<BR>Hi All -<P>OK...I need some brainstorming <BR>from you folks!! Mine's getting <BR>dull because I am living this and <BR>perhaps can't see it all.....<P>Sorry that I have been so lax <BR>about being here....have been <BR>trying to not concentrate on <BR>"relationships" too much and yet <BR>have this "pattern" stuck in my <BR>head.....I haven't even gotten <BR>back to my last thread!! I stop <BR>by - comment on a couple of <BR>threads and suddenly I'm drained <BR>for the day with this. Is that <BR>normal? Or is his <BR>"Whack-a-doodling" rubbing off? <P>For those who don't know my story <BR>my H moved out, is divorcing me, <BR>several lay-dies and one <BR>particular OW, throws some whacky <BR>statements and behaviors at me to <BR>the positive of "us" while <BR>continuing to "do his thing".<P>Seems that H is still in this <BR>pattern that I feel has been <BR>going on since before he moved <BR>out in some ways......<P>Basically it is that he comes to <BR>me for two reasons....<P>1) when he is down, lonely, <BR>unbusy, sad, angry, <BR>frustrated....with others in his <BR>life or if he feels melancholy <BR>about our life.<P>2) when he wants or needs <BR>something (whether that is <BR>material, emotional or logical <BR>"things"), when he's pressured <BR>about divorce, when he feels <BR>guilty and wants to "check" on <BR>me!!<P>The pattern I usually see is that <BR>when the timing fits that he <BR>would be away from OW (like just <BR>left her place to go get ready <BR>for work, at work, etc) he will <BR>call..... On his days off - don't <BR>hear from him unless he works <BR>Overtime. <P>A while back, I tried to shake up <BR>his "pattern" by paging him for <BR>legitimate reasons at varying <BR>times....when he took a while <BR>getting back to me, I knew that I <BR>"Interrupted" him when he was <BR>with her. From the way he would <BR>start pushing about the divorce <BR>in our next contact - it seems <BR>that some stress is caused if it <BR>is known that he and I talk. <P>This culminated in H picking a <BR>fight that I actually allowed <BR>myself to participate in with him <BR>and he didn't speak with me for <BR>awhile....some may remember that!<P>Now the same pattern of calling <BR>when he's away from her and his <BR>making statements like "I'll come <BR>by (or call) tomorrow" etc. <BR>followed by not doing what he <BR>says is back........<P>I don't know what to do to break <BR>this pattern.....<P>By calling him previously, I was <BR>attempting two things - breaking <BR>the easy pattern of having it all <BR>and fanning the flames of OW <BR>lovebusting.....<P>When he stopped speaking to me, <BR>that ended that experiment!!<P>He has said alot of wishy-washy <BR>things and I have no idea where <BR>his thoughts are from moment to <BR>moment!! Divorce is imminent but <BR>I don't think the love is gone.<P>Where do I go from here....how do <BR>I change this rut of <BR>communication and shake up his <BR>little world without LB's or <BR>"educating?<P>He would/will go on with his arm <BR>hanging out of the wall forever!! <BR>He wants to be able to grab me <BR>when he needs to......<P>I want to be grabbed, but I want <BR>to do some grabbing too!!!!<P>What's my 180 here? (don't say <BR>Plan B please!!!!)<P>Should I start making comments <BR>about "our" lives ? We have not <BR>really approached the subject at <BR>all....he has total avoidance!!<P>How do I initiate or prompt <BR>contact? Do I say something <BR>about his not calling or coming <BR>by when he says he will? If so, <BR>what to say so as not to LB and to show that I will not be treated so disrespectfully? <P>How do I introduce anything <BR>without pushing him back to <BR>never-never land?<P>C'mon - Oh Wise Ones - thinking <BR>caps PLEASE!!!! LOL!!<P>THANKS in advance!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Thinking...thinking...thinking....<P>Have some meeting coming up, but I will get back eventually!<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Ok, Hate me.....Plan B

OK one quick idea.<P>Take some time to list all the whack-a-doodle statements. OK...I know this could take days or weeks, so stick with the highlights.<P>Pick a few conflicting statements or vagueisms and ask you H to define what he means.<P>Of course the setting and approach is key. Just thinking that asking questions for clarification may be better than sitting him down and giving him a talking to.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Just a thought if he is good at fixing things around the house break something and when he comes to fix it "grab him" any way you want. Have his favorite nighty on any thing.<BR>I don’t know maybe it’s a good plan I don’t know,<BR>Lesa<BR><P>------------------<BR>Take care and God Bless.<P> LMS20ish@cs.com <P><BR>

Hey, Sheba, <P>I can relate to this!!<P>Steve had me call my H and ask him for a date. He said, worse thing that could happen is that he would say no and it is no already by virtue of him not interacting with me. So, I called him and he said yes and we had a great time, but he never followed up. <P>Maybe consider inviting him somewhere as you would any other friend. I think key to getting back together is the wayward S being around the betrayed and feeling comfortable. Working onthe marriage makes him feel guilty and maybe he isn't ready for that either. What about spedning time together as FRIENDS???? It might work...<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Where have you BEEN, girl??<P>I'm with Desiree, she said it as I was thinking it. Ask him out. <P>He doesn't have a straight-thinking cell left in his brain, so talking is gonna muddle you up and I won't have a partner anymore.<P>But ask him out. See what happens. Just lunch or something. If that doesn't work, we'll try Plan 2. No, I don't know what that is yet, but we'll think of something!!<P>Luv ya!<P>Lori

Sheba,<P>I'm with Lori on this......<P>his whack-a-doodle thought patterns and logic circuits are short-circuited.....<P>talking probably will not help...things more often than not get twisted, misunderstood, etc......why put more stress on your wonderful, intelligent, fantastic self??<P>ask him out.<P>talk about everything else but the situation....act like best buddies, notice the waiter...and the waiter's tight pants...act like two single friends out for a nice evening....keep whack-a-doodle on his toes wondering what the heck is going on with you.....if nothing else...you'll send him back to her with some thoughts of you running thru his head....<P>just some thoughts......<P>Dylan<P>p.s.: MB has decided not to recognize me (soulloss) as a registered member, so I'm using H's identity....lol<P>------------------<BR>

I'm picturing you flitting around in a sexy little number while your H fixes you plumbing...no pun intended.<P>OK...I know this is serious. Sitting him down and putting him under a bright light won't help.<P>Isn't the last time you had a really good time with him was when he took you on a motorcycle ride? Can you negotiate another one?<P>Or you can wait until he makes a whack-a-doodle statement and then hold his feet to the fire to clarify what he is saying. Don't let him off the hook, so at least he goes away thinking about it.<P>But you have mainly said he wants whatever of you he wants on his own time schedule and resists anything else. Except in the event of a real emergency when he may come through, he only seems to want to give when it makes him feel good, so even his giving is about himself.<P>Hmmm.<P>Sheba, it may all come down to what you are willing to accept. If you want the same relationship when D, then you will probably have it. If you decide that is unacceptable, then you might want to decide what is acceptable. <P>Although your H may not think about it, I'm sure the status quo is his future expectation. If you are going to see your situation differently or take different actions, then I guess it would only be fair to tell him of your own expectations or your own bounderies in the future.<P>But then you gotta figure them out first...and love you Sheba...but when anyone suggests anything...you get a bit upset and seem to be unable to let go of your present situation if any other situation would present dissention or would terminate your relationship.<P>So I think you either got to pretty much take what you got and tweak it a bit or risk that things may either take a turn for the better or the worse, but be prepared to accept the outcome.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I send cards nothing much in them just a little reminder that I care and love him. I like coffeehouse cards by American Greeting cards. They have cards that are cards for encouragement, miss you. I seem to be in the same boat as you. Except I never see my H or get a response except through his parents. Every once in a while I write a letter. THat really shakes things up. Just an idea. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Sheba,<P>as Di pointed out - the cards. Steve H. did encourage me to send cards occasionally - with brief messages in them to remind him I love him. Maybe that is worth a shot...<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Sheba,<BR>When H says he is going to call or stop by, make sure that you tell him you will be counting on him doing just that. Let him know that you enjoy it when he does those things. Admiration is one of mens greatest emotional needs, see if somehow you can meet this need when he does contact you. I know you're down to the ninth hour and just hanging on. Remember, you cannot change him and make him the man that you think he can be. He can only be himself no matter how wacky that seems to the rest of us! Keep building yourself up and if that means staying away from here, don't feel guilty. We all love you here and like it when you come here, but we all want you to be the best you can be, even if that means we have to lose you.

