My wife and I have been in Plan "A" for roughly 5 months, and the bottom line is that she is still seeing and talking to the OM, with an occasional sexual encounter.<P>We are discussing going to an arrangement where it is O.K. for her to see him (since she is doing it anyway, and when I find out after the fact, it hurts terribly), and it is O.K. for me to see another person. My thought is that if she is going to do it anyway, I would rather know in advance...and she will get to experience what it is like for me to be out with someone else as well.<P>I know this goes against most of the Harley principles, and we really should be going to Plan "B" for my sake...but it would be financially difficult for one of us to move out, and a drain on our kids. I guess I figured we could do this before going straight to divorce. We separated before, and that just gave them free time to be together, so separating just doesn't work in our case.<P>The goal of this plan would be for her to get her fill of him, since it seems I cannot meet this need even as hard as I try. She has not taken necessary steps to remove him from the picture, so this is one way of dealing with the situation.<P>A couple of questions: Is this what an "open" marriage is about? Anyone have any experience with this? What cautions might you have? Is this better than just plunging into divorce?<P>Thanks for reading...I'll check back in this afternoon.

interesting to see this subject here at mb!<BR>But I can understand where you are coming from. Been there too! <BR>My h has an issue with sexual compulsivity and the open marriage is something we talked about. The lying, the betrayal, etc would be removed from the equation, and then it would only be sex we were dealing with. Seemed much less complicated to me. HAH!!!<BR>My h about had a screaming fit when we talked about it!!! There was no way he was going to sexually share his wife, or wonder what I was doing and where I was. What surfaced were some interesting well-hidden issues of security. The discussions were good because issues that appeared non-existant in our marriage were brought up. Security was a big one for him. Another was fear. Mostly fear that I would find a better lover, though he has been my one and only for 21+ yrs. <BR>And I was never truly convinced I could accept this way of life. Though I do keep an open mind, I seem to struggle with this.<BR>I have talked with people who have open marriage arrangements and some work, while others create friction and have led to divorce. Careful if you are using it as a coping mechanism or a scare tactic, which is what I think you are doing.<BR>My thoughts are, for it to work, both parties would have to be committed to the marriage, very good communicators, and have a strong sense of security within the marriage.<BR>I don't quite see that in your relationship. Maybe plan b would fit your situation better?<BR>sorry abt the poor spelling.<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited January 09, 2000).]

MJINGIT--<P>A couple of years ago, there was a news special on tv about CA families who were either resorting to "open marriages" or actually divorcing but living together because the cost of living was so high in their area. They felt it was a healthier environment for kids than separation. <P>I am aware of local couples who live happily in "open marriages," or so they say. I don't know them well enough to know the truth of that claim. <P>My Ex-H and I tried to remain together for several months, in an "open marriage," for the kids and finances. For us, it simply didn't work. We were going our separate ways and honest about it, but the lifestyle was simply a constant reminder to us of our failed marriage. We then had a long separation of a year before finalizing our divorce. <P>We both have since remarried. My current H and I lead a much more varied sex life but I couldn't imagine existing in an "open marriage" with him. To me, an "open marriage" means going separate ways in sexual pursuits. Whatever we do, I want it to be together and in complete agreement, and that's the way it is. <P>cl makes an interesting point--an "open marriage" would supposedly diminish the pain of infidelity. There's no sneaking around. But UNLESS that couple has enthusiastically agreed and has a strong marriage to begin with, doesn't it set up probabilities of jealousy, anger and pain? I was the betrayer in my first marriage. My Ex-H seemed to take the news in stride and set off on his own sex path. Although we were honest about it, I think we were just bouncing back and forth with hurt, however unintentional. I wish I'd had MB available then, or some other worthy marriage tool to work through our problems. I'm very happy now, but for the sake of my first marriage I don't believe "open marriage" was the answer. Problems were already existing.<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<P>

