Hi,<BR>I was rereading your response to my other topic and wanted to talk more. You brought up some really good points.<P>You mentioned all of the things my H tried to do to forgive me and you presented some of the things he said and did as proof that he really did try. In my less angry times, I think about those things too. I really would like to believe he tried, but that still doesn't change things. It doesn't make me feel any better because he is gone and I have no desire to replace him.<P>You said that you thought he had forgiven me. After the divorce, he said the same thing. He said he had forgiven me. What kills me, is that I don't CARE if he has forgiven me. I confessed to save my marriage, not to earn his forgiveness (although that is certainly part of it). What do I care if he forgives me or not if he is not in my life? I know that sounds awful. So, he forgives me. So now it will be easier for him to find someone else? How is that supposed to make me feel better? If I were a potential partner of his in the future and he said to me "She cheated on me, but I apologized and I forgive her" I'd have to think, then why aren't you still married? Why did you initiate a divorce? Why aren't you trying to reconcile? Duh! To me, that would be a huge red flag, not the picture of loving acceptance he might try to sell to replacement woman. That is why his apologies/forgiveness don't mean anything to me. If the situation were reversed and I said to him "I forgive you for the things you did to me while we were married, but I still want a divorce so I can be with OM." It seems like the same thing to me. <P>I am trying so hard to get past this. The thing that keeps popping up time and time again is that my efforts were to save my marriage and restore the love we once had. That is it. My efforts were then completely in vain. All I really did (it seems to me) is give him time to get over me so that he could get a divorce without too much angst on his part. I take no comfort in that. He was a person who had been handed everything in his life, and never had to struggle for anything. Not his education, not work, nothing. So having to struggle to save his marriage was completely foreign to him. I take no comfort in the fact that I married someone like that to begin with. And since I have no desire to remarry, the point about learning lessons I can take to my next relationship is completely void. I guess I'm a hypocrite. I can't forgive him for divorcing me. Oh well. There is probably nothing you could say to make me feel better. You have given me alot of good things to think about, and I will continue to try...as always...

Up to the top for JL.

TS,<P>I responded to you in other post. And I think much of what I said actually address some of the questions you asked here. But let me offer you some advice.<P>If you think that trying to save your marriage and failing at didn't teach you some useful things then I advise that you rethink your moral philosophy. You see you learned how to admit to someone very close to you that you had comitted a great wrong. You were willing to face the music and try to make it right. You have learned that people are not predictable and do not necessarily do what we want. You have learned that having an easy life doesn't make a person better or well equiped to handle tough things in life. You have learned about yourself and love. What it means to you, what you want from it, and how to give it.<P>If you think these things are only about marrige TS, you need to broaden your horizons. You will deal with people in business who behave like your H. You will deal with relatives, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, family. They will need your love and compassion at some point in their life. If you believe you will never marry or fall in love with someone, you may be seriously mistaken. Just like school you have learned many things the utility of which you cannot fathom now, but they will be useful to you later. <P>TS, your marriage failed and you could not bring it back. That is a fact, just as the affair caused the final collapse of the marriage. It is done!! What you need to learn is that you must forgive youself and your H. Not to restore the marriage but because it is of benefit to you to do so. If someone screws you in your profession, does that mean you will never work with them again? I hope not, particularly if that person is critical for you to accomplish what you want to accomplish. You need to learn how to deal with this kind of stuff.<P>It is good that he has forgiven you. Don't you understand, it means that you did do it correctly. You did the best that could be done. It is his problem that he could not bring himself to stay in the marriage. You should take great pride in the fact that he has forgiven you. It may not do you any monetary or marital good right now but it signifies that you did the correct thing by confessing and showing your deep remorse.<P>TS not all projects turn out as we start them. I know that you engineers are somewhat limited in this regard . You expect everything to work out according to the blueprint, but if you go toward the research end of engineering you will find that you frequently come out of a research project in a place you didn't expect.<P>TS I want you to feel better; that is for sure, but I want you to realize who you are and were your priorities are. You made a mistake and you did your best to restore the love in the marriage that was severely damaged by the mistake. Your H could not get around it. There was no good solution to this problem once it was created.<P>So in summary, you should care that he forgave you. Your marriage was not just about you but about him. Short of saving it, it has ended in the best possible way. I know this is of little comfort, but you have learned many things that will be of great value to you later in life and not just if you remarry. You are learning about love and how delicate it can really be. You are learning how powerful it can be. You are learning that people need other people. So much TS.<P>Enough, right now I need to get back to work, but TS one final thought. You never replace another human being. This is very important for you to understand if you run your own business. Each person makes their own place in your business and your heart. To try and find a replacement is a futile exercise. If you meet a new man, he will not replace your H. He will create his own place as you will with him.<P>God Bless You,<P>JL

JL,<BR>I've been reading the sections from the forgiveness workbook that Faith, Hope, Love re-posted for me. Hopefully that will help. <P>I fully expect I will "fall in love" again. I expect that I will have opportunities to love many times. I'm very aware that along with "falling in love" goes the feeling that it will last forever. As Nellie said in another post, there is a 50-50 chance it won't. Probably even higher than that in my case. My mom and dad were in some kind of argument recently and she came to stay with me for a couple of days. Well, they've been married for over 35 yrs and have been through hell and back together. I knew it was only temporary, and they'd be all kissy face soon enough. When my mom got here I just said "sorry to hear you two are having problems, but I hope you don't think I can give you any advice. Heck, would you take your car to a mechanic whose own car kept breaking down? Ha, ha. I pointed them to this website for advice from the pro's. I told schizzo in another post that I scare myself when I think about what I'd do if I did marry for a third time and it looked like divorce may be imminent (either real or imagined). I'd either kill myself or kill him! Nope. I'm much better off this way. It's just going to take a little getting used to, that's all.<P>You've made alot of excellent points. I know I need to forgive now. I know if I apply the same persistence to forgiving as I've done for so many other things, I'll be ok. I'm done pestering you. I'll just go and get to work on myself now

