Hi gang,<BR>Well - here's the promised update. H talked to OW sun nite (on the phone from his apt.he tells me) - and was not able to tell her no contact. He came home to me afterward and did not stay at his place. And he has been here since then - even though he has made noises about needing to stay at his place occasionally for some "space". I think this is bogus, but haven't said so - just smiled sweetly and asked if we could talk about it if that is what he decided so as to agree on how to handle the kids questions.<P>I learned about the "still friends" bit Tues after my first counseling apt. with Steve. On the one hand, I was glad for H's honesty (and his commitment to me to stop lying about it - although his word is pretty worthless at this point) but I feel so hopeless and disappointed. In many ways this is the same thing he has said to me so many times and it always fails. In dec when I took him back on the condition that the affair was over and he would be honest about contact, he lied. Now he says he won't lie anymore, but he always says that - and always lies.<P>Last night he told me about 4 email exchanges with her over the last 2 days when I asked. I believe he is being truthful - so far, 3 days in to this….so I will give it some time. I will know when he starts lying and I do not wish to be lied to anymore. I guess I would feel differently if he at least were committed to no more contact with OW - and then occasionally slipped up and told me about it. He doesn't even seem to want to try to stop contact just "minimize" it.<P>Now, on to the counseling. Steve says I need to do my best Plan A ever - still!! I guess I wanted him to say I could sedate my H and brainwash him and he would give me step by step instructions on how to do this- but no such luck. Because of H's continued waffling and the continued contact and length and intensity of the affair I have to really focus on behaviors that will cause H to fall back in love with me. He also said I must avoid any education or trying to enlighten H about the affair. And absolutely no selfish demands or judging/sarcasm. As far as working on me, I should try to practice not just rushing in with solving a problem, but focus on empathizing and validating and try to develop a new approach to interacting with H in this way. He said my rational approach has gotten me this far - that most women wouldn't have been able to plan A under the circumstances I described for over a year, but now I really needed to back off on the "fixing" mentality and develop more empathy - because the problem solving is probably driving H crazy.<P>He was very good and intuited my major strengths and weaknesses really quickly. He also asked that I tell H I had called Steve and pass on the request for H to call. I have done this and H has the number, but not call yet as far as I know.<P>So…I am back where I know I need to be if I want my marriage. Solid plan A. Hardest thing I have ever done - I just have to keep in mind Steve's motivating words that I am doing this to eventually find myself in a great marriage. <P>On top of it, my personal counselor, when she heard H was lying again after having promised me to be honest about contact last month asked me to think about why I keep putting myself in this emotionally abusive situation and that I was perhaps behaving like a battered wife - unable to break free, always rationalizing and believing that things will be different even though there is no evidence to support it. I have also backed down on things I said I needed (H has to commit to no contact w/OW before I would agree to reconcile) and I also said last month "if he lies again it is finished". Well he did and yet here I am still hanging around. Ouch. <P>I do feel I have lost my rudder to some extent. Those of you who have seen me here over the past year - what do you think? I read Animac's post and it reminded me of things my own friends say. I know my friends think that the month I have had H back I have looked sadder and been more subdued than when I was on my own. I am having a hard time ignoring this while he continues to be cold and distant and still in contact with OW. I know this is normal, but I am thinking I may have really drained my lovebank with this year long plan A, and now when I really do have a chance (do I?) I am just exhausted and weak and have no boundaries…<P>This isn't meant to be depressing. But I am having a harder time than ever balancing plan A with my own needs. Any thoughts would be welcome.<P>Starpony<BR>

