Several people have told me that I should stop trying to make sense of my H's actions, that they don't make any sense, and that it won't do me any good even if I could figure out why. I disagree. I need to figure out the why in order to feel peace. And peace is one of my most important emotional needs - or wants. Everything has an explanation. If something doesn't make sense, it is just because we don't have enough information to figure out why. Even serial murder makes sense, if you accept the basic premise that there is some kind of biochemical disturbance in the brain of the murderers that makes them think they hear voices or whatever. I don't understand even the title of TheStudent's latest paper - but that sure doesn't mean the topic is incomprehensible. I just don't have enough knowledge or possibly intelligence to understand it. But everything is potentially comprehensible, even the behavior of my H.<P>With that in mind, I am once again attempting to analyze the basis for his behavior. I am wondering about the impact of feelings of rejection. I know he felt rejected by his father. His first wife left him after two months, apparently because he wasn't assertive enough. He told me that I always acted like I loved him, but I am not sure that I believe that he always felt that way, especially since right after he left he complained about a incident when I supposedly pushed him away when he hugged me - of course I remember it somewhat differently. Shortly before he left his only real friend withdrew from him, for some reason. It has occurred to me that at some point I think my H started doubting that the kids loved or needed him. Before he left, he used to drive my daughter somewhere every week. I had imagined that it was a nice chance to have long conversations and really connect with her. Then she told me that he never talked to her. When I asked him about it, he said she never wanted to talk to him. I guess they each assumed the other one didn't want to. Last night my H told me that he never calls the kids because they don't have anything much to say. I have only heard him spontaneously tell them he loves them once, and that was after he left. He rarely initiates affection with the kids, although if they give him a hug, he welcomes it. It seems in retrospect that the entire onus of keeping their relationship going was on the kids - he responded to their affection, but did not know how to actively promote closeness. As soon as they got to old to cuddle, he doesn't know what to do with them. Undoubtedly this goes back to his childhood and his distant, critical father. I often felt that he was jealous of their close relationship with me, but any efforts I made to encourage their relationship was in vain. It was a year or two before the affair that I started to really notice his withdrawal from the children, and it wasn't until much later that he withdrew from me - maybe because I put more effort into maintaining closeness than the children did. <P>Maybe he thought everybody, including me, had rejected him. Maybe he never learned how to do his part in maintaining closeness, maybe he thought it just happens effortlessly, and if it doesn't, he interprets that as rejection.

