I've become a pretty strong believer that other sex "friendships" don't work toward the success of a marriage. Since Septemeber, I've been an advocate for steering clear of other sex friendships since my own W became subject to an EA with the H of her best friend.<P>My W has insisted that she did not have any physical affair, and is merely good friends with the OM. While not admitting or acknowledging the concept of an EA, she has stated that he friends (both male and female) are filing those gaps in the relationship that I've failed at. When I questioned why she would sign off letters to the OM with "I Love you" and "I miss you", she claims that it was no big deal -- that's how she signs off e-mails with her close friends".<P>She's also stated that she has not changed since the day we married. She's always had other sex friendships and refuses to give them up. Essentially, it is MY problem to accept them. I must trust her that she will not get involved, since she trusts (or trusted) me not to get involved outside the marriage.<P>She has, however, broken off virtually all contact with the OM, but continues to maintain contact with the OM's wife (her "best friend"). The contact she's had has not been deliberate. <P>At the same time, she has grown extremely close to a group of folks from our kid's sports league. This group of five people consists of 4 men and 1 woman. The woman is divorced. Of the men, one is divorced, one is getting divorced, one is (actively)single, and one is marriage but not happily as best as I can see. She has been invited to a number of gathering (lunches, dinners, parties, pro sports event, even a trip to Las Vegas), some which she has attended, others which she has not. The ones that she has not, she's made quite clear that she resents me for making her feel that I'm controlling of her or disapproving. I have been invited to only one (Christmastime party), which I accepted. My W later reneged (two days before event) since she "didn't want to waste a baby sitter on the party but wanted to save it for another time". It was presented not as a question, but a statement. She was uninviting me.<P>She is clearly enjoying her friends -- I see it on her face when she leaves or talks about them. She even commented on how her arm was "so sore from dancing all night" at her friends party -- the one that I was uninvited to.<P>She is clearly not enjoying her time with me. Everytime we are together, it feels awkward, forced, and tense. I know that I am not filling those emotional needs, but I feel that she also won't let me. It's particulally troubling with these other sex friends since I believe she's extremely vulnerable to outside influences right now.<BR>I've read "SAA" and had suggested that my W read it, even as a preventative measure against an affair since I knew we were growing apart. She resented ever bit of it.<BR>I'm currently reading "His Needs, Her Needs", but I clearly cannot suggest that she look at it. I've mentioned the MB website, but I know she hasn't visited.<P>Am I making too much of the other sex friendships? Is it merely a coincidence that these other sex friends are so prominant at a time when our marriage is on the rocks?<P>HELP, HELP, HELP, HELP!<P>I'm trully nearing the end of the line, and I need to hear some pros and cons, from both betrayers and betrayed.<P>--keystone<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited January 07, 2000).]

Hi Keystone,<BR>my husband left seven months ago after I found out he was seeing a woman he met over the internet. He also claims that they are just friends and that it has nothing to do with why he was unhappy. I have been making a big deal out of it and it has made his friendship more important I think. To me it's the same thing as an affair even if there was no physical thing going on. It's an emotional one and it hurts just as bad. I really don't know what to do. I feel as if I've been banging my head on a brick wall for months now trying to get him to work on our marriage. I think that having a friend of the opposite sex makes it easier for them not to work on things because they don't feel the lonliness or the constant loss of companionship like we do. I hope you can work things out. I know that even after seven months, things don't look any differant here.<P>Deb

Now here's the shallowest most horrible remark I have or will ever make on this board... maybe because it's late?? We'll see...<P>Get ready:<P>I've had friends of the opposite sex, and so has my H. Both of us have betrayed with people who were "just friends" at first...<P>Here goes:<P>In our experience, if the person was interested romantically in us, and looked good <B>at all</B> there was a chance that an attraction would occur. In short, if the friend is a physically ugly person with no designs on us, things went okay. If they looked good and liked us, we had trouble.<P>I know how totally idiotic and shallow this all sounds... but for us it has been true.<P>I will probably regret this post in the morning... and I've been staying away because my mind is so warped lately... feel free to flog me, if necessary.<P>**as a P.S. I know this doesn't touch on emotional only or Internet affairs... but again, for us, it was always both emotional and physical, even if he didn't go "all the way"...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited January 07, 2000).]

