If Plan A is about showing love all the time, wooing back your spouse, and never saying the negative things you are feeling(ya know, 'cause it's a lovebuster)... then doesn't that go against the whole TOTAL HONESTY idea?<P>You want to say something because you are feeling it, but you don't because it will hurt your spouse - therefore, isn't that ommission? On another thread, a person was told that *not telling* her spouse about her EA was the same as lying, because it is ommission. How is this different?<P>Seriously.<P>If you're talking about infidelity, you always tell all - TOTAL HONESTY. But if you're talking about your hurt feelings it is a lovebuster, so you don't tell all...<P>I guess I'm a pretty black and white thinker. It's all or nothing to me. I'm having a VERY hard time with this one.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Sheryl -- You know I am no expert, but I don't believe talking about how you feel is necessarily a lovebuster. I think it's <B>how</B> you discuss it. If you just relate how you are feeling without assigning blame, I think you should tell.<P>Our goofball joint therapist actually had a good tool for this..."I feel" statements. Instead of just saying what your partner does that is wrong, etc., you say something like..."You know, I feel <insert emotion here> when you <insert offending action here>, I would feel better if you <insert more acceptable action here>". This way, you are able to get across how you feel and why without getting negative about it....<P>My two cents...<P>Hugs..<P>--DeWayne--

Sheryl,<P>Plan-a isn't being dishonest or disigenuos, or showing love all the time. It's about not committing lovebusters.<P>There is a little gray area, on the dishonesty part. You have to put it in the disrespectful judgment category. If it pertains to your feelings, maybe even angry outbursts. Honestyr is telling David about the events in your life. When it comes to your feelings if you tell him things to make him feel guilty, that is a disrespectful judgment. If you tell him somethintg that has you angry it may become an angry outburst. Always letting him know how you feel could be looked upon as an anoying behavior. Lastly depending on what you would like to tell him it could be selfish demands.<P>Only you will be able to know how what you feel falls into any of those categories.<P>The other part of plan-a is to try to meet basic emotional needs when you can.<P>From what I've learned if you do these things on a consistant basis your H will eventualy feel "romantic" love for you again.<P>Do you have Harley's book lovebusters? I highly recomend it.<P>Plan-a is very difficult especialy when you have alot of anger and resentment. You will need to find an avenue to vent it.<P>Always have the filter between your brain and your mouth <B>fully</B> enguaged when you speak.<P>Please don't misconstrue my using the word you, I mean it in the third person form.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Sheryl,<P>My perspective from sessions with Steve:<P>Right now when things are very delicate between you and David, you should <B>avoid</B> talking about things that are upsetting to him. My impression was that you wait until there is a bit more stability and commitment to work on things together, before you start bringing all these things up. <P>It is akin to a festering wound and you keep picking at it. It needs to heal over a bit, before you start to fool with it. Hope this helps!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Dewayne and Sherly,<P>My shrink gave me the I feel routine. If you really think about it it is sugar coating disrespectful judgements, be they right or wrong. All yhe OP hears is I am wrong, do it your way, you know all.<P>Thats how I react to the I feel bit.<P>LBs are very tricky and not at all fair. Keep that in mind.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Good analogy, Desiree.<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

<B>DeWayne</B>,<P>Hi ... I totally understand about the "I" statements. I am an expert in therapy . Here's the thing. If <B>David</B> feels that something is a lovebuster, even if I don't, then it is! Right? <P>So, we're trying to decide what to do about our marriage. We both want him kinda sorta to come back (and I say it like that because it isn't love that is driving us back together, but finances - yes, love is there, but not enough to keep us together yet). We try to "not talk" about the marriage, but then something happens, like say... uh... I go to work where the OM is... or he goes to the church where the "church ladies" are... and there we are in Lovebuster-ville!! See? <P>Even with all the tools, there isn't a way to say things sometimes... let's take the church thing...<P>Me: "David, I feel threatened when you go to the church where C goes"<P>David: "I know, and I'm sorry, but I'm going."<P>Okay... so where did that go? Noplace. He knows, does it anyway, nothings changed. See?<P><B>Bill</B><P>I guess look at my example above... I just don't get it... if it's about not committing lovebusters and putting out any disrespectful judgments, there is NO WAY to do that without being dishonest. <P>You gave an example: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When it comes to your feelings if you tell him things to make him feel guilty, that is a disrespectful judgment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, so I can't say that I feel threatened when he visits the church where this woman goes. That's a disrespectful judgement? <BR>Or maybe a selfish demand?<P>Hmmm...<P>I get the part about meeting his basic emotional needs when I can. Now if only I could get him to fill out the emotional needs form... I have to guess, you know?<P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From what I've learned if you do these things on a consistant basis your H will eventualy feel "romantic" love for you again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And what will he have to do to make me feel "romantic" love for him again? Again, I will get blasted because I'm being selfish. I don't feel romantic love for him either. What am I to do??<P>And finally, re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Always have the filter between your brain and your mouth fully enguaged when you speak.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, <B>that</B>!! Yeah, I seem to have a bit of trouble with that one!! <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Hi Desiree... posting at the same time <P>Yes, I agree, and I took the long way to say it in Bill's reply.<P>Very delicate times right now... very!<P>I'm scared to death... David really does want to move back in, but he's at church right now trying to pray about it and then have lunch with his friend and discuss it. This is the friend who had some women David might be interested in lined up... a man who's first wife cheated on him and he *hates* what I've done to David... you can sense my apprehension???<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Sheryl,<P>I completely understand your dilema.Until you guys decide to reconcile, for what ever reason, your in plan-a. WhEN YOU DECide to reconcile then you go to the polisy of joint agreement. Then you apply the four rules of a successful marriage.<P>Rule of Care: Meet there basic emotional needs.<P>Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of their unhappiness.<P>Rule of Honesty: Be completely open and honest w/each other.<P>Rule of Time: Set aside time to give your spouce youir undevided attention, at least 15 hours a week.<P>I have been assured if I do these thing my W and I will feel Romantic love.<P>Until the commitment is made to rebuild I'm in plan-a, or plan-b.<P>Plan-a means zero LBs no matter what. So if you have to be somewhat dishonest to keep from commiting LBs so be it. I do it every day. Why? because I believe in the family unit.<P>Take RMAs example and build on it.<BR>That is if you want your marrige to work. That is the big question you have to ask yourself.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