Nellie, you are probably right, there may be a lot you can figure out if you try hard enough and if that what you have to do, then by all mean do it. <P>However, I think what us well intentioned folks here are telling you is not to watch how you react to your H. Don't let him just yank you around. Of course since you do need to interact with him, that is not easy and sometimes impossible.<P>However, no matter what you figure out about your H, YOU have a life to be accountable for...your own. Plus fair or not, you are the responsible parent here, so you want to be the positive influence which you already are.<P>Look at it, figure it out...but don't let your H drag you down with him. <P>We all care about you, Nellie!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Nellie, I understand the feeling of needing to figure out the "why"... I analyze and re-analyze and just when I've "got it" - he does or says something that makes me realize that I am not in possession of enough of the facts of the matter.<P>It's like a mathematical equation... it can have a hundred "parts" to it - but unless there are enough "knowns," the "variables" will only result in a range of possible solutions. And if the situation is ongoing, variables are continuously added to the equation, making it more and more difficult to come to a concrete and definite answer.<P>Some of the unknowns that keep me from finding "the answer" are: What are my husband's emotional needs, really (and which of them was I not meeting)? What is it that he and the slug have together that makes their relationship valuable to him (it's a mystery to just about anybody he considers a friend)? Is the slug really into bondage, S & M and other "kinky" sex practices? Is my husband into this - has it become one of his emotional needs? What happened at the end of the summer which he referred to in a recent conversation as "things changed"? Why does he not realize that what he is doing is as wrong now that he's moved out as it was while he was living with me?<P>That's the problem with analyzing. You can do it, and come up with possible causes for his behavior - my husband's father was killed when he was 17 years old, and there was never closure for the family, least of all my husband - and this may have left him with abandonment "issues"; he was always babied and pampered, spoiled, in other words - maybe he didn't think I pampered him enough, etc., etc... But there is too much unknown about the situation for that to be satisfactory to us. And, we cannot ever discount the fact that human nature in and of itself is so incredibly complex that sometimes we say things or make decisions and we <B>really don't know the reasons why.</B> That whole "free will" issue comes into play - maybe some of the decisions were made because they wanted to "see if they could do it" and not out of any great desire for whatever it was.<P>That's the only reason people tell us not to analyze ... yes, understanding brings peace, but I think that acceptance of the idea that we may never truly know what motivated our spouses can also bring peace. I'm working on that, especially as in my case, my husband has given me so many <B>positive</B> signals while still investing himself in the slug, that I find myself spiraling into depression (even on medication) when I try too hard to figure out what is going on...<P>The best thing I have done for myself throughout this is to remind myself of one thing I am considering a fact: He's lost his friggin' mind! <P>However you decide to deal with your situation, just consider that you deserve sanity and peace whether or not you can ever figure him out. We did not <B>have</B> the affair, and we did not <B>cause</B> the affair ... we are not responsible for it in any way. I truly object to the way Dr. Harley puts this particular issue - we contributed to the marital problems which put the spouse in the emotional place where he was vulnerable to having an affair - but only the betrayer made the decision to betray.<P>Now that I've written my book for the day ... I'll take my leave with a wish for you to achieve the peace that you deserve. Sometimes you have to MAKE that peace for yourself...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Nellie,<P>I also have given you advice to try not to analyze this to death. I have done enough of that with my own situation, and you know what??? All that effort, mental energy, snooping I used to do, countless hours of sleepless nights - all spent trying to "figure it all out" don't add up to a hill of beans. <P>Like you, I felt an overpowering need to "understand". For me, I think I thought if I could just figure it all out, I could then "present" this to my H who would come running home. You know, between my H and I, we have really figured it all out - we know how, why, when and the whos and whats. We know pratically EVERYTHING about the affairs - mine and his.<P>He never wants to talk about it again, and truly, I could be happy if I never talked about it again, too.<P>The thing is this: SO WHAT if we know??? Has it changed the OUTCOME???? For me: NO. The bottom line is this: The BETRAYER has to want to give up the OP and want to come home and rebuild the marriage. So far, neither my H nor your H wants to.<P>In my case, we have it all figured out. It really doesn't bring me peace and relief. I stopped snooping a long time ago, because I realized "knowing" things didn't stop him from doing them and only hurt ME! Why know anything if it isn't going to help or change the outcome???? It keeps you mired in the hurt, and it definitely hinders the healing process. <P>Maybe you will get peace and relief if you can figure it all out. I can not say you won't, and can only relay my own experience that it didn't. What will you do with this info if you do figure it all out?? Steve Harley told me to STOP trying to educate my H because it is a MAJOR LB. So, if you would follow that advice, you wouldn't be able to try to educate your H with hopes it would knock some sense into his head. As antagonistic as your H has been to you lately, I doubt he would listen to anything you told him, anyway, just because it would be coming from you.<P>It is SUPER FRUSTRATING for us!!! Believe me - today I am so frustrated and am considering throwing in the towel myself. <P>The hardest lessons I have learned here:<P>1) You can not control another's actions - only your own. In our case, we don't seem to be able to even influence their actions, either!<P>2) Nothing will stop an affair except the betrayer or the OP. No amount of coersion, logic, talking, PlanAing, PlanBing, figuring it all out - NOTHING WORKS but the desire of one or both of the participants to end the affair.<P>Our question then is this: How long are we willing to wait to see if the OR falls apart??? Although you are getting divorced, you know that it is possible that you two could get together later on - may not be probable at this point, but it is always possible.<P>What I and others here hate to see is a good person like you, Nellie, getting eaten alive by this all. You CAN NOT CONTROL your H's mean reactions to you right now. Who knows why he is doing this?? And, like I have said, it really doesn't matter. Only if you are inadvertenly egging him on, there is nothing you can do to stop him from doing this. Maybe it helps him to release his guilt, but even if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that he is being MEAN to you.<P>I would like to see you invest more energy in building and fortifying yourself. If your H continues his present abhorable behavior, you will need continued courage and fortitiude to sustain yourself and help you and your children heal. They are looking to you and how you handle this - it will set the precedent for their future actions.<P>If you can continue to face this terrible ordeal with as much diginity and courage as possible, you can teach your children some of life's biggest lessons: Life ain't fair, but you pick up the pieces and keep going. When one door closes, look for another open door. Crap happens to everybody in their lifetime - it is just different crap for different people. We are all responsible for ourselves, only, and others must be responsible for themselves.<P>Keep the faith, Nellie. We all are here to support you!!!<P>Roll Me Away<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Roll Me Away,<BR>Don't worry, I am not going to try to "educate" him at this point. Figuring out why may not bring peace, but I know I can not be peace without understanding why. <P>I know that in most cases it seems to be just a matter of waiting for the affair to end. And unfortunately in many cases, it seems to be measured in years, not months.<P>terri,<BR>My gut feeling is that much of the information we are missing has to do with the interaction of the OW's with our H's - most of us have little or no knowledge of what she is doing or saying, whether she is giving ultimatums that our H's are heading, etc. <P>When I talk to my H, I so often have the feeling that he has not even tried to come up with a reason for things he has done that would be logical even to himself. Twice so far since the affair started, when asked to explain something, by me or by the therapist, he stumbled around and eventually said, "Maybe I was just a jerk". He may not have a clue why he is doing what he is doing - I suspect that he would be highly motivated at this point to avoid introspection.<BR>FHL,<BR>It is hard when he is hurting the kids. Sometimes I wish they would do a better job of standing up for themselves with him. At least one of them has essentially told me that they are afraid he will stop loving them too if he gets mad enough.