Boy, I think I know exactly how your W is feeling right about now. I don't know if I should be respoding to this right now, due to the fact I have been in a depression of sorts this week. However, maybe I can give you some insight.<P>My H accused me of having an affair last January, I was not. We have been married for 18+ years and I have met everyone of his emotional needs for most of those years. Has he met mine? No! The last 14 years(since we have had kids) he has become a different person. He wants everything to revolve around him. Does he ever come home and ask me or our kids how their day was? No! Does he ever think that anyone else might have had a bad day?? No! He comes home with such a sour puss on his face that one D goes and hides in her room, the other D hides in the playroom and watches TV. Nobody wants to be around him. As much as I have tried to talk to him about this, things continue to be the same. I now have a lot of resentment towards him because he isn't there for the girls or myself. Believe me when I say that the girls have brought to my attention that they feel their father doesn't love them and if they had been boys that he would be different and that hurts. I hope you can see where I'm going with this. <P>Now that I have said that, back in June at my D jr high graduation I ran into an old highschool friend(male & married). You might ask where was the H at this point? He was standing in another area sulking because he had a bad day, and because the graduation times had been switched due to the fact that it had rained. My D at this point had been very upset because of course she said his mood had ruined her day. Sorry I'm getting a little off track here. Ok, my male friend said to give him a call and he would try and help me or guide me with some of the problems I was having with my D. Did I? No! Why? Because I felt it was something my H and I should have been handling together. Plus the fact that if my H knew of any contact with a male(he doesn't even like me talking to my female friends) on my part it would make matters worse. With my H's second job he works with mostly women, he takes breaks with them and dinners with them, do I accuse him? No! I can say when he is there he is a different person(a happier person). Now, Sept. comes with a whole new set of problems with the D because shes in highschool. Is my H there when I need to discuss something pertaining to her? No! Now, remember this whole time he has been accusing me of having an affair, thats is why I am writing this. In Oct. comes my highschool reunion, I go by myself because my mom who usually babysits had surgery that day. Whos there but this old male friend. He waited until I was done talking to someone else and approached me. He asked how things were going with the D. We talked and went our separate ways. At the end of the night I said goodbye to him and he gave me a kiss on the cheek and said please call me and gave me his beeper number. Did I call? No! Three weeks later when I was in total turmoil with the D and had no one to turn to I gave in and called him. I felt horrible that I had to turn to someone other than my H for help with a matter that should have been between us. Well, to make an even longer story longer, LOL, I have been leaning on this male friend for months now with all sorts of problems & nonproblems. He understands exactly what I'm going through, hes been there. We mostly keep in touch through email but he has called on occasion to see how things are. Whenever the emails get a little more than I can handle(sexual wise), I back down and don't reply or just ignore it. I know this whole situation is wrong. BUT and thats a big but, lately I have been feeling that maybe I need him in my life in that way. I want to feel like a person again, not a door mat that someone is constantly wiping their feet on. My H makes me feel like I'm only here to serve him and be his maid, cook and house cleaner and child care provider. I have tried talking to my H about these things and I also have suggested to him to look into this website. He hasn't as of yet or even given it any thought. I mentioned counseling, he won't go discuss his problems with others. What is a person to do?? I'm sitting here(and this is probably why I came to this site this morning) and am either going to ignore an email I just recieved or reply to it. I haven't decided yet. <P>I know this was long but maybe just maybe this is how your W is feeling. Remember I am not your W, and am just letting you know my feeling. I don't know what to tell you to do because as you can see I'm not in the best position to do that, but I thought my story might enlighten you a little. <P>Sorry this has been so long, but as an accused person who has not done anything wrong, I know the hurt that comes with being accused. I ask why if H is allowed to have female friends, whom all email him too(mind you he has no male friends) that I am not allowed to have male friends? Or for that fact be allowed to talk to my female freinds? Talk about double standards! If you were to ask him his answer would be you can have all the friends you want and thats where the trust factor comes into play. I feel as long as I stay locked up in our house and be his slave that this will all end soon. I just don't know how much more I can take of it. Is the love there? No, that went with all the resentment that I have built up towards him. <P>Well, enough from me. I wish you luck in finding a solution. I too need to find one. <P>Best wishes.

Hi Falsely Accused,<P> What was your H like in the past ? Is this behavior new? The reason I ask is because my H became exactly as your H has been described DURING his affair. I wonder why he would accuse you of having an affair? Is he being defensive? My kids said the same thing about their Dad during this time," he's always in a bad mood, doesn't care about us" etc......I was getting flashbacks as I was reading your post.......Lu

NB is right. The only way this works is if there's any inkling of "If I wasn't with my spouse I might date this person."<P>But having been down this road on both sides, I can tell you that there are many reasons why someone would have/want opposite-sex friends:<P>1) Having more in common with them. For example, I don't have kids, and aren't really interested in listening to women talk about diapers, breastfeeding, and every cute thing their kids did that day. With men, you can talk about other things. Sometimes it's fun to be "one of the guys."<P>2) If you were closer to your opposite-sex parent, you might feel closer and more comfortable with opposite-sex friends. I think this is the category my H falls into.<P>3) Wanting to have flirtations in a "safe" manner.<P>These are just a few.<P>I've had times where I had 4-5 opposite sex friends at a time, all through work, all through a group of about 10 people that hung out together. Most were men I wouldn't have dated if I was single, but there were two that I was attracted to at different times. The first one had no interest in me, and that one faded fast. The second was the one I've posted about here, where it was reciprocated, if only a little bit, and that was potentially trouble.<P>I never excluded my H from my get-togethers with these friends, but he rarely wanted to come along. I only found out after Dragon Lady came on the scene that he had resented it. 10 years later, he tells me.<P>Keystone, you have to find out what she gets from these friends that she doesn't get from you. You may have to do some serious soul-searching and you might not like what you find. But you have to be prepared to recognize those things. <P>What did I find out when I did that? I found that I am a control freak. I found that I think my way is always the right way. I found that with me, the statute of limitations never runs out on anything. If you were out of work 10 years ago, it means you could be out of work tomorrow. <P>Not nice traits, are they?<P>I've worked very hard on these things, and they have made a huge difference. Maybe you need to do a similar inventory?<P>

