not because I have no compassion for my ex-H. I had SOOO much compassion for my ex, that I was nearly suicidal when contemplating the hurt I'd caused him. I've painted a picture of him as being mean and unforgiving. Just pause for a moment and consider, what if I'm right? Does that mean that it was ok for me to have an affair? Definately not. Does that mean that he had a part in destroying our marriage? I think so. Why does that make you angry? Why is obligation to do right and make amends, or even pity, such an awful thing? Why is my hurt and disappointment any less valid than what the betrayed feel? Is it possible that there are more ways to be betrayed than just the sexual? I'm not supposed to feel sorry for myself that my marriage is over? According to my beliefs, I'm committing continued adultery if I ever have sex with another person besides my ex-H, even if he divorced me. My own beliefs dictate that I should be celibate for life now. Many others with certain religious convictions also believe that. How's that for consequences? My beliefs dictate that I do not "move on" to another relationship. Of course I'm sad. Of course I'm having a hard time coming to terms with that. Do you only have compassion for betrayed?

The Student:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Is it possible that there are more ways to be betrayed than just the sexual? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Oh <B>yeah</B>, baby!"<P>I suspect that often, by the time sexual infidelity occurs, both spouses could offer a long list of 'betrayals' committed by their partners.<P>Sexual betrayal is not the only betrayal of marriage vows, nor is it usually the first. <P>It just gets all the 'air time'. <BR>

Wow! My head is reeling from your post! The thing that keeps sticking out in my mind is this. It is sometimes difficult for a betrayed to understand just how much pain, suffering, remorse and guilt that we betrayers actually do feel and vice-versa I'm sure. <P>I can't think of anything that makes it "right" to have an affair. But I refuse to except that all betrayers are 100% to blame for the destruction of a marriage.<P>And DITTO DOUG!!!! I wish I had said it! You are so correct in your reply! I think back and wonder where things went wrong in my marriage and only now do my eyes open up and see the things that were really going on with H. Minor things compared to my infidelity.... but still damaging and betraying.<P>Sorry, but my head is still reeling and I can't think straight... TheStudent.... I do understand your frustration..... (That's why I DO NOT want to go there...)<BR>

TheStudent,<P>Well TS as usual, you bring up some really tough and challenging things to address. <P>I guess looking at how you feel I'd better add my $0.02, surprise . <P>I think one of the problems you may be having and many people do is the expectation that things can always be restored. TS you know that much of this is like entropy. Once created it cannot be uncreated. <P>I believe that your H's inability to forgive you was his problem not yours. I don't mean that in a negative sense. I mean some people can handle certain things and others cannot. Once you crossed his line, of what he could handle and what he could not, no matter how hard he tried he could not get over it. I am just speculating here, but if his angry response to all of your attempts to reconcil the marriage were somewhat unusual for him, then I think the anger may have of come from frustration on his part. He hurt and he could not get over it no matter how hard you tried and he tried. This will lead to anger due to the frustration. I believe that he did not want to lose you or he would have left immediately. He did not. Unfortunately, that meant you got the brunt of his anger for almost a year. Still after he left, he talked of sometime getting together again. We discussed the role of school in the timing of that, but consider this.<P>One he did not leave you immediately. Two, he still talks about getting together again sometime. Three he has apologized for his behavior.<P>What does this mean to me. He really wanted to stay married to you. Your efforts were not unnoticed by him. Three, he understood he could not get over it and realized that his attempts to do it failed. That is why he apologized.<P>TS, I think he has forgiven you. I think your efforts were not in vain. He just could not reverse entropy. He could not make himself forgive you although he wanted to do so. I don't know and could only speculate on the reasons he could not forgive, but I do think he was very bothered by the fact that he could not.<P>Where does that leave you? I think you must realize that you did not fail in the attempts to reconcil. You must realize that marriage was not in the best of states, both parties are responsible for that. It is time for your anger, due to your frustration to be recognized for what it is. It is the same anger your H had. He was frustrated with himself and you are frustrated with yourself. And you both turn this frustration into anger and guilt.<P>TS once the Genie was out of the bottle, you could not put it back and neither could your H. Please stop the guilt, you did all you could do after the affair. I don't think that there was anything you could have done at that point. Unfortunately, this is not an engineering problem, where with sufficient effort and though one can fix the problem.<P>You gave it your best effort and it was not enough because your H could not get over his problems to forgive you. He may now have been able to do that. And I hope that you can get far enough along to forgive yourself. You made a terrible mistake, but you did not continue with this mistake as many spouses of those on this board did. You tried to correct it. You did correct it. You had removed the OM from you life and wanted to get back to a loving marriage with your H. You did your best. <P>Please forgive both yourself and him.<P>God Bless You, TS<P>JL