TheStudent,<P>You are not pestering me. I enjoy "talking" with you. I see great promise for you and your life. Ask anytime, if I see it I will answer as best I can. You are dealing with an amateur though. <P>You will get through this TS. And I feel you will prosper. Just don't shut any doors on yourself, life does enough of that already.<P>God Bless You<P>JL

Hi TS & JL, sorry for getting in the middle.<P>TS, just read your profile... is it a typo or your marriage broke up in 1988? Sorry, 2 years or 12 years? NOBODY deserves your tears FOR SO LONG. I am a betrayed too & can't even imagine going through this pain for so long. You deserve better.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited January 07, 2000).]

oops! Typo. 1998 it is. The divorce was final May 1999. <P>I was sitting in class today, and just realized that the "anniversary"--if you could call it that--of my mistake came and went a day or two ago and I didn't even remember it. "It" happened almost exactly two years ago, confessed in June of 1998, tried recovery for a year, then ex divorced me in May 1999. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>I was reading schizzo' thread and your comments on it. First, you are a hard one to keep up with . Second, I decided to respond to what you said here because I didn't want to interrupt the flow of that very interesting thread.<P>Is it possible that you are really mad at your exH because you think he needed you less than you needed him? I sense you have built some high walls about men now. You state that you don't need men for anything and you can do anything a man can do except pee standing up. Actually you can do that if you want to . <P>TS if you define your world narrow enough then I believe that you can do anything a man can do. However, we are general purpose beings, and there are many things men do better than women and vis a versa. You know this. <P> As for men having it easy, I just saw book today that points most the studies quoted by Womens Groups such as the United Nations Study simply ignored the data that did not suit their conclusion in the for public consumption version of their report. This was to get more press exposure and raise money. In fact most studies show that men spend more time working than women. That much of the stuff published today is simply filling agendas. <P>I will give you an example, about 5-10 years ago I was on a plane flight, and the woman seated next to me started talking about how unfair life was to women. She then proceeded to quote a statistic that when divorces occur mens income increased while women's went down. I asked how many companies she knew that provided pay raises to men that got divorced? She looked at me and said that NOW wouldn't be lying. I looked at her and said two houses/apt. were not less expensive than one and that two did not live as cheaply separately as two together. Later it was admitted in the press that the data for that study was, shall we say flawed , but the "spirit of this story was correct". There are conservation laws for money as well as energy and momentum.<P>TS, I know I am not going to change you mind about women's role in society. For one thing it is constantly changing. So are mens. But I will remind you that you get what you expect. Most men are just a flexible as women, they just don't talk about it. This particular book pointed out that during war, we take men who go to church, don't fight, and are polite and turn them into very efficient killers and then when the war is over they go back to being what they were (for the most part). Never mind the psychic damage done by such horrors.<P>So let me get off my soap box and lets discuss what you were saying. You now have stated that you don't need men. You don't need your exH and really never did need him. Why did you marry him? Because he did give you something you needed, love, attention, and support. Further, from the sounds of your description of him, he was a pretty "90's" guy: Leaving his job and friends to move with you to your school, remaining behind to sell the house, working to support your passion for schooling. Yet that was not enough was it? Was the affair your demand for independence? Was the affair about your needs for conversation, affection, and even love from a man? Whatever the affair was about, you told your exH in no uncertain terms that he was not needed and now you are mad that he left. <P>Men do want to be needed. So do women, read the postings here from women, who state their H's ignore them. They want to be needed and included also.<P>TS, I suspect your anger while directed at your exH and now to men in general, is really anger at yourself for needing them. You are on a mission to prove that you are just as good as any man but still a victim (a female victim). Wonderful! you will behave and think just like the group of people you don't really like right now. Finally, your expectation or request that men become women is really not going to work. For I do believe that while much is cultural learning, the most fundamental aspects of women and men are genetic and chemical. If you don't believe chemical, consider the emotional and physical changes people go through on a monthly, yearly, and lifetime basis.<P>This post has gotten very long and a bit disjointed,(many phone calls during the writing), but TS please please don't build the walls you are building. You are denying a part of yourself, that you should not lose.<P>I truely hope I haven't offended you and I truely hope that you can finally reach what is making you so angry. Please keep working on this but really look at your expectations from your exH and what you were willing to provide. Yes Yes I know you promised to do anything once your revealed the affair, but there were reasons you had it, there were reasons your exH could not get over it, and there are now reasons you want to withdraw from whatever it is you need. You did have needs and you will again, TS.<P>Must quit and do work. I apologize for this rather rambling discourse. I did not mean for this to turn into a sermon.<P>God Bless You <P>JL<P>Please quit denying your own needs. You will be much happier. You may or may not find a man you want to spend your life with, but you must <P>You see TS I suspect you are really mad because you did need your H and he decided he didn't need you.

JL,<BR>I responded on another thread to some stuff you and FHL were talking about, but I'd like to address this post.<P>First off, you haven't offended me by anything you've said. These are all things I need to think about, and I value your input very much. If I sound angry it is because I AM, but not at you. ok, pal <P>Yes, I needed my H for love, attention, and affection. Yes, I'm mad that my H doesn't need me anymore for that. My ex was a more 90's guy than any I'd ever met, so I was very disappointed when he turned out to be more "common" than I initially believed. I'll go up on MY soapbox now. I know and know of, zillions of women who move to help further their husband's career, and don't put up half the battle my ex did. I honestly felt I had to drag him kicking and screaming. When I offered to quit, he'd say "oh no. I don't want you resenting me". And I probably would have in the long run. So my job was then to try and make the transition as smooth and pain-free as possible. This went on for a good year and a half before I even STARTED school. My resentment grew and grew, but I thought it would pass as soon as I started school and I could show him that I could still reserve time for him and that Atlanta wasn't such a bad place. After I started school and long before the affair, my ex would say stuff like "don't do this to me again". I asked him what I was "doing" to him. He said, making him move. Ohhh, I see. I reassured him in every imaginable way that how important he was to me. I included him in everything. Nothing I did was enough, because he wasn't getting what he wanted, and that was my unending compliance. The thing that still pisses me off though, is that I'd NEVER asked him to sacrifice or compromise anything major in our relationship. I knew this wasn't going to be easy for either one of us. Getting a PhD is not easy for the spouse, whether they are male or female. I just believe that women are raised to be more supportive of their husband's careers. I see it all of the time. If a man moves for his wife, then he's seen as being whipped OR he gets an extra big cookie for being a "90's" guy. THAT is what I resented. Till I met the OM, I had no idea how much I resented my H for making this so damned difficult. Jeez, all my girlfriends said that if their husband had been accepted into one of the top schools in the country with a full-scholarship, they'd be jumping up and down with joy, not getting the dose of grief I was getting. The OM made me feel I wasn't such a terrible person for wanting to get a PhD. REAL SIMPLE!! Acceptance. That was the ONLY need the OM supplied me. That was something my ex couldn't offer me, and after it was brought to his attention, simply didn't WANT to offer me either. <P>Ok, let's discuss the wall I'm currently building towards men. The love, attention, and affection I crave and have (in the past) sought from men and intimate (read--sexual) relationships with men I am now seeking from the world-at-large. Why? because the women in my life have been much better at meeting my emotional needs most of the time. Men are better at meeting my recreational needs, as I'm not the typical woman as far as activities go. Oh, and of course, sexual needs. So, now I don't have to choose just one guy because I need safe sex. I've chosen to become celibate, not a hermit. I refuse to devote my life to any *one* man, although I do believe I will "fall in love" again. Falling in love will not mean sex for me though. So in a way, I'm choosing to experience love in a different way and one in which is much more inclusive. I am then free to "love" anyone or everyone, much as priests do. Also, I refuse to go through this divorce thing ever again, with the associated stigma as well. There are lots of celibate men and women who have a fulfulling life surrounded by love. I know this general "man-hate" thing will pass in time as I learn to forgive my ex-H, but what will not change is my belief that, for me at least, sexual-committed-intimate relationship i.e. marriage is OUT. I do have friends that are guys, so I don't "hate" men. Just think that my interests aren't served in a committed relationship, that's all. I've done it twice now, and I'm done. You know, the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting different results?<P>My anger IS at myself for being stupid enough for needing men for things they so OBVIOUSLY CANNOT OR WILL NOT PROVIDE. Before my second husband and I got married, he said he'd support me, he made a whole bunch of promises that he never followed through on. I waited, and waited, till it became clear it was ALL TALK. Basically, he would "support" me as long as he was not too inconvenienced. That is not support. Although I'm still mad that more men choose not to step-up-to-the-plate emotionally or support wise (except simply financial), I've chosen to give up and just accept that I'm a "freak" and I don't mean that in a bad way. My H divorced me, and I'm convinced of this, is because he knows that there are many,many women out there who are happy to put their husbands needs before their own alot of the time and simply do not have the kind of ambition that would challenge his own. You could add to my list of "anger at myself" for not being normal or the average woman. I wish I didn't have this friggin ambition, I wish I could be happy just staying at home doing the wife thing and raising a bunch of kids, but I would not be. If I was born a man instead of a woman with the needs I have, there would be no problems. I'm not just mad at men, I'm mad at women too. I'm mad when they either don't get an education or they toss it. I'm mad that women allow themselves to be put in a position to "choose" instead of demanding their husbands "choose" more often. I'm mad when I hear that the vast majority of people in poverty are women with children. Why? My bet is they were depending on some guy to take care of them, and he, it, whatever, fell through. I'm mad at women for not learning to take care of themselves first. As pissed off as I am about my H not supporting me, I'm not in poverty or stuck shuttling the kids between homes on weekends. THANK GOD my parents encouraged me to find a trade, not find a husband when I was graduating high-school. Ok, I'm done ranting and raving... <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>Glad to hear you are done ranting and raving . TS I keep saying this and I will continue to say this. If you chose to view things a certain way, then they will seem that way to you, no matter the data. Our society was created by men and women not just men and if reflects the different general needs of both men and women. If it didn't it would fall. <P>Men will do about anything to get certain needs met and that includes behaving as women want them. Women will do the same for their needs to be met. However, I know you are familar with distribution functions. While many sterotypes are actually correct for the mean of the distribution that does not mean they hold for all of the distribution. You drive and thirst for education above all else put you out on the tail of the distribution function. You recognize that but you fail to understand that there are men out there also. <P>You are deluding yourself if you think all women merrily support their H's when it comes to careers, moving, jobs, or interests. Look on this board for examples. Proof by exception is not really valid in these issues.<P>I guess what I am talking to you about is made demands of your exH for your own purposes that he could not meet. You then broke you marriage vows. Does that make your ex H a villian? No. Does it make you a villian? No. You are certainly free to chose a life of celibacy. I could not argue with that anymore than I could argue with someone over their choice of a religion. But I am deeply concerned about your anger and your future if you don't get a more balanced view of people.<P>TS, please reflect on all of this. Please accept what is yours and discard what is not yours. Please know that getting divorced once or three times is not the issue. You are far to strong to be cloaking yourself in the robe of a myrtyr (sp). These issues are not about men failing you or being narrowed minded or anything else. These issues are yours. Please take them and put them where they belong; along with other garbage. <P>Must go. <P>God Bless You<P>JL

