I'm trying to get my husband to attend counseling with me. Right now he doesn't see the point of going himself when he has no problem with our relationship.<BR>He thinks he's doing all he can to make me happy. Maybe I'm being a little selfish, but I think counseling would be good for us. Even if it's just a problem with me it would be nice to have his support.

Holly! I don't think it's a problem with just you! Your hubby needs the councelling too! He needs to get some motivation somewhere, and maybe councelling will help!<P>--andy

new woman, Holly - It IS a great thread! I also wanted to address myself to NW's remark about counseling, because I haven't had a very good experience in this area myself. So I know it's very hard to find a good one. My W and I have been to two SETS of counselors for quite extended periods, neither one very satisfactory to my mind. Our first was actually another couple, and they focused on teaching us techniques of communicating when that wasn't really our problem! (Which has always been my W's affair driving a wedge into any real intimacy.) Our second started out as another couple, but the W dropped out, leaving us (me) with a guy who invariably sides with my W - meaning none of my real issues gets dealt with, just put back on me as being somehow the fault of something I'VE done. If I could sue HIM for malpractice, I certainly would!<P>Holly - I would be the last person in the world to judge you for what you've done. Once you decided to give up your affair and work on your marriage, it sounds as though you've done all the right things. It's your H's fault if he chooses not try and work with you to heal your marriage. If my W did what you did, I think I would fall all over myself to try and work with her to get our marriage back on track, including (especially) rekindling the flames of our passion!<P>--Wex

Lizabeth, I understand how you feel. Do you really think we can put a wall up - protecting ourselves - which stifles that feeling we miss so much?<P>If so, how do we get that wall down?

What I find very puzzling is that you chose to get married 3 years ago to this man who you knew was not a emotional type of guy and then chose to have an affair because you wanted passion. You then decided to give your marriage another chance and see whether you could get your husband to change from being just a friend into the passionate type of man that you had an affair with. Hope I got the story right. Now you are telling your H that he needs counselling so he can learn to become passionate and make you happy. He is right when he says the problem is you not him. You are the one who sees your H only as friend and not a hunk. You are the one who does not feel passion for him. You are the one who misses the OM. You are the one who betrayed your husband.You are the one who blames your husband for being who he is. Now you want him to attend counselling so (a)that he will forgive and you will feel less guilty (b)he can be enlightened to the fact that you need passionate love (c)so that he can undergo a transformation into a different husband that is passionate and one that will sweep you off your feet. There is nothing wrong with counselling except from your H's perspective you are asking him to change because of your affair and therefore you are not accepting him as the man you married.He accepts himself as who he is you don't. My point is that you need to<BR>look first at yourself and find out why you had the affair and what you want. You should not put a trip on your husband to make you happy. Happiness comes from within. The greatest happiness comes from doing things for other people. Devote yourself to making your husband happy. If you choose to be "in love with him" your actions will reinforce that feeling.Over time he will respond to you and reciprocate accordingly. Instead of striving for only passionate love which you sampled in a illicit affair strive for a love that is based on devotion,mutual respect, and sacrifice. The passion that burns in this kind of love lasts forever.

max--<BR>I'm not angry with my husband or blaming him for me having an affair...I would just like for him to show an effort in saving our marriage.<P>I understand why my husband is reluctant to couselling...I just feel that in order to work on a marriage that both people involved should be a part of it.<P>Yes, I admit I had an affair, I was the one who made the mistake. I'm now trying every option I have to rekindle something between my husband and I. <P>The affair is not what made me lose the spark for my husband in the first place it just made me realize that I could possibly have something more fullfiling in a marriage. Yes, part of that has to do with how much I put into the marriage...but it's a two way street.<P><BR>

Holly,<P>Yes, the affair was your choice and your problem. You created it and you chose to step outside of you marriage. BUT...<P>Marriage is a JOINT effort. Obviously things weren't great at home to start with or you wouldn't have went looking elsewhere. (still not an excuse, but I see where my faults were as the betrayed) You BOTH could benefit from counseling, You BOTH could benefit from meeting each others needs. Wanting H to meet your needs is not an irrational request. Yes, you had the affair, but it will take BOTH of you to rebuild the marriage. You deserve to have passion and you deserve to have your other needs met. Just because you had an affair doesn't condem you to being utterly miserable for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean you should never feel love and passion again (from within your marraige).<P>I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I guess it is more in referance to a few other posts you received. Just because you made a mistake, doesn't mean that YOU are the ONLY one who should be working at this marriage. I would be willing to bet that your H has probably made mistakes too, his were just different than yours.<P>I believe that passion can be restored. I see it happening in my marriage, but my H is very willing to learn. However, the first time I metioned counseling to him, I got the same kind of response you did. There's nothing wrong with our marraige, why should we go to counseling. But it has helped and so has reading. I hope you H is willing to look at some possibilities of how you marriage can be made better!<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR>

