Hi Everyone: My husband has been home since a year ago last week after a short separation of 7 weeks. During that seven weeks, he had a three weekend fling with a woman out of state who deliberately became pregnant and had a child on August 20th this year. The DNA is positive and we fly to the east coast for a court appearance on February 17th for the support decision.<BR>Withdrawal lasted four and a half months. He snapped out of it in late May. A year ago, he went through treatment for his alcoholism, but he began drinking the weekend I went to the Grand Canyon with my daugher in late April for the time I was gone. He stopped drinking until late September. In October it progressed to two or three occurances. November was heavy drinking, December was heavier yet. Until this weekend, I thought December 30th was his last 'wet' day. he went to a meeting Monday night, I went to Alanon-then I got sick with the flu so our plans to attend an open meeting on Friday night were cancelled.<BR>Late Friday afternoon, he went to pick up some parts we needed, and managed to pick up a half gallon of Canadian and a sick pack of Guiness. today's Sunday and there is just a half of his bottle left and he spent yesterday passed out on the sofa and today, same scenario. <BR>He is racked with shame and remorse and I try like hell not to beat him up about it and practice the hands off Alanon policies, but, I have been through so much, I don't know how much longer I can survive this.<BR>He's been wonderful to me through the loss of my Grandfather, taking care of me while I've been sick, looking after me and making my lunch and coffee for when I go to work everyday. He is considerate, kind, focused on us (and his careful protection of his alcohol)<BR>The other day he asked me not to give up on him, asked me not to hate him for this disease. I don't hate him. I know he's sick as hell. I know I really can't help him, that all I can do is take care of myself and be kind to him and pray that God will help him get sober and be like he used to be. He was sober for over 17 years before he started drinking again in December 1997. It progressed so quickly that by summer 1998, he was crazed. In the fall he left me and started up with the woman out east. It's been an awful two years.<BR>Anyone have any insight as to whether or not you can Plan A your spouse into sobriety, lessening the guilt and remorse they feel without badgering and threatening? I suppose these are the questions for my Alanon group, but, I was wondering if there is anyone out there with a similar problem that might have any ideas. Thanks Catnip <BR>

catnip,<BR>I have no advice for you, but I want you to feel my support. I'm so sorry you're going through this. May angels surround and guide you.<P>Best wishes again,<BR>Jenny

Catnip,<P>Wow.. where to begin...<P>I am a recovering drug addict, I attend NA meetings regularly, I have a sponsor, I sponcor guys, and I work the steps. I have been clean 3 1/2 years.<P>Your question can you plan-a someone into sobriety? Yes and no.<P>I'll say no first because in my experience nothing I do will get someone to stop using. It takes what it takes. Was your H attending meetings during his 17 years of sobriety. If he activly worked an AA program then relapsed, his road back is a very steep uphill climb. I don't mean to squash you hope, this is my experience. When he started drinking again, he didn't pick-up where he left off. He picked up as if he had never quit. That is why his downward trend happened so fast. It sounds as if he found the bottom, how long he stays there is up to him, there is absolutely nothing you can do to get him to quit. I don't want to sugar coat this, I like things hard and strait. This is how it is for a drunk. When he realises his powerlessness over alcohol <B>and</B> his life is truly unmanageble, will he ask for help. If he has any recovery, he knows what he has to do. Picking up a white chip after you <B>had</B> 17 yrs. will be the hardest thing he ever does. I have a friend that had 13 yrs then relapsed, it took him 9 months to recommitt, then another 6 months to stop beating himself up. Next month he picks up his one year chip. It can be done it will take an [censored]-load of willingness on his part.<P>Now for the yes part, plan-a him as long as you don't enable him. This is a very thin line, and very treachorous. <B>Be careful</B>.<BR>Definatly go to al-anon, get a sponcor and start working the steps. This will give you the power to love your H and not enable him. It will allow you to be there fot him when he decides to get sober.<P>I hope I helped my mailbox is on the email exchange if you want to talk more.<P>Pray alot for him.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Thank you Jenny for your never ending support, dear old friend. And thank you, Bill, for your response.<P>Bill, Congratulations on your sobriety of 3 and a half years. Being a spouse of an addict/alcoholic is a surrealistic experience to be sure. when david was sober for those 17 years, he went to meeting the first couple years sporadically but then never went after that. However, because he was spiritual and had his daily meditations and read daily, I neveer pushed him or chided him. I guess I was complacent. he had no desire to drink. He would tell me over and over and over again for all those years right up until and even at times during his relapse that he was so grateful to God for our blessings and gifts and that he couldn't believe how good all this was. that's why when it all fell apart so suddenly and so quickly, I was completely unprepared. When he took up with the OW, I was stunned beyond belief. Just weeks prior to that he was telling me of his gratitude and how lucky we were, how in love...blah, blah, you know the drill. That's why this alcoholism thing is so insidious and sneaks up on you with a whole basket of nightmare surprises. everything becomes unreal and you question your own sanity. Alanon has been intermintent at best throughout the years as well. So complacent, the two of us. neither working the program. Too busy, too involved in the day to day bs to take care of the illness-until it was too late and reared it's ugly head like it was waiting dormant for all those years just waiting to pull the rug out from under us.<BR>The guilt and remorse he is experiencing has such depth that he is suicidal. What he did last fall was so out of character for him that he is as stunned as I am that these things really did occur...and the outcome of that fling is devastating, as you can well imagine. He is more than willing to go into detox tomorrow. I am worried about him tonight, however, because his breathing is so weird and yet he refuses to go tonight. I worry about alcohol poisoning because he has consumed vast amounts of alcohol over the past two days. I called his counselor at Hazelden today and left a voice mail but she must not have gotten it yet. i'll probably hear from her tomorrow. So I called Hazelden again tonight and talked to her assistant because of his talks of suicide and to find a detox center in the area for him to go to tomorrow. The assistant told me that if he is threatening suicide, to call the police and have him picked up and they will place a madatory hold on him at the hospital for evaluation for 72 hours. I might have to do this because he is extremely suicidal and has been for a year or more.<P>Neither of us have ever had a sponsor and both of us were so cocky about his ability to stay sober for all those years that now it's come to bite us firmly and squarely on our collective asses. And I suppose it's probably what the logical consequences are for our sins of omission.<P>I am pragmatic enough to realize that detox or a repeat of treatment may or may not work for him under the circumstances, however, I obviously am not one to throw in the towel and the last dog hasn't been hung yet, so I plan to take it to the limit, one more time.<P>Bystander, dear friend, are you here? I am going to shoot you a quick e-mail to read this post to update you on the latest. I may not be in touch tomorrow and I have a couple calls to make tonight. Pray for David tonight. Thanks.<P>Bill, I know I sound alarmed (I am) and terrified (very) but I can't get to Alanon until tomorrow night. Thanks for strpping in to talk to me about this. I know the program works if one works the program. God bless and sincere thanks. Catnip