JL,<P>With all of my ranting and raving, I still need to point out that in no way do I believe that all of the things I've said about men or women apply to *all*.<P>Ok, even if I do accept that these things are not about men failing me, I still must learn to live with the fact that I am way out there on the bell curve. I understand this is not about men being narrow minded. Men want what they want and get what they want from most women, and vice versa. That doesn't make either the men or women "evil". Like, there wouldn't be strip joints if there weren't women willing to work at them. I'm just not like most women. And once I get beyond the anger of being "different" from most women I'm sure I'll accept a much more loving view of both men and women.<P>My drive and thirst for education was not above "all else". It was exactly equal to my ex-H's. I don't think *all* women merrily support their husbands, just much, much more than the reverse. I don't think *all* women or *all* men do anything, or else I couldn't exist The fact that there might be another man out there who is just as far out on the bell curve for men, as I am for women is not an issue for me. <P>Being divorced two times IS an issue for me. I'm deeply ashamed. I tried my heart out and failed. I'm ashamed to admit I've been rejected twice. I have a hard enough time living with myself now. Getting a third divorce would be the same as death to me, and that IS my issue. I'd rather be celibate than hop from man to man the rest of my life or being divorced a third time. <P>I don't think I'm a victim or a martyr. I CHOSE to marry those two men. I CHOSE to stay in school. Nobody forced me to do either of those things. Now I'm choosing not to let myself be put in a similar position ever again. No sex, no marriage, no rejection, no diseases, certainly no infidelity. Simple. So simple, I wish I'd thought of it before I met H #2.<P>It's ok that you see alot of this as garbage. I agree that alot of my anger is garbage. Like I said, as I learn to forgive my ex-H, and myself for being different, I'm sure that I will be ready to accept a much more loving view of both men and women. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

Hi Thestudent<P>I hope I'm not barging in here, but I wanted to offer some of my own perspective.<P>A bit of background: I am the betrayer. I had an affair last year in this 13 year marriage...it last several months and disclosure came just at the end of Oct., 1999.<P>Many issues--I won't get into them here.<P>What I have learned through the recovery process was that the affair was really about me and how needy internally I was...how so "unwhole" I was. I know that's a clichéd phrase, but in my case it was really true.<P>It took a lot of therapy on my part to understand that H nor the OM could not fill parts of me that we missing or had been killed off years ago. I had to do that, I had to fill those internal needs, and man was it hard!<P>You know the old saying "You can't love someone until you love yourself?" I used to think that was nuts! I'd look around me and see my husband, whom I loved, my two kids, whom I adored and despite knowing I "hated" myself (yiup, tons of unresolved issues from the past in there--and a few disorders to boot! )I knew I loved them. <P>All hell literally broke lose in May, 1998...hell that took me into the arms of another man who I thought understood me and could help me through what was a very traumatic time in my life. He sure did and then left me to get on with his life! (Yiup, mirror images!!!)<P>So there I was--hating myself (which was ancient history), pychologically tortured, rejected--just a bloody mess! And I hated my life, had no idea how I would climb out of the trunches I had dug for myself.<P>I began, dear Student, by looking after myself first. By facing head-on the pain of my past, by addressing some medical issues that had long plagued me, and slowly, oh god ever so slowly, tackling the affair (after it had ended). What I discovered was that the affair never was truly about my H but about me. <P>All my life I had run from who I was, and from those who had hurt me. I ran away, ran into my head, and finally into the arms of another. Running had become a pattern for me--and I realized to achieve peace in my life, in my heart, I had to break that pattern.<P>It was, without exception, the hardest thing I've ever had to face in my life. I did it not to save my marriage, but to save myself. I'm only 37 and was so tired of living this way--of feeling the pain and hurt and hatred and the insecurity of a confused life. I could just not imagine continuing along that path; actually I couldn't continue along that path--it rendered me virtuaally unable to function.<P>The lessons have been hard learned. But with the help and guidance of a wonderful cognitive behavioural psychologist, I began to make significant strides. I cannot believe how quickly healing has come (Did I say quickly? After 35 years of hell? ).<P>I began therapy for "me" in September of 1999 (vowing BTW never to tell my H of the affair) and by Christmas, I could honestly say "I like me..a whole lot!" And you know what? I do...and if that makes me likeable to others, great...if not, great too because I've learned that loving has to come from the inside and cannot be fed externally.<P>JL, my dear friend from another board on BB, offers you some great advice--the finest piece was about how learning to love yourself/accept/forgive yourself doesn't mean others will respond in kind. But it does mean that when others don't respond in kind--as in your ex's case--it is not because of you. That he could not get over your error (and in the end, it was just an error) really speaks about him, not you. And it is HE who will take that with him presumably into another relationship. And you know what, some people just plain don't give a damn. And again, that's their issue, not yours.<P>I'm one of those who, like Socrates said, "A life unexamined is a life not worth living". You've examined yours, you took all the right steps, you honoured yourself in coming clean and working towards restoring your marriage. It didn't work out, but that takes nothing away from who you are nor your evolution.<P>Sorry, I tend to be rather long-winded, as my good friend JL can attest--but I just wanted to tell you, you're doing fine! I'd also encourage you to take a good look at yourself and learn to love what you see--from the inside out!!! <P><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P>