Max:<P>Are you saying that Holly can simply CHOOSE to feel passion for her husband, regardless of his actions? I agree that she should do all she can to make her husband happy. But of course, her husband should reciprocate, which apparently isn't happening.<P>Reading at this site for lo, these many months, has convinced of a couple things: We CANNOT choose to be "in love" (passive feeling). We CAN choose to "love" (active verb).<BR>

So Holly you may not feel like I've been much an an ally here for you from the way you read my previous post. But right now I cannot be more on your side here in response to posts like max's.<BR>You may have married your husband knowing he wasn't very 'passionate' but you obviously are a passionate person and he married you too. In short, he also knew what type of person he was marrying, and he agreed to reach out to your 'passion' and try to meet your needs too. You may have known he wasn't very 'passionate', but you both made a vow to reach out to come to fulfill each others needs. <BR>I also don't understand why people make a big deal of "You knew what he was like when..." First off people do change, second when most people marry they don't fully understand all the implications anothers personality will lead to. we're usually too young, too inexperienced, and too in love to care. Lastly, our society still does favor that a couple refrain from sex as prior to marriage. While this isn't really practice its still the goal most hold to. A person who is 'passionless; physically may only appear to be trying to be 'honorable' moral or respectful while dating. Likewise, some people (often girls) can be very emotional, and sexually active before marriage but they change afterwards because they really were feeling insecure and were dating by seduction. Marriage isn't a you knew what you were buying type of agreement. It's a hope for the future agreement. We promise not to always remain what we are but to become what each of us needs to become to help the other become the best person they can be.<BR>

Okay, since nobody is going to pull out the old Beatles record and play it for their husbands so they can understand what you are trying to say, here is the lyric to Lennon/McCartney's "For No One"<P>Your day breaks<BR>Your mind aches<BR>You find that all her words of kindness linger on when she no longer needs you<P>She wakes up<BR>She makes up<BR>She takes her time and doesn't feel she has to hurry, she no longer needs you<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>You want her<BR>You need her<BR>And yet you don't believe her when she says her love is dead, you think she needs you<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>You stay home<BR>She goes out<BR>She says that long ago she knew someone but now he's gone<BR>She doesn't need him<P>Your day breaks<BR>Your mind aches<BR>There will be times when all the things she said will fill your head, you won't forget her<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>(It's much more effective with music)<BR>

I had a minor breakthrough last night. I'm going to be visiting my old job on Friday and it just sunk in to my H that I will probably be running into the OM. He wasn't really pleased, but he said he trusted me.<P>Later that night he asked what it is he needs to do to work on our marriage and make me happy. We discussed some things and hopefully he will stick to them.

Max,<P>You're wrong. If the objective is for Holly and her H to rebuild their broken marriage, learn how to have effective communication, fulfill each other's needs, then Holly's H should want to attend counseling with her so that they both can make the necessary changes. Not just him. Holly needs to make some changes too, right Holly? <P>Most of us had no idea how important our own emotional needs were when we married. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know what mine were!! So, when I married, I didn't know whether my H could fulfill them or not. I married him because I loved him. Now that we both have learned what each others emotional needs are, guess what, we want to fulfill them for each other. Not only that, we will fulfill them, or die trying. No more of this, "I can't change....." hogwash!!<P>We do this because we want to fulfill each other, make each other happy and have a healthy marriage. Hopefully Holly's H will want these things too.<P>That's why he should attend counseling with her so that he can learn how to do just that.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Max,<P>I think you sorta have the story right. So, if Holly wants to find a way to bring passion into the marriage, and she wants husband to do his part, what is wrong with that?<P>Is it because she was the betrayer that you think she doesn't have a right to a fulfilling marriage any more? <P>Max, it isn't about justice, it is about creating a marriage that fulfills all of our needs, staying committed, forgiving the past and loving your spouse even when they aren't lovable.<P>And if anyone can tell me how to get that passion back, whether it is normal or not - I would so desparately appreciate it. I'm hearing so much on why it left, everybody's right to passion, why it is normal to not feel passion, etc. etc. - but what I want is a recipe for passion. ??? Please, anyone?<P> <P>

"The affair is not what made me lose the spark for my husband in the first place it just made me realize that I could possibly have something more fullfiling in a marriage".<P><BR>Holly this statement by you summarizes your problem. You are using the passion generated in an affair as the norm that you feel should be present in your marriage. It is as if you had taken heroin or cocaine and upon stopping these drugs wondