Please let me start by saying I am new to this, so I apologise if I pre-empt or patronise or upset anybody.<P>I believe this forum oncentrates on infidelity within a marriage, but what about an engagement. An engagement that is not typical but nowadays is not uncommon. You see I met my fiancee on the internet, I am English, she is American.<P>I refuse to be cynical and say that these things rarely work, they can and I can promise you that we have given it a very good shot, but the pressures on our relationship are new ones, distance can lead to all sorts of mis-communication.<P>We met on the internet mid 1998 and our initial friendship was tested by external factors but no matter what we drew closer and closer. The very nature of the medium means that one communicates at a elevated mental state, attuned to emotional needs and wants. I guess we went through a standard progression of exchanging photographs, communicating by telephone and straight emails. I think it is possible, we were in love before we met.<P>Our first meeting in Dec 1998 confirmed the love, and the love was confirmed by a proposal given and accepted. It was such a romantic time, tingles up your spine time. We were wrapped up in love but we knew the future would be hard and drawn out before we could be together permanently.<P>For various reasons, the intention was that I give up everything over here and move to America. The USA government does not make this easy by any means, we knew that to go through the proper channels was gonna take the best part fo the forthcoming year. more than anything there was a lot of waiting to happen.<P>The time following the trip was a very difficult time. I was so in love with my fiancee, I couldn't bear to be apart, I wanted to breathe her every breath. She was then faced with the gammet of people saying to her 'isn't this all going too fast, what if he is taking you for a ride'. I had it too, but she received many more questions. This caused her to withdraw from me, I didn't know at the time why that was happening really. I had expectations of how an engaged couple should be, and they were not being met. i had an enormous love for her (the old cliches all apply here) which I wanted to give, and milk a return. The love imho was unconditional, I gave and gave but i suddenly could not understand why it wasn't being returned. Doubts creep in and questions start getting asked. We fell into a series of arguements and frank discussions.<P>It got to the point where I, at least was suffering, emotionally, physically, you name it. <P>I guess why i am seeking help here is that the next phase was infidelity. Can this happen during engagement, well I believe so. I didn't believe we had a future at the time, I told her this, but I didn't officially break the engagement or the relationship, it was a goodbye with out the for good.<P>I seriously was not looking for another relationship, I just needed to express all my hurt and pain. Another woman befriended me and this lead to infidelity. She was separated and going through a divorce and we were able to give support emotionally, that turned to physical. I would guess again that this is a classic cause-and-effect event.<P>My fiancee was told of me transgrssion by me, but I failed to tell her that it was continuing. She put all her efforts into turning our relationship around, she acknowledged her withdrawal and apologised profusely. She was of course in great pain that I had cheated on her. I at first felt that I hadn't cheated, I naively thought that as we didn't have a future, we didn't therefore have a relationship. I have come to accept that I was wrong, and I have felt great remorse and regret.<P>But I am not able to deal with her pain, I have excused myself from that because I truly feel that I can only deal with that when we are together in person. But there is more to it than that, there is more blocking my path ...guilt, maybe .... I don't know ...hence my plea to the forum.<P>The story is of course much longer and much more involved than I have described, but I have condensed as far as I can.<P>All I can say is that all in all last year was a terrible year, my Christmas and New Year were the worst ever. <P>I still love my fiancee dearly, like no other, I just don't know if we can get over this, or where to start in myself ..........<P>I would truly appreciate any and all responses .............