Hi Francis,<P>Thank you for "barging in" as you say .<BR>I've been to tons of therapy, maybe not many good ones, but about a year and a half total. I completely agree that my affair was not about my H at all. I completely hated myself when it happened, but realized very quickly (within about a couple of weeks) that this affair certainly wasn't going to improve my self-image. I felt sooo guilty about moving my H and him having such a hard time with it, but I also was sooo mad that he was having such a hard time with it. So many mixed up things all at the same time. My anger at my ex is still valid, although it is never an excuse for my affair. I've finally gotten to the point where I don't care what my ex does anymore. I'm pretty sure he will get re-married and be happy. He can be alot more nurturing and affectionate than most men, and always did his share or more around the house. He does pretty well in the financial department too. I'm sure he considers himself quite a catch, and I guess that is all that is required. He never has and never will have much shame for the things he does that hurt himself or other people. The OM thinks of himself as something special, too. <P>There are alot of things I like about myself, even though it doesn't seem like it. My track record with men is one of the things I don't like about myself, but looking for a new husband or new relationship isn't going to fix that. My shame and embarrassment over my affair and my divorces is something I certainly need to work on, and something I obviously am not searching for any outside person to "fix", hence my decision to become celibate. <P>JL,<BR>Pain from my past...My first husband cheated on me before we got married. For some stupid reason, I thought him asking me to marry him meant that he wanted to be committed to me. I quit my job and left school to move out to be with him. He was gone most of the time, leaving me completely alone in a place I had no family or friends. Sometime after that, I forget how long, he confessed that he had cheated on me just 2 DAYS after we got married. When he was called to the Persian Gulf, I went back to FL to continue my schooling. During those 7 months we were apart, which were hell on me, I later found out that he had slept with over 20 women. Prostitutes, you name it. This was after he got back, after he exposed me to whatever funky diseases he might have picked up, and decided he didn't want to be married anymore. <P>So, skip ahead to 1991, when I met my second husband and I was still trying to finish my degree. Before about 1990, I had been doing it all at night, but had FINALLY managed to save up enough to go full-time and get some decent scholarships at a very good school. Two months after we started dating, he expected me to quit to go to school where he was living. Nope. Wasn't going down that road again. We stayed together and he was actually very supportive of my BS education. I told him very early on about my past, and about my goals, which included at least a Master's. So we get married. I try to go to school at night, but it was tough because my job was pretty demanding, plus my H was also going to school at night and we didn't see each other as much as he or I wanted. I switched to another company where my schedule was less demanding. He said we could move after he graduated and had worked for a couple of years. Imagine my SHOCK when he decided he was going to pitch a fit! This was something we had talked about long, long before. I kept hoping and praying and doing whatever I could to help him see that my educational goals were in his best interest too. After about two years of this, I was spent, drained, depressed, angry, and totally vulnerable to an affair. Looking back, I could see that the signs were there even before we were married. He expected me to quit my school to be with him, but he wasn't offering to quit his job to be with me. Once again, the signs were there and I ignored them. This is why I hate myself. I hate myself for trusting both my first and second husbands. I hate myself for being supportive and marrying two men that took this all for granted. To top it all off, I had an affair, so that husband #2 could walk away and blame me. I hate myself for putting up with his abuse following my confession and being stupid enough to think our marriage would survive my confession. So, that is why I'm never getting married again. I'm ashamed that I now have the "honor" of being twice divorced and have to carry this badge of shame with me the rest of my life. I don't trust myself to make good decisions concerning my relationships with men, so I've chosen to avoid the situation all together and just be celibate. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

Hello dear Student,<P>I should preface this post by saying I've had far too much wine tonite than is probably good for me. But...it was sooooo enjoyable. Suse and I had wine and appetizers by candlelight. Now she's putting our youngest to bed and I'm reading.<P>We talked about you tonite. Yup, we do that kind of thing. We get pretty intense about folks we identify with here on MB. You are one of them. And, we tend to ruminate over what our friends are going thru and whether we can offer anything.<P>TS, we can see you going through some very challenging times. This is a time for you of intense self-evaluation. A real "meaning of life" time. Know what? We both figure you'll come out just fine. You've got real character and substance. Plenty of personal resources.<P>Suse has a theory. Well....more than one. Anyhoo, the one that applies for this conversation is the one which posits that affair happen manytimes during intense personal growth phases in our lives. While we are undergoing rapid change, our mates may not be. Then, we are left with all these unmet needs. It's easy to glom onto someone else when the need is so desparate.<P>Then...there's the aftermath. Ick. Post-mortems are never pretty. But... they can be very instructive.<P>You're learning. You're exploring. And, I admire your courage.<P>Keep at it. You will find peace. You will regain your "centeredness". You're a fine, fine person. Keep challenging yourself and keep posting. You've got folks here willing to help you.<P>Just Learning has offered you some incredibly pithy stuff. Dayam, he makes a lotta sense. Suse and I actually get laughing sometimes when we read his stuff. Thinking out loud, "yeah, that's what I meant to say!" <P>Listen... you are a very unique person with sooooo much to offer this world. Your equilibrium has been very much upset this year. But...you'll get back to it again. If either Suse and I can help in any way...we'd be honored.<P>And...that ain't the wine talking.<P>Be well.