You know what <B>Bill</B>?? I can answer your question with a resounding "YES, but..."<P>I know... selfish again, and waffling. I want it to work if we don't get hurt anymore, if we can trust each other, if we can change the things that brought us to this point in the first place...<P>I'm in counseling, he's not. I'm on meds, he's not. I'm taking our son to counseling and learning about how to discipline a kid with special needs (and the older daughters, as well, which present a whole bunch of other problems), he's not. <P>So, what's he doing? He's working his a** off trying to support his family and his own lifestyle (his apartment and side work). And that's a lot.<P>He says he loves me, I say I love him. Neither of us feel {blech in advance} "in love" or "romantic love" at all. We miss each other, we miss our "family". <P>I just don't know. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Hi Sheryl,<BR> I understand exactly what you mean.After my W disclosed her affair,I did the plan A thing.All it did,was make her disrespect me even more.I think she felt I should of blown up,and kicked her butt out of the house.Instead,I told her I loved her,and wanted to work things out.I tried to tell her how much she meant to me.It seemed to backfire.She couldn't understand how I could be nice to her,and felt I needed therapy for being too co-dependant,and not having any self-respect.So much for Plan A.Later,I felt that maybe I had lost my self-respect and should of gotten furious with her,for betraying me after 22 years of marriage.Sometimes I wonder if the"tough love" aproach(plan B)would of been better,right off the bat.I guess I have a hard time with this one,too. --Murph

Right <B>Murph</B>... <P>...and I can see what happened to you too... because I've been on the other side of that too; I also betrayed. My H did the Plan B thing first. He moved out and it ripped my heart out. <P>I don't know the answers... gosh, I'm trying to find them though. If Plan A makes your W think you're a wuss, and the instant Plan B made me feel like a worm who didn't deserve forgiveness, then what plan is there? <P>Yeah, in Harley-world you have a "seamless" Plan A into Plan B thing going. You woo them back and then when they won't you Plan B them into reality. <P>I wish I knew the answers... that's all I can say, because I have a H at church right now without me with him (I'm not invited and at this point have been so trash-mouthed that I wouldn't go if I were... we need to find a NEW church together) and I'm sitting here at the computer on a Sunday morning... and we're lucky to spend 5 hours together, let alone <B>15</B> (he's told me that there's NO WAY that 15 can happen!)...<P>Okay, I admit it... I'm totally confused. <BR> <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

OK, my two cents: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have a H at church right now without me with him (I'm not invited and at this point have been so trash-mouthed that I wouldn't go if I were... we need to find a NEW church together)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why are you not invited? Is it <B>because</B> of the things you have said? Or is it because David wants to keep that aspect of his life "private" and away from you?<P>If the former, that you have been, in the past, so down on the church, then you have an opportunity to show him your willingness to meet him halfway. You may NEED to go with him to that church - to show that congregation that he has a WIFE - a wife who is willing to work at putting her marriage back together. WE know you're working - but "C" doesn't, really, and others at David's church can only speculate - and assume! You may NEED to swallow your pride on this and say to him, "David, I know that I haven't been too complimentary about your church in the past. Perhaps I've made some disrespectful judgments about it. Next Sunday, I'd like to go to church with you. I'd like to have the opportunity to meet the people you know and experience what it is that you experience there. Perhaps sharing our spirituality will bring us closer."<P>If, on the other hand, it is because he wants to keep that part of his life "private" then I'm not sure how you might handle it. Maybe someone else has a good idea?<P>:: I wish it was all as simple as doing what everyone suggests ...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>:: I wish it was all as simple as doing what everyone suggests ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I believe it is as simple as everyone suggests.<P>Noone has even hinted that it is easy.<P>It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do.<P>All it takes is willingness and resolve.<P>It is that simple.<P>I realy think you guys can do this, Sheryl.<P>Hang loose and don't commit any LBs for some time. Let the wounds heal some, and when your <B>ready</B> give it 100%.<P>This isn't a race. Time and patience are what you need.<P>You will have to let the anger and resentment roll off your back.<P>If david visits the boards. Email you frustrations to places he can't see them. My mailbox is always open.<P>Hang in there, you <B>can</B> do this.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Sheryl,<BR>To tell you the truth, I really don't know what to say, but I care. And that you and David are in my prayers. <BR>I will say this though: I think both you and David have walls built up away from each other. Both of you are afraid of getting hurt again by each other. But to truly work this marriage out, you guys are going to have to tear down those walls as hard as it maybe. Because to love is to be vunerable. It is those that are closest to us that has the most impact on our lives. But if we try to sheild ourselves by building walls, we can never truly love and welcome the love that the other is trying so desperately to give. I don't know Sheryl. Listen to Bill, he always shares good advice. I just wanted to let you know that I care.<BR> <BR> <P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>