Thanks all for some very thoughtful answers to my questions. At some point I'd like to step out of my own skin long enough to help someone else around here. <P>To anyone who might be lurking,<BR>Even if you don't feel like responding to my post, please consider the following:<P>Try as best as you can to let your spouse know what he/she can do to make you feel as if your pain is understood by them, in a non-lovebusting way, of course.<P>Help them express what they need from you to feel forgiven. It is in your power to help them forgive themselves, without you being a "floormat". It may require more than just you telling them "I forgive you".<P>JL,<BR>You made me smile with the entropy and engineering equation analogy. <P>My healing process is like the First Law:All energy is conserved. It can be neither created nor destroyed, only its form can be altered from one form of energy to another. My current anger, at myself and him, is not only my frustration at our marriage failing, but me kicking myself for marrying him in the first place. I should have known his commitment to marriage was not equal to mine when he said about my first husband "you should have just left him." Like, the solution to marital problems is to just get a divorce if you're not happy 24-7. Which brings me to a second,unrelated topic:<P>The issue of re-marriage....The only reason why I married a second time is because my first admitted he had never intended to be faithful to me, and our marriage was annulled. I felt like my second marriage was really my "first". I get really disgusted at the idea "It just didn't work out, so move on to someone else." So many people get married thinking "if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce." Or, "do this and this so that your next relationship will be more successful". Yuck. There is nothing more pathetic (in my mind) than the person who gets married, 3,4, whatever, times. How ridiculous is it to commit for life to multiple people, unless your previous spouse dies? The only reason my H divorced me is because it was always an "option" for him, and he does not share my spiritual beliefs. His conscience has not suffered one iota, and he has no problem "moving on" to the next person. <P>Nonplused said in another post that if one spouse can't forgive, then it is best for them to "move on." I find that unacceptable. If they can't forgive, or are having a hard time, then I'm convinced they just haven't tried hard ENOUGH. If divorce is not an option, then the incentive is much,much greater to find a way to forgive, rather than just throw up your hands and say "oh well, I tried." The world's most persistent problems have never, ever been solved by saying that. Of course, if your spouse is a "quitter", where does that leave you? Yes, I do need to forgive myself, but not so that I can move on to someone else, and I tend to resent that idea. You haven't been the one telling me that, but lots of others tell me that. Blah,blah, you'll find a good man who can understand you made a mistake. Again. yuck. My only goal in forgiving myself is to be able to get to a place where I can help others to not make the same mistakes I did, not so that I can be all fresh and wonderful for the replacement dude. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 06, 2000).]

TheStudent - you asked me once about something I said about not being sure if I could forgive. Now your question about what I would want him to do show he feels my pain struck me since he and I have talked about it.<P>I guess the fact that we are able to talk about everything without lbing or him being defensive has helped a lot. But I guess he seems so casual about it. He said sorry (no begging or crying) and is now focused on DOING the right things. But I really am not sure what more he can do besides remind me that he knows I am still in pain and he'll be there to help. His time and energy as I said in my recent post seem to be on other things. I don't believe he thinks much about it, while I spend a lot of energy trying to 1)figure it out 2)understand him 3)on MB on the topic as a whole. Is that not more a male/female difference? He is more worried about things at his job. But I fell hurt that he slept like a baby the night he told me (I couldn't eat or sleep for weeks).<P>I'm not sure we don't confuse forgiveness as an act of the will (which I've done) and the healing that takes place when the anger and hurt are less. I chose to forgive him that same night, and the anger is now mostly gone, but I am having nightmares about his infidelity.<P>You said you did all to follow Harley's principles to restore the marriage. Did he? You can't control the other person and plan A or B are merely to get you to the point that you both meet each other's needs. One person cannot carry a marriage, and Harley says that love in a marriage is conditional. His book Give and Take made the case very well. So maybe your divorce wasn't even about forgiveness. If your h didn't see that making it work with you was in his own best interest, he didn't give what he needed to. Moral issues regarding divorce aside, I understood very clearly from what I read in Harley that forgiving my h and recovering this marriage was the best thing for ME, not just the kids or him. Otherwhise, I could not have gotten this far. If it sound incredibly selfish, read that book.