bill: Where's your e-mail address? I can't find it and I think David might like to talk to you. Catnip

I don't know if Plan A will help lead an alcoholic to sobriety, but I sure hope it does. My husband is a long time alcoholic, quit drinking for 5 years 12 years ago, and in the last 3 years had become a daily slobbering drunk. He has cut back some since we reconciled but still drinks, in fact he drank until he passed out yesterday. <P>I think the combination of Al-Anon, Plan A, and prayer will work. But WilliamJ is right, we can't enable them. Sounds like your H is real close to hitting bottom, if he hasn't already. Mine isn't close yet. I know its going to get worse before it gets better. Like your H, when mine started drinking again, it was a little at first (weekends only) then a little more and a little more after that. Within 2 years he was drinking every day, then drinking to passing out almost every day. <P>I wish I could say Plan A worked to get them sober, but it hasn't in my case. <P>

catnip,<P>wconklin@caroilna.rr.com<P>Complacency kicked mine and my Ws butt too.<P>Did you grt him to detox.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

<BR>Catnip,<P>Both my spouse and I come from families were alcoholism was a problem, but my W probably has more insight on this than I do. I agree with the others that whatever you do, you cannot become an enabler of his behavior.<P>My personal hunch, based on the timeline of your tale, is that your H is hitting bottom right as the court decision is about to be handed down. He's perhaps afraid that the child support award will break you two financially. In short, not only is the guilt and remorse for what he's done causing this, I'd guess a good part of it is fear over the financial consequences of his betrayal, and the possibility that he'll lose you as a result.<P>You can't treat his repeatedly mentioning suicide as an empty threat. Its obvious he needs detox, but I also think the suicide threats need to be dealt with, too. I don't know what that would entail (temporarily committing him to a mental health facility?), you'll need to find an expert for this.<P>Check your email. We're here for you.<P>Bystander

Another recovering drunk/addict chiming in.<P>The desaese is progresive in nature which means that even though a alcoholic has been dry (notice I didn't say sober) for years, the illness progresses. Once they drink again, it's as if they never stopped. The maintenance drunk can almost immeidately go the fall down drunk within weeks. Ultimately, for almost every alcoholic who fails to achieve sobriety, the result is jails, institutions or death. I;m not kidding!!!<P>No one can get an alcoholic sober. A wife, husband or other loved ones can help but they must never, never enable. This includes covering up for the drunk, bailing them out, anything that allows them to drink and/or not face the full brunt of their consequences.<P>By all means, go to Al-Anon and you personally work the steps to recovery. The 12 steps can be applied to virtually any aspect or problem in our lives. As for your H, to truly achieve sobriety, he must hit another "bottom" to get motivated, attend at least one meeting a day, get a sponsor, say his prayers, help another drunk, and WORK THE STEPS. Otherwise, all one has is a "dry drunk". True sobriety is not just the absence of alcohol in our system, it's handling life on life's terms and possessing the coping skills and tools to be a mentally healthy individual.<P>Good luck and GO TO MEETINGS.

New Man: Thanks for what you have written. David gets out of Detox tomorrow and I will save your post for him to remind him there are many out there experiencing the same demons he faces. I will invite him to dialogue on the forum, if he is so inclined.<P>Gratefully, <BR>catnip

Hello all,<P>I'm not a recovering alcholic, or drud addict. My mom is though(10yrs).<P>I ahve learned by watching that only the sick person can help themself. <P>Some advice though- <BR>1. Focus on yourself- Go to meetings<BR>2. Read the first 164pgs pf the BIG BOOK<BR>3. Treat him with kindness and love, BUT DONT ENABLE HIM.<P>When he hits rock bottom, Like I'm sure he did before he will come around. My moms friends are all drunks and alcoholics.<P>They stay clean, by working the steps, and going to meetings<P>KEEP GOING BACK, IT ONLY WORKS IF YOU WORK IT<P>Good luck<P>Paul(a drunk addicts son)<P>------------------<BR>brownphdt<P>