Sorry the reply is long over due. I had the good fortune of starting back to work this week. I am a teacher and the summer afforded far too much free time for my mental well being. Anyway, with the start of school came some craziness, but I’m here to reply now. BTW, I posted this reply on the two “hate” posts for those who may look there instead of here. <P>About my hate for OM: As the post “I’ll hate him if it kills me” shows, I’ve managed to tap into some pretty powerful emotions centered on the anger from my pain in loving OM. I recently read that the term “hate” is derived from the Greek term meaning “grief stemming from loss.” As grieving the loss of a loved one involves an anger stage, I feel pretty healthy in my anger (as long as it does not last forever). I know my anger is of a forced nature, but the bottom line is that I have reached a point where I need to retreat and protect my heart. Loving OM was killing me, so hating him is what I have to do. Thought I do still love him, and the hate is manufactured, the hate is easier for me to take right now. My hate is pretty intense, as many of you noted, but I’ll manage with it okay.<P>Sweetpea.<BR>Well, at first your reply made me very angry at YOU! But then I decided that it was pretty good “hate” material and I let it seep into my heart. I adopted your opinions for a day or two and the anger and fury those opinions brought on fueled my letter of hate to OM. Thanks for your reply because it really has helped me to be angry and hateful toward OM. The fact is that I believe I need to hate him. Don’t be sorry for being blunt – it was very helpful this time. If you didn’t read my letter of hate in the other post, please do. I hope you don’t mind seeing some familiar thoughts there.<P>Fighter,<BR>Your advice to see OM, as a real person with faults is good, except here is how I’ve always felt about that: I loved his faults because his faults made him real to me. And if he was real, then I wasn’t dreaming! Sick, ugh. I’m in this pretty deep. I still think I need a reason to hate him. Actually, I think I need some time (and that is so hard for me to deal with) to get out of love with OM and to try and go back to H with my heart. Time, ugh now I’m telling myself that I need time. It seems to pass so slowly in recovery.<P>Cuckold,<BR>You said, “How can you hate someone who finally rained on the dry parched ground of your marital desert?” Ironic word choice, Cuckold. I once wrote a letter to OM and in it I wrote, “into my dry and empty heart, a barren wasteland, you brought sweet rain.”<BR>You suggested not trying to “learn” to hate him. I wish I didn’t have to learn that, but I do. I have to choose to hate him, choose to love H, and choose to be away from OM and with H. NONE of those choices come easily or naturally for me. They are all acts of reason and will. I hope someday the feeling of love for H reenters my heart.<P>Tina,<BR>Choosing to be with H, at this time, is, as you urged, the last 100% effort. No, I’ve not come to the place where I can give 100% YET! The only way I will get there is by being here and working at it, little by little. H is far from giving 100% either. I am giving him the time to get there too. This is not to say I don’t grow frustrated, or feel pain and anger in the process of getting there, but I am here and trying. You wisely suggested that I try focusing on his needs and the baby’s needs, rather than mine. I focus A LOT on the baby’s needs. I am not really able to meet H’s needs very well at this time. In fact, part of what lead to the affair was years of meeting H’s needs and having my needs go unmet. My “need bank” was totally tapped – bone dry when I met OM. I just flat out gave up and stopped meeting H’s needs because I was tired of doing that. I know I need to try again now. My “giver” just isn’t here. As a matter of fact, my “taker” even finds it hard to be here. I am saying that I find it just as hard to take from H as I find it to give. I don’t really want his attention or affection because I don’t believe or trust it right now. This is going to take some time. I am trying to meet my H’s need for sex and conversation. Though I don’t enjoy either with him. Conversations with him are shallow and “small talk.” He does not want to talk about anything emotional. When I have sex with him, I am going through the motions. I allow him the “pleasure” he needs in sexual “release” but that is about all I can offer. He isn’t a very good lover so I don’t really care to have sex with him, but if it works for him, I can service him. I don’t have any desire to make love to him because I feel about as close to him as I do to a total stranger. I know that sounds terribly shallow, but it is his need, not mine. I need to make love. We don’t do that; we have sex. Always have, always will. I’ve tried making love to him; he is about as good a lover as a wet blanket. It is terribly unsatisfying to “make love” to a man who isn’t a passionate lover.<P>SHA,<BR>I appreciate your encouragement. You are a very different man than my H is. You have done wonderful things for your w. Most wonderful is your desire to really talk and heal with her. My H is so closed up; he is so protected, that I can’t get close to him. He hasn’t tried to do the things you have done. He does not want to just “give” as you do. He wants to be given to. That is how it has been for many years, and I have accepted that he will never change. Let me give you an example – kind of personal – but very to the point. Last week, H started making advances toward me (remember we had a moratorium on sex). I gave in because I never say no. However, he said he just wanted to please me and make me feel good. “Okay,” I said, “then please go and shave.” He did. Then I asked him to please perform oral sex. He does not like to do that and he isn’t good at it. I told him, in explicit