Just hated to see no replies. Your post is so thought provoking.<P>I don't have good input because I haven't been there or done that.<P>It was all I could do to stay sane in my own situation that was NOTHING compared to yours.<P>However, maybe it would help to define the root cause of your own misgivings.<P>Why do you want your marriage so badly. Is it because of dedication, maybe your love and/or your past good experiences? Or is it one more of contraint, you know, partially for the kids sake or because you believe in staying faithful to your vows. It is probibly a combination, of course, but if it falls more on the constraint side the continued battle is probibly even more emotionally exhausting because maybe you are fighting for what you think you should have rather than striving for something you want. Does that make any sense?<P>What is your vision of your reconciled marriage? Do you think that vision is attainable? If you have nagging doubts that your H will be able to fulfil your needs and hopes even if he does commit to the marriage, it may be more exhausting.<P>Does your vision of a new single life look inviting or intreging or do you fear or dislike it?<P>What do you need to do to lable your efforts as a success? I mean if you feel you have given all you have to give and you are not coming closer to achieving your desired outcome, can you base your success on the effort you put in individually? Or do you feel like your efforts where in vain or you are a failure if you can not manipulate the outcome?<P>Just a few things to think about.<P>Stay strong!<P>Maybe it is always darkest before dawn and you are around the corner from some breakthoughs. I hope that is the case<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Through my problems with my W, I learned an important lesson: that if I became a beacon of Love for her....I mean the overflowing cup of UNconditional love that is truly the goal in any relationship, I could outshine any light given off by any other man. Because I know I can love her more than anyone else, that is exactly what I did. Of course this meant swallowing a hell of a lot of pride and forgiving many transgressions against me. I had to submit my will to hers and simply out-love and out-attract everyone else.<P>You know what? It worked. My wife and I are doing great and I know without a doubt that the love I provide her is far beyond the meager feelings of interest any little punk could give her. And slowly...that love has come back to me as I knew it would.<P>I remain on this forum to share this message and any other that helped me get to where I am. All our situations are not the same, but the answer IS. Love.<P>I totaly agree with what S.H. said. Plan A...and the last thing your husband should think about at night is how wonderful you are.<P>Also, I think that your personal counselor has issues of her own. You choose to be where you are because you have your values in the right place. It is selfish for a spouse to think that they are above staying committed to their vows even when the other spouse has neglected theirs.<P>Remember that when our love banks seem dry, they are automatically refilled with the love of God...all you have to do is pray for it.<P>God bless you. I wish you the best.<P>Peter<P>------------------<BR>"Love isn't someplace that we fall, it's something that we do"--Clint Black<BR>

Starpony,<P>I'd encourage you to stick with the Plan... Steve will help you fine tune things (he always did with me---no matter how well I thought I was doing, there was always room for improvement, and he'd bring that up in a motivating manner).<P>I'd also encourage you NOT to use your personal counselor right now---getting conflicting opinions can be very hard to deal with. I used Steve as a personal counselor and he's a great one---who can put the interests of the marriage along with the interests of the individual.<P>Towards the end of my Plan B, I don't think Steve had a lot of hope that my marriage would end up reconciled. But we were still working on making ME a success, regardless of the state of the marriage. He can do that with you too.

Starpony,<P>Ooooh, you touched a nerve with this...<P>Harvey: "Be a good Plan A soldier" versus<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>think about why I keep putting myself in this emotionally abusive situation and that I was perhaps behaving like a battered wife - unable to break free, always rationalizing and believing that things will be different even though there is no evidence to support it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am in the same spot. My W continues to say one thing and do another. Each time I think "no more or else". This is starting to eat away at my self-esteem, sense of dignity, sense of justice, etc. It seems so unhealthy! <P>Am i just being an enabler now? Keeping the home life stable and doing Plan A just seems to hide the emotional cost of the continued betrayal, allowing it to continue - like numbing your arm would allow you to continue cutting it with a knife because you can't feel the pain.<P>Separation/divorce starts to sound more and more attractive because of the emotional toxicity of the marriage environment now. <P>Aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!!!!!

Maybe it all boils down to the idea your are comparing the costs/payoff.<P>Assuming the marriage will have a chance to recover (ultimately out of your control to the point that H makes his own choices), what price is too high to seek the payoff?<P>I sure that is a different answer for every situation and I wouldn't even presume to tell you what yours should be.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

2sad4words:<P>One reason that I'm big with the "give Steve Harley a call" is that Steve can judge where you are, what effort you've put into it, and how much more you can take. And I think he's surprisingly accurate, too.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Am i just being an enabler now? Keeping the home life stable and doing Plan A just seems to hide the emotional cost of allowing it to continue - like numbing your arm would allow you to continue cutting it with a knife because you can't feel the pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sure, Plan A seems like that sometimes. But you should be focusing on working on YOUR behaviors---these are things that you need to change, regardless of whether your marriage works out or not (unless you want to divorce and spend your days living in a cave somewhere). You are working on YOU---but for your marriage's benefit, as well as that of your [currently ungrateful] spouse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Separation/divorce starts to sound more and more attractive because of the emotional toxicity of the marriage environment<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<P>That's a sign that it's getting to be plan B time. But remember that separation and divorce are also traumatic experiences as well---there isn't an easy escape from a marriage in this state. And working on building it back by working on your behaviors is (IMO) the best way to go about it.<P>If you're having all these problems, you should consider giving Steve a call.<BR> now.

Starpony,<P>I can understand how you feel. Yesterday, my regular cousnelor basically asked me the same type questions. <P>I am conflicted with what he says and what the Harleys espouse. But, as k does point out...PlanA is not to stop the affair, nbut to build a better "ME". I continue ot forget that - all the efforts are NOT about stopping the affair. It just seems like we SHOULD get something like that in return for all our hard work.<P>You, at least, does have a H who wants you and your marriage. He hasn't sorted it all out, yet, and he defiinitely hasn't quite figured out that marriage to you and relationship with the OW are NOT synonymous!<P>If you can muster the strength, hang in a while longer with Steve. He definitely beefed up my motivation. But, I do understand how you just feel so beaten down sometimes. Yet, in all fairness, you are jsut starting with Steve and should give yourself a little time trying that.<P>Best of luck...still praying for you!<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Starpony,<BR>Throughout the indignities, throughout the humiliation, throughout the endless anxiety. I knew one thing very clearly, although I'd not done a good job showing it, I really loved my husband. I loved how he used to make me feel, I used to love being with him, I loved his sense of humor, I loved how he was with the kids, I loved how he wanted to fit into my life and a bunch more things.<P>I knew what a really good person he was and I wanted to be with that person again and forever. Maybe it was stupid optimism but I knew that hidden, deep down, was that sweet, kind and loyal good doobie husband of mine and NO-One else was going to get him.<P>The most difficult part for me was understanding and dealing with the fact that I contributed to "the kind of person he'd become" - "I enabled that, I helped make that happen". I didn't show that I cared for him in the terms/conditions that he needed to see. <P> Honestly, it gave me a different kind of focus and it helped me shield the not-so-constructive comments by others.<P>Yeah, he still did X and I still did Y but what was there when we married was still there and I was wanting to see it again.<P>-Tina <P>

Hi *Pony,<P>I probably won't be of much help, but I can definitely empathize with you, if that's any consolation. <P>Did Steve say anything about whether it would be better for your H to stay at home or return to the apartment? I know when my H was still at home, & I was doing the Plan A thing, it was so hard to have the constant signs of OW waved in my face. I know I didn't do the "perfect" Plan A. I just could not keep the emotions, or tears reigned in. Especially because of our situation, where I was supporting him, & he was off galavanting around while I was at work. It was almost too much to bear.<P>Once he moved out, however, I was better able to control my emotions. In other words, what I didn't see, didn't hurt me. I think one of the reasons he moved out was that he could no longer deal with the guilt.<P>Anyway, I'm so mixed up that I don't know if I'm in Plan A, or Plan B at the moment! I guess it's Plan B because we are separated, but I still talk to him when HE calls. So, it's not the "perfect" Plan B. I guess I can't do anything right??!!!<P>You are much further along than me, so I cannot give you any advise. But, I do know that once he moved away, it was much, much easier for me to do Plan A. <P>Although, it is more of a "Plan Aloof", than a Harley Plan A. I backed off completely, & totally. I concentrated on ME, and began to rebuild my life. I don't call him, or contact him in any way. I do, however, chat with him when he calls me, & I come across as being interested in him and how his life was going. I tell him I love him, but only AFTER he tells me first. I also make it rather difficult for him to reach me. When I miss his calls at work, I never return them. I also had the locks to the house rekeyed after he moved out, & I think this shocked the [censored] out of him.<P>Just a few thoughts, I would share with you. I'm not out of the woods yet, either.

This is a good thread for me. I have been having a little conflict between what my personal counseler was telling me and Plan A too. I think she is more of a presonal counseler and less experianced with marriage counseling. I gave her some of Harleys books to read and then I told her I just wanted to work on me with her. i know I need to feel better about myself and learn to communicate better so I think that will work out better then getting conflicting messages about the marriage. You must do what you feel is right, Starpony, but you probably should'nt try to work with 2 different plans or you will all be confused. Lora

I have read some interesting thoughts here,I still have problems navigating around plan A .How do I deal with the anguish I feel when my H shall go on a trip to see OW soon (she <BR>lives abroad).How can I be loving when I have to greet him from being with her???Please advice!!!!

