Sara--<P>I too work with lawyers, politicians, etc. My dad taught art and languages (English, French and German). I am drawn to more intellectual conversation, just like you. One might wonder how on earth I ended up married to an Italian New Yorker (I'm a Southern girl) with long hair, who plays drums and bartends at a strip club. Might it simply be...love? <P>I'm not a bit embarrassed by my H. He comes up to my workplace to take me out to lunch, sporting his ponytail, leather jacket and sunglasses. He shakes hands and exchanges pleasantries with my suit-bosses. I think my work people like him BECAUSE he's different, and it's obvious I'm crazy about him. I'm sure he caused a bit of a sensation initially; people love to gossip. But that's "old news" now, and his reception is warm. <P>Your H probably "fits in" better than you think--you may be overly sensitive because you're more aware of your H's behavior. If you'd like to see some improvement in his social skills, how about making it a game? Tell him you miss being a social butterfly with the upper-enders, would he mind humoring you with a bit more effort on occasion? You could say you KNOW he doesn't place much importance on things like that, which is perfectly FINE--you love him just the way he is...but just once in awhile, it's fun to polish up the etiquette skills. And beam when he does, because it sure sounds like if you ask, he'll provide. <P>By the way, a VERY special boss of mine once advised a co-worker--if you're at a juncture in your relationship where you're thinking about someone else, first ask yourself: do I want to trade in these KNOWN problems, for the UNKNOWN? Now that doesn't really apply in your situation to the extent it did my co-worker's...but just think...that learned co-worker of YOURS isn't perfect either. He just has different imperfections. Don't we all!

Me again. <P>F,T&L, I think overall he is happy just the way he is, although I think he would like to make some changes to fit more comfortably into the more social aspects. When we attend functions or are in other such situations, he typically looks to me for the lead. He has tried some different activities, but I believe he feels so far behind the mark that it is just too embarrassing to even try. <P>One thing about the social/business circles is that they can become very small. Friends and business associates merge into one. It becomes a very small world, and very difficult to cut yourself off from certain people. People I now deal with routinely on a business level are acquaintances and family friends and will be present at many social functions. My friend falls into this category. So even after I leave my job, there will be contact on occasion.<P>I am rather looking forward to leaving my job. That is where I feel the most uncomfortable. For those who have fallen into the path, or whose spouse has fallen, I’ve had a glimpse of that lure. My friend has not been overtly pressuring me, but he is very good at finding people’s weakness and using that as a means of subtle persuasion. And of course I’ve supplied him with all the necessary information. I can see that with some distance, but during our exchanges, I find myself saying things just to keep his attention. And he is so very attentive and supportive. When I’m around him I feel wonderful and brilliant. I am suddenly witty and creative and refreshing. And there are the divide-and-conquer comments. The direct criticisms like “if I had a woman like you …” to the veiled comments like “I didn’t know you were so talented with children. I sure hope your husband appreciates you.” I’m not stupid. I recognize the nuances behind that kind of statement. Lately, I have been turning the tables, responding with things like “no more than any other mother. I just hope you now have a little more appreciation for what your ex-wife deals with.” But he is sooo good at the repartee. I invariably end up feeling depressed and deprived. As though life is a parade and I’m just throwing the streamers. And dirty, because I should have defended my husband, or had a really snappy comeback to stop the conversation (although the rocking my world comment might work). I have started avoiding situations, but it is very difficult. He knows I am avoiding him, and thinks it is because I am “fighting my feelings”. Well, maybe, but I ticks me off to hear it. <P>Things are so much better when I’m at home and can bask in the positive thoughts. <P>I realize that technically perhaps I don't belong on this forum, but if I could post in for the next few weeks when I'm feeling weak and need to be told a few home truths, I would be very grateful.<P>Thanks to all. <P>Sarah

