I've read alot here and can't find much on this issue. Want desperately to be romantically in love again but there is a HUGE problem. One of the things that has always got it the way is his way of openly lusting at other (full breasted), attractive women, commenting to his buddies (when he thinks I can't hear) about other (full breasted) attractive women and has often gone to strip joints and watched tv porn (when he thought I didn't know about it) despite knowing how I felt. In the beginning, none of this bothered me - literally. I also felt better about myself before kids (I'll spare you the details but...your body does change and not for the better aesthetically). Anyways despite his telling me (lately) that I am beautiful just the way I am, etc, I know that he has a preference for full-chested-never-bore-children bodies in women (again, I'll spare details but I do not fall into either category). He did once several years ago tell me that my chest "could be bigger". How do I address this? Is there any way that I can help him to change his way of thinking and understand society's contribution to creating his belief in what is desirable in a woman? How can I ever feel comfortable being with him sexually when all I can think about is what I don't have and what he does want? Has anybody else ever had issues with this? I guess what I am saying is that I understand Harley's reasoning behind the EN of attractive spouse, but what about the limitations that exist with this is one element of his STRONGEST need that I CANNOT meet (there is a difference between being willing and being incapable).

i think it would be good to hear from men on this---<BR>but as a woman, i can say that i don't think the "need" you think your husband has is an emotional need. i think it is a "fantasy" or something that he has fed through pornography. <BR> we need to be aware of how we look and do the best with what we have. there are surely things about him that you do not "prefer" (in the brains dept. for example), and what do you do? you accept them. that's what committment and maturity are all about. and while it may not always be fantasy island, it is what brings lasting satisfaction. that's what i'm counting on.<BR>it is a tragedy that he has hurt you so much, and i think that if you have any self esteem left, it is a miracle. <BR> this site is not a cure, but it does have some really good ideas, and some wonderful people who are going through hell.<P> (by the way, i've got to say it: big ones are overrated for 'real life', after nursing twins and a third, the effects of gravity are truly devastating....just in case you are ever tempted to envy.)

you know what? as soon as i posted it occured to me that there are probably qualities missing in us that our spouses would like.<BR> the ow (other woman)in my case was "dumb as a red brick" (in my husband's words) which made him feel really smart. he liked that. sorry, i can never meet that emotional need. she was also kind of helpless/out of control/directionless which fed his need to feel superior. i consider both of these "needs" to be, i can't think of a word, you know, wrong/bad/weak. for my husband to ever be "grown up" or "whole" he needs to "fix" these needs. being aware of them, gives me a responsibility to try to meet them in "legitimate" ways, i.e. ask him for help in his area of expertise instead of looking it up myself----but i cannot somehow force myself to be these things to feed his ego. i am probably not making much sense, but your question made me think------<BR>i don't know if you are a christian, but i am, and i am going to pray specifically about these things. i am trusting that God is refining me and filling me and growing me into the best possible me i can be, He is conforming me to His image. He loves me. i try hard to accept myself, and respect myself according to THESE standards, not my husband's or my own, or anyone elses. <BR> <BR> ok, now i am really babbling, but i can't stop. my dad had roaming eyes, and we all knew he liked "big ones". my poor mother struggled with this their whole marriage (23 yrs.), and was only after she remarried a man who treasured her the way she was--did she learn to accept her own body. the funny part is that my dad remarried a woman who was even smaller than my mom!!! i pray that you will not suffer the same fate, and will figure out a way to accept yourself as beautiful just the way YOU are. i think it takes faith in the God who made you. Psalm 139 says we are "wonderfully made".<P>ok, i'll shut up now.

Just one question, are you doing the best with what you have???<P>After 3 pregnancies, I thought I would never get in my tight jeans again, but I did it! I did it the old fashioned way: diet and exercise, working out. I lift 75 lbs on a bench press (started as weak as anyone). Doesn't really grow the breasts, but working on the flat, incline and decline bench has toned the muscles that support the breasts.