Hi Lu, He was a fun loving guy in the past. Always joking around and nothing ever seemed to bother him. But when it came time that financially things got tough and I said I think I need to go to work, he said no you stay with the girls and I'll get a second job, thats when things started to change. I know that there is a lot of pressure on him with having the second job, its been about 8 years now that he has worked it. I know he works hard to provide for us but that leaves no time for us as a family either. I have suggested ways to cut back on his hours and he always comes up with some sort of excuse not to. I think he enjoys being away from the house as much as he is. I have always been there for him and honestly don't know what I've done wrong. I honestly don't think he is having an affair. I have not asked because this would just make matters worse. I just try to keep going and try to make things work but when your the only one trying it makes it difficult. Sometimes he will try and then I get a feeling that he wants something(that seems like the only time he is trying). I try and work through these feelings of resentment but its getting harder and harder. I hope this is all making sense. <P>Thanks for your response Lu.

I haven't posted in a while, but this post caught my eye. Keystone, I am going through a similar situation.<P>I think Dazed and Confused's post was right on the mark. In my case, I think my wife is going through some level of midlife crisis coupled with years of neglect on my part. She grew detached from me and found an opposite sex friend to fill the void. She also maintains that there has not been any physical contact but I know there is an intense emotional attachment. There has been a lot of flirting on both parts, affectionate names for each other, lunches, emails, phone conversations, everything that leads to a full blown affair. <P>The OM actually put the breaks on it going any further, primarily in fear of losing his wife. My wife is still very vulnerable to him. I think if he decided to cross that line, she probably would I don't know for sure. I know she loves being with him and tlaking to him. I think she feels free from the pressures of a family when she is with him - no kids, no responsibilities, no clingy husband, etc. <P>As Dazed mentioned, I did take inventory of my life and my marriage. I didn't like what I had become nor did I like how my marriage was crumbling. I changed. I now try and be there for my wife. We go out on dates. We talk more. I have been able to give her back rubs when she enjoys and I do too. I am trying to fill any need that she allows me to. But, it does take some effort on her part too. There hasn't been much. We are closer as friends but no where near a loving married couple. <P>I also found that I am a controlling and manipulative husband. I don't like my wife having close opposite sex friends. I have tried to sabatoge her relationship with this OM only to have it backfire on me by them becoming even closer. I have come to realize that I can only be the best husband for her that I know how to be and if she desires an opposite sex friendship then I can't stop her. I only know that if she does cross the line - that is it for me. I don't trust her anymore but I have to or I will go insane. <P>Keystone, you have to just be the best husband you know how to be. You need to get to know your wife again. Find out what she likes. Date as often as she will allow. Talk to one another. Touch her non-sexually. Spend time together. You and I can't go through life no longer trusting our wives. We can't manipulate them either. You can tell her that a particular friendship makes you uncomfortable, but if she desires to continue that friendship then you are left to live with it and trust her judgement. <P>You can only give your best. If that isn't enough, and she does cross the line in spite of your Plan A efforts then you go to Plan B - let her go. <P>Don't live your life in constant fear of being betryaed. I don't think anyone on this forum likes the idea of opposite sex frineds, but we can't live in fear of them either. <P>Fool No More

Thanks to all who replied. <P>Falsely Accused -- Boy have we got to talk. You hit on some really key points. But, what scares me is exactly what you're going through. I belive you and my W share so many similar perspectives. <P>Do you think that this connection with the old highschool friend crosses the line toward an EA? We'll talk later.<P>DumpedWife -- I tend to agree that other sex friends make it easier to almost escape from the spouse, while still having the ability to have that other sex companionship which we all crave. A dangerous mix, huh!<P>NB -- I won't flog you. We all need to hear the perspectives that each person brings to this site. That's what makes it so valuable -- to remember that there are always two sides!<P>I just worry if the emotional connects between other sex friends are that tight, that critical in the lives of the spouse, isn't that still crossing the line? Even if the physical attraction isn't quite there? I don't know, but the closeness of the friendship, while maybe not leading up to an affair with THAT other sex friend kind of opens the door for another other sex friendship that might fill both needs.<P>Maybe I'm just being hypercritical, judgemental, and outright paranoid. That's what my W thinks!<P>D & C --<BR>She has gained something in common with these friends. I'm trying to find out, but I cannot pin it down. Except, that she's having alot of fun being "one of the boys". It does provide her with that "escape" from family, me, and other obligations. But any time that I tried to provide that "escape" in recent years, she wasn't interested. <BR>She did just turn forty, so I'm also convinced there's a bit of MLC involved.<P>Got to go to a meeting. I'll check back...<P>--keystone<P>