My H and I have talked about this too... for exactly the same reasons... the finances and the kids.<P>Neither of us is actually seeing anyone else right now (THANK GOD) but we aren't happy together either - but we do LOVE each other, but aren't {insert blech here} "in love". <P>The thought of watching each other dress up for a date, come back with the glow of lovemaking... hmmm... I really don't think it can be done.<P>And yeah, cl, you DO make an interesting point re: the lying, betrayal being taken out of the equation... but... hmmm... <P>Provocotive question, mjingit...<P>I don't think it can be done without massive pain to someone...<P>I think that's my final thought... what did you decide, mjingit???<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

MJINGIT:<P>I can understand you wanting her to feel what you are feeling, by you being with someone else. My only questions are: <P>What would it do for you, being withsomeone else?<P>What happens when you start to have feeling for 'your OP'?<P>Or the OP starts having feelings for you?<P>Wouldn't this just make things worst?<P>Do you really believe this is going to make your marriage work?<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P><p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited January 09, 2000).]

If the pain of dealing with your spouse's affair is hurting you too much while you are in Plan A, then the next step should be Plan B. Period. You either need to deal with the affair and Plan A (no LB's, try to deposit love units) or you need to separate yourself completely from your spouse so you don't hurt your love for her. An extended Plan A isn't possible for everyone. And dating is NOT part of it.<P>My personal opinion? Horrible idea. You don't want to share your wife secretly, and it will NOT hurt less to share her knowingly. Take my word for it - during the 2 months after discovery that my husband still lived with me in the beginning of my Plan A, KNOWING where he was and who he was with hurt all the worse than not knowing. And how fair is it for you, a married person, to go out and date people? Fair, I mean, to the other people!<P>Well, that's my two cents on the subject...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Thanks for all of your responses! We have not decided for sure if this is the right thing to do. We need to talk about this, and determine what the ground rules would be.<P>Before this idea came up, I was ready to meet with my attorney to file for divorce. She won't stop, I can't take anymore, and separation is not feasible for us. I guess this is a way of extending our Plan "A", and all it really changes is that I will see someone else, and I will know WHEN she is with him. Like I said originally, she is GOING to see him anyway. <P>I know this arrangement would probably open a whole new box of problems, but at this point I think trying anything is better than divorce.

What you are contemplating is going to give you more grief and heartache. If you are at the point where you are going to date other people than it makes no sense to stay together. At least a clean break (divorce) would enable both of you to move on with your lives. It would allow you to let go and not care any more who your spouse was with. If your marriage cannot be saved in a form in which the marital vows and commitment are respected than it should be ended. An open marriage is the condoning of infidelity and the abandonment of moral and spiritual values.

An open marriage is not a remedy. I have nothing at all agaisnt the idea of it... for some it is the only way to go, but it is most definately NOT a remedy. The cynic in me, of course would just love to see how she would feel if the tables were turned, but lets face it... we are all here because we want to build our marriages and I don't think you can have and open relationship and build a marriage. For those suited to the lifestyle, being able to share their parteners is a result of a high degree of trust and security that your relationship would not be infringed upon by thr other people... that's probably not something you have in excess right now... Anyway, that's my 2cents...<BR>I did try this once, with one of my first major relationships. She ended up leaving me for OM. They are married now and have 3-4 kids and are completely miserable. He's unemployed, and [censored] and she slaves her life away, and lives a completely dominated exitance. It's a shame, really. Anyway, I got my fair share while this arrangement was in place, but it was empty and pointless and not worth it. I was a mess at the end of it all.<BR>You'd be better off going to plan B, in my humble opinion. Commitment demands sacrifices from time to time. That's why they call it 'commitment'.<BR>Don't get me wrong, if you are truly fine with this, then go for it, but again it is not a remedy. <BR>In any case, sounds like it is time for some tough choices. Posting this has brought back some memories...<BR>Deut<p>[This message has been edited by Soulloss' exH (edited January 10, 2000).]