Sara Lee,<P>Your post reminds me some of my wife. Before my wife started her affair,<BR>she led me to believe that I wasn't good enough for her. She would make<BR>comments about our house not being big enough, that I wasn't social enough,<BR>that I was not a good dresser. She works at a hospitol and is surrounded by<BR>what I think are some over educated doctors, physcologist, etc. I sensed<BR>that my wife was looking for someone who could satisfy her "upper class"<BR>needs. Realizing that some of the things that interested her, were not<BR>important to me, I made the mistake of telling her to find someone that<BR>could satisfy these needs for her. Unfortunately she went out and tried to<BR>find someone that could. She met a phycologist at work. He had a pHd so he<BR>must have been very smart. He wore suits to work. She could talk to him<BR>about medicine. Before she knew it they were having sex together and she<BR>thought this was the man of her dreams. What she found out as the year<BR>wore on was that this guy had cheated on his previous wife, his current<BR>fiancee, and then cheated on my wife while they were in the mist of their<BR>affair. She found out that all this "intelligant" man did out side of work<BR>was watch sports on TV. She realized that I may not be charming, may not<BR>have wear suits, I don't have any higher education degrees, but I am there<BR>for her. I help raise our children, I supported her while she went to<BR>school, I provide her the best house I can, and I was willing to take her<BR>back even after what she did. <P>Your attitude about judging peoples inteligance or lack of it based on what<BR>job title they have demonstates to me a lack of knowledge on your part of<BR>what is really important in how one leads their life. It isn't how many<BR>degrees you have or who you know or how much money you make or how many<BR>trips you take in a year. What is important is what kind of a person you<BR>are. <P>The other thing I have come to realize is that all families have problems.<BR>I don't care how "successful or prominant" a family is, there are always<BR>problems. The only families I know that have not had problems are those<BR>that are to proud to admit them. Not being able to admit the problems also<BR>keeps the family from being able to learn from the mistakes that caused the<BR>problems and they continue.<P>Anyway sorry for ranting at you, but your attitude strikes a nerve in me. I<BR>hope you have enough "intelligance" to show your husband the respect he<BR>deserves. <BR>

Sarah,<P>Before this thread spirals any further, as a former betrayer let me make a suggestion:<P>Don't take anything too personal on this forum. Sort out good and bad critisicm. Take a look at the responses your postings generate, see what harm affairs do to people. Can't say I blame them for hating betrayers, hate myself sometimes. Oh, and you're probably asking yourself if you've done anything wrong yet. Sounds like you're building an emotional relationship with someone other than your spouse. That's wrong and potentially hurtful. Oh, and don't subscribe to that "Ally McBeal" philosophy- that partying and infedelities are a natural part of the workplace. I pray my kids don't grow up to a world like that. I'll get off my soapbox.<P><BR>take care,<P>- BBD<BR>

BD, have no fear of my subscribing to "mcbealism". My parents were married for over 40 years before Dad's death. Lots of arguments, more hugs and kisses, some hurtful words and loving appologies were exchanged during that time. To my knowledge neither was ever unfaithful. They have been my role models. <P>I want the same to be said by my children. <P>One more thing - I can handle criticisms. That's why I'm here: not for the pats on the back for what I haven't done, but for reinforcement not to go that route. If it helps someone vent, so be it. Much as I am using all of you for my benefit, if someone can lessen their own pain by lashing at me, then I too have served a purpose. After all, I know that any feelings I am going thru doesn't even compare to the pain most of you are dealing with. (off my own soapbox and all <g>!)<P>Sarah<p>[This message has been edited by SaraLee (edited January 11, 2000).]

How would the crowd you are used to fare at what your H is best at?<P>My H is clueless in many ways, yet there is no one I would rather want in a crisis than my H. His level headedness has already saved our lives.<P>My H is actually extremely smart..at what his does...which is technical. And we all want smart people at Nuke plants, right? And is great at all types of activites and fantastic at teaching people things. He is a wonderful father, although he is nothing like me except we share the same beliefs and values.<P>Although anyone that interacts with my H knows his clueless side which even he jokes about. No one hears me "talk down" about my H and would I would not allow anyone to insult him....even if I secretly agreed with what they said. <P>Do you think your H believes you respect him? If you are in any doubt, he may not be secure in your relationship and his needs may not be being met by you! I could be off base here.<P>Imagine if you moved far enough away to be clear to clear of the day to day social interactions of your crowd. Do you believe your family (H and child) would have a better chance of thriving if your H was not competing for you with these people? Give it some thought.<P>If you could get inside your H's head...what do you think he would say about your life together?<P>And I really hate to bring this guy up, and thank goodness you see him for what he is, but if he is so great, how is it that he has an ex-wife? <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Yeah!...what FHL said.