Thanks Everyone for your replies.<P>Covenant - I don't hate you!! <BR>But I am not going to a "traditional" Plan B.....might come up with a Whack-A-Doodle version however!!!!!<P>LMS - My H isn't a mr fix-it when he was "normal" and now he is definitely not so inclined!!!! Sounds like a good idea for someone trying to get through to a spouse that is not so....broken....as my H is!!<P>RMA & Lostva - I have asked him "out" on a number of occasions....the responses varied from "yeah, sounds good" and then not showing up....to ....looking at me like I came from outer space and not answering.....to....."No, I'm busy"!!<P>He hasn't wanted to step foot out the door with me like a "normal" couple going to do something for a very long time!! The only things we have done together in the past couple of years is family gatherings!! A lot of those he didn't even go to...and they were for HIS family!!!! <P>Oh wait, I digress....we went camping Memorial Day Weekend last year!!! That went so well, that he LEFT after we came home!!!!!!! Actually, we had an OK time but the OW gave him the ultimatum cuz she didn't like him going away with his WIFE!!!!!!!<P>He is in total avoidance mode for the most part with everyone in his "old" life.....<P>He can't seem to get the "friend" concept - at least not when it's MY idea!!! I think it is the Guilties....<P>I realize that time changes things...so I continue to try!! It's his Birthday the beginning of February - so I will ask him to do something with me like lunch, dinner, whatever!! We'll see what happens.......<P>Hey Lori - got a Plan 2 yet?<P>Soulloss - thanks for responding!! I have been a friend to him.....I try to be as carefree and lighthearted as possible. It's so hard to do because he speaks of the "divorce" or money concerns whenever he talks with me and I try to change the conversation to light subjects and just get a laugh or two going on between us.... I think it has helped!!! Can't get much more going on though....I am frustrated with that!!! He does get agitated when I go out - I will explain further down in this post!<P>SDS - Hi there!! I know the cards are a great way to stay in touch and lets them know they are loved....I did that at the beginning for a while and H got upset with them and told me to stop - I did because it seemed a LB to him and that was not good!!! So, I switched to subtly saying things everytime that I talked with him...that seems to be the best route for him - he doesn't take that as LB'ing!! I don't think he could handle my being nice to him in such a way that he could see it everyday by reading it over and over!!<P>Might start it up again though, depending on where the next few conversations take us.....<P>Derby - Thanks for responding - I always look for you to, you know!! I feel that I do my best to get across how much I count on him coming through when he voluntarily offers to do something or come by - so much so that I sometimes think that maybe I should just slam him for not coming through!!! I feel taken advantage of (purely pride - I get over it fast!) and get ticked!!! Sometimes I think that just might be what he needs!<BR>That's when I get myself all confused!<P>I also continue to show my admiration for him.....which is VERY difficult when I want to throw up!!!!! I can do it though based on the few good qualities left in him now that I can focus on. Just have to train the brain not to think of the Unadmirable ones!!! <P>I can see that he can only be "himself" and how he lives in whatever "moment" h finds himself in.....I try to plow forward or hang back accordingly. I am working on me in the midst of all this which is really all that I can do to get a result I want!! A better me!!!! I feel bad when I see so many here and I want to be able to help....I just can't sometimes!! It's all too much......<P>FHL - I saved my mentor for last!! <BR>OK, I went through and picked some highlights of his whacky statements and when the opportunity presents itself - I will ask him about some of them....I have attempted this on one or two occasions with a couple of them and he responded by saying things like "I don't remember saying that" or "I never said that" UGH - how to get through the avoidance is my biggest problem I think!<BR>I am not sure if he would KNOW why he said some of this stuff!!! I will try though.....<P>Yes, the last time I enjoyed his company was the day we took the bike to go to see the twins for their birthdays....that joint visit was prompted by him cuz he didn't want to go alone and knew that he should go see them.... He has repeled any attempt by me to join in for another venture and he hasn't prompted any further ones. Stalemate? Withdrawing? Timing? Opportunity? Who knows......<P>I fully understand about my telling him my boundaries, expectations, etc....I KNOW what you are saying.. The problem that I see is that he doesn't CARE what I want, need, expect, etc.....He just sees his own!! That's why he is sticking to the divorcing (one of the reasons, at least) so he doesn't have to feel bad about his not caring!!!!<P>My biggest confusion seems to be - is this permanent "not caring" or is this a TIME thing? He is still in the affair - how much is part of that? How much is his character really changing? How do I figure it out? Can it be figured out?