keystone, <P>In the beginning I didn't feel that this friendship with the old highschool friend was an EA at all. I have another very close male friend that I have been friends with for 27 years(he's more like a big brother to me, we grew up together) and his wife has become my very best friend. My H knows these two people and knows how much they both mean to me and thats about the only ones he even likes me talking to. But (here I go with that big but again), I can see now that things are getting, oh how do I put this....more on a personal level with the emails of this old HS friend and some of the comments being made back and forth within the emails and how it IS becoming or has become an EA. Not just on my part but his also because he's in a pretty messed up situation too. Like I said before I know this is wrong, this is part of the reason I am here on this board. I wish my H could be there for me and the girls instead of being so self absorbed in his own life. <P>On another note I did email him back this morning but I avoided any reference to his actual email. I know this was wrong, but I couldn't just ignore it. <P>As I stated before one thing to remember here I was accused 10 months before any of this ever happened with the old HS friend. Sometimes I feel my H is pushing me into it. Why? I have no idea, but I do feel like this. <P><BR>I'm glad I answered from my perspective as the accused W and was able to shed so light on this matter. I am also glad because posting this today has lifted my spirits some what. Like I said this has not been a good week for me emotionally and I feel this has helped. <P>Feel free to email me if you need to talk or we can just continue to post. Daydreamer100451@aol.com <BR> <P>I'll be back on tonight after dinner to see if you reply. <BR>

Falsely Accused --<P>I has such a great reply -- then my computer crashed! Let me see if I can race through this before I head out for a business meeting.<P>First, we've got to talk next week Too many similarities between you and my W. Your story has offered insights, but it has also reinforced some of the things that I see and do totry to rebuild the relationship.<P>Like your H, I an guilty of being more a taker than a giver. I've acknowledged that, I'm ready to take the responsibility for it, and I want my marriage to work. I just hope it's not too little, too late.<P>Your H is obviously not meeting your emotional needs and is refusing to do anything to show that he's as committed to rebuilding your marriage. Your anger and resentment -- at both his failure to meet your needs as well as accusing you of having an affair is pushing you toward---HAVING AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR!<P>Not wanting to be judgemental here, but... It appears your old friend is meeting the needs your H has been neglecting. Also, he's offering support and communication that you need during a rough patch. You also state that he's also going through a tough time now. It all adds up the the seeds for an emotional affair. <P>I beleive that's where my W got to, although she strongly denies any affair. She doens't quite buy into the concept of an EA. Instead, she thinks that an affair must be physical. We all know that's not entirely true.<P>The OM in our case was the H of her best friend. The met for lunch, went to movies, hung out at the pool. They went on an overnight trip (OM's wife was "sick" at the last minute, otherwise she was to also go) when I was back east with my daughter on a school trip. He called the house to talk to my W at hours that I normally would be at work. My W started refering to the couple as "John and Jane", instead of "Jane and John" as she has for so long. After all, "jane" was her best friend, not "John". When the e-mails were singed off with "I Love You" and "I miss you", I finally snapped.<P>Her response, after nearly two years of trying to address the issues of the OM before they got this far -- we're only "friends". Still, it's her defense. It's really hard to trust her.<P>Now, she doesn't trust me. She's angry, resentful. She says she hasn't changed, I have. And, she's not going to change. It's up to me to accept it. <P>I'm at a cross roads. I want to believe her. I do love her. I want the marriage to work. But, I cannot get her to understand how what she's doing is destroying me and our family. She won't read any of Harley's books, look at the website, or fill out the EN. <P>Please, don't let your resentment and anger over his lack of response push you toward an affair. That would reinforce what he's accusing you of doing! Rise above it. Tell him of your commitment to rebuilding your relationship and demand that he make a similar commitment. If he's not willing to commit, how can he expect you?<P>We've got a lot to talk about. I'll try to check back on Monday am.<P>chin up<P>-- keystone<P>P.S. Be sure to check into some old "other sex friendship" threads. Some pertinent info for you at this stage of your relationship. <BR>