Nellie, i have e-mailed you but your comment is so apt in my children's case.<P> "Sometimes I wish they would do a better job of standing up for themselves with him. At least one of them has essentially told me that they are afraid he will stop loving them too if he gets mad enough."<P>This is the case with my kids.<BR>D told me that dad told her that when she puts him on the spot about OW or what he did, he tells her that this is not her talking but me!!! However the anger has to come out and it did for months....at me.Therapist told her not to misplace her anger. In fact D has sometimes chosen not to see her dad if she felt that she would come home a wreck.<P>16 year old wants to see dad to see if he will ver be a better father and one of the twins told me , " If I think about what he has done, will I still be able to love him? so he will rather not examine the behaviour too carefully and told me rather, but dad is happy with sl#t. They will not voice their anger at him as he will then not want to see tham and he has told them this.<BR> In fact he told other twin that if he had nothing to do with him then he would cut him off from all funds for school etc. (He has chosen not to pay thier bills anyway and I had to take him to court!) But he bought a very nice birthday gift to "buy sons' love as this son was accepting of OW and would see her!!!!<P>So he has made it very clear that no-one should tell him what he has done or they would lose his love as I did!!!Warped and twisted and no sense of responsibility as a parent. It is for these reasons that i consider him totally brain dead!

Hi Nellie,<BR> I can't add much to what others are telling you,but they're right in a way.I'm like you,very analytical about things,needing to know why things happen.After my W's affair,her whole personality changed,almost as if her whole dark side emerged and took over her body.The woman I knew for 24 years,I didn't even recognize anymore.You can imagine what this did to me.An affair would of been one thing,but how do you deal with a complete identity change?Like you,I did the"What did I do wrong?"thoughts,over and over in my head.Then the"What is wrong with her?"thoughts.I was obsessing,and driving myself crazy.Only after I learn to step back from the situation,and realized that there were no easy answers,was I able to get a little peace.Little kids get cancer,good people die for no reason,disasters strike with no warning,and some people go crazy.Unfortunatly,it just happened to be our spouses.You can talk about unmet needs,vulnerability,or mid-life crisises until you're blue in the face,but it won't answer your questions.Maybe we aren't meant to know.All I can tell myself now,is my W lost some parts out on the road,and she probably will never be the same again.Same with your H. The mind is a very complex thing,and we will never fully understand it,despite all the"theories".Don't torture yourself.What has happened has happened.No,not everything has an explanation.UFO's,ghosts,reincarnations,Bermuda Triangle,miracles,ESP,Bigfoot,spiritual-sightings.Look how many things haven't ever been explained.Some things are beyond our understanding.I wish I could help you to see that.I've been where your at,and it serves no purpose to try to fiqure it out.Take the time to clear your mind,Nellie,and try to find some peace.Take care. --Murph

Murphy,<BR>I understand what you are saying, but I still firmly believe that there is an explanation for everything. Whether humans will ever have enough information or intelligence to figure it out is a different question. But that isn't sufficient reason to stop seeking answers. It would be wonderful if someday medical research could isolate the specific biochemical changes/genetic defects that are associated with mental illness, and develop a cure. They are already beginning to develop a better understanding of the biological basis for schizophrenia, for example. For me, it does help to try to figure it out. Every little bit of insight into the why does make me feel better.<P>willbok,<BR>It really bothers me, too, when he makes it so obvious that his feelings for them are based on whether they accept his behavior. Although he, fortunately, gave both of our older daughters the same amount of cash for Christmas, he handed the one who will talk to him a present right in front of the other one, to whom he will not give a present until she asks for it.

Nellie,<BR>My stbx sounds alot like your h. We have had several friends just walk away from us for no reason and she felt rejected. I think she felt rejection from her father too as her brother was always in trouble and took alot of the family's attention.<P>She was pretty good with kids when they were small but as my daughter got older, she, my daughter, wanted her own space. My son,9, is a hugger and kisser while my daughter is not, she is like me. <P>Last school year, my stbx did not do anything with the kids at school. Now this year my d is in the middle school and she can't be involved. She was at my s's school once for a party even though she said she would be involved. It seems the teacher hasn't called her to help.<P>She also was not very interested in attending the kids sports either. I have had trouble with all these things.<P>I too attempted to figure out what happened. As far as I can can tell its part midlife crisis, part unmet needs, part just getting out of marriage with a variety of items mixed between those 3 things.<P>In the end, it all really means nothing. I learned all this information too late to save my marriage. I drove myself nearly crazy just trying to figure all this out.<P>Bob