OK... I'll go to bat (or play cricket...)<P><B>dumbmale</B>,<P>I'm the normal welcome wagon guy (a yank) but my normal spiel doesn't fit in to your situation...<P>However... please accept my welcome anyway...<BR>Oh… btw… you'll never upset anybody here… <P>Marriage Builders really should be called <B>Relationship Builders</B>. Much of what is presented is in line with the idea that to build a relationship... you must have had something(a previous relationship) and some time in common from which to build.<P>From your, <B>extremely well written</B>, story I do sense that the foundations of a relationship did exist regardless that it was initiated on the Internet. Unfortunately, so did many of the obstacles to its development and maturation. The physical distance... and time apart makes the "real world" daily contact with a (future or present)spouse unrecognizable and false. If you don't see and breathe her daily faults, her daily problems, her "everyday"-ness and the same is true for her view of life with you. You are living in the equivalent of the fantasy world we so often describe in the wayward's worst traits.<P>We say that the wayward(betrayer) is an <B>addiction</B> when they are in the deep recessive of an affair. Where... yes... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> are being met and practiced... but to the exclusion of reality. Can you have reality while your living apart, if the eventual goal is to live together? You say that distance can lead to "miscommunications". There is so much more to the problem than simple miscommunications. It is the Internet's opportunity for the "elevated mental state" that puts on the blinders to a physical reality. I must mention at this point I am biased… my wife left me for an Internet affair as well.<P>It really looks to the parties of the affair (or in your case the Internet relationship) as such a beautiful life. I hate to use the word "soulmate" (it is the ultimate 4-letter word on this forum)... but that is the feeling you have. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with <B>that</B> feeling. We all crave it, desire it, and will do almost anything for it! At this forum we try to regain that feeling, what Dr. Steve Harley refers to as "romantic love", because all the other kinds of love (the deeper kind) gets pushed into the background of our relationships when a wayward rediscovers this romantic love through an affair.<P>I digress…<BR>Back to your concern…<BR>You feel pain that your fiancee is not willing to forgive you and your transgression. At this site we would recommend to go into a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>. What this means is that you have no <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> and try to meet whatever <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> you can. If all you have is the Internet through which to do this, it will be <B>most</B> challenging! The same difficulty in developing a maturing relationship earlier, because of distance, is now going to hinder you further. I'm not saying it is impossible to recover to your early state…but even if you do, is it enough of a "practical relationship" to build a day-in day-out <B>marriage</B>. This is a question to ask yourself.<P>Check out some of the books… in particular <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley (this is the 'bible' of the infidelity forum)<P>This forum more than anything else is a big support group. <B>We</B> care... because <B>we</B> know how it feels to have lost the deepest of all relationships… marriage!<P>Post... Reply... READ!<P>My point of view is not the only one…<BR>Read the other's as they reply as well. <P>Do keep coming back… I think many of us would be interested in how this works out… and more importantly… we care about you as a person… <P>Jim

Jim's said it all pretty much, but I wanted to stop in and welcome you.<P>Yes, you're right, infidelity CAN and DOES occur during an engagement, IMHO. A committment has already been made. Be sure to read all of Harley's principles. And, for all our sakes, don't let your guilt get in the way of doing what you know is right. Too many of our spouses are letting that awful emotion rule their lives.<P>You must deal with her pain, just as she does. And it will be hard b/c she's not close by. Do whatever you can, following the same rules all betrayers must follow to end her mistrust and ease her pain.<P>But, the biggest thing is time. You must realize that you may have to prove yourself again and again. And she (and you) will take time to heal. But it will fade, little by little.<P>Welcome. We do care about you, too.<P>Lori

Thank you Jim and Lori for your warm welcome, it is much appreciated.<P>One of the other things about long distance relationships is time zones. Its way past my bedtime here (3.30am)but I thought I would just post a quick thank you for your responses. I have read them, and will take your thoughts and mine to bed with me. I will reply tomorrow.<P>Allen

Jim / Lori,<BR>I was aware of the limitations of the internet and the 'virtual' effect on day to day life. I wanted daily contact with my fiancee, she saw this as unreasonable pressure, I guess this was at the same time when she was listening to other peoples views. It caused great rifts between us leading to the withdrawal and subsequent infidelity.<P>I also realise that the choice I made was a poor choice. I am guilty of all the self motivated outfalls from that affair, sitting on the fence, waiting for the best offer of a future.<P>The affair is over, but because of matters now outside my complete control, I have to have contact with the OW. I am working on all those 'practical' issues to remove all contact. This will take time.<P>I have read alot of Dr. Harveys pages on infidelity and whilst I understand the mechanics, maybe, of what has happened, I am not understanding why I made those choices and lived that lie.<P>Worse still, there is now a build up of resentment between my fiancee and me, compounded by the distance. I can't deal with her pain at a distance, and because of my guilt I cannot operate Plan A.<P>I have come to realise that I need to work on myself and my withdrawal, which is not just the extraction from the OW, but also the fight against my fiancees pain which I am unable to handle.<P>Because we have not, as yet, got common ground, a 'patch' or a home in which to work at this, it is being dealt with over the phone / emails, with disastrous consequences.<P>The level of trust on both sides is at the lowest point. I am and have been preparing for my move, selling up everything and giving up my job, and now the visa is expired. Maybe the relationship too.<P>I don't know where to turn, and there is no-one I can talk to at home.<P>I feel let-down, by myself mainly.