DMac and Suse,<BR>Please re-read the post I made just before yours. I edited it and included some stuff I'd never posted on this site before. <P>For some reason, I didn't talk much about my first marriage here. I thought I'd forgiven my first H, but it looks clear that my "baggage" followed me into marriage #2. Did I make a bad choice for #2? Sometimes I think I did and sometimes I just don't know. I do know now that my depression concerning H #2 having a hard time adjusting had alot to do with my fear from the first. Fear that I was being taken for granted, plus a whole lot of other stuff. Actually, I never feared being cheated on. You'd think that I'd be 10 times more fearful of that after what happened to me. <P>What I learned from my first was that I couldn't control what he did. I stopped worrying about being cheated on because I had convinced myself that if it did happen, I'd know. And you know what? That is true. I have a 6th sense when it comes to people lying to me. That is another reason why I confessed, because I figured my H probably knew deep down too. My first husband tried to make me think I was crazy, but I wasn't. I wasn't going to do that with my second H. My second H told me he had never trusted me, even before we got married. That hurt a great deal too. After everything I did to support him, he STILL didn't trust me. <P>Whenever I had to travel on business,which was rare, I never went to dinner with the guys. I'd always go straight to my hotel room. When I told him about this or that guy at work doing something nice for me, he'd say they were just hitting on me and that I was doing something to invite it. Maybe they liked my work? Maybe they were hitting on me, who knows? But instead of just realizing that was HIS problem, I just internalized it and became more depressed. I told him how much it hurt me, but that didn't stop it. So after awhile I just tuned out alot of his accusations. When I met the OM, and my ex tried to warn me, I blew him off because I honestly was not attracted to the OM. When I DID start to become attracted to the OM, of course I couldn't talk to my H about it, because then I'd just be confirming his suspicions. On top of all that, he said if I ever even had FEELINGS for someone else, we should get a divorce. So, I just sat on it, hoping it would all go away when my H moved to be with me. I ended up sleeping with the OM just a few days after my H was here. So, in a sense, I did to my second husband what my first husband and done to me. <P>You know the story. I went to the OM's apt. to tell him we couldn't be friends anymore or study together anymore. I made the HUGE MISTAKE of telling the OM how I felt because I didn't want him to be hurt that we couldn't see each other anymore. He had never laid a hand on me and we had talked about how important my marriage was to me. I thought I was safe. You know, I've gone back in my mind over all the steps that lead up to my sleeping with the OM, and can see now all the little mistakes that led up to that great big one. I had no idea. I've worked with so many men, and had never ever been attracted to any of them. I'd never had any problems cutting myself off before, which is why I thought I was safe. <P>In away, JL was right about my passion for education. If I had told my H about my feelings for the OM, he would have wanted me to quit. I didn't want to quit, so I just kept it inside. I can also see how my H's behavior pushed me toward the OM. Not an excuse!! Still, I'm afraid my H didn't learn that lesson. That will, most likely, be the legacy he takes into his next relationship if he is not careful.<P>I agree with you two about affairs happening during times of intense personal growth. I have no idea what to do with all these feelings I'm having now. The only thing I know I need to NOT be doing is having any sort of intimate relationships. I still have a hard time functioning most days. Although my concentration and focus seem to be slowly returning, it is not near what it used to be. I'm afraid that if I don't get my act together quick, I'm going to blow my chance at my PhD too. <P>JL said earlier that I need to take care of business, and he's right. I tell myself that everyday. It doesn't help that the OM still goes the the same school. He's been away for about 6 months, but is returning this semester. I can't tell you how much better I've felt knowing that I won't run across him. That is going to change soon. I've committed myself to staying at this school because it is best for me in the long run, but it is damn hard. I've got soooo many reminders all around me. I thank god that many of the people who were around during that time have graduated. I'm sure many suspected. My continuing shame and guilt probably have something to do with that too. There are so many days I want to just quit this school, but honestly, this program is one of the best I've found anywhere. After all I've lost to come here, I just can't bring myself to quit!! <P>Sorry for the long, long post...<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 08, 2000).]

Hi there TS,<P>Morning to ya. Amazing sometimes what a good nite's sleep will do, eh? No more wine fuzzies.<P>This morning, I went back and read my post to you of last nite. Wow, it actually was coherent. How 'bout that? And here the next morning, I can actually say it all applies.<P>I also went back and carefull read this whole thread. Know what I see? I see a person who has incredible talent. I see a person who has incredible drive. I see a person who has intense passion. I see a person who has set such high standards for self.<P>Know what else? I see a person who has made mistakes and is tired. One who is afraid. One who is hurt and vulnerable and needs to heal.<P>You speak of being some freak. I happen to see some person who is very "normal" in reactions to major life changes.<P>So many things you've posted ring out to me. Several times you posted something to the effect that you tried so hard to make this all right and it still did no good. You're disappointed in your H for not keeping the bargain. You're disappointed in yourself for not keeping your own "contract terms" (ie. vows of fidelity). You're conflicted about whether it is "right" to sacrifice soooo much in favor of career. You're angry because you are "different". Shamed.<P>It's what makes you "you". Such talent. Yanoo, it's that combination of traits that makes you wonderful. Not some freak. You are a strong personality, you have many gifts. But you're human, dammit.<P>I hope what I'm going to type next makes sense. Please note carefully... ACCEPT yourself.<P>Don't you see? What you're going thru and have gone thru these last two years is a watershed time in your evolution of "self". Folks here such as our friend Just Learning are a bit ahead of us on the evolution process. Geez, he speaks from such maturity. Go back and read posts such as the one to you on 1/8 at 6:50pm.<P>He's obviously a very talented guy. Probably has lots to do, yet he chooses to spend time thinking about you? And, why? Because he sees sooooooo much potential.<P>Looked at another way? It's mentoring. and that's dayam normal as well.<P>You're no freak. You're talented. You have potential, lots of it. But, there are others who have gone before you with similar personal assets. And, they fight hard to reach every bit of potential they can.<P>You're fight's not with H #1, H #2, your Mom, some as-yet-to-be met guy who might disappoint you. It's with yourself!<P>Don't give up those high standards. Puhhhleeze! Just learn (bad pun) to love yourself for allll that you are, all that you have.<P>Do you ever have to love again? Nobody's going to force you. It's totally up to you. But, if you close yourself off to options to share what you have, and possibly gain back something... then you've never really reached your potential, have you?<P>And THAT would be the real shame.