SaraLee,<BR>Teach him, love him. We are all works in progress. It seems like it would be much easier to teach someone the difference between a salad fork and a dinner fork than it is teach to them how to love. Your husband sounds like a very loving man. This other guy is just playing you, sweetie. If he cared about you, he wouldn't be dropping these little hints. Big, smart, intellectual guy looking for intellectual women to conquer. Happened to me too. I felt guilty about going back to school to get my PhD and OM homed right in on that. These guys are sleeze balls looking for some easy prey. Don't cave, cause after your marriage is in the trash (like mine is now) you will definately wonder what you ever saw in him (this potential OM). TimJ is right on target about how little degrees mean. <P>About the "interesting stories". Why don't you two go create your own interesting stories together? Have you thought about volunteering? That is free. Maybe you two can develop an interesting hobby? I always wonder about people who are always bragging about their "moneyed" life. Hey, if you put cake frosting on a turd, guess what? It is still a turd!<P>This is my favorite quote:<P>Success<BR> To laugh often and much<BR>to win the respect of intelligent people<BR>and affection of children; to earn the<BR>appreciation of honest critics and<BR>endure the betrayal of false friends;<BR>to appreciate beauty, to find the best<BR>in others; to leave the world a bit <BR>better, whether by a healty child, <BR>a garden patch or a redeemed <BR>social condition; to know even one<BR>life has breathed easier because you<BR>have lived. This is to have succeeded.<P>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<P>It sounds to me like your H is already successful in alot of ways. You two can figure out the rest together. Listen to K and what the others say here.

Wow, TS...I had not read that for years. It has been a favorite of mine as well.<P>Teaching skills and techniques are fine, teaching someone who seeks to change or grow is great. But teaching a person to BE something they are not and do not wish to be will not work. And it is not really teaching.<P>I think you usually get better results changing yourself or your expectations instead.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I'm halfway away from launching my first controversial stake in cyberspace. I'm thinking of calling it, "a tribute to those poor [censored] who think money and power lead to happiness". It'll be a portal for those to go who are tired of selfish, greedy, in-sensitive, ladder-climbing, aldulterating people in the workforce. I work with a guy who literally drives me insane with his "stock portfolio" and "3000 sq ft home" bragging. Just venting...in fun/humor..<P>- BBD<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Big Big Dummy (edited January 12, 2000).]

SaraLee, You are getting a lot of good advice. I hope you'll heed it.<P>You may be right about your h's smarts, but I think it's the sophistication that is the big issue.<P>I used to work as a CPA in the biggest firm in the world, believe me I knew not only CPAs , but lawyers, VPs of corporations, etc. You know what? It took me awhile, but I saw through them; I found the most shallow, insensitive group of people. And smart? Yes, in a very narrow range mostly related to their expertise. Where I was once biased towards them, now I find it hard to give them any credit. And doctors are the worst. Nothing but human body mechanics. Don't know diddly squat about health or prevention.<P>About ten years ago, we started with a group where we have had avid discussions on many topics: the great books of the western world - Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, Rousseau, Hegel. We've studied epistomology, comparative religions, Francis Schaeffer. And my h jumped right into it. Unfortunately he doesn't have as much time to keep up these days.<P>But I didn't say this to brag as much as to point out- in my mind this is real intellectual exercise, not the repartees and innuendos you're referring to. And something tells me your h is smart. The group leader's wife was formerly married to money, while they have very modest means.<P>If you want your marriage, you have to come to terms with these issues; and yes, if you're not going to be working with these people, maybe you don't need to play in their social circles