Thank you all so much for your support and thoughtful replies. H and I had a great evening last night (well I thought so anyway) We exercised together, had a nice evening with the kids and good conversation. But as soon as there was a mometary lapse in our lively conversation (I mean like a 30 second lapse!)it was back to Mr. cold and distant. Still, these are positive baby steps. But that lack of intimacy is back again and I know this pattern so well. It is probably only a matter of days before he tells me he needs some time to himself and says he is going back to the apartment. Maybe I am just being pessimistic, but the signs are all there. He complains about how much pressure he is under from the family to work out the marriage, how he feels he would be an outcast if we divorced and how no one understands him. I did so well listening and empathizing yesterday and I truly do feel for him. He is so torn between doing what is right and doing what feels good (even though he knows rel. with OW might not last and it was not always good!) <P>I have been improving my plan A with Steve's help. And I am committed to working with Steve H. at least through March when H will move to his new job. Will keep you all posted.<P>FHL-<BR>Wow - good questions! I want my marriage because I love my H madly. We compliment each others strengths and weaknesses and make a terrific team. At one time our marriage was warm and supportive and passionate and I fully believe we can get there again. He is a terrific father. I'm an optimist and I am also stubborn as a mule so that should address the rest of your question. But yes, I do fear that even if we reconcile that my H will be unable to overcome the demons of this affair. And single life - while it looks exhausting - sometimes seems like I would have a better chance for happiness… I can live with knowing I gave this marriage my best shot and honestly will not feel I have failed if the desired outcome doesn't happen. I know this is out of my control. Thank you for your insight.<P>Hanging - I am so glad this has worked for your and your wife. My H does think about how wonderful I am and tells me often, but so far that is not inspiring his passion - that feeling is still reserved for OW.<P>K - Thanks for the insight. I do get confused and may stop my personal counseling for a few months.<P>2 sad - I keep going by remembering this is just one part of the plan and if I really can't take it anymore there is always plan B. You can do this too. It is so difficult but plan A did get me where I am now. My H wanted a divorce when he moved out in August.<P>RMA - I do have a better me through all this. I am not convinced I have an H who wants me and the marriage. I have an H who is too afraid to do anything else.<P>Tina - yes, exactly. Thank you for putting my thoughts in to words.<P>Sidney - I am going to talk to Steve about this next week. (If H hasn't unilaterally decided before then to move out). I replied on your thread about your H's call. Hang in there.<P>Lora - You are so right. I've decided to take a break from personal counseling for a while.<P>Nabilqad - See Tina's reply above. I was able to do plan A because I realized I did love my H but did a lousy job of showing him for a long time. This did not excuse his bad choices, but I did want a chance for him to see that I could show my love for him. However, you cannot do this indefinitely while the affair is ongoing. You are not superhuman. Are you in couseling?<P>Thanks all,<BR>Starpony<BR>

I'm going to try and beat this with a dead horse !<P>I, too met regularly with Harley. He, too, saw signs that my battle was uphill on the slippery slope. My husband wanted a divorce, he had already organized our finances, our living situation and our family friends. He desperately wanted out.<P>In my favor was that the kids truly love their mommy (no big secret why...lots of hugging and kissing and I spend the most time with them) and he knew they would be with me. In addition, his family loves me dearly and he readily admits most probably more than him. <P><BR>The bottom line for Plan A was that it allowed me time to PROVE THAT I REALLY WASN'T ANY DIFFERENT NOW THAN WHEN HE MARRIED ME ...JUST HAD TO PICK UP A FEW NEW TRICKS. It was enough time that the LUSTER of a different life seemed a little less shiny and a heck of alot more work. (not to mention all the costs that were attached.)<P>I still believe strongly in Plan A. However, Harley said early on it would take two ingredients 1) that I meet all his needs and 2) that he be willing (hopeful) and open to feel that way about me again.<P>If you love them still and they are a genuine person, a good person, a person you enjoy being with ...then you're back to Plan A until you can no longer stand it.<P>-Tina

Tina-<BR>sorry, didn't see your reply earlier. I appreciate your input so much. I just don't know if we will ever have the second ingredient your mention "that H be willing and open to feel that way about me again". H told me directly this weekend he had fallen out of love with me and that even before the affair he stopped looking at me as anything more than a partner and mother. I know that the only way this will change is in the way you (and Steve)describe - PLAN A. I have to do my part, but it does require that willingness on H's part. Right now, he just sees it as too much work .<P>He has said he will call Steve - I hope he does...<P>Thanks so much Tina for your encouragement,<BR>Starpony