I suspect H of 21 yrs. has had affair. I think its finished but suspect it lasted months. I don’t know any details and he isn’t saying. Tells me no way, he would never, don’t I trust him, etc. I don’t have any proof at all (I've looked, can’t find anything) but just a feeling in my gut and some things don’t add up. Am I nuts? I’ve got to kno one way or other. One minute he says he loves me too much to ** around, next argument we have he hates me and is miserable. Then says how come I don’t trust him? I’d be willing to TRY to work it out, but I have to know the truth. Things are real tense right now. It fells like I'm living in the middle of a volleyball game.

Hi Moira...<P>First of all, welcome to MB. You've come to the right place for help. There are lots of supportive people here who can help you.<P>Now, what lead you to believe that your H had an affair? What kind of signs did you see? Can you provide more info? Thanks!<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited January 07, 2000).]

Thanks for the welcome. I hope I can get some others thoughts. I have visited other sights, but they seemed to negative, alot of venting but not much encouragement to work things out. I guess I'm hoping for a better outcome.<P>My H has shown lots of the classic signs: being less interested and affectionate, we rarely have sex anymore, a new interest in his appearnce, long hours at the office, weeks of the cold shoulder treatment, I found some sex-enhancement stuff he bought. Don't know who it was for, we hadn't had sex in months. That was the final blow ... I felt like someone suckerpunched me. I literally couldn't catch my breath for a few seconds. <P>Life is miserable now. We've talked, he denies it. I give out bits of info at a time ... usually during an argument, sometimes he has an answer that satisfies me for the moment, but then later I start thinking ... and it just doesn't make sense. He used to be my best friend, now I don't trust him one iota. I think I need an outside source to sort it out. <P>I can't believe anything could be this painful. Nobody knows, nobody guesses. He comes across as being sooo devoted when we visit friends and then driving home, we sit in the car and don't speak a word. I need to know it'll get better.<P>

Hi Moira,<P>Sorry that you had cause to find us...glad that you did. Welcome. You'll find lots of people here with all sorts of experience. <P>Sounds like your H and I are about the same age. My wife Suse and I have been married 21 yrs. I had a brief affair over a year ago, she had an on-again, off-again one starting 15 years ago. It's a long story but we're doing so well together now, it's almost a fairy tale.<P>So, we can both testify that a marriage can be put back together. But, it takes a heck of a lotta work and patience sometimes. It may be very painful too. Be prepared.<P>Has your H been physically intimate with someone else? You say you have no evidence but circumstantial. From what you've posted, if he hasn't started one, he's certainly ripe. Yep, he has the "classic" signs. So did I.<P>What can you do? Prepare for what's to come. Read, read, read, read. Talk to as many people on the Forum as you can. Learn about the behavioral quirks of betrayers. <P>They lie. They seem to change personalities. They're inconsistent. And more. Sometimes, it's not pretty. Lots of us call it the insanity of infidelity. Hopefully, your H's struggle with himself and what he wants out of life will be a brief one. And, hopefully, you're strong enough and love him enough to be around to help him pick up the pieces.<P>Keep talking, keep us posted. Yes, you will get thru it.<P> Oh, and btw... the Forum's gotten soooo much bigger since I first arrived a year ago. So, you might have to be patient waiting for posts back to you. Keep at it and you'll make some friends.

My H had me on some ugly rollercoaster ride with his half-truths, and then lie after lie. It was hard to keep up with what he was saying 'cause he just didn't make any sense. I thought I was going crazy with all of the deception. I had confided in his sister, mother and my sister, and they also thought my H was going psycho on me.<P>So, I understand why you are feeling so lost and confused in all of this.<P>Our spouse is so lost in his/her lies that he/she don't know how to tell the truth anymore. Sometimes they even begin to believe their own lies!<P>Since you found that sex enhancement stuff, I would go with my gut instinct. I wish that I would have listened to my gut, but I wanted so much to believe that there wasn't another woman. It's so hard to accept that your spouse could do such a horrible thing to you.<P>Did you tell him that you found that sex enhancement stuff and ask why he has it? On the other signals, your H is showing classic signs of having been in an affair.<P>Are you so sure that it is over? Is it possible for you & H to go to counseling....or can you give Dr. Harley a call? Do you have a copy of "Surviving An Affair?"<P>What you can do is ask your H to be honest with you. However, when he is being honest with you, you must not punish him for his honesty, even though the truth may hurt. You don't want him to be afraid to tell you the truth.<P>Also, you need to be in Plan A. No Lovebusters. Show him lots of love, but do not smother him.<P>I hope others chime in here because I know they can fill you with more helpful & wise advice. Remember, Plan A all the way!