Lisa<BR>neen gave you a good answer. We need to do the best with what we have.<BR>Here's my take on this one.<BR>IMHO it isn't the size or shape so much as the attitude. I think you need to like yourself. We can't be sexy unless we feel sexy. It took me a long time to learn that.<BR>This is something you can do for yourself. Like you the way you are. Go look in the mirror and tell yourself how beautiful you are inside and out. It's true you know.<BR>Before I had children I was a lot bigger. I hated it. I was ashamed. I walked around with my shoulders slouched, trying to hide it. After my second son was born I miraculously went down two sizes. Now I have very little left and I love it. I certainly feel better about myself. That's what counts.<BR>as with so many things it is in the perception.<BR>Sure my H was disappointed. He even made a comment one that I had gotten awfully small.<BR>I told him that if he had to wear them he wouldn't be so fond of big ones.<BR>Okay I'm a little blunt. But it was the truth and I am certainly more comfortable with myself now. And I feel sexier because I like the way I look and feel now.<BR>When my teenage sons or H go all googly over some big breasted picture I ask them if they think those are real. <BR>If they are real then gravity wil catch up with them and it won't be pretty. If they are fake, then these guys may as well go get an inflatable doll or a bag of silicone. <BR>Lisa, work on liking you okay? That's what is really important. YOU!<BR>

No argument here with what "neen" said.<P>I'm not convinced that we have to bend over backwards (so to speak) to meet a "need" that's a function of immaturity or neurosis.<P>My theory is that men who are that breast-obsessed are mother-fixated.<P>Also, I suspect that men who have to point out women's physical attributes that relentlessly are insecure in their own masculinity, and indeed, may even be closet queens. At the very least, it's pretty immature.<P>I've always wondered why porn, strip clubs, lap dances, and such are called "adult" entertainment, when an obsessive interest in them really demonstrates an adolescent, rather than an adult, sense of sexuality.<P>Lisa, I have no answers for you. If your husband is that steeped in fantasyland, I'm not sure there's a whole lot you can do. What I DON'T think you should do is invest in a lot of plastic surgery in a vain attempt to live up to a magazine photo.<P>We all get old; we can't look 18 forever. <P>I've posted ad nauseum about this "attractive spouse" thing, and I think that if a man needs a Barbie doll, he ought to just grow the f*** up. I'm not saying we as women should let ourselves go, but there are many ways to be attractive. <P>Sounds like your H needs a good stiff dose of reality.<P>And BTW, how about what a lovebuster it is to YOU that he's so disrespectful about this?<P>

Neen, I liked your posts. I think others can address this issue with greater knowledge, I was just wondering something.<P>Why did he choose you as his wife? Do you think he has the mentality of a wife should be a "nice girl" and women other than wives should be playthings?<P>You won't be able to educate him if he does not want to change, but you can help him explore the issue.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

dazed: <BR>YES!!!! i never thought of that with the "adult" thing, i will be sure and mention that to my girls when the day comes and they ask me what an "adult" bookstore is.<P>and yes, the mother fixated thing is a viable theory---my dad was born in italy and fed by a wet nurse along with his mother --maybe that has something to do with it!!!<P>anyway--dazed, i just wanted to say, that i appreciated the way you expressed youself.

Thanks guys! Truly appreciate all your comments. Still confused though - we are trying to work things out but I KNOW how important these "things" are to him and are part of the EM of attractiveness. How to get him to overcome this so that I can feel more like I meet his needs and not like there will always be "something missing". I did not mean to imply that I desire more than I have - yes, age and gravity and back problems abound and I can think of 4,908,345 things that I would rather do with my money than get new boobs (I will list them in a later post). Is there hope that this "type of a person" - there is much more to the story than this can change their thought process - how do you educate such a man (for want of a better word ) Also, to clarify, he does not point out or discuss these preferences but it is in his actions which speak louder than words and his comment of several years back that have me feeling like this.<BR>cheers! (maybe I should change my username to "not-a-barbie.....!"<BR>

Oh ya - forgot......<BR>Mother fixated? Please explain (and forgive my ignorance).<BR>Dazed, where are your "attractive spouse" posts?