{{{{{{{{{{<B>Allen</B>}}}}}}}}}},<P>I feel for you...<P>Just a few thoughts on your last reply...<P>If "...she(your fiancee) saw this as unreasonable pressures on day to day life." referring to your "I wanted daily contact with (her)"... there could be a problem of maturity on her part too.<P>To keep the "romantic love" as Dr. Harley refers to it... and move into a "mature love" that grows out of a marriage... you can't give up on the newly developing relationship... It is like another form of betrayal.<P>I'm not suggesting that she is completely immature... but maybe she has adopted the idea that the Internet basis for the relationship was an immature route (right or wrong)!<P>Yes... You've made a wrong choice with the infidelity... some spouses(fiancees) will be able to forgive... some will not. In my "normal" (yank) welcome wagon... I do say... not all marriages can be saved... even if you follow Dr. Harley's principles 100%. Here are just a few quotes from his book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had done his/her best to save their marriage(relationship). (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#4.) If the (betrayed) spouse follows the plans (A & B), and they(the plans) fail, the (betrayed) spouse would no longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why you made the choice you made was because there was something missing... something of your <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>... And let's face it... how many of these needs can be met over long distances (especially the needs recognized as primarily "male" needs!) And then when the affair started the addictive nature of it had horrid consequences... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wayward spouses do not necessarily have a history of lying, but their affair turns them into masters of deception. (page 40 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...it is a by-product of... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>An affair is a very powerful addiction. (page 56 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you feel you've done all that you can...<BR>You got to stop awhile and think..<BR>You've said <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> is hard because of the long distance, much less your guilt... Then what chance does <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> have over a long distance?<P>Trust is something that comes over time...<BR>I don't know how much time you have...<BR>Time constraints are difficult for all of us...<BR>I, myself, am trying to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> as much as I can, while my W is pushing our divorce through the courts as quickly as she can! This too is like a long-distance <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... with a questionable outcome. My W moved out...(90+ minute drive one-way) from me and the children back in August to be with her OM. Having the children forces some amount of contact... always! But not the desired kind of contact... because it is hateful and hurtful... she is <B>always</B> angry at me... and I am the "betrayed".<P>You say "I don't know where to turn, and there is no-one I can talk to at home."...<BR><B>stay here awhile</B>... we write funny... our dialects and idioms show through... but we do care about everyone that comes through here... We have people here from Germany, South Africa, Australia, and Canada... This is an international site!<P>You also say "I feel let-down, by myself mainly." We all do when we make any mistake in life. We all dream of the <B>ideal</B> life... ideal marriage, ideal children, family, ideal babies, good work... And the greatest poison is when a not quite right "romatic love" (new... or old) kills those dreams.<P>Heal with us here...<BR>Think through your ideas of hope... regarding you finacee...<P>There is a <B>love</B> here in this big family(the MB forums) that I don't even see in my own family members... church... or anywhere else!<P> <P>If you stay here awhile... even just to "lurk"... you'll learn a lot about relationship building (whether it's to be with you fiancee... or someone new...) These skills will make any relationship better. I hope to hear more from you... <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 11, 2000).]

Jim<P>Thank you ....for your wise words and acceptance.<P>I have felt that everything I try to do is shot down by my fiancee, she has a (understandably) great problem believing what I say, or what I say I have done. She will say (without putting words in her mouth) that she has done everything possible to save the engagement, but even just yesterday, she underlined the fact that we are no longer ' engaged' , nor does she know whether she is still 'in-love'. She stated just before New Year, that she was moving to Plan B, though this did not last very long. I cannot see that dissolvement of all contact works in a long distance relationship, but that may be by the wayside, so to speak. It's her choice.<P>I do appreciate your help, and do not worry about the idioms and nuances, I am used to that. I will stick around.<P>Btw, I hope you do not mind me being presumptious, but I have been through what you are going through now. I was married, divorced some 15 years now. I had young children, and W left me and children for OM. Then she preceded to pummel me, whilst I was down, to achieve custody of the children. It's amazing how money works in these instances, she could afford a very good lawyer, I couldn't afford one at all.<P>I am only trying to empathise with you, and certainly not patronise. I wish I could say that things will be anything other than a living nightmare, but I'm sure you are all to well aware. If there is anything I can do in support, I would be only too pleased to do so. Even if it is an ear to bend, so to speak.<P>It may seem apparent more now, but I will mention it. My fiancee and myself are not youngsters (nor are we old :=) ), we knew the internet route is difficult, we were aware that for some time, male and female emotional needs would be strained. Six months has turned into a year and the strain is obviously apparent and increased ten-fold.<P>I hear what you say about maturity, I liken it, rightly or wrongly, to the fact that she has never been married, or had a long-term relationship.<P>I dare not to dream anymore, I feel even less. i do feel for you though.<P>Allen

One more thing to add......<P>I did feel some kind of betrayal, I loved her unconditionally, something I had never felt before.<P>The pain I felt with her actions was just as bad, if not worse than that i endured with my ex-wifes infidelity.<P>I could see the cause there, it was staring me in the face, in everyday life, I couldn't fathom out why my fiancee withdrew, moreso why she was so mean about it.