Hi Dmac,<P>I agree with the things you talked about last night, about affairs happening during times of intense personal growth.<P>Today, as usual, you've hit the nail on the head too. I cried and laughed at the same time. <P>You said:<BR>You're disappointed in your H for not keeping<BR>the bargain. You're disappointed in yourself for not keeping your own "contract terms" (ie. vows of fidelity). You're conflicted about whether it is "right" to sacrifice soooo much in favor of career. You're angry because you are "different". Shamed.<P>All of that is exactly correct!! Shame. That is huge. SOO huge. <P>The part about me not being in a fight with #1,#2, or whoever, but myself. Now that really got my attention. I'll have to think about that somemore. Accept MYSELF. Ohhh,now that will be a hard one. I don't know where to start. <P>I'm flattered too that you and Suse are trying and spending your time to help me. I ordered the books that TCL suggested (Forgive and Forget as well as How good to we have to be?) I'm looking forward to reading those too, especially the second one. So many books are about how to forgive others. Many of the books on infidelity focus on the betrayed, which is good, but when I read those,it only made me feel more guilty and ashamed. <P>I'm really curious to know what you both did to forgive yourselves, and how long did it take? <P>JL,<BR>You have helped me immensely. You have spent a great deal of time trying to help me. JL, if you are out there, thank you so, so very much. Even though I sometimes feel like having a little tantrum here and let my head spin around a few times, please know that I hear you and appreciate you very much!!! I decided today that I'm going to stop *itching about my exes, or men, or whoever. Both of you are very correct that the problem I'm having now is within ME. Both you and Dmac have been very patient and very loving towards me through this process. <BR>

TheStudent,<P>I am here for awhile today but will be traveling for the week. Love those 5:00 am departures . I have read the rest of the posts since I posted to you. You have a lot of people in your corner. I have been thinking a lot about you and what you have said these last few days. So some of what I am going to say will be a repeat of Francis, DuncanMac and Suse and others.<P>First, you should realize something (think you do), we are not really interested in your past. We are interested in your future. Your past is what is affecting you now so knowing something about it is important. <P>Let me tell you something that I preceived from your most recent posts and do the random stream of conscienous stuff in a few minutes . From what you have posted about your first and second marriages, I would say that you have never been married.<P>You have set up house with to guys but never really been married. If you ever do get MARRIED you will realize, it is not about balancing the books. You do this for me and I'll do this for you. You won't have school as one of your emotional partner as you have now and in the past. You will be with this person because it gives you peace and comfort . The idea of balancing the books so to speak will not be there. When could this possibly happen? When school is not an emotional partner that competes with your spouse. When you are set in your profession and your patterns are established. A future spouse will be able to see your life, your work, and you and know what he is getting in a spouse. These things TS will come to you in time. Be patient and don't worry. <P>I listen to some talk shows and one has John Madden on it. He announces NFL football and used to coach the Raiders. His favorite saying is "Don't roll out the hose until you know where the fire is". You are worrying and making decisions about your future that are not necessary and probably not germaine to you when you get to the future.<P>Now for random thoughts. You made the comment about exH #2 showing himself to be a "common" man. That statement struck me on several levels. Let me explain. Has it occured to you that your exH deeply feared who you would be once you got your PhD? I am sure he did. You know why? Because many, many people who obtain PhD's act like complete jerks. I know: all of my professional colleages and several of my recreationl friends have them. Obtaining a PhD, IS an acknowledgement of your deep interest in a subject and profound desire to know something at it's most elemental level. It IS NOT an affirmation of achieving a God given state of grace and social level or even your intelligence. Some of the dumbest people I know are Professors at very prestigous Universities. They have narrowly defined their lifes and removed all else from it. Please realize that obtaining your PhD is not an affirmation of superiority, but an acknowlegement to your commitment. If you do this you will do well in life. However, you must understand that many people can be intimidated and you should avoid that. Your exH feared what you might become and obviously understood you and peoples reaction to you better than you did you did yourself.<P>I guess one of the reasons I worry about you so is that I see you setting limits on the breadth of your soul unnecessarily. The image that comes to my mind is the old Chinese tradition of binding feet. By binding the feet women had beautiful feet, if the were covered and cloaked in beautiful satin slippers. However, the true beauty and functionality of the human foot was destroyed. (I am not really really into a foot fetish here ) I see you binding you soul and your potential in the same way. As DuncanMac said you are growing you have made mistakes. Don't bind yourself with this anger and pledge of celibacy.<P>If you want to remain celibate because it makes getting to your goal of graduating easier do it, but Please don't limit yourself. TS, you hurt your exH very much. He does feel like he failed. You are as guilty as he every was, but you can learn and you can grow. <P>You are not a freak. You are motivated. And this motivation is in a much more positive sense than a woman who is consumed with her beauty to the exclusion of all else. The plastic surgeons are doing very well with these people. Now you see men doing the same. I would think vanity is more freaky than a thirst for knowledge, but then again I am a physicist . <P>TS, you are growing and maturing. You are still young (yes 35 is still young) . You will find that 50 is still young. I did! I can still beat the kids at shooting hoops, although the college son has to be prohibited from dunking . You have so much ahead of you and not that much behind you. Just Learn from the past, don't dwell there. Your shame is exactly the baggage that should be in the trash. Yes you failed. As you pointed out so did you exH's. Learn, go forward, and quit binding yourself as a form of protection. Recall that women with bound feet could not even walk much less run they were very vulnerable. You need the full range of motion in life TS.<P>Enough philosophy and metaphors. TS, pay attention to school, be proud of your gifts, learn from your mistakes, and "don't roll out the hose until you know where the fire is."<P>You will do well TS. Just remember all things in their time.<P><BR>God Bless You<P>JL