detail, exactly how to do it (I’ve told him 1,000 times before). Finally he did it right (of course since then he is back to his old unsatisfying way of doing it). Anyway, I “reached the Promised Land” and then said, “H, that was great! If you really wanted to please me, and it wasn’t just for you, then I’d really appreciate it if you would just put your arms around me and we could go to sleep.” He did. I HAVE NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE! Of course there was no discussion of the moratorium, and the next night he was firm with expectations of getting his. He always gets his “O” and I usually don’t’ (enter the wash machine). He seems disappointed that I don’t enjoy it, but it sure as hell doesn’t stop him from getting his, and he easily gives up on me. He doesn’t ask how I feel about sex; he doesn’t listen when I tell him what I like. I stopped telling him how to touch and please me because I felt like I was giving directions and he wouldn’t listen. Gee, just like a man, he won’t take directions, let alone stop and ask for them, and god knows he won’t follow the freaking map! Sorry, I just vented there.<P>Rob, I guess I’m not really in touch with the concept of Satan. I suppose I also feel that God has hardened his heart to me and that I am in Satan’s possession. I feel like I am so far from God. I have taken a view of God as an evil, angry being who revels in giving me desires and in denying me what I want. Come on, if this god is so wonderful, why did he create people who want things they can’t have? Why did he create evil – or a devil? If he didn’t create these things, then who did? I thought he had control over everything? If he is up there, if he has “control” why does he let evil things happen to good people? Why, when I call to him does he refuse to listen? Where the hell is he? If God is so “loving” then where was he all of those months that I, on my face, shouted out for him to please help me and to guide me? Where is he in the midst of all of the others on this board who are crying out to him for comfort and he denies it? Why would a good god make people who have the natural propensity toward evil? Why doesn’t he just squelch out evil? Of course I know you don’t have all of the answers to these questions, but they are the questions that haunt me when I think of surrendering to this “God.”<P>Faith, hope, love,<BR>You advised, “God can take your anger, just don't turn your back on the One who can help you.” I suppose I could use a heap of prayers here. As you can see from the paragraph prior, my faith is all but gone. I am really moving to an emotional place where I don’t want anything to do with God. Prayers appreciated.<P>Tamis,<BR>I’ve become a bit anti anti-depression. I went on Zoloft for a while. At first it made me feel giddy. Then it annihilated my sex drive. Then I went on Valium. It made me a Zombie, it affected my son (still breast-feeding) and it also killed the sex drive. Also, on the Zoloft, I was so happy and friendly to everyone that I sent out some bad messages to my students (adult male Marines). Being friendly and happy (giddy from meds), made me appear flirty and that was not good. Marines, who rarely see a woman, get turned on if you smile, even if it isn’t at them. Anyway, for those and other reasons, I am not on anti- depression meds. I do know that I am depressed and I am hoping that time and therapy will help.<P>Shoni,<BR>I am starting to think that it is impossible for H to meet my needs. I think that I have very big needs and his ability to meet them is very weak. It is a double whammy. I wonder what one does when they know their spouse cannot meet their needs? Settle? Leave? I fear my tendency is to do both at the same time. Settle, and keep my “life” here, but leave with my heart (and in the case of OM, my body as well). I wonder if I am sick. You know, emotionally sick in some way. Does your H meet your needs? <P>Janice,<BR>I feel just like you do! What’s an ICQ?<P>Maya,<BR>I appreciate your posts, they always make me think because I know you have “been there.” I think I need to read your profile again because I seem to have forgotten the details of your story. You have been around for me since the very first post and I deeply appreciate that. When did it start to ease up for you? Do you love your H again? Do you love him as much as you loved OM?<P>K,<BR>Do you get a kickback from Harley? Does he give you one free session for each new client you send him? =) I don’t really think I want to call Steve. I didn’t like the phone call we had on the radio show and I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of phone sessions. Also, H refuses to talk to a counselor. Also, Dr. H has very strong feelings about affairs involving children and I don’t agree with him on the issue of keeping the biological father out of the child’s life. I absolutely do not agree with that.<P>BB,<BR>You have clearly articulated my fears about my feelings for OM. But, I don’t know what else do but hate him. I am having a difficult time focusing on the positives in my marriage because they just aren’t enough to make me happy. Part of the problem in my marriage is my love for OM. I am preoccupied with that love and so I am trying to either forget or hate OM. I feel I have to be deliberate in forcing him out of my heart. If I don’t do that I’ll love him forever and then I’ll never be able to be settled with H again. This is really difficult!<P>Sad4now,<BR>What is an ICQ and how can I contact someone that way?<BR>

