I wrote this as a reply, but then thought I haven't seen any threads on the differences between the sexes, might be helpful to raise it since I think it is key to getting along.<P>TS, it took me a long time to accept it, but I do believe men NEED to be taken care of. No, it is definitely not equality. But needs are not wants, that is just the way they are. I used to be more a proponent of equality, but I've come to the place that I cannot deny the built in differences in the sexes. Not only Harley, but Men are from Mars...but mostly my own experience. Men are very different with a different set of needs they no more asked for than we asked for ours.<P>Fathers are very important, but they cannot provide the nurture that mom provides, at least not most men. Women can make good money these days, but we're not wired the same way there either. Worrying about the financial provision for the kids is the first thing my h thinks of, and it's not because of the roles we've chosen. I can only say I really see he's from another planet in many ways.<P>I think unless we see there are serious and valid differences, it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate, let alone accept each other.<BR>

schizzo,<BR>It seems you are happy with the way things are between men and women. That is great. I mean it. You will have a much easier time in this life than me. I'm pretty much a freak. I'm not happy with the way things are, and till men "evolve" into creatures that can be nurturing too, I just don't need them. I was not put on this planet to serve ANY man that is not willing to meet me halfway in everyway. Why bother? If I just want sex, I can go pick up someone from the local bar<BR>if I really wanted to bad enough. Or college, that is where I met the OM. Ok. baaaad joke. Friendship/intimacy? I can get that from my friends and family. All I can say to any guy is "what have you got that is worth my time and attention?" I don't need them for money either. The only thing I ever needed from a man was TRUE partnership, but that seems to be very difficult to find. <P>I only had one sister. My dad did all the things with us he'd do with a son. Sports, truck toys, rough-housing. When I was a kid and someone was picking on me, he taught me how to fight (of course, only if the other kid threw the first punch). When the car needed fixing, we were out there with him. I've done just about everything on a car except drop a transmission or open up<BR>the block. My mom taught us how to cook and sew. I believe the differences between men and women are mostly taught, not innate. I can do anything a man can do except pee standing up,and won't waste my time with any man who can't do everything a woman can do except bear a child. If that man doesn't exist, I'm perfectly happy being alone over the other alternative.<P>I really don't resent women for staying home. Maybe I wish I were a guy(?)since I seem to be "acting" like one. Well, I don't WISH I were a guy, just wish I had all the perks guys seem to have, that's all. Your H is lucky to have you. <P>I read "Mars and Venus Starting Over", and although it had some good points, it mainly just served up alot of old tired stereotypes. I didn't read the original book. Supposedly, the men were supposed to have alot of sexual relationships when trying to recover, but just make sure you tell them you are not ready to commit. The women were encouraged to date alot of men, but just don't sleep with them. Ok, so the men are encouraged to have potentially dangerous and irresponsible sex with multiple partners, and the "chaste" woman is supposed to be virtuous. Um. Hello? This is the 00's now? No birth control is perfect? Condoms don't protect against all diseases? Could someone please ask the author who are all the women this libido-centered recovering man is supposed to be having sex with? Barf, barf, and more barf. Not to mention he'd been married before "It just didn't work out" and now he is with his "soulmate". Hmmm. I've heard that soulmate stuff before, usually from some cheatin' fool. Pretty fishy!!<BR>

But you nailed the point where we differ - I am convinced the differences are innate. There have been so many studies done, and I see it in my own kids.<P>You probably don't accept the Adam and Eve story as factual. But God made man and he was not complete. Then He made woman as the perfect complement. We are not here to serve men any more or less than they are to serve us, it's just different. And their instincts of provision and protection are not learned. They are so deeply ingrained. My h really is a great partner. I hope you can find one.<P>Maybe that is why this is so hard. He's the only person I've ever really trusted. He has his own issues midlife crisis, whatever, but I also think I put him under enormous pressure putting him on a pedestal. Now we are more equal than ever, as we both see how<BR>much we need each other's help to get by. I think the POJA is the most equalizing principle I've ever seen. Now we have to agree - enthusiastically. He was never comfortable with the male as the leader role.<P>I was referring to the original book that talks about male/female differences. Haven't read the one you mentioned but your analysis is right to the point.