Normally, our wonderful NSR (Jim) offers a "welcome message" but he's having one heck of a horrible day... so I'm stepping in for him on this one...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can see this is your first post to this board.<P>Let me welcome you. <P>You've come to a vey good place. The people here are both betrayed and betrayers and the occasional Other Person/Woman/Man (OP/OW/OM).<P>I, and many others can understand the hurt and the confusion you feel. We've all been through it from one angle or another. Don't feel your alone. You are definitely not alone. The bad news is that all too often your instincts of an affair are right. <P>Now for some help. You have reached a stage, because your posting here, were you are reaching out. Let me first recommend to go to the home page of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com</A> and read as many of the articles as you can... Of VERY great importance read (from the left side of the home page) about Plan A and Plan B. There is alot of dicussion of how these approaches recommended and espoused by Dr. Harley can help you... if not to save your marriage.. then to keep perspective and live again.<P>You need to do some self assessment too!<P>I would strongly recommend some of Dr. Harley's books to you... first and foremost "Surviving an Affair"... there are some explanations in this site... but you've got to get this book. If you look in the "bookstore" pages there are other books you can get later... and many people here will make other good(Great) recommendations. <P>We here, can and want to be a source of help to everyone who is or will experience what we have. There is alot of love... and patience here... there is also alot of honesty.<P>Please come back often...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Boy, I sure hope I did okay... notice that there are some links you can follow...<P>And let me add my welcome as well...<P>and that volleyball game you mention: we <B>all</B> know about that...we call it a rollercoaster!!<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Thanks everyone for the support. <P>I think its over because much of the behaviour has stopped ... who knows for how long? I told him what I suspected, he denied it. He did a complete turn around, suddenly we were like newlyweds again. He can be incredibly romantic. It was wonderful while we were together, but during the days when I'm home alone thoughts would nibble at my brain. As soon as he came home, I would start asking questions all over again "you said that ... it doesn't make sense, explain this to me ..." etc. I can't stop myself from trying to delve deeper into it. He's getting more and more resentful of the questions and I'm getting resentful of his resentment. It's a downward spiral. The honeymoon ended with the last question/anser session and accusations of distrust and dishonesty started flying. Now its a cordial existence. <P>I want to work it out, but I have to know WHAT I'm working out. I said that can deal with the truth if I know what that is, but I'm not willing to live a lie. H may be denying it because its easier than dealing with what the truth will bring, or because he'll lose the image of the perfect husband <BR>(which he has always cultivated). <P>I know what I SHOULD be doing but somehow it gets lost between my mind and my mouth. Sometimes I think is it important to know for sure? If he's willing to try, can't we just go from here? Other times the pain jumps up out of the blue and bites me in the gut and I lash out. <P>What to do before I lose my sanity?<P>

Moira,<P>Some much to say and no way to convey it well. If you would indulge me for a moment,let us consider the possibilities. <BR>The first possibility is that your H did not have an "affair" in the most commonly defined sense. Here is what I mean. Many people feel that an emotional attachment with no sex is not an affair. If this is his definition then he feels he is being honest with you. From what you said it seems it is now over.<P>Second possibility is that he did not have an affair at all (by any definition). He may have been greatly depressed and did not interact with you because of it. He is of the age where this occurs. Mid-Life Crisis it is often called but I suspect in most cases of MLC it is really depression and people trying to get out of it. Have you ever asked him if he is down? Or use some other term so that he does not get defensive.<P>Third possibility, he did have an affair. It is over. He is greatly embarrassed and more importantly he doesn't want to lose you. He is very afraid of telling you for fear of your response. Why would he fear your response? Is your current behavior a clue?<P>Moria, it seems to me if any of these three possibilities is true you have some decisions to make. If it is #1, what would you do? If is #2 what would you do? (By the way if it is #2 DuncanMac is right, he is ripe for an affair). If it is #3 what would you do. <P>If your answer is that you would want to stay married to him no matter what then you have found the right board. You need to go to plan A. You need to stop the inquisition. You need to make your home a place he is comfortable being in. More importantly you need to let him know that no matter what you are with him for the long haul.<P>Let me explain. If it is #2, something I am familar with, then the tendency to see things as negative. If you continually question him and he continually denies (after all he did not have an affair), it will drive him deeper. At some point, he will leave (physically or emotionally). You want him to get help. But he is obviously not really interested in talking about his depression. How to get him there? Pride and vulnerability are two big factors. You need to make him comfortable enough so that he will put aside pride and fear of vulnerability to talk with you and maybe get help. I am guessing he is in early 40's. Tough time. Careers are starting to top out and opportunities are beginning to vanish.<P>What if it is the other two possibilities. Actually, the answer is the same . He will need to open up to you and perhaps you two will need counseling. Your problems are in a sense the same as if it is #2. <P>Please don't drive him away with your questions. If they have been asked once and answered, then asking them again whether or not he is lying, will only build anomosity toward you. I don't think that is what you want.<P>Advice, please read the information this site. Take an active role in examining your position and role in your marriage. You can change yourself but you cannot change him. He will have to do that himself, however with a little knowledge and cunning you just might be able to help him, if you know what I mean .<P>I hope this has been of some help.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL

Hi Moira,<P>See? You've gotten lots of interesting stuff posted back already! <P>My dear colleague Just Learning has nailed the subject (as usual). His descriptions of scenarios #1, 2 and 3 are dead-on. Actually, I'll confess I've lived them.<P>Moira, I mentioned you to my wife Suse tonite. I told her that you observed your H exhibiting all the "classic" signs of infidelity. She nodded knowingly. She's been there too. <P>No, we're not making light of it, not proud of it. We've just accepted what happened in the past and we're trying dang hard to make a wonderful present and future together.<P>While talking, we got reminiscing about the months leading up to my confession of my brief affair. Suse DEFINITELY noticed the warning signs in my behaviour. And, she even asked me bluntly, "are you having an affair?"<P>Well, at the time, I could act in a Clintonian manner. Hmmmm...define affair? Was I physically intimate? Had I consummated? What is an affair? How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?<P>Do you see? I was cleverly, evasively rationalizing. That's what the infidel can do. Make sense out of insanity. Had I had physical sex with my OW up to that point? Nope. So, I could say I didn't have an "affair". At least by the "classic" definition. Was I intimate with another woman? Hayalllll yes! And, if she'd asked me about a week later about the physical stuff I'd have either had to confess or lie outright.<P>Again, I'll echo what JL has suggested...get educated. Do your best to learn from all of us who participate here. Then, fortified with some new experience, you'd better come up with a few alternatives based on differert scenarios.<P>Keep posting. <p>[This message has been edited by DuncanMac (edited January 08, 2000).]

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts. I’m a casual employee at the local hospital and was called into work this weekend so I had to catch up on the responses this morning. In answer to some questions, yes No Trust, he knows I found the sex aids. I had found them during the summer, when we were hosting a pool party. I was searching the garage for a pool lounger. We had guests at the time; one was helping me look, so I had about 10 seconds to put it back and act like everything was perfectly normal. I was frazzled the rest of the day but hid it ok. I never confronted him. I quickly planned a romantic vacation for just the two of us. I presented the trip as a fait accompli, saying I felt a distancing between us and we needed to reconnect. He got the time off and we had our trip. After the trip, everything was somewhat better for a while but still not normal. Then the distancing again. Before Xmas I finally asked THE question. He denied it, and overnight everything turned 180 degrees. Xmas was storybook - lots of romance, cuddling, phonecalls from work, etc. I was over the moon. I guess I put everything else out of my mind. Then about a week ago, he comes home with this ah shucks face, “err, ah, gosh, don’t laugh –let’s try these. They supposed to make me last longer”. Out come these performance supplements. Same as what’s hiding in the garage. Everything I felt that day in the summer came rushing back. I asked, real casual like, oh, do they work? I don’t know, we’ll have to find out. Yeah, right. <P>Later that day I told him what I knew. Not accusing, during a deep heart-to-heart we were having. Just that I had found them, knew he was taking them, our sex-life was non-existent at the time, why the secrecy, did he see what led to my fears? Almost begging to hear a valid reason. I watched his face – complete shock, speechless. He finally said he was taking them hoping we would eventually pick up our lovelife. Funny thing, he was the one that never wanted sex. You’d think he’d bring them on our trip – the one week all summer we actually had it.<P>Now all sorts of things flash in my mind. Like the sample of cologne and breathmints he keeps in his coat pocket. Because he smokes and I don’t like the smell – isn’t that thoughtful of him? The body massage business card that was lying on the kitchen counter one night. Supposedly, they were put on in windshields of all the cars in the mall parking lot. We laughed about it. I’m not laughing now. <P>What I don’t understand is how I could be so controlled for months, and now it like a dam has broken and I can’t hold it together.<P>I appreciate JL's advice. I do want to save our marriage. I am trying to leave some stones unturned, but I'm not real good at self-restraint. (being really honest here) A couple concerns - should I be medically checked, in case he has had outside relations? If so, what do I say to our family doctor? Emotionally, how do I begin the process of trusting him when I have such doubts? What I've read speaks of communication being the key during the repair period. Should I avoid all mention of the issues? Is it possible to rebuild our marriage in spite of never discussing it? In spite of positively knowing? What about when you're not sure whether you're paranoid or he's lying? <P>This is wordy - sorry bout that. I am going to read the suggested articles now. <P>Thanks everyone. <BR>