<P>See, what I mean? Nothing can be started while in an affair...isn't that pretty much what Harley says? That's why Plan A, etc. I am unsure if stating boundaries (when I can figure them out!) is along the lines of demands and judgements.....HELP!!!<P>I don't get upset..not with people's suggestions!! I am sorry if you got that impression...I didn't mean to send off that "vibe". It must just be the frustration - it's been a loooonnnnng haul for me and trying to fit these "do's and don'ts" to this particular whacky man with his background and thinking patterns is very hard!!! The norm doesn't apply to him in a lot of ways - I have found. And I found it out because I did "norm" stuff and it blew up in my face...he got more distant or turned it onto me!!!<P>Another factor is that I am just too darn open for my own good - YOU know that!!!! I am trying to apply better communication techniques and hopefully I will get stronger and more self confident with them...as of now, though - I think it sounds like it's coming from somewhere else (a counselor, etc.) and I feel nervous and uptight when not being as straightforward as I usually am......remember my "meat" conversation? That's me....nitty- gritty.....no fancy dance with the words, you know?<P>I am SCARED!!.....of doing too much...of not doing enough.....of losing the little bit that I have left of the man I love......about what to change....what not to change....When to do something and what....when not to do something and what..... ok, crying now!! UGH!!<P>I don't want you all to think that I dismiss anything that you say....I don't!! I listen to each and every one of you!! PLEASE don't think I get upset!! please.....<P>I don't even know if I have boundaries, FHL......Not with this situation anyway!<BR>Is that pathetic or what? I know that he is making bad choices and decisions, that he's going to end up the worse for all this....<P>And me? Well, life has stunk for a long time and probably will for some more...I have gotten through it!! My values, etc. still in tact.....I will be fine!!<BR>I HAVE learned...grown....gotten stronger and more in touch with my place in life and what I want it to be.<P>So, I am back to TIME.....will time tell? Or am I supposed to change my thinking? <P>I just want to move on the right course. I don't want to make moves that deviate from what I feel.....I would lose in the long run.<P>Maybe I can't let go of the present situation and risk desention or loss until the divorce....maybe then I will feel freer somehow to express my boundaries because as a "non-wife" I won't have the "better or worse, thick or thin" rationale that I have now? I don't know.....<P>How will H give a hoot about my boundaries when he convinced himself himself that he wants a divorce? If he doesn't want to allow himself to care about me, he sure as heck isn't going to care about any boundaries.....is he?<P>I really need your logic and calmness on this FHL......<P>I've got a little update - might as well attach it to this novel!!! LOL!!<P>H left a message on the machine the other day....I had gone out with friends for dinner, etc. and never got back to him. He left another message the next day - all riled up about my not returning his call from the previous day.<P>I paged him when I got home from work and he called right back - first words out of his mouth..."Why didn't you call me yesterday?" Told him I was out and just said "with friends, why?" when he asked where and with who......<P>He didn't like that too much!! WHY does he care? <P>We talked for a while....he brought up some stuff about "US" again. He asked if I told lawyer and counselor that the reason we were splitting up was because of a woman...I told him that that was one of many women, as well as many reasons - most of which I don't know because he never told me!!!<P>He then went into the "usual" spiel about how it's cuz I am not working..blah, blah.... I threw caution to the wind and said that "no, it's not! that is YOUR justification for your actions....that is not why we are splitting up!!" He kept insisting that it was and I told him "well, than that makes you the most shallow and callous person imaginable!!" To divorce someone you love over money? Even though we were doing OK financially? and with you spending a lot of money!" Where is the sense in that? Either you are greedy and shallow or are not thinking rationally - your choice!!"<P>He changed over to "You stopped sleeping in bed with me...." I responded with "You kicked me out" H - "no, you left the bedroom"....I said, "cuz you *****ed and moaned that I either snored or moved or something to the point where I was afraid to breathe!!!!" "Who the heck can try to relax to sleep with that BS going on!!!" He said "Well, I didn't see it that way...you just left the bed"<BR>I said "Then what were you trying to accomplish by moaning about me being there? It's not like you wanted sex with me or anything?" <P>He said, "you didn't have sex with me" and I said"cuz you didn't want THAT either!!! All my advances fell by the wayside, you told me that sometimes you go through phases of not "being in the mood!!" Little did I know that you were in the mood alright....just by the time you got to me..the "mood" was already taken care of!!!"