Facing Choices,<P>My H is learning to meet my needs, but it has not been easy for him. I, like you, was the only one doing the giving for years. When I got tired of doing all the giving and quit, he had an affair. He is trying harder now, and it's taken me quite a while to stop the threats of leaving if he doesn't do a better job of meeting my needs.<P>Your description of sex sounds all too familiar. (Although I believe my H can actually make love.) But he does not understand my body, how to give me the same pleasure he gets, regardless of the great amount of time I spend trying to explain things to him. We actually had the same discussion just last night. He says he doesn't know what I want and that frustrates me because I've told him 10,000 times. I'm really at a loss to make him understand and I start to feel self-absorbed when I am always complaining about sex. I know he tries and he says he wants me to enjoy it as much as he does. BUT...I get quite a big resentment when he gets what he wants and just uses the old excuse he doesn't know what I want so lets leave it at that. That was where one of our BIG problems came from that lead up to the affair. I did not enjoy sex, so I quit having it. He was angry because we never had sex, so he had the affair. Vicious cycle. A comment he made not long ago was I told him I don't like to hurry up and have sex because then I don't enjoy it. He said yea, but if we don't hurry up, we never have sex. I said I still don't have sex when you think we need to hurry.<P>It's too bad your H is open to counseling. I know, for whatever stupid reason, my H has an easier time understanding what things need to change when someone other than me is telling him. How about books?<P>The God thing. Hard questions, with no answers. Heard the Garth song "Unanswered Prayers"? I can not give you quotes from the Bible, but I PERSONALY believe that God does not like the pain and suffering that goes on in this world, but we are all given choices. Some unwillingly that are handed down from future generations. (I know there's a passage somewhere that talks about men will be punished to the 4 and 5 generations) All confusing questions, but don't give up on God. He hasn't given up on you. Come on FC, wasn't it you who gave your reason that OM would be better because he is Christian. Don't turn your back on God. Don't allow Satan to kill yet another soul. We are all dealt pain in our lives, I believe I've had my fair share and more, but that doesn't mean that God quits caring about me. And he hasn't quit caring about you either!<P>Geez, my post is going to be as long as yours! LOL Take care of yourself and try to put a smile on your face, if only for a minute or two. Here's something that may make you smile: Go read Viki's signature on Piolet's Wife's Survey for all.<P>Have a good day.<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Shoni (edited August 26, 1999).]

FC, It just may be that you have as real a love for the OM as love can get. We'll leave that for the phlosiphers.<BR>I love my W more than I have or will ever love anyone ever. The strength of that love is as stong as it has ever been. <BR>The question I had to deal with her departure from my life was: "just because you love somebdy, does that mean you should be with them?<BR>I had to take into consideration the great amount of pain I was and still am feeling because of all of this, the career advancements I gave up because of her and all else of me that I sacrificed because of our relationship. <BR>My answer was: no.<BR>I was willing to go it alone. I have obligations to the kids that would then take precident over all else. <BR>What I am trying to say is that the love you have for the OM does not mean you should be with him. No one knows how that would turn out, but you can be pretty sure that it would not be as great as you both think it would be. There are many kinds of love and chances are you will not get the same kind from your H as you got from the OM. But you do have a baby and that is a special kind of love. Actually, you should try to savour that now while it is there. These kids grow up too fast and turn int smart-mouthed teenagers.<BR>I hope I helped and wish you and yours the best for now and the future.

Just a few things, fc:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I once wrote a letter to OM and in it<BR> I wrote, “into my dry and empty heart, a barren wasteland, you brought sweet rain.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oy. I wrote in my fiction about what's predominantly an emotional affair, "She felt as if every pore in her body had opened up to him, like a parched geranium in a summer rainstorm reaching out to catch every precious drop of water."<P>So, uh, I guess I got that right on the mark, eh?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Gee, just like a man, he won’t take directions, let alone stop and ask for them, and god knows he won’t follow the freaking map! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LOL! You still have your sense of humor. Don't lose that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder what one does when they know their spouse cannot meet their needs? Settle?<BR> Leave? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I ask myself that same question. I have a feeling my answer is going to be "Settle, and try to fill my own love bank from within myself."<P>I'm lucky that no one is showing interest in me right now, that's all I can say. H gives me what he can, but it's like driving with 1/8 tank of gas all the time, and if there's no gas station soon, I'll be stranded by the side of the road.<P>As far as God is concerned: Others will disagree with me, but I don't think God micromanages people's lives. He gave us free will and what we do with it is for us to decide.<P>Stay strong, fc.<P>

FC,<BR> I started to delete that post after I submitted it, but then I thought, "No, she needs to consider that he may be happily going about his business." There are a lot of guys like that out there, you know! The ol' love 'em and leave 'em variety. Anyway, I'm glad that you understand that I was only trying to help you, and I'm sorry that my response caused you pain.