My W and I debated about love over the holidays. She feels that she cannot love me right now. She doesn't trust me. When I told her that I love her on New Years Eve am, she even stated that she doesn't trust me. She says that I've tuned out for so long, she doesn't know if and/or when it might return.<P>I said that I love her. She says that she doesn't know how that can be since I don't trust her, that I've hurt her by the accusations of an affair, ruined her "friendships" and that I've become controlling. (Please see my profile if you're not familiar with the backstory).<P>She claims that she's not really ready for romantic love right now, and isn't currently looking for it. (God only knows what that means.)<P>She then commented that she doesn't even remember that our love (when things were going great) was even passionate. I thought we had a passionate, realistic love for one another, not some fantasy based reality that would burst over a short period of time. She did not confirm my assessment, but also didn't deny it. <P>I think she's suddenly reflecting back and looking for something we didn't have. Almost a romantic fantasy or dream. She continues to claim that the EA that I confronted her about (and the OM) was merely a friendship. She also claims that it should not be strange that she would sign off on a note to a (other sex) friend with "I love you" or "I miss you".<P>I want to believe her. I really do, but it's hard since I think she's in a state of heavy denial. This "passionate love" comment is just the latest twist in what was a (unfortunatly) memorable holiday.<P>What do you guys think? What is "passionate love" for you, and is it reality or fantasy based?<P>--keystone

I passionately loved my H for about 15 out of the nearly 20 years together...even after his affairs... but not after my affair.<P>We met on a blind date, married six weeks later... it was physical attraction and his need to take care of me that brought him to me, and it was physical attraction and his ability to show me his dark poetic side that drew me to him...<P>Lovemaking was hot and heavy, although dwindled as soon as the babies came (3 babies within 3 years, the first one born 15 months after the marriage)... but the "passion" remained. We were passionate about everything, from religion to politics to lovemaking... now it just feels kinda numb. I don't know the exact turning point for me, but I can tell you one thing that I've discovered with therapy:<P>I passionately love my H, but it is a different kind of passion. It is a deep, comfortable, soulful love that I believe takes the place of that hot, sweaty, gotta see him NOW kind of love that we had for years. I think it, in and of itself, was a bit of a fantasy. I thought, and so did David, that the physical passion would sustain us always. Wrong. It is the other, deeper kind of love that holds us together, that brings us back through the pain, that connects us...<P>Will we make it? I don't know... but I will ALWAYS LOVE MY HUSBAND... with a deep abiding love...<P>ALWAYS.<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Dear Keystone,<P>Deciding whether passionate love exists depends on your definition of it. What do you think it is?<P>I think that idyllic passionate love is a deep, true love fueled by an intense, firey interest in one another. Another type may be based more on aspects of sexuality than personality, but it can develop into something more solid and lasting. To my way of thinking the latter is what begins many marriages. As I said, the hope is that the partners are both mature and centered enough to allow it to grow and blossom into the next region. <P>Passionate love and comfortable love are two different feelings. In both, you care immensely for your partner. But in the more settled, comfortable love, things are more laid back, more relaxed. I think passion can develop into comfort, and I think it usually does after having known someone for years. <P>Personally, I have a passionate and comfortable love for my husband. It is not constantly as intense as when we first began, but there are moments ... <P>While I was betraying him, I still loved him, but there was no passion or heat or lust or drive involved. It eventually came back - and is still coming about, but it didn't happen as quickly this time as when everything was new and unknown. The abandon and freshness isn't as apparent. But it is wonderful re-discovering him and us again. Better this time actually because I know now what I'd be missing had I not turned my behavior around. <P>I think any love we have in our lives is phenomena that is not to be taken for granted. Human beings aren't perfect, so our love cannot be either, no matter how intense or who or what it's for. Just because something isn't handed to you in a perfect wrapped up package like soap opera stars get doesn't mean it's worthless. Most things in our lives that are worth having are things that we have had to work long and hard for. It's a cliche, I know, but it's apt here. Kind of like comparing the shininess of a brand new Value-City coffee table to the fine, deeper patina of a Chippendale chair hiding in the attic under layers of dust. Which is more valuable? Ask your wife that, wonder what she'll say? <P>Khyra

To expound a bit more on what I just said, very few marriages will ever sustain the spark and fuel of two teenagers rolling around in the back seat of a Buick. But that isn't what being married is all about. That's why there are age-laws surrounding the institution of wedlock. <P>So, to make a long story even longer, (I'm good at that) passion is a wonderful element to have in marriage. So is a million dollars, tax-free. If we should all be so lucky!<P>K

Thanks for the replies --<P>After reading both posts, I am starting to wonder about how I would define "passionate love" and how my W would. I suspect they are different definitions, certainly since we're now in trouble with the marriage.<P>It just worries me that she's now seeking some fantasy based image of love. In my mind, it'll never exist anymore with us. It'll only come through some outside source.<BR>Sad, but I think very true.<P>NB -- I'm just convinced that, maybe in retrospect, she's desiring to confirm that the "hot and heavy" love existed. It did a while ago -- a while ago. These last few years, it's been non-existant. Memories are hard to find these days. <P>Khyra -- Thanks for your post. I agree that the more hard fought things are those worth keeping, but I'm starting to wonder. A stupid (and ment to be rhetorical)question: What even is love? <P>For so long, we shared a close friendship and soooo much in common. Now, we dread even being around each other. We've seemingly crossed over that thin line between love and hate.<P>It's just so wierd cause I do love her. In spite of it all. Maybe I'm just fooling myself and afraid of what a future without her holds.<P>-- keystone

Sorry Keystone, but it does sound like she is lying about an EMA. If you want to read about what I went through for a month before he came clean, read my reply to Nellie1's thread. Part of it was him feeling like he had never been passionate about me. It just wasn't true!!!<P>Yes, there is a more fundamental unselfish love that binds us together, but if I've learned anything from this mess, it's that feelings cannot be ignored. I have always believed marriages can and should be passionate. I recently learned my h thought that was not possible - partly explains why he looked elsewhere.<P>EMAs are based on fantasy because they do not face the pressures marriages face. But I firmly believe our marriage can be passionate again or I wouldn't be here. That is the stated goal of the Harley methods.<P>Will we get there? I don't know. But we are both trying hard, spending a lot of time alone together. That was the biggest mistake since we had kids - we stopped spending time alone together. At first, after he ended the EMA, (and certainly before) we were not having a good time. But we persisted and we are rediscovering each other. You know, he let me read all the emails with OW, and I discovered how tender he can be. I had really forgotten!<P>