My wife and I just finished a long discussion on going towards this "open" marriage...and we agreed to try it. <P>There were a couple of responses regarding "turning the tables", but this really isn't about me getting even with her. She realizes that I have unmet needs in the intimacy and sexual department (which she is finding with the OM), and knows I won't stay around much longer without those needs being met. She doesn't want to know any details of my relations with the OW, and I'm not planning on throwing them in her face. Strangely enough, we have NOT ruled out having sexual relations WITH EACH OTHER.<P>We talked about a few possible outcomes:<P>1.) We would hurt so much the first time the other goes out, we will stop it immediately.<P>2.) Something will change in our relationship while in this agreement, and we could determine to stop it in order to work on our marriage. Again, I look at this like an extended Plan "A"...just with the lies and sneaking taken out of it (remember, we both know she is going to do it anyway).<P>3.) It will turn into an agreement we can live with for some time...and would be a better situation for our kids and finances than a divorce would be.<P>4.) It won't work, and we will get divorced...which would have probably already happened if we wouldn't have tried this approach.<P>In response to MAX: I agree that an open marriage may be an "abandonment of moral and spiritual values"...but is it any worse than divorce? What if #2 above happens and we stay together and make it work...how about that affect on our children? Is that against any values? I never said I was a saint!<P>We are also setting some ground rules that we will both vigerously (sp?) agree to. I will publish them on this thread when they are complete (in case anyone is interested).<P>Again, thanks for reading and providing input. <P><BR>

Um ... what makes you think your wife will follow ground rules? She didn't honor her wedding vows, and after discovery continues to knowingly hurt you by seeing the OM. I'm not trying to bash your wife, but I don't see why she wouldn't agree to the ground rules and do whatever she wants to do anyway.<P>I am unable to fathom how she can discuss open marriage as a way to make the relationship better when it is clear that the thing that would make the relationship better is ONLY that she stop cheating on you and commit herself to your marriage!<P>I will repeat that I believe this will not help in any way - and what ARE you showing your children? "Kids, since mommy won't stop cheating on daddy, daddy is going to start cheating on mommy. It's okay because we've agreed to it." ?????<P>I don't get it. Sorry.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Terri - your motto is "I believe in miracles"...well so do I. Thanks for your reply, and allow me to clarify a couple of things.<P>First, we are not going into an open marriage as a way to make our marriage better. We are doing this to avoid divorce, and possibly save our marriage. My wife is VERY attached to the OM, and does not have the strength to do what most of us here at MB KNOW is the right thing to do. What if after a couple of dates, he starts farting in front of her (like I used to do), then reality comes crashing down...<P>Second, my kids are VERY young and cannot comprehend what is going on. So is it better to just get a divorce? I don't think so...if we make it through this, the one thing I do know is that THEY would be better off for it in the future.<P>Third, I don't expect you to "get it". You are not walking in my shoes, and we are not the same person, but I did ask for opinions, and that's what I got!

Interesting discussion with your wife. I hope that this is the answer for you. It does in fact work for some! If not, I hope something else surfaces that can keep your family together. You are a very brave person and are willing to make some great sacrifices for your family. <BR>Best wishes, cl<BR>

An update: my wife wasted little time, and met the OM for lunch today. It was a strange feeling actually knowing that they were together, but a better feeling than finding out days later from someone that saw them out. She is also going to happy hour with him and his friends Thursday after work...who knows what that will lead to, but anything goes according to our agreement.<P>My turn is tomorrow as I am going to meet my friend for lunch. We will probably plan something together for this weekend.<P>I had called this arrangement an "open" marriage, but another term used is "polyamory". I need to find a book (or two) on the subject to see just what we are getting in to. <P>I promised I would share our "ground rules", so here they are:<P><BR>* Each of us can see other people, which can include dating, phone calls,<BR>and sexual relations.<P>* We agree to ALWAYS practice safe sex.<P>* Phone calls FROM our home to the other person is O.K., as long as the<BR>spouse is not home, and not expected to come home during the call.<P>* We should not allow incoming phone calls at our home from the other<BR>person.<P>* We should keep each other as the FIRST PRIORITY...meaning that plans with<BR>the spouse should be considered before plans with the other person.<P>* Complete honesty is a must. Lying will just prevent this arrangement<BR>from succeeding.<P>* Either one of us should inform the spouse when we are planning to see the<BR>other person, or immediately after an unplanned meeting. There is no need<BR>to inform the spouse regarding phone calls.<P>* There should be little if any discussion about what the spouse did or<BR>said with the other person...unless agreeable to both parties.<P>* If going on a date with the other person, let the spouse know if there is<BR>a chance you may not be coming home before morning or not. If a date turns<BR>into an unplanned all-nighter, a call to the spouse would be considered a<BR>good idea (if possible).<P>* Either spouse has the right to call it quits in regards to this arrangement at any<BR>time.<P>* We should both vigorously agree to these ground rules, and not break them<BR>or throw anything back in our spouses face later.<P>* Exposure of our kids to the other person and / or their children should be kept to a <BR>minimum.<P>* Take care of each other. This could be a real difficult time, and we need each others support.<P>Again, any input on this subject is welcome. We are taking off into unchartered waters!<P> <BR>