I'm glad you are happy with your H. There are many times I wish I were more "normal" or "average" or whatever word you want to use. I'm probably way out on the bell curve as far as typical male/female behavior goes. I honestly don't want to "find a man", what a drag, but I do enjoy talking about them. <P>I could never imagine letting some guy totally support me financially. Even when I came to school, I'd already told myself I wouldn't come unless I had a full-scholarship. Maybe I wouldn't have had my affair if I was more dependent on him, but how sad is that? Just using him. <P>He was convinced that it wouldn't have happened if we had kids, but just about everyone on this website has kids. Anyway, when my H decided to leave, I didn't worry too much financially because I had a full-scholarship. That was one of his biggest gripes, that I didn't trust him to support me. You see, if you don't need one for money, don't (necessarily) need one for friendship, and don't need one for sex or kids, there is not a whole lot left for leverage. They say that one of men's needs is to feel needed, and that seems kinda lame to me. Feels like a control/dominance thing. He said he was afraid I could live without him. Well, duh! <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 07, 2000).]

schizzo,<BR>Although I agree that some of the emotional and behavioral differences between men and women are biologically based, I think a lot of it is culturally ingrained. I have 5 daughters and one son, and if one more person assumes that my son is the one who bounces off the walls I think I will strangle them. There are some interest and skill differences that I think are biologically based, but not that many.<P>My father was one of the most nurturing people I have known. My H and I used to agree that it was beneficial for at least one parent to be home with the children, but I would have loved to have been the one out working, except when they were nursing babies. He would have liked that arrangement as well, but his field paid more than mine.<P>I found it interesting when we were living in an Amish area. The Amish are supposed to be a patriachal society, but what stood out was how involved fathers were with their kids. I rarely saw the Amishman who was our neighbor without one of his preschoolers with him. One of the main reasons that farming as an occupation is held in such high regard is that it allows the father to be home with the family. <P>I think everyone needs to be taken care of sometimes. And needs are not wants, but I think Harley's needs are really wants - maybe very important wants, but wants, non the less. No one ever died from lack of recreational companionship. I think calling them needs just fuels justification on the part of betrayers, who can convince themselves that they couldn't help having the affair because their "needs" weren't met. "I had the affair because my needs weren't met" sounds a whole lot different than "I had the affair because I didn't get what I wanted."

Nellie, read my response on your thread as well...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And needs are not wants, but I think Harley's needs are really wants -<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>NO,NO,NO... this is a major issue. No, I won't die from lack of sex or affection, but I won't thrive. What was it, Maslow's hierarchy of needs - first we must satisfy survival, hunger, shelter. But when these are satisfied, we feel the other ones.<P>The crucial distinction is that wants are my choice, can be turned on and off. Psychological needs drive us. Some of us are better at denying ourselves. I focused more on my kids, I didn't run out and have an affair. But I was hungry and empty.<P>Maybe it does give fuel to the betrayers, but His Needs/Her Needs was written to help marriages not to give the infidels justification.<P>Did you read Essyboo's thread. She wished he would say it was because she wasn't meeting his needs, then she could DO something to prevent it. But it's not that simple. We cannot control or take responsibility for the behavior of another person. In my case, I finally realized it was many things. He didn't like the way his life was going and wanted to feel "alive". We had read all this stuff before and both knew how affairs end up, but I guess now he knows from experience. I actually believe I am less likely to go through this again by staying with him than by remarrying.<P> <P>

Nellie, what you have said makes a lot of sense. However, this past year, not just because of the affair, which really had little to do with anything, I've come to the conclusion, I've come to believe that wants and needs are pretty fine lines.<P>If you define a need as all you need to survive in this world, then yes, recreational companionship would be a want. But if describe needs more broadly to include what inspires you, or defines you, what brings satisfaction or passion (not sexual passion) in your life, then the line gets a bit blurred. <P>And for the record, I take the needs thing seriously from a relationship standpoint and certainly unmet needs makes a relationship vunerable in many ways, not just affairs. Therefore, now that we are so enlightened we should of course strive to meet each other's needs in a marriage.<P>However, I do not see unmet needs as a green light for an affair (otherwise I would have had one way before my H) nor do I think meeting your partners needs is a guarantee of faithfulness. I am not saying someone that betrays is forever betrayer, but at the time of betrayal, they are accountable for their own actions. Nothing justifies an affair, although very little can not be forgiven is forgiveness is sought. A person's own character, values and belief structure plays into all of this, too.<P>So Nellie, I agree with what you are saying, but I am have relabeled what I thought were my H's wants and hobbies into real needs that need to be supported....not because I'm afraid he'll cheat again, but because I want him to be as happy in life as possible.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL, I enjoy reading your posts, you have a lot of wisdom.