keystone,<P>Sending your computer problems my way I see! LOL Then we lost electric this morning so its been hard to get back here to reply. Plus the fact that I have read this over and over in trying to come up with some answer to all of this. <P>I do agree with you that there are similarties between what your W and I are going through. My H also doesn't know about the emails between me and this old HS friend(OM). I too have not admitted to an EA, because I'm at the point that I feel yes I do lean on the OM for help in situations but I also don't trust the OM fully(thats a whole other issue). Plus the fact that my H has only accused me of a physical affair. I am as honest of a person you could possibily find out there but lately my H makes me feel like I have to hide the fact that I have email friends because of his actions.<P>This is where the difference might come in between your W and I. The thing that scares me the most is there is a physical attraction with this OM along with an emotional one. I have avioded all personal contact after the first time we met for breakfast(as old friends talking about old times, before any of these feelings really started). My H does not know about this meeting either. I realized then where all this could lead to and was not happy about the way I felt. I felt I was so wrong to have feelings for someone other than my H like this, and how could I do this to him or the OM's W. I guess its a good thing my conscience is still intact! <P>As far as your statement " I just hope it not too little, too late", well thats what I am feeling right now. As much as my H tries( and believe me when I say I am there for him when he is trying) it usually only lasts 2-3 weeks at the most. We are actually at this point agian, its been less than a week, and its not going so good. Then its back to the same old thing. Its very hard for me to trust him to believe he will change for the sake of this marriage or family. I been through this too many times in the past and like I said the resentment goes very deep at this point and time in my life. This is one of the hardest things for me to get over. I don't know how to deal with all this resentment. I have tried putting those feelings aside and then when its back to the same old routine it seems to get even deeper. <P>This is probably where you W is at with the feelings of resentment. Does she believe you will really change this time? Saying and really proving it are two different things. <P>If she is anything like me I have been raising two kids and running a household(ie, cleaning, cooking, laundry, ironing, bills, mowing, raking, cleaning gutters and many, many more, too many to list) for 14 of the 18+ years by myself, my H only contributes financially and yes it takes it toll. <P>I know it will be a while before you get back to me on this from your post. Actually I think we are in different time zones due to the posts here. I'm on the East Coast so if I don't get back to reply right away, just know I will be around soon. Keep checking back. <P><BR>By the way, just thought I would let you know I have not had any contact with OM in two days! I can say that it feels good not to have that pressure on me right now.<BR> <P>falsely accused<P><BR>

Oops... Sorry about the double post.<P>One REALLY GREAT thing is that you've not been in contact with the OM for two days. I hope you continue since I think that it will, at the very least, be a step towards reconciling your marriage. If you continue the contact, it will only validate your H's suspicions of an affair -- suspicions that you deeply resent.<P>-- keystone<P>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited January 12, 2000).]<P>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited January 12, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited January 12, 2000).]

falsely accused --<P>First, sorry for the long time since responding. All h**l has been breaking loose at work, and I'm been neglectful of the job lately. Alot of my time before the holidays was spent on this site. It's been a great help here at MB, but now I'm trying to dig out of the work problems that I've ignored.<P>The thing that strikes me about your last post is the resentment and the bitterness that you feel toward your H. It's the same thing my W feels toward me. I've admitted that I've been neglectful of my marriage and meeting her emotional needs for a long time. I'm trying to correct those shortcomings. But, I find that her bitterness and anger prevents me from succeeding and, since our communication is horrible at the present time, I'm left to only wonder if I'm making any progress. It's really hard for me to trust my own instincts since they've obviously led me off track to begin with.<P>Have you talked with your H -- in a non-judgemental way -- the way that you hope he would talk to you...? I ask this, because perhaps he cannot make the corrections you are hoping for since the feedback isn't there.<P>Personally, I think I'm trying hard to fix my shortcomings. My of my biggest ones is that I'm a workaholic and my job consumed my life. Yes, I was there for the kids (I coached/am coaching both kids in sports, attended school stuff, etc.), earned a decent living to allow my W to be a stay at home mom, etc. But, my job often took me on the road for long periods of time. We never had time for each other due to all the "family things", and never seemed to make time. We grew apart as partners, as lovers, as husband and wife. 15+ years of marriage, but 5 to 7 years of phoning it in as a spouse.<P>I did not have any affairs when away, but the nature of my job and the distances away gave me plenty of opportunities. Many co-workers often fell to the temptations, but I fought them. I had a wonderful family and way too much to lose. The problem is that I shutdown emotionally and physically when I got back home. The "defense" that I put up on the road to prevent from "getting into trouble" I couldn't take down when I came back. Add to that a near fatal accident, a home remodel from hell, and the birth of a second child and all the pieces from trouble were in place. And, as outside events happened, we had less and less time for one another.<P>A bit past two years ago, I felt my W getting closer to the H of her best friend. For nearly two years, I tried to explain my feelings without being judgemental, and without being accusatory. But, it seemed to fall on deaf ears. <P>I saw this relationship continue to grow, as the realiztion that my marriage was growing apart. The final straw was a series of e-mails between this OM and my W that I found. They signed off with "I love you" and "I miss you". Clearly these are not the way that I sign off when talking to a friend. Suddenly, it all made sense -- they were having an affair!<P>I felt for sure. I didn't think that it had gotten physical, but it seemed like a strong EA. Physical was merely the "next step". <P>My W had not responded to me in the earlier conversations. In fact, even today, she never felt that these conversations took place more than twice, but they were also not enough that she took as seriously as I was viewing them. I had no other choice than to confront the OM.<P>I did that in September. It was ugly, and I cannot say that I'd do it the same way again, but I let my emotions get the best of me. I now have the added resentment from my W since I've now destroyed her relationship with her best friend and her H (the OM).<P>Today, my W doesn't trust me. Doesn't love me -- I can quote that. And, doesn't know if she ever will trust or love me. She's said that she doesn't believe me when I say that I love her. She doesn't understand how I can love her after "falsely accusing her".<P>I've tried to explain the concept of the EA.<BR>Tried to explain that e-mails and the Vegas trip with the OM as being signals to me of something way beyond "friendships". She maintains that they are simply that -- nothing more, nothing less. She's admitted that since I've "shutdown", she's relied on these friends -- including the other sex ones -- to fill the gaps that I didn't fill.<BR>It's hell on earth since I see that we no longer have a friendship, no longer share interests, no longer have any anything except two kids and a roof over our heads.<P>We went to counseling. but she seemed to just be going through the motions. I always set the appointments and pushed for a session. She just obliged. I read Harley's book "SAA". When I suggested she read it, it just added to the anger. After all, "she didn't have an affair". I told her that it could be used as a preventative guide, and that some ideas in the book actually made sense. She felt it was rediculous and there was "no way" that she would be filling out anything like an emotional needs questionaire".<P>The future scares me. I want to rebuild. I think I'm trying, but I know I've got a long way to go. I need feedback that she fails to give me. And, I see how excited she gets when she goes off with her friends -- yet I see the burden if she goes out with me.<P>I cannot say that there's hope for me. I've got real doubts since the holidays. I just can hope that perhaps I shed some light on any similarities between you and your H that might allow you to see the "other side" in a different way. <P>I'll try to check the thread tomorrow am and be more timely in any responses.<P>Chin up!<P>--keystone