If this works it would be an amazing thing, I think.<P>I read your ground rules. I am (and this doesn't happen often) speechless.<P>I can't imagine this... but boy, it sure puts a twist on building your marriage!<P>Do I sound stupid? I am truly at a loss... but am so interested in this... kinda like when you drive by an accident... shouldn't look, but just can't help myself. <P>Keep us posted how this goes... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Sounds like you have an OW all set up and waiting. Just a few questions that struck me; about your chosen victim:<P>Is she married?<P>Does she know about your situation, that you'll drop her like a hot potato if your wife comes around?<P>Someone else said it, but is this really fair to your chosen OW? My h was honest about being married, so the OW knew what she was getting into. It didn't help her pain when it came time to break all contact!!!<P>Since learning of my h's infidelity, I've thought about going "out there" myself, but I've really thought about how I don't really have anything to offer another man right now.

MJINGIT:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The goal of this plan would be for her to get her fill of him, since it seems I cannot meet this need even as hard as I try. She has not taken necessary steps to remove him from the picture, so this is one way of dealing with the situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah---a really crappy way, as far as your marriage is concerned...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We are doing this to avoid divorce, and possibly save our marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This may be the intent, but it's with a very bad plan that virtually has no chance to succeed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We separated before, and that just gave them free time to be together, so separating just doesn't work in our case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hate to tell you, but that's part of the beauty of Plan B. That they do spend lots of time together---so that the fantasy will end once and for all... Plan B was working perfectly; you just didn't give it time.<P>Your complaint is that you can't afford the expense of Plan B or the hurt on the kids. So you're going to divorce (which is MORE expensive and causes MORE PAIN for the kids). The rule list you've drawn up is absurd---if you left out the rules about dating other people, you'd have Harley's "Four Rules" summarized---and your wife is clearly not practicing those at this point.<P>Regardless of the lack of morality of this situation, this plan is a disaster for your marriage. It's going to build up resentment. It's going to cause both your lovebanks to lose units faster. It's going to give other's opportunities to make "deposits". It's going to hasten your divorce.<P>Your best bet would be to do a REAL plan A followed by a REAL plan B. And I would suggest that you call Steve Harley for guidance, because if you're serious about wanting your marriage, you truly need some professional guidance with making a plan that's going to work.<P>I find that you have a "date" already lined up as suspicious---it would appear to me that you haven't been doing what you needed to be doing in Plan A---one thing is to avoid close friendships with people of the opposite sex. <P>Remember, to save your marriage, you need to have the affair end, and you need to build love back. This plan doesn't address any of these issues.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited January 11, 2000).]