Nellie,<BR>Through millions and millions of years, I'm convinced both mothers and fathers spent a great deal of time around their children. I agree that agricultural communities tend to share the child care a bit more. There was no such thing as a "working mom" or "stay at home" mom. All women worked and all men worked. It was only with the advent of "technology" were men forced to leave their children and their home to go work, and women were told they had to choose between their children and some form of livelihood. A big guilt trip is put on the woman who wants to work AND have children. <P>I'm glad you agree with me about the boys vs.girls thing. My ex's dad does just about all of the cooking. He really enjoys it! So when my nephew was little, he wanted to play with the Fisher-Price kitchen set they set up next to the kitchen, just like Grandpa. As he got older, he got more into the "boy" type of toys, like building sets. But guess who he asked to help him set it up? Me! Aunt D, because I was always the one who was into those types of toys and he'd watch me putting them together on X-mas day. I know a little boy that has a doll. His parents are kinda groovy. They are Wiccan.

I believe that the key to understanding people is to realize everyone is different. Not just men different from women, but individual men different from other men and individual women different from other women. When you start judging groups of people the same (like male and female steortypes) problems occur. The way to get along with people that are different from yourself is to understand that just because someone is different does not mean they are wrong or bad and that you are good or right. They're just different. This whole concept is what causes problems with people around the world. It causes problems with marriages, it causes problems between different religions, it causes problems between different races. <P>I belief men can and are nurturing. I also know women that are not nurturing. Judging someones nurturing level based on sex is a prejudice that can cause problems.<P>The concept that men need to be taken care of is one that could also cause problems. Individuals are responsible for taking care of them selve's. When one enters into a relationship like a marriage, one or the other partners is not responsible to take care of the other. They both are responsible to respect the other persons wants or needs. Hopefully they both will be willing to give and take as part of the relationship. When one person feels responsible for doing all the giving or "taking care of the other person" problems occur. This I know from experience.<P>My 2cents for what it is worth.

Okay, my turn... <P>I too have some strong opinions on this topic. Conclusions based, of course, on my own experiences and observations. This is a very interesting topic, one I'm glad I caught. Haven't been on all week due to work.<P>Learned or innate? It's not an either/or, it's both. Obviously there are some fundamental biological differences between the sexes. It's difficult to act the same when our body chemistries are different. And, I believe strongly that each individual's body chemistry plays a great role in how they behave.<P>But, we learn so much. From our family of origin. From our culture. From school, counselling, friends, etc. I can tell you that although I was raised in a patriarchal, conservative, waspy sort of family, there are some key differences between my father and I. Some are chemical, some are learned. Not to say I don't have some similarities with my father for the same reasons.<P>Most variants of "American" culture today accept and encourage greater similarity between male and female. TS, you're no freak. I've met many, many women who shared some of your interests, personality traits, and career path. Now then, if you'd been "you" 100 years ago? THEN you would have been a freak. <P>My belief system includes some Jungian principles such as accepting that we have "man" and "woman" in each of us (animus and anima). And yup, some people receive more encouragement to express both sides. I kinda like that.<P>I cook. I clean. Suse does house fix-it projects. I do the grocery shopping, she pays the bills. But, we also fill some more classical roles in our family. No biggie. And, I don't think either of us are freaks <P>Actually, I think our society is going in the right direction. The opportunity to choose one's various roles SHOULD be normal.<P>I will agree that statistically there are many more women than me who exhibit those nurturing, sensitive traits more obviously. But, I do know a LOT of men who appear to be more nurturing many times than their wives. Consider:<P>46 y/o father of 6 y/o boy. Father is PHD physicist, mother stay-at-home mom (many interests, just not "career" right now). Father gets kid up, puts them to bed, nuzzles kid when he's hurt, etc. We think it's pretty normal.<P>47 y/o father of 3 girls 18, 16, 13. Divorce 2 years ago when wife left him because he was "too boring". Ex-football player Div I level. Business professional. 2 of the girls now live with him. Growing up, he wrestled with them, played bball with them, etc.<P>40 y/o father of 5 y/o son, 4 y/o daughter. Software guru. Wife (a very bright, dynamic woman) runs off with another guy leaving kids. Claims he's too passive for her but is a better caretaker than her. Ummm, that was my OM.<P>So, of these friends of mine, who is the nurturer? Anyhoo, I'm sure you have your own experiences. Heck, there are friends among us here. Chris is doing a fair dang job of it! (hi CA) <P>Self-confidence. <P>Huh? Where am I going with this? What I'm saying is that the more we mature, the more we get to know ourselves, the more we accept the different facets of ourselves, the more comfortable we can be with BOTH the "man" and "woman" in each of us.<P>Comprende? Interesting topic!