keystone,<P>Don't fret over the late response, I understand the work issue. I just finished reading your post and there are a few(very few) difference between our stories. One being you are there for your kids(my H is not). The fact that you phoned home when you were away is positive, I don't even get a phone call when he 2-3 hours late coming home. It is not easy being the W of a workaholic.<P>The other thing our stories have in common is the "shutting down emotionally and physically" part of your story, but for different reasons. My husband really began(started to before this a little) to shut down 8 years ago when his brother(31) passed away due to complications with brain cancer. He has since dropped everyone from his life including his parents and siblings(3 others left). Since then he has thrown himself into work even more. I think he uses it as a barrier to not be close to anyone, because of his fear of loss. I understand this but, I don't think he does. I have tried to tell him(in a subtle way) he needs to work on this part of him before we can even start to work more on us. <P>The day I got the phone call about his brother, I immediately called his other job and told them he wouldn't be in that night, so he wouldn't have to deal with that. I thought about calling him at work(day job) but, I knew he was on the road and there was no way to get in touch with him and like I said he doesn't call home. He walked in from work(late as usual) and I had to tell him(a very hard thing to do) and he immediately shut down. All I wanted to do was be there for him and hug him but he wanted none of that. He went with SIL to make all the arrangements and had to do a reading at the church. He was like a stone figure there. Afterwards the jobs became his life even more. My girls(6 & one just turned 4 at the time) and I grieved together. It was hard for them, the younger one not really understanding, the older one understanding too much. The girls needed their father then as much as he needed them but he would not allow himself to be there with them. They needed to know that their daddy was ok and that this would not happen to him. My SIL had 3 small kids(5,6,7) at the time and all my girls knew was that they(their cousins) had no daddy now. <P>I hope you don't mind me writing about all of this but, in order for this story to unfold to how our marriage got to this point these important factors. <P>Last January when all these accusations started was a really tough time. I was accompanying my friend(of 27 years) and his wife to the hospital in the state next to ours so that he could undergo brain surgery(epilepsy). I can tell you it was an extremely emotional time being it was the same hospital, same floor and one of the same Drs that my BIL had. After his 4 day hospital stay he came home and needed someone to care for him. His W of course had to work and I was home so his mom and I took turns and helped out as much as we could. The thanks I got from my H was him accusing me. I will say I never put them above our family, I always did what I had to do at home before going over there to help. <P>I have to say that yes there is a lot of resentment and bitterness there on my part. I could go on to tell you things that would just make your head spin. I hope you can see why I feel the way I do. Believe me when I say I have talked to him in a nonjudgemental way. I have tried everything, everyway possible. All he is concerned about is his jobs and how they are ...I'm trying to put this in a nice way but its not going to work LOL....screwing him. He thinks everyone should work around his schedule and that he doesn't need to work around anyone elses. <P>Maybe a lot of this is my fault. I have always catered to him. He has to do absolutely nothing around here. I figured he works hard enough and when he is home that at least if I did all the other things that he could spend quality time with us as a family. That does not happen. He is either on the couch watching Tv or sleeping. <P>I guess one of the things that bothers me the most is I'm really starting to see my girls resent their father. They have seen and heard things he has said to me too many times. My oldest D was starting to get herself a bad rep because of the boys in her life. I believe she did this for attention, she needed a males attention and if her father wasn't going to give it to her she would find it else where. After the accusations my H has made I see her changing and not trusting the boys at all in her life. You might say this is good at her age but, I don't want her to grow up with such negative aspects of men in her life. I should know I grew up like this. I had the abusive alcholic father for the first 5 years of my life until my parents divorce. My mother never remarried. When I dated I looked for the complete opposite a fun loving guy who didn't drink in excess and someone who showed his emotions. I never expected to be living with a nonemotional workaholic. <P>I understand why your W has shutdown. I basically at this point have tried not to but it has happened. The sad part is my girls have shut their father out too. Your kids still have you and don't ever give that up. I believe you when you say you are trying to change but, it takes a lot of time to get over the emotional scares that were put there in the first place. All I can say to you is be there for her and the kids, don't push the readings, don't push about the OM. In time hopefully she will see the changes you are making and things will improve. Like you I hope its not too late. I guess at this point its just a wait and see game. <P>Now I am neglecting my daughter so I must end this. I need to make her lunch and do her hair(yes even with just turning 12 on the first of this month its still something she likes me to do! )so, I will end this here. I'll check back later also!<BR> <BR>falsely accused<BR>