schizzo,<P>I remember your post. I remember you said your H was doing lots of things to try and regain your trust, but you couldn't understand why it didn't affect him like it affected you. I too wonder if this is a guy thing. "They" seem to compartmentalize and shove out the emotional stuff. Although, if you follow my First Law analogy (above) I still think it gets "converted" into something else. Your H seems to be wrapped up in work concerns? Traditionally, this is where men tend to get a great deal of their self-esteem. So, his "stuff" has been channeled to work maybe? <P>Yea, I tried to follow the MB principles. I never went to Plan B until after the divorce. My H wasn't interested in coming here. He read part of one book on infidelity and put it down. Apparently, he was disgusted by the idea that a marriage could "recover" from infidelity. I asked him to come here for proof that it could, and he said "I'm sure they are all good people,but I'm not interested." He had this very black and white way of looking at things. He was convinced that half the population cheats, and the other half doesn't. So it was just his job to find a person in that "other" half. I think he still thinks that. He basically tended to believe anything that led to the divorce path, while discounting any thing that said otherwise. It was then just a matter of time until his heart could follow his head, about a year's time as a matter of fact.

I figured as much. So YOU have no reason to go on feeling guilty about the marriage. My h is different. He can delude himself for awhile like anyone, but he recognizes the ring of truth when he sees it. He saw truth in Harley's books and only told me when he believed there was hope for us. Obviously, he ran the risk that I might not even want to.<P>Trust is still a big issue for me (his affairs went on for a year and a half), but our marriage is already stronger than it was before the affairs because it is based on Harley's rules. Honesty, lots of time together, meeting needs, and avoiding lovebusters.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Apparently, he was disgusted by the idea that a marriage could "recover" from infidelity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If that was his attitude, HE never gave it a chance. I'm an avid student of the Bible, and I'm not sure you're supposed to spend the rest of your life alone because your marriage failed. Don't quote verses to me, I know them. Like I said, just not sure.

schizzo,<BR>I know there are lots of interpretations for the Bible. There are parts too that say that it is better to be married than to have lust in your heart, etc. I don't have it in front of me...<P>I just don't think I could make that commitment again to anyone, or believe it from anyone. I feel bad enough having two divorces. So it is not just a matter of what the Bible says, I've felt this way for a long time. Marriage is for life. I've seen people cope with amazing things, and I know it is possible. I scare myself when I think of what I might do if I got married a THIRD time and divorce looked iminent. I'd either kill him or kill myself. Really. Pretty scary.

TheStudent,<P>You are right of course, that with divorce being easy, the easy way out is to say "It didn't work so I'm outa here". In fact because divorce is easy, I believe it puts a reverse stigma on people who stay. <P>Let us take it from the Macho Man point of view. If the wife cheats, a real man won't put up with this and leaves. In a period when divorce was really frowned on, the response was a real man endured the pain and made the best of it. I know I am taking this to extremes, but is seems to be the case. It is also true for women from a slightly different slant. Look on the board at the H's who have the kids, while the W's are having the affairs, getting divorces. This type of behavior for a mother is still not looked on well, but was really frowned on when divorce was not as accepted.<P>As for your case, how can you beat yourself up about not quizzing your prospective spouse about their views on divorce. It seems if you were worried about that at the beginning you weren't truely committed either. Hindsite is always 20/20.<P>TS, as we discussed earlier, I still feel that your H wanted out because he could not get around the affair, but I do believe schizzo is also right. He wasn't sure that fixing the marriage was in his best interest either. Your drive for your education was and is your number one priority. He knew that and knew that if you left school you would be very unhappy for the rest of your life. You pointed out that it now seems that he wanted a more traditional life as well. This may have only come about as years have gone by.<P>I believe that you must face the fact that your drive for education and position within your field is the most important part of your life right now and has been for years. If that is true, then an H will not be the most important part of your life. It seems to me you cannot keep beating yourself up for being yourself. There is nothing wrong with your drive and interests, but you like everyone else cannot have it all, all of the time.<P>Once you are out of school, then your priorities may shift again and perhaps another man may enter the picture. However, it seems to me that your drive is such that few men would make suitable mates while you were trying to reach your goals. <P>As far as trying to address the pain caused by the affair, I believe your suggestions as usual are right on. Ask what it will take, to get to a point of forgiveness. Schizzo also pointed out that forgiveness is not the same as having no pain. One must have a reason to go through the pain. Maybe your H did not see the reason for doing this. That is not your problem and not something you could have foreseen.<P>So once again, TS, I say quite trying to reverse entropy. You have shown yourself to be a good person with lots of drive and goals to reach. Rejoice in this wonderful gift you have been given and quit looking for more failure mechanisms. <P>I will leave you with this last thought. Many years ago when I was in graduate school, I got into a long conversation with the minister of my church. We were talking about working, drive, why some people succeed and others struggle. He made a comment during our conversation that has in many ways changed my life. He said "the ability and willingness to work hard at something is truely a gift from God, even more than having the tools to do the work." I had never thought of my ability to work 20 hour days or willingness to do that as a gift. But as the years have gone by, I came to realize that he was very right. Knowing what you want and the willingness to go after it and put in the hard work to do it is really a gift. You, TS, have been gifted. Use your gifts, learn from your mistakes, and realize how truely fortunate you really are.<P>I think if you ever do meet the right man at the right time, he will be a very lucky person. But if you don't, you have been blessed with a passion for your work. Be thankful. OK?<P>God Bless You<P>JL