<P>He changed subject again to "We just weren't happy and getting along" and I said "You're right! But it's the reasons behind it that I want to know....that's what made you give up and eventually leave me!" He said "You threw me out!" (referring to the one time I put his bags on the back porch after months of him not coming home at night!! - As soon as he knocked on the door that morning I let him in!!) and I laughed and said "OH yeah, like I did such a good job of that!! Leave it to me to be the only person in the world who throws out her husband but he doesn't leave for real until 9 months later.... I don't think that one flies, darling!!" He just laughed!!<P>We talked more - about mundane stuff - then he asked me for some housewares, apparently one of his roommates is leaving and taking alot of his stuff with him and H wants some of our extras.<P>I told him that it was no problem and as long as it's for the condo (meaning not her house) he could come and take what is needed if I am not using it. It better be at the Condo though, I said!<P>He waffled with when he was coming over and I said "Look, I have to work Friday, so if you want this stuff...come over early Saturday and we will spend a few hours going through stuff....I am not doing it for you alone!!" He liked that plan.. Before we hung up - I said "Call me before you come over so I am awake in case I am up late Friday nite" He said "Oh, are you going out again?" and I said "I don't know...I just want to be sure I am awake!" He said (now get this!!!!) " I don't know why I call...You are never home!!!" <P>Well, that's it....I could use any insights <P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR> <BR>

Sheba,<BR>Although my husband talked of divorce, moving out and many other things.<P>There were a couple things that really waged battles in his mind. The consequences of divorce; the impact to the kids and his family would hate him. I think it also helped to "open" up our problem a bit. When it was exposed and he had to speak about his feelings, telling others why he didn't want to give the marriage a chance....he had a really difficult time convincing others as well as believing in himself. <P>I also think I simply wore him out...I didn't want to do Plan B either but after so many months....I definitely was on the verge. <P>Lastly, we began having lots of discussions about despair and depression. The feelings that all in your life is bad that you know the right thing to do but don't want to do it. Discussions of how much he hated how I'd treated him......) We didn't talk about us but about how awful he felt and how guilty he felt (even so it was deserved)...that opened up the door to 1 conversation with Harley , 1 Very Good conversation with his Mom and Uncle and finally, a reader, who surprised him with details that only he would have been aware of. <P>Wish I could help more !<BR>-Tina<P>

Sheba,<P>That is one wierd post! LOL!<P>When is the divorce scheduled?? I don't know - there seems to be some unfinished business with him. When he comes over on Saturday, see if you guys could go to the movie or something after. Maybe make a special lunch - one of his absolute favorites. <P>He doesn't call 'cause you are never home...sounds like sour grapes to me. Invite him to call you every Tuesday and then you will plan to be home then!!!!!HAHAHAHAHA!!!!<P>We are all going nuts!!! <P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

OK...I'll stash the first half of your implore into my brain and mull it over for while.<P>But here is what might work for Saturday. Sheba you need to put on your listening ears and bite your tonge a bit.<P>Your H was trying to talk. Now we both know he didn't know what he was talking about, but by correcting, challenging, whatever you want to call it, you may have missed vital information you could have worked with. Maybe start off with...maybe a was being a little bit too defensive the other day. How did my not working make you feel? Do you think that was reasonable? <P>Or deeper issues. How do you think we could have advoided this? What would you do differently given the chance? <P>Write down all the leading questions you can think of. Whatever he says try to get him to expand and don't defend yourself.<P>The goal of this mission is two-fold. To gather previously undisclosed infomation that may or may not make some sense. And to make him feel really heard and even a tiny weeny bit justified. (Don't worry, you will get a chance to let him have it later if you want)<P>Think of anything he says as a beach ball and your job is to gently volley it back to him for more information.<P>Then give yourself time to really think about what he has said. If there is anything that you can latch on to and run with, great. Or you may gain a better understanding. Or you may think he is insane. Maybe he'll say something he hasn't thought of yet, or maybe when he actually says it he'll here how stupid it sounds.<P>Of course you want him relaxed first. Cook him breakfast or have his favorite donut...he's a cop, right...or do something to make him comfortable.<P>You may have some old picture albums around or any memontos that may tug at the old heart strings, unless meat forks and peelers bring back fond memories.<P>Try to share a nice time, but try to gently get some more info. It could be helpful.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13