falsely accused --<P>Wow, there's a lot to digest. Similarities that I see myself, others that my W has pointed out. <P>Question: If he could make inroads towards rebuilding your relationship, where would you like to see him start? Do you think you could remain open enough to him to let him stumble and get back up again? Is there anything that he feels you need to change or address?<P>I'll try to get back later and check the thread.<P>-- keystone<P>P.S. My 12 yr old D also likes when her mom does her hair. She dreads it when I have to do it. In fact, she'd just opt to put on a baseball hat! LOL! !<P><BR>

keystone,<P><BR>"If he could make inroads towards rebuilding your relationship, where would you like to see him start? "<P>I honestly think he needs to start with himself and his emotions to find the person that he was, not the one who is afraid of loss. I have seen a couple(very slight as they might be) changes in this area. During the holidays we went to his brothers grave and for the first time in 8 years I saw him break down. My heart went out to him, I wanted to hold him and tell him it was ok but he closed me out and walked back to the car. I know this was a start but he really needs to look at what he's feeling and deal with it. Then I think maybe it would be easier to work on our relationship. <P>"Do you think you could remain open enough to him to let him stumble and get back up again? "<P>I am here, I am trying to keep my resentment and bitterness under control for the sake of this marriage. I want nothing more for him then for him to be back to the person he was. He has stumbled and I am still here( I just hope I can hang in there, without making any stupid mistakes). <P>"Is there anything that he feels you need to change or address?"<P>*chuckling here* I'm sure there are things he would like to see me change. For one I think he would like me to be a little more open, which lately I find hard with the feelings I have towards him. If something is bothering me and he asks me whats wrong my standard answer is "nothing". I got so use to handling things on my own I have a hard time letting him help now. I also know he would like our sexual relationship to start again(its been over a year and a half). I think this is one of the biggest changes he wants. This one is a hard one for me to handle. I can't resume relations if the feelings are not there its just not me. Another thing he would like me to change and that we have completely different views on has to do with our D's. He wants me to tell him everything they are doing including the things with school. I feel he should be talking to them not me to find out what is going on in their lives. I do try to talk to him about certain things(important ones) pertaining to them but he doesn't know how to handle them because they are "girls". So, he more or less has left that up to me. I'm sure there are a few more, but with the lack of communication at this point its hard to find out.<P>Sorry I chuckled at the last question, but it struck me funny at that moment. Don't we all need to change! Nobody is perfect! <P>falsely accused<P>