Hi JL,<P>Many men get to have it all. Marriage, career, children. My ex now makes over $100,000 a year. Think that scares women away? Fat chance. It is just the opposite for women. Diane Sawyer, Barbera Walters (another twice divorced woman), Madeleine Albright, Elizabeth Dole (who is married, but has no kids), Oprah Winfrey, Jodie Foster (who is now my role-model for having a nice career AND kids-sans man). The list goes on. Successful women rarely get to have it all. I'm not "breeder" material for those equally career oriented guys who want a hot meal, clean laundry, and little faces to come home to. 9/10 of the engineers I worked with before going to school had wives that stayed home. It is only women who are asked or expected to "choose". I'm cursed with this pesky intellect that needs constant feeding. If only I could just find a way to be happy putting my goals behind my partner's goals, I'm sure I could catcha man (or keep one, in my case). I put my goals on the back burner till my H completed his. It was his turn to follow through to help me finish mine. But hey, why bother when you can find some little creampuff that only expects you to bring home the money every month? All his friends have "one", why not him? Ok, off my little soapbox...<P>Ok, I'm done griping...<P> I'm thankful that God blessed me with this wonderful intellect. I'm thankful I have the time, skill, and desire to fully pursue my goals and to let it take me wherever God is willing. God, please help me to attend to this gift in a way that is most beneficial to myself and others. Please help me to understand and direct my curiosity in ways that will serve you. Amen. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 06, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>Many men also get divorced. About an equal number as women, I would guess . If you look on this board at women having affairs their biggest complaint is "he was too involve with his work and had no time for me." So just remember the pancake, TS. It always has two sides. Some very successful women do remain married as well as some successful men. <P>As for earning scaring men away, I am not sure about that. I don't think it is the money. It is the importance you attach to it and how you interact with each other that count. TS avoiding risk is not really a good thing unless you are building a bridge. You will not get the rewards if you don't take some risk. By the way, there is no "3 strikes " law with marriage. You are still good to go, if you want to.<P>God Bless TS<P>JL

TS, did I understand right - want kids without the man? Ouch for the kids. I have a 2 and 4 year old, and believe me, they need their father.<P>I had a very successful career. Started as a CPA with the top Co. in the world and was doing very well when I left 5 years ago to be a mom. Yes, I had to choose. I believe kids need a parent at home and most men (certainly my man) are not cut out for it. So I have given up external success to be a "breeder" as you called it. As to hot meals, even when I worked, it fell to me. Harley calls it the man's need for domestic support.<P>But I have not neglected my intellect, there are ways to develop ourselves, but it is a matter of priorities. But it's the kids, not my h, that called for this sacrifice. As they are getting past the "I need you every minute" stage, I am now wondering how I can use my gifts without returning to the 80 hr, heavy on the travel life I had. I cannot go back to that. And yes, since my h has that type of job, our marriage would be hopeless.<P>