LisaM<BR>Have you asked him about this?<P>OK...I'm not being naive...I'm sure he likes big breasts. Could some of his open lusting, however, be a function of trying to be one of the guys or trying to be what he thinks a guy does?<P>I mean, maybe he is just being a real boob head, if you catch my drift.<P>Maybe for all of his bravado, your actual breast size has nothing to do with how attracted he is to you or how you fill his need (if he has one) for an attractive spouse.<P>In fact, maybe if you suddenly "blossomed" he wouldn't even be comfortable with it. Maybe he doesn't want other men looking at his wife "that way".<P>I think this is an adolecent thing and of course loved all Dazed had to say, but maybe it is as simple as he was somehow conditioned to behave this way. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Ahhh, there's nothing better than discussing the "attractive spouse" need that'll bring out some good old fashioned man-bashing.<P>LisaM: You <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Want desperately to be romantically in love again<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does that mean that you're not in love with your husband right now, vice versa, or both??? I'll assume that you both have issues with the marriage, and that you'd like it better.<P>There are several issues here. First off, you haven't actually determined that "attractive spouse (with enormous breasts)" is an EN for your husband, have you??? You're just inferring that by his actions, correct???<P>You and he should do both the emotional needs questionnaires and the lovebusters questionnaire (probably in the opposite order). If he lists "attractive spouse" as a need, and you're not filling that need (which is unclear---he currently says that you're beautiful the way you are), the two of you should sit down and discuss ways that you can meet that need. If huge breasts are something he "wants", he should feel free to bring up suggestions like implants. You can counter with "push-up bras" (or any other suggestion).<P>The important pieces of this are Complete Honesty and using the Policy of Joint Agreement to negotiate a "win-win" situation that both parties agree to enthusiastically. When you do this---you build love (romantic). He'll think that you love him so much that you're willing to discuss this issue and actually think about it. And you may find that you're overblowing the importance of this to him, and that you've just caught him in "sophomoric" (sophomoronic---D&C ) pursuits.<P>Deal with it in a way that builds love, through honest (loving) discussion, and the respectful application of the Policy of Joint Agreement. My guess is that you'll be able to do this successfully, if you apply these two principles.<P>On another issue, your husband is clearly hurting you with his thoughtless behavior (leering at women, going to strip joints, porn, comments to his buddies). These are lovebusters, and you need to discuss these with him. If he wants you to love him more, he'll learn to control these behaviors. <P>If you combine these two efforts---his dealing with these "boob" lovebusters, and you working on his emotional needs for either an attractive spouse or sexual fulfillment---you could probably have a whole lot of fun and build romantic love very quickly. That's where I'd put the effort.

Lisa, your best bet to see my posts is to do a search on my user name. Many of them are in the Emotional Needs and Other Topics forums, and they're pretty old, because I get tired of being blasted by men who think that a woman owes it to her husband to go to the gym all the time if that's what she has to do in order to stay slim, fit, and looking like an 18-year-old.<P>I'm lucky in that my H would rather have me AT HOME than spending every evening in a gym running on a treadmill like a freakin' hamster.

I can completely relate with what you are feeling. My H has had his share of strip club visits, and the last few times he went was on out of town buisness trips. It has been 4 months since the last time he went(I hope). I lost weight because of stress and feeling like I just couldnt measure up anymore(I too have had 3 kids).<P>After the weight loss, we were having sex and my husband went to touch my breasts and pulled his hands away as if in distaste. I asked him why, and he said, "their too small, and they have lost volume". Needless to say I felt degraded and ugly. <P>I debated on getting implants, but I know my problems would still be there with firm boobs, or not-so-firm boobs. The vengeful side of me wants to say to my H, "hey, I'll get breast implants, if you get a penis implant"..hehe Of course I didnt say that...I'm not that cruel.<P>Its really hard with societies "visions" of what a real woman should look like, and act like. I have come to the conclusion though that a sexy women is one who is confident, and can say, "yeah, I have had kids, and I know I may have some stretch marks, and my body has suffered, but, DAMN! Dont I look good today! <P>I had an incident that happened over the weekend that really made me feel great about myself! My H and I went to a club with some friends, and I was having a great hair day, my face was clear, I had on my Wonder Bra(definately fills out my shirts!), and I felt really pretty. My H and I were standing togather and this man walked by and gave me the ole' "up and down" look and my H started glaring at him. Needless to say the guy quickly walked away. I said to my H, "at least I wasnt sitting topless in his lap"...hehe. My H said, "ok, I get the point!" Then we were able to laugh about it.<P>I'm not saying "looks" are the biggest attribute, attitude is what makes the package. Its the "whole package" not just "tits". When I'm confident, I "glow" with sexuality. I have realized, "I'm not a big "tit", I'm a whole, sexy, vibrant woman. My H can take it, or leave it. So far, he hasnt been complaining!