<B>terri</B>,<P>The reason I don't go to church with him is that from the beginning, I wasn't invited, and yes, this was his private domain. I did go once, when the first woman surfaced, just to show that he had a wife. <P>My quicky church history is this: David and I (and our children) ALWAYS went together to the same church. Then we got involved in an abusive fundamental baptist church and everyone stopped going. It was a bad scene with the minister, and I was the church secretary. It was VERY BAD. Nobody wanted to go to any church except my oldest daughter and I, and we joined the Episcopal church which had a female minister. It's a Christian church, but worships differently than the usual baptist service. David didn't like it - still doesn't. He chose a foursquare church. I'm sure you can imagine the difficulty for us as a family. Mom and one sis at one church, dad at another, other two kids hate church. So there you have it. Now where was I??<P>... we need to find a NEW church together)<BR> <BR>Ah <B>Bill</B>, <P>you are becomming quite a wise guy... did that come out right? Not a wise-guy, but a wise man, not like the three wise men , but a man of wisdom. There! That's what I meant to say!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This isn't a race. Time and patience are what you need.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES! I understand.<P><B>jamie-lee</B><P>Thank you for caring... and yes, David and I DO have those walls built up away from each other. In counseling, I am working on "my wall" and it's a tedious process...<P><B>Everyone</B>,<P>It looks like David is indeed going to move back in. We're gonna try again... I'm honestly not sure if this is the best course of action... he's only been gone a couple of weeks... but he's so lonely, and I love him enough not to want to keep him from the thing that matters most to him: his family, and he is spending hundreds of dollars on rent and utilities that could be used to register one car, repair mine, pay for our son's counseling... there's just so much.<P>Pray for us... we <B>need</B> it - BIG TIME!<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Sheryl,<BR> <BR>Any luck getting David to go to your lady-pastor counselor???<P>The one thing that sticks out for me in your posts and David's is this: There is alot of hidden and not so hidden anger and resentment between the two of you.[fighting my own anger right now!] Jamie-lee talked about the walls - yes, I see them as walls of anger and resentment that are holding the love back from coming out. <P>I think you two won't be able to make any real progress on the in-love part until the resentment and anger are addressed. When the time is right, try to see if you can get him to go to the lady-pastor counselor.<P>How is the redecorating coming??? I went to church, worked out at the healthclub, shampooed some of my carpet, changed flood lights and cooked up a storm. Trying to redirect my focus onto other things. Hey, it really does help to take your mind off your troubles for a bit!!! <P>Luv ya,<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<P>Thanks for the continued thoughts... well, as far as counseling, David (honest to god) does not believe he needs it. He isn't available to go with me because he works nights anyway. <P>I am happy with my redecorating, and David knows it, which has been a hinderance to his returning. He's worried because I seem so happy with "my space" (hint* I am) but, I do love him so, and I do hate to see him so alone... I can't help it... I love him. I don't know if this will work, but I'm willing to try.<P>Also, I'm really working hard with Liz on the wall of anger/resentment/hurt. We all have one, you know? Mine is SO BIG <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Just an update on our very confusing and up-in-the-air marriage and recovery...<P>David and I had a very long talk this evening, and decided that he will not be moving back in after all. There's a zillion reasons for this decision, and I have no idea how I feel about it. <P>A friend said to me recently that my marriage, or lack thereof, is becomming a "lifestyle"... this not being together but kinda sorta still together thing we are doing. I have never felt such complete emptiness and aloneness in my life. I can't make David happy, and I can't make me happy. I can try on both fronts, and I think I'm making some headway with both of us, I guess. Liz has been a wonderful counselor, and that has helped me to help and love myself. I so wish David could find a "Liz" for himself. <P>Keep on praying for us, okay? We need it!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Sheryl,<P>Once again your pain comes through each and every word. You try so hard only to be let down.<P>Maybe it's time to step back and not do any work. I know God has a plan for you. Give Him time to do his work.<P>Take time to get to like yourself again. How can we love another when we can't love ourselves.<P>This whole thing is an emotional game of chess. The slightest mistake and we are in check with not to many options.<P>I don't know what more to say.<P>Extra prayers for you tonight.<P>In case no one told you that they love you today, I do.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>