Student,<BR>I havn't been here for a while and I just read your post but none of the responses so I am probably going to repeat what others have written. From your post it sounds like you are defending yourself.... you don't have to. You are and have been one of the betrayers that I feel are truly remorseful for what happened. I seriously don't think there was anything more you could have done to save your marriage. Your ex-h seems to be one that would rather run than to face challenges. Some people just cannot or will not tolerate imperfections in thier life. He gave up so soon that it makes me wonder that if you had not had an affair but rather something like a long term illness that he would also leave you. I remember when you were agonizing on telling him. It seemed as though you told him and the decision was made... he wanted a divorse.<BR>As far as you showing remorse. From all your posts clear from the beginning you tried to show him how sorry you were. I don't remember how many times I posted that i wish my W was like you. This is one of those times I think the issues are his. Granted you had the affair but it seems he would not meet you anywhere let alone half way.<BR>As far as your religious beliefs... Jesus forgives the repentant. You tried to make things right, you have been repentant.... to my mind you are forgiven. I hope your beliefs include Jesus, if not.... ooops... give Him a try.... if so.... cool!<BR>I still pray that my W would be like you are...<BR>mkn

schizzo,<BR>you said:<BR>As to hot meals, even when I worked, it fell to me. Harley calls it the man's need for domestic support.<P>That is not equality in my book. I think lots of men's need for domestic support is just as skewed as lots of women's need for financial support. Most of the time, the two match up (i.e. the working dad and stay at home mom). I think men are just as capable of providing child care, just as I believe that women are just as capable of providing financial resources. I do apologize for the term "breeder". I suppose most men don't want to feel like a "cash cow" either. Although it doesn't sound like it, I don't resent women for staying home. I resent men for getting the career, kids, and someone at home to take care of them. Then if they decide they get tired of all that, they can bail and leave the mom with the burden of full-time child care. I don't blame most women for wanting to stay home full-time. Odds are, they were doing most of the work at home PLUS holding down a job. Statistics show that women still do 70% of the house/child care whether they work outside the home or not. I'm pretty sure you can vouch for me when I say that when hubby gets home, his work is done. Time to either plop in front of the television or spend a few minutes with FUN playtime with junior. You're work is 24-7 and probably most weekends too, correct? If dad takes over, then he's "babysitting" and he is supposed to get some kind of perk or a cookie for doing his share? We (women) are raised to think that this is normal and how things should be. <P>I plan to adopt. These are kids that don't have homes. I would like one or two children. I don't need a grown up one to take care of in addition to the children. Plus, I get to raise the kids the way I want to, without having to shuttle them between homes on weekends and deal with all the other BS that goes with separate households. I see my sister going through that with my niece. There are discipline issues, dietary issues, you name it. Not only that, her ex married the affairee, so my niece and my sister get to put up with Step-Monster from hell. I tend to agree that a stay-at-home parent is better than child care. My ex and I talked about kids. I wanted him to stay at home, since I was the more ambitious of the two of us. He said he wouldn't mind staying home, but not to take care of kids. Oh well. He's at the age where lots of women are just itching to find a man who makes good money and has no children. They will be lining up in DROVES!! <P>mkn,<BR>Hey there! how are you doing? Long time no talk! You're still married I presume? Things must be going better though, cause I haven't seen you here for awhile. Thanks for the pep-talk. I'm a freak, but starting to feel ok about it. <P>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 06, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 06, 2000).]

TS, it took me a long time to accept it, but I do believe men NEED to be taken care of. No, it is definitely not equality. But needs are not wants, that is just the way they are. I used to be more a proponent of equality, but I've come to the place that I cannot deny the built in differences in the sexes. Not only Harley, but Men are from Mars...but mostly my own experience. Men are very different with a different set of needs they no more asked for than we asked for ours.<P>In fact, in many ways, they need us more than we need them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think men are just as capable of providing child care, just as I believe that women are just as capable of providing financial resources<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, but no way. Fathers are very important, but they cannot provide the nurture that mom provides, at least not most men. Women can make good money these days, but we're not wired the same way there either. Worrying about the financial provision for the kids is the first thing my h thinks of, and it's not because of the roles we've chosen. I can only say I really see he's from another planet in many ways.<P>I think unless we see there are serious and valid differences, it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate, let alone accept each other.