moira,<P>I know I am going to sound naive here, but here goes. I don't see what you have just discussed as pointing to an affair. Let me offer you a different scenario.<P>Let just say he is having some...physical problems with the old equipment . Most men especially if young (40 is young) are terrified of this condition. I'll admit it is one of my worst fears. That I could not perform and satisfy my wife. He buys the sex aids to help you be satisfied, but in order to introduce them to you he must tell you about his problem. He cannot. He doesn't want to take them on your trip, maybe doesn't need them under special circumstances or doesn't want to potentially ruin something that you have planned. By the way these problems can be variable.<P>As for the massage palor cards, I will say this. I have never been to a massage palor but I have had 10-20 of those cards left on my windshield in many states in which I lived. Interestingly, at strip Malls that have places like a Home Depot. So I would buy that story. <P>I know these could easily be via an affair, but they can be just as easily from depression. And I think depression is much more common than affairs. I know, I know, I am being a polyanna but if it is a case of depression this is less devestating to a mariage, but still a hugh problem. <P>My recommendation, treat it as if this is the situation. See if you can get him to open up about work, stress, how he is feeling. If he displays the symptoms of depression get some advice. Try St. John's Wort. It doesn't require a prescription or a visit to a doctor and is less threatening. See if he will do it to help you.<P>Interestingly, if he has had an affair this same approach may also help. As for the testing, I would wait until I knew something. As you point out if you do go get it you have opened a door you cannot close and you might not have needed too.<P>Please keep your eyes open, but I would go after this from the depression point of view. The symptoms are very similar.<P>God Bless You and Your H.<P>JL

Thanks for the new perspective, JL. Strange coincidence. I just finished cleaning the medicine chest, and found a bottle of St. John's Wart. I do my best thinking while cleaning - no wonder the house is a mess! I've been wondering about the mid-life crisis theory - and whether it could be MY MLC rather than his. Maybe its my insecurities. I would love to talk to him again to explain my fears and actions, and really hear anything he has to say, but I guess I've passed the point of no return on this topic. I've thought of printing off my messages and letting him read them but then again ...<P>

moira,<P>That might be a way of opening the discussion. The other is to ask about the St. John's Wort. I am betting that he has some real issue with admitting that he might need some help. He is worried that you will think him weak and not want him if he cannot perform. Further, if he is depressed I'll bet he is really worried about his job and keeping it or the ability to move up. <P>In short, I'm betting he has many fears and one of them is that you will find out he is not superman . It could still be an affair but Old Polyanna Me still thinks it is not and I sure hope not. However, he will need some TLC and you need to gain his confidence.<P>If I am right, he does not trust what your response will be and therefore is reluctant to talk about these issues. Find a way to reassure him. Finding the St. John's Wort and the sex enhancement aids, just doesn't add up to an affair to me. <P>Go for it moira and good luck.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P>P.S. You have not passed the point of no return, if you come at it from a different angle. The angle I would chose is your concern about his health; mental and physical. This is no joke moira. It is serious. If these things are not discussed and sorted out, then as DuncanMac has said, he is ripe for an affair. It would appear he does not have complete confidence in you. Examine yourself, in light of the love buster view of things and see if you can identify where he might have gotten that view and correct it if you can. Talk, Talk, Talk, but don't accuse or blame.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited January 10, 2000).]