I am so surprised to find someone who has THE SAME PROBLEM AS I DO!! I am from a wealthy and intellectual family. My husband was very poor. I used to kind of feel 'embarrassed' at some of his actions and conversation, but, not now. I learned that my family accepted him because they knew he loved me, and they loved him for it. They love his company! He's funny to them, and, he has been willing to learn. I actually sat with my husband, many nights, and worked on his vocabulary and spelling! But he was humble enough to admit he needed some skills in this area. I also shared a lot of my knowledge in medicine, psychology, current events, etc. About life in general. He often tells me how much he has grown over the years and how much he has learned from me. It blows his mind. No, I would not call you arrogant at all, everyone has a different backgroud, different talents, etc. That's what makes the world interesting. I used to feel the same way you did when discussing this problem to friends. I thought I sounded high and mighty, but I wasn't. I was observing differences. And, I understand how hard this is. I used to think, if only I was married to a Dr., or lawyer, or whatever. But, I began to look at all of my husband's qualities in the emotional aspect, and I saw that those qualities were much more important for happiness. I even got involved with a Dr., (OM), and wow!!!! What a disappointment. He was smarter than anyone I had ever met in my life, but he was a real JERK when it came to love and devotion. He was nothing but a playboy. He had a lot of money, too, and that didn't do it for me. It couldn't buy happiness. He made me so miserable! Just remember, you don't have to be anything to anyone except the person you really are. And that goes for your husband too. Be proud of what he is, don't look at what he isn't.<BR>Love and Prayers

One more thing: I agree with Shizzo, those people can be so superficial. I also focused on what my husband was good at: mechanical engineering. I began to really listen to his knowledge in this area, and it really changed my view of him. He'a a very talented man. And I gained respect for him. He will never be a 'bookworm' or college educated person as I am, but I could never do the work that he does. I helped him feel good about himself, by taking an interest in what he knew. I complimented him. And his self-esteem grew. He needed that. PLEASE DONT have an affair. Oh, what I wouldn't give to turn back the hands of time.....

Hello. My name is Dale and I believe that I could possibly be in the same exact position as your husband. My marriage was one which seemed perfect to everyone around us and to me also. However, my wife was harboring needs which I did not fill (I didn't realize and she didn't tell me). No matter how much you think it might hurt your husband to tell him that he is not meeting your needs, it would be as nothing compared to finding out that you had an affair. My marriage is on the verge of being over, your marriage doesn't have to travel that path. Please talk to your husband and give him the chance to please you, I think that you would be surprised at how readily he would try.

Sara,<P>I just came upon this thread. You have heard from many of the best people on this forum. I really don't have anything really profound to tell you beyond what you have heard. But I would like to offer you an observation about intelligence and how people view it.<P>Without going into details, I am very good at mathematics. It is a major part of my profession. Let us assume that you are not. However, you no doubt took high school algebra. You learned how to solve equations and find the value of the unknown. I learned the same thing. I am willing to be you a very substantial sum of money that no one as ever asked you how long it took you to learn algebra I. If your knowledge of the subject is of interest to them they simply ask if you know how to do it.<P>What am I getting to here. People often confuse the speed with which people learn things with intellegence. Even our National tests SAT etc. are speed tests. But all that counts is whether you know it. You H may very well be as bright as the people you deal with. He just may not have the same interests. He can however learn to function comfortably at these social occasions if he has a real need to.<P>It seems to me that he does but doesn't know it. You have not told him of your feelings. Believe me he can learn what he needs to know. The hard part in teaching children or adults is getting them to realize that they need to know this subject. You can definetly convince your H to meet those needs.<P>Finally, as someone who came to these boards to learn before I made a big mistake just as you, I will tell you these people do know what they are talking about. Please realize that behind whatever vaneer people chose to cover themselves (money, culture, language, prestige, etc) they are still only humans. The good ones are worth keeping and the rest are not. It sounds like you are married to a good one. You need to do some work on your marriage and appreciate what you have. It would not hurt to let your H know that you do appreciate him.<P>If you talk honestly with him and let him know that you love and appreciate him, I'll bet he will do whatever it takes to fill you needs.<P>You have made a very smart move coming here. If you are as smart as you sound you will use the information given here very wisely. The result will be a marriage YOU can be proud of.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P>PS. You do remember the saying? "A dumb man doesn't learn from his mistakes, a smart man learns from his mistakes, and a wise man learns from other peoples mistakes." Consider what you have read here.

Been there. Do not have anything else to do with the OM. It will only lead to trouble. I know...<BR>Hang in there!<BR>Londonite