Allen,<P>If she really moved into a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... that would mean she still loved you... and was hoping for <B>you</B> to return and give up the OW... You've given up the OW... and do want to dedicate yourself to the relationship... so it must be that she is wanting "out" of the relationship... ? Maybe? Maybe not?<P>Thanks for your words of encouragement. The divorce battle is going to be bad. Fortunately... I feel I will be given custody of my children, since she just left us a little over 4 months ago. Money issues will difficult... but I am basically asking the courts to save the major assests for the children... savings for <B>their</B> education... because I know that she will simply squander everything she gets her hands on...<BR>I'm not looking forward to the process... review panels... trials... etc. but when someone wants a divorce... come hell or high water... they'll get it... <P>Allen...<BR>You sound like a good man...<BR>I man who has learned... and is continuing to learn about yourself and what it takes to make a healthy relationship.<BR>I think most at the MB forum are learning too! <P>Yes, waywards do feel pain too...<BR>especially when they want to reconcile and are not allowed to!<BR>Don't hide the pain inside... it'll hurt more. Check out...<A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html" TARGET=_blank>Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself</A>... other's have found it useful! <P>Don't give up on <B>your dreams</B>... man...<BR>You just be the <B>better</B> Allen...<BR>It's just those dreams may not be with your finacee...<BR>There can be better dreams to come!<P>Jim

Jim,<P>She has given me an opportunity to reconcile, but it isn't negotiable. Basically I am allowed to stay at her house as a house guest, with rules similar to a house guest but more stringent. I'm not sure what to do. <P>I have learned alot, I tried to learn so much about her as well, but that has never been easy. She can be a very difficult person. but then I guess I can too, when pushed.<P>My prayers are with you Jim, for your court battles and so forth. I know from experience that losing custody of ones children is the most devastating thing. I truly hope you have the outcome you are fighting for, it sounds on the face of it to me, that you stand a good chance.<P>Allen

Allen<P>It seems to me that you are dealing with a lot of your own pain and maybe this stops you being able to handle your fiancee's pain. All just too much pain for one person to handle.<P>I have read your fiancee's contribution to this forum as well and it seems (I could be wrong) that each of you individually have issues that you need to deal with on a personal level before you are ready to commit to each other or anyone else for that matter.<P>You are upset and confused and guilty about your infidelity and wonder how you could've done it. You are right to wonder as it points to something "missing" - either in yourself, in her or just in the relationship.<P>Yes, I do believe one can be unfaithful to the one you love, but it's not really easy to do when you are genuinely and deeply in love. It does point to a problem there.<P>You have been involved with OW. What has happened to her? Has she been hurt in any of this? How are you resolving that side of the triangle?<P>For all of us to move forward, to heal our relationships, we need to address all of the parts of the problem to make real progress.<P>What is really stopping you going over to the US and being with your fiancee? Taking a chance on love. Something is stopping you. <P>It sounds as if she has made it both easy and hard for you, in different ways. Some of her conditions should be expected under the circumstances.<P>Are you both being stubborn and if so why? This is not how two people in love, trying to build a relationship, work.<P>Are you absolutely sure you are being totally honest about all this (with yourself, that is)?<P>You mention factors with the OW stopping you right now. Are you trying your very hardest to speed up your extrication from this?<P>If you could make a wish right now, what would it be?<P>I can tell you are trying hard to do the right thing and deal with the situation you find yourself in. You sound like man who has many admirable qualities. I wish you well in your quest for the right answer.<P>A well wisher<P>

Allen,<P>Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner.<P>I too, just recently, read your fiancee's post.<P>In it, she doesn't have a clear understanding of your current situation with the OW... and obviously neither do I... Where do you think you are with it?....<P>If it is fully terminated... are those "stringent" conditions really <B>that</B> "stringent"? If you were trying to really reconcile... and take the recommendations of the the fourm to do a "pure" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... would that make the conditions mean anything else to you?...<P>There are a number of questions worth asking yourself...<P>Building (rebuilding) a marriage follows <B>four basic rules</B>...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Protection:</B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Care:</B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Time:</B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Honesty:</B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL><P>Can you say you've followed the rules of <B>care</B> and <B>honesty</B>? Or for that matter "time" and "protection"?<P>The only way she'll know this is you <B>showing her</B>... and not from a distance.<P>I appreciate the time I can write to you...<BR>I will also be responding to her post...<P>There is always hope...<BR>But it doesn't mean that it was meant to be.<P>The very best wishes...<BR>Let's all continue to grow... <P>Jim

Thank you Jim and Well Wisher for your responses. I have started a new topic which I would very much welcome your (and anybody elses)thoughts. We all are dealing with something happening in our own lives here and I appreciate that these necessarily take precedence. A response, whenever that may be, indicates that the person has taken the trouble and effort to effect an input back. It's the life and breathe of places such as this, and I will always be grateful for your wise and thought-provoking words.<P>I really and truly wish you the best in your issues at hand.<P>Allen