MJINGIT,<BR>Speechless is indeed a great word. I have a couple of comments. I do not understand first off how a separation would be any less of a financial burden than a divorce (two residences and the related bills apply in either instance). If you are considering divorce, you might REALLY want to consider Plan B - and do it at 100%, maybe not fair but I suspect that the first time you tried this you were still hurting so badly you may have "overstepped" some of the ground rules. My second comment is related to the kids - exposure to other and kids to a minimum....seems just as harmful (or more so) than divorce. Children learn what they live. If they see it as acceptable that mom and pop are together but that there are others in their lives, they may find it hard to accept the notion of one committed love for life, whereas if you divorce and remain committed to friendship/parentship, they will see that indeed you commit to one person at a time and try (???) your best to work things out BEFORE calling it quits or finding someone else - not at the same time. Sorry, I don't mean this to sound like a lecture - I hurt for you, I just don't want you to hurt any more or prolong your healing unnecessarily.<BR>Cheers! You will pull through this.<BR>Lisa

MJINGIT:<P>Ah, polyamory. Funny how that always pops up -- immature people who can't commit, who have to scratch every itch, intellectualizing their cheating by saying that they just have a bigger capacity for LOVE than most people, and that one person just can't absorb it.<P>Yeah, right. You know that stuff that the carriage horses in New York leave on the street?<P>That's what this is.<P>I've known polyamorists. In the circles I've known them, they tend to be science fiction fandom types, usually phenomenally unattractive, always very bright, who have been so rejected by what they call the "mundane" world that they've created this whole "polyamory" thing to justify that in fact, they're going to get as much as they can in their own circle.<P>Esquire magazine did an article recently on what they called a "group marriage." Basically, it was a couple that habitually keeps bringing in another two people --the cast of characters changing periodically. There are whole organizations devoted to this crap -- there's one called "Loving More" (Yecch!), and they even have a Web site. <P>It's all intellectual bulls**t, loaded with fallacious reasoning (as in FALLACY, folks, not having to do with oral sex!).<P>Yeah, sure, we get attracted to other people during our adult lives. But being an adult is about NOT scratching every itch. It's about NOT acting on every impulse. We are ADULTS, not four-year-olds. You can intellectualize it all you want, it's about instant gratification and immaturity, not about "philosophy."<P>Look, guy, it's your marriage. I'm not going to picket your house. And if what you want is to put yours someplace else because your wife is, that's fine. Then call it "reciprocal cheating." But don't put it in a pretty dress and call it polyamory and tell me that you just have a greater capacity for love than most people.<P>It sounds like Daffy Duck: "I'm not like most people...pain hurts me."<P>Bah humbug.

Yeah, what k said!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My wife and I have been in Plan "A"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If she was in Plan A then she would eliminate all Love Busters. An affair is definitely a Love Buster. Plan A & Plan B is not something you do as a couple. They are something you do as an individual for the sake of the marriage.<P>She is having an affair & you are ready to file for divorce. In order to make it less painful, you're considering having an "open" marriage whereby you can have an affair too. How is this going to make it less painful for you?<P><B>1.) We would hurt so much the first time the other goes out, we will stop it immediately.</B><BR>Um, she's ripping your heart out now & she isn't stopping it. By her telling you she's going out with him, it'll actually be less painfull for her since you "agreed" she could.<P><B>2.) Something will change in our relationship while in this agreement, and we could determine to stop it in order to work on our marriage. Again, I look at this like an extended Plan "A"...just with the lies and sneaking taken out of it (remember, we both know she is going to do it anyway).</B><BR>Absolutely things will change! Plan A doesn't include lies or sneaking for those who are actually doing it (you are, your ewiffe isn't)<P><B>3.) It will turn into an agreement we can live with for some time...and would be a better situation for our kids and finances than a divorce would be.</B><BR>Since you'll be saving money by not getting a divorce (at least yet, but eventually...) then it's okay for both of you to screw around. Pretty good morals to teach the kids.<P><B>4.) It won't work, and we will get divorced...which would have probably already happened if we wouldn't have tried this approach.</B><BR>Most likely of the scenarios.<BR>Why not try a Plan A/B as outlined and get counseling from Steve Harley (1-888-639-1639) as to the best way to approach it. No offense, but it seems as if you have very, very little understanding of how these plans are supposed to work.<P>As far as your "ground rules" are concerned, leave out the bits about seeing others & you'll have a pretty good start at a marriage.<P>What if one of you "breaks" the rules? Divorce? Why wait until one of you (most like you) gets hurt first?<P>If you get divorced, why are you going to be concerned about her finances or for that matter anything about her?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>