schizzo,<BR>It seems you are happy with the way things are between men and women. That is great. I mean it. You will have a much easier time in this life than me. I'm pretty much a freak. I'm not happy with the way things are, and till men "evolve" into creatures that can be nurturing too, I just don't need them. I was not put on this planet to serve ANY man that is not willing to meet my halfway in everyway. Why bother? If I just want sex, I can go pick up someone from the local bar if I really wanted to bad enough. Friendship/intimacy? I can get that from my friends and family. All I can say to any guy is "what have you got that is worth my time and attention?" I don't need them for money either. The only thing I ever needed from a man was TRUE partnership, but that seems to be very difficult to find. <P>I only had one sister. My dad did all the things with us he'd do with a son. Sports, truck toys, rough-housing. When I was a kid and someone was picking on me, he taught me how to fight (of course, only if the other kid threw the first punch). When the car needed fixing, we were out there with him. I've done just about everything on a car except drop a transmission or open up the block. My mom taught us how to cook and sew. I believe the differences between men and women are mostly taught, not innate. I can do anything a man can do except pee standing up, and won't waste my time with any man who can't do everything a woman can do except bear a child. If that man doesn't exist, I'm perfectly happy being alone over the other alternative.<P>Like I said before, I really don't resent women for staying home. Maybe I wish I were a guy(?) since I seem to be "acting" like one. Well, I don't WISH I were a guy, just wish I had all the perks guys seem to have, that's all. Your H is lucky to have you.

TheStudent:<P>I agree with mkn's comment that the problem is really with your ex-husband. People forgive who they want to forgive. For whatever reason, he did not want to forgive you. Nothing you could have done would have changed that. Frankly, in the scheme of things, what you have done is far less than many of the other betrayers that post here and certainly less than many of our unapologetic husbands who are still in the affair and we betrayed are waiting for them so we can forgive them. He just didn't want to.<P>Just to illustrate this comment about wanting to forgive, when I talk to my husband, he says things like "I just can't trust you". I've apologized many times but he won't forgive me. AND HE'S HAVING THE AFFAIR, NOT ME. He doesn't want to forgive me for the mistakes I innocently made in the marriage because forgiveness would be the first step towards openness, compassion and honesty between us. If he can hold on to blaming me for everything, it's easier for him to continue his affair. This way, he's separated from his family and involved with someone else because "Distressed is a bad person that I can't trust", instead of because "I'm committing adultery and abandoning my children because I'm weak and lack values".<P>In your case, as I know others have written before, there's something else going on with him. If he wanted to be with you, he would have forgiven you. Instead, he ran with your transgression as an easy way to get out of the marriage. I don't think you could have done anything that would have made a difference, but I understand the tragedy of that for you. Be proud of the way you handled this.

Thanks for the compliment, I think he is very lucky, but hey...<P>But you nailed the point where we differ - I am convinced the differences are innate. There have been so many studies done, and I see it in my own kids.<P>You probably don't accept the Adam and Eve story as factual. But God made man and he was not complete. Then He made woman as the perfect complement. We are not here to serve men any more or less than they are to serve us, it's just different. And their instincts of provision and protection are not learned. They are so deeply ingrained. My h really is a great partner. I hope you can find one.<P>Maybe that is why this is so hard. He's the only person I've ever really trusted. He has his own issues midlife crisis, whatever, but I also think I put him under enormous pressure putting him on a pedestal. Now we are more equal than ever, as we both see how much we need each other's help to get by. I think the POJA is the most equalizing principle I've ever seen. Now we have to agree - enthusiastically. He was never comfortable with the male as the leader role.

Distressed,<BR>You said:<BR>"Instead, he ran with your transgression as an easy way to get out of the marriage." <P>I totally agree, but he could have spared me the year from hell. His parents told him to forgive me. Both his brother and sister had been divorced. He probably felt he had to give the appearance of trying for his family and friends. I'm sure it will provide a good story for his next partner. I feel sorry for her. He had a good story about his previous girlfriend too. He made HER out to be the hysterical one, when it was really him. When I was collecting my things before the divorce and he was screaming at me for the umpteenth time I just said "Is this the way all of your relationships end?". He didn't answer, but just screamed back "Is this the way your's end?" I said no, and honestly that was true. Sure, there were tears. Even with my first husband (the one who was the sex addict) there wasn't near the hatred and animosity from either of us. Wierd. I also said "one of these days you are going to have to stare into the abyss of your soul, like I've had to do this year, and you won't find it a pretty place."<P>Man, you are one trooper. Having to deal with infidelity, plus his anger. He says he doesn't trust you. Maybe he doesn't trust that you've forgiven him? Although I find that hard to believe. I tend to go along with your take on it. That he's just making up excuses so that he can continue. I swear, if I ever have a son, they will NOT go around blaming everyone for their problems. I'm guessing they learn this from their fathers and mothers. The mothers are always running around cleaning up the emotional baggage, and sons learn from their fathers that its ok to shift the blame. Mom'll take care of it!!