Ok, I've been reading and "hearing" what you all have to say. I appreciate your comments...HOWEVER I need to respond to som...<BR>K: No man-bashing going on, this is issue bashing (isn't that why we are all here?). Yes, I am determining this EN in large part by actions but you are being unfair to suggest that it may not be so simply because it has not been verbally stated (or written on EN questionnaire). Actions sometimes speak louder than words. This is something that he knows I can do nothing about and he would see it as almost "cruel" to actually mention a "need" for large boobie-doobies, especially when we have had numerous discussions on the leering/lusting issue. I am member in good standing of the Dr. Harley fan club and as such am trying as best as possible to approach things in keeping with his philosophies and "preachings". While I appreciate your suggestions for negociation, I feel that you miss the point - I cannot negociate the fact that I have smaller breasts than he would his mate to have. I understand the entire love buster thing but again...I would find it VERRRRRRRY difficult to have someone suggest implants as a way to keep things together and meet them with enthusiastic negociable options. I already do wear pushup bras (padded ones, thank you very much). Fact is, bra is removed during intercourse (at least for us...) and - voila, no more padded-pushed-up-looks-good-under-a-tshirt but, LOOK AT ME NOW! (negociate this buster ) - buster being H, not you K!<BR>CARON: my heart goes out to you like you have no idea. I understand the hurt you go through with the "indescretions" your H has endured you to. The history from this end is quite on par and it's a yucky feeling! Someday I will share the total history that has caused me to feel as I do on this issue.<P>DAZED: How does one offer such a dose of reality when the reality is out there in tight t-shirts (or no t-shirts depending on the activity of the day). Yes, the last few years have been a series of love busters from him countered with a few of my own ("oh ya? I'll see your love buster and raise you 2..."). Finally trying to put an end to it once and for all but it is difficult with some of these "demons" that I believe will continue to exist unless addressed somehow - but again, HOW? I cannot outlaw the treat of the day in the daily Sun (newspaper) anymore than I can personally wipe out all strip clubs or women wearing revealing t's on hot summer days.<BR>Faith: whether bravado, a guy thing or conditioning, it sucks the big wahoo! How can I feel secure with what I have when with HIM (this has never, ever been an issue before in my lbj (life before james) nor was it in our early days - there have been a number of contributing factors - Caron has lived some of what I mean. <BR>Neen: you also said that it was only after your mom met someone who appreciated her for who/what she was that she accepted her body - this is what concerns me - that we will never get over this hurdle (or these 2 hurdles )<P>We have had many conversations on this issue in the past and I have let him know how I feel when.....in all instances he appologizes, says that it won't happen again, he understands how I feel....and then before you can say "boobie-begonia" we are back to square 1. In the past week, we find that we are discussing things more than ever and in a respectable manner. I am just concerned because I KNOW that no matter what (unless puberty hits me at 33), a part of his most significant EN will never be met in this relationship................... <BR>

Lisa:<P>"Actions speak louder than words"...<P>Maybe. But it's unclear to me that you've correctly interpreted his actions. And it's patently false that you "cannot do anything about" your breast size---you certainly can have implants. You CHOOSE not to, becuase you don't want to. But there's a difference there. And that's fine (and within keeping of the POJA)---but you should always learn to respectfully listen to advice or suggestions (from your spouse) even if you don't agree.<P>Lisa, I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but it looks like YOU have an issue with your husband's lovebusting. He probably doesn't have ANY (major) issue with your attractiveness. Instead of focusing this discussion on how "unfair" the need for large breasts are (which your husband has never stated), focus on what needs you can "improve on" (in order to build love), and help your husband eliminate his lovebusters in a more effective manner.<P>I think you'd be best off talking either to Steve Harley (through counseling) or his dad (radio show). <P>

Hey K - I take great offence to your comments. There is a line that must be drawn at some point in what is fair to negociate - weight, NATURAL appearance all seems fair game. What if your wife were to tell you that she would prefer a larger penis on you lad? Are you saying that making love would make you feel secure from here forwards? <BR>To suggest that I have not "correctly interpreted his actions" is a little silly. Maybe you are right, maybe he stares women in tight shirts in the chest at length and (despite knowing how I feel) goes to strip clubs because he is doing research for Wonder Bra on the side. If you had any idea of the extent to which he goes you may have commented differently. I never once stated that a need for large breasts is unfair - I simply want some help in dealing with this issue and the circumstances surrounding it. I am happy to take your suggestions on eliminating these lovebusters in a more effective manner or, learning to deal with this more effictively in general that is what I requested...............To put it more clearly, can a leopard change his spots? What if the leopard has resisted changing its spots numerous times? Does the likelihood of change diminish with each resistance? <P>To others: Comments please on the above - am I way off the mark here?