Falsely Accused --<P>Again... wow! Similarities abound. I can see some elements of myself in your H. And, I can see some of my W in your actions and reactions.<P>The shutting down your H does regarding his brother appears to be his way of coping. My mom dies when I was four and, although I had siblings and family always present, I grew up more a loner. Perhaps not the best way, but it was the way that I dealt with it. When I met my W, I broke open a little. But, as the problems in my marriage developed (as discussed earlier), I reverted back to what became my norm. It's not right, but it is what it is.<P>I am very self conscious of how I'm dealing with my W in this recovery stage. I've got no confidence in myself and my intuition these days, so I'm immediately defensive. I find that it's really hard to see my W not be inclined to step ON me when I stumble these days. On the otherhand, maybe I'm just tougher on myself.<P>One of the key things that I'd like for my W to change is the other sex friendships. She's admitted that they're filling the needs that I haven't. Like you two, our sexual relationship has also been dead for about the same time, if not longer. With other guys filling the non-sexual needs, I'm concerned that it's only a matter of time before they (and she) agree that they fill the physical ones as well.<P>Re: the kids -- I think I've been there all along. I have a daughter and, as a man, it's a really great relationship. She's so cool, plays a mean game of softball, and is about as awsome as you can imagine. Her brother ain't half bad either. Perhaps your H and your D can find some common ground. <P>Back to the other sex friends -- it's a troubling issue. I'm trying to rebuild, but I feel that I'm being shut out. I feel that I have to compete with her friends. I no long share common interests, jokes, experiences with my W -- these friends do. She's claimed to always have other sex friends, and has outright stated that she will not give up these friendships. "You have to change", she says to me. "You have to change back to the person you were!"<BR>Sound familiar?!<P>Chin up!<P>--keystone<P>P.S. Perhaps we have to start a new thread. I do want to start on about being falsely accused if you don't mind. Perhaps both sides (accuser and accused) can step back long enough to see it from the other's perspective.

Keystone,<P>Sounds all to familiar! Can I give you one piece of advice here. I hope you don't mind. BE MORE CONFIDENT IN YOURSELF!! And STOP being so defensive! The men we are turning to ARE more confident in themselves and that is why we are turning to them. I know I am being very blunt here but maybe this is what your W needs from you. <P>If your W is saying, like I am that there are needs you are not filling I think you should try to fulfill them. I know I am getting tired of always fulfilling my H's need and not getting any of mine filled. If you start to fulfill her needs she might just turn around and really start believing you are willing to make some changes. Until you take that defensive edge away things are bound not to change. <P>As I get older and I realize that I'm not going to be around forever I'm seeing a need to be happy. I'm also seeing a need to make my H more independent. He relys on me to wake him in the morning(even though he sets two alarms) and to do everything for him(probably my fault). This is a man who has no clue how to write a check out!! One who has never seen a household bill!! If something was to happen to me(and I think this way because I need more surgery and that puts a real scare into me), he would have no clue as to what to do. Thats a scarey thought knowing their are two girls here that would need someone. <P>As far as the oppisite sex friendships. I can agree to a point. Yes I see where the one might lead to something. I see that the OM is fulfilling needs that are not being met by H. I can understand your feelings that they will soon fulfill not only the emotional needs part for your W(or myself) but the sexual as well. Remember I too am at that point. But there are some (maybe just a few) instances where I think it is ok. Like with my friend of 27 years who is like a brother to me. Thats all that is and my H knows that. We both, H & I have always had other sex friends. This is nothing new to us. The difference lies in that we were able to talk openly about them before, now we don't. <P>Can I ask you a question: In your job do you work with a lot of women? <P>The reason I ask is because my H does(night job). When he first started this other job he use to call me and we would talk when he was on break. Now that he has all these women that he takes breaks with its too much to call me. That hurts! I questioned him about it and he said that it costs to much to use a payphone to call. I think he doesn't want to take his time away from these friends to call. I became very insecure for a long time over this. It has just been the past few years that I have been able to deal with it, because I have taken a stance in my life to be the best person I can be and to be proud of myself and secure and strong. Could this be something you W is going through too? If so then you need to be proud of her that she has made these changes for herself and not put her down. I get put down all the time for the things I am doing to improve myself. <P>We also share nothing in common anymore. My H use to be the jokester, now if I send him a email joke he thinks I'm crazy. I just want to be able to make him laugh a little. He needs to lighten up, lifes too short. Don't feel like your in competition with these people, make them feel like they are in competition with you. Be strong!! <P>IF you wish to start another thread be my guest. I actually came to the board on Dec 31st with the thread titled "falsely accused". I'll be checking back to see what you post and if you start a new thread!<P>Confidence!!<P>falsely accused<P>P.S. Keep up the good work with the kids! That means so much to us moms!!<BR>

Hi Keystone and Falsely Accused -<P>Boy, you guys have an EXCELLANT conversation going on here!!!!<P>So much can be learned by both of you into the "minds" of your own spouses.<P>Please continue - new thread would be great and reference this one for people to start reading ------ this could help soooooooo many!!!!!!<P>Have you gotten some good starting points from FA that you may be able to implement Keystone? I see plenty!!!<P>How about helping FA with how she might help her H to open up and "get it"?<P>Oh my gosh, I am so excited by this thread.....I am printing it out when you two are done!!!! Very good reference material here!! <P>Thank you both!!!<P>Big Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>PS - on the original topic of the thread I feel that a long time friendship from childhood is an exception for the most part - otherwise opposite friendships are not a wise practice. I have found that one of the two parties (at least) will have more in mind at one point in the relationship. Some people can address it and continue the relationship despite it or by removing it.....but it is definitely there at some level.<P>When marrieds don't "play" like marrieds (meaning - together with SO) eventually they don't live like marrieds!!!<BR>