JL,<P>I called H #2 "common" because I believe he expected me to put my career goals second to his own. That is common for men to expect and it is common for women to comply, for whatever reason. That doesn't make them "evil", just common. Just like it is common for more women to stay home and take care of the kids rather than the other way around. Since I'm out on the tail end of the bell-curve, it seems, I'm not interested in following traditional gender-specific roles. <BR>These were things we were supposed to be negotiating, but he didn't want to negotiate. He wanted to lay down the law whenever he saw fit, and he wanted me to follow. A dictatorship, be it tyrannical or benevolent, is always easier in the short term than democracy. <P>He was fine with me getting a PhD at the school near where he worked (Florida Institute of Technology). He loved his job and loved where we lived and didn't want to leave. I loved where we lived too, but FIT didn't have the program I wanted. I had put his goals first our entire marriage. He couldn't appreciate that and took that for granted. He EXPECTED that, was my impression. His mom had a Master's and worked, but whenever his dad wanted to pick up and move, they moved. So my ex was common in that particular belief. The fact that he couldn't resolve, perhaps, the way he was raised and the promises he had made whenever he was deeply in love with me was HIS issue. <BR>Marriage is about both people meeting each other's needs, not one person getting their needs met to the exclusion of the other. He made promises he didn't want to keep because he ended up liking his job more than he thought he would and maybe he loved me less than he thought he would. Who knows?<P>Anyway, it doesn't really matter what his reasons were anymore. What does matter is what he does/did when he doesn't get his way, and that was to cut me down, degrade me, and talk down to me instead of dealing with his own fears. I can't exactly point the finger there because I didn't cope well either. However, I was willing to stay married and figure it out. <P>You said:<BR>"A future spouse will be able to see your life, your work, and you and know what he is getting in a spouse."<P>I'm sorry, that makes me feel like a piece of saran wrapped chicken parts. The wonderful part about celibacy is that I don't have to worry about what anybody "thinks he's getting" and I don't have to worry about what I think *I'm* getting. I'm completely free to enjoy them as another human being and could care less where their hose is going (ha, ha). I'm not binding my soul, just me legs mate-y (another pathetic attempt at humor, ha,ha). <P>I love my friends. I find I am a much more loving person when I'm not afraid. In most dating situations, people are wrapped up in the effort of checking off their "list" instead of just *listening* and valuing the other person as just another human being. I have no need for a "list" anymore. It is incredibly liberating. It was a hard decision to come to at first because I had to throw out my old notions of "intimacy". I'm liking it a whole lot now. This decision has helped me love *more* not less, even if that seems hard to understand.

Hi TS--<P>In many ways, your situation reminds me of mine, though <sigh> you're two years younger than me. <P>What I *hear* you say is that self-actualization at this point in your life is worth more to you than anything else. And given your recent divorce, that, my friend, is a good and healthy goal for which to strive.<P>But to me, self-actualization means much more than reaching for certain specific goals--it means learning to accept who we are, foibles and all and yes, to learn to love ourselves from the inside out.<P>How does one do that? By dumping that garbage that serves no purpose (like shame) and working on areas that need work (like pain or qualities you don't especially enjoy having) AND, most importantly, embracing those things about yourself you really do value!!! <P>That last one is difficult, yet to me, it is the most signifcant. We are, after all, our own worst critics and before anyone else, we are quickest to catastrophize the negatives in our lifes or our psyches and write off all that is wonderful about who we are.<P>Like DM, I'm reading of an incredibly strong and intelligent woman here who has much to offer the world, but scant little to offer herself. Be kinder to yourself. Accept that you, we, no one, is perfect. We are, at times, bound to fail in this quest but that means very little...in the end, failure to accept ourselves means only we veered off course a bit. We can get back on course if we know that, and again, accept it.<P>I so understand where you're coming from and often it seems just as I take one step forward in this journey of loving myself, I take another step back...in time, I hope I can change that to two steps forward and one back. LOL. It's all about continued growth, as JL says, and with that comes new opportunities. <P>What struck me in the posts previous to this, especial DuncanMac's was the element of *shame* he spoke of, the one you said hit the nail on the head.<P>Sweetie, there should be no room for shame in this evolutionary game. Sadly there is...and you're right too that there are more books out there about how to forgive others rather than how to forgive yourself.<P>So how is it achieved? I think it's achieved through self-acutalization and a profound understanding that we are HUMAN and bound to fall of the truck once in a while. <P>Once we learn not to catastophize our human errors, I think, I hope the lesson of loving ourselves becomes a little easier learned.<P>I'm not trying to push you into another relationship and at this point, whatever you *feel* you must do to accept and love yourself is really the best course. I just hope you will embrace life and all it offers--whatever *all* comes to mean to you.<P><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P>