Don't even TRY arguing with K on this one, Lisa. I've tried and gotten nowhere.<P>Yes, his points are all very logical about things like plastic surgery and implants being OK if both parties agree to them. However, he's not a woman, and I happen to believe that there's something inherently coercive in a woman going under the knife for elective surgery to change the size or configuration of a body part. No, the husband may not be giving an order, but if breast size is that important to a man so that it is a primary need, outweighing all others, then he should marry someone with huge pneumatic hooters. End of story.<P>YOUR analogy is right on the mark; that this is right up there with penis size. They wouldn't want us asking them for penis enlargements, they shouldn't ask us for breast implants.<P>I wonder if this isn't so much a breast obsession with your H as a passive-aggressive thing. He knows it pushes your buttons when he does this, and so he does it to get a reaction from you. Is he insecure about you and wants to make you jealous? Or is he angry about something else and this is how it's coming out?<P>Something to think about...

This topic comes up in various ways. This has been a big (no pun intended) issue in our relationship. <P>My dad used to jokingly say that he couldn't tell if I was coming or going, because my shoulder blades stuck out as far as my breasts. I also had a terrible pooch after three babies.<P>After discovery and realizing this was a major problem for my H, we agreed (totally POJA) for me to have a Tummy Tuck (Abdominalplasty) and implants. I wanted to do this and haven't regretted it. Of course he loves it. I lost almost 6 inches in my waiste (was already very thin at the time, the problem was loose muscle and thick overstretched skin) and went up quite a bit in the bust. It is amazing what the doctor did to my stomach. It is flat and looks like a teenager's.<P>Sometimes it bothers me when he compliments me because he never did before the surgery, or the affair (I had the surgery withing 4 months of finding out about his affair), but he also didn't spend time with me or fulfill many other needs so I try to keep it in perspective.<P>Something he constantly tells me is that "confidence is attractive". Having the body I have now has definitely built up my confidence, but what he is meaning is that I could have been more beautiful to him before if I had felt better about myself and felt more beautiful. I always kept my hands folded over my stomach and wore tents instead of outfits. <P>Now I tuck my shirts in and wear jeans instead of knit pants. He buys me pretty little things in pink boxes from Victoria's Secret. It has been a wonderful experience for me.<P>I can't say where we would have been if I hadn't had the surgery, but I feel it says something that he is completely able to overlook the scars. The abdominalplasty scar is huge and ugly (hip bone to hip bone) and very noticeable. It is not one of the plastic surgery procedures where the doctors hide the scars. My doctor just had me wear my favorite style underwear so he could put the scar where it would be covered up.<P>Your H does need to realize that his action is a lovebuster to you, the comments and the porn and maybe him refraining from the "disrespectful judgements" will help you feel better.<P>Jess<P>P.S. I will say POJA sometimes as a joke when we are lightheartedly discussing somethign. It sounds funny when you say it as a word. My H jokingly says it stands for <BR>P***ed Off Jess Again. .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hey K - I take great offence to your comments.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No offense was intended. And I LOL'ed about the "Penis size", because I had that in my post at the end, but deleted it out before I submitted it.<P>Let's say that my wife told me that. There's no doubt that I'd be taken aback---but I've also learned the skills on how to deal with it. I'd ask her if it was size that mattered. How---during penetration, or did she just like the "look". Was there an issue with technique that could help? What about appropriate "enhancement" toys? How about elective surgery?<P>The idea is to RESPOND in a way that makes your spouse think that you're taking them seriously. In a way that builds love. Anything is "fair" to bring up, as long as it's HONEST.<P>I think the more appropriate issues center around your husband's ability to "change his spots"---in terms of him eliminating lovebusters and helping to create a loving environment in a marriage. And that's why I suggest that you start counseling with Steve Harley---I believe that you'll find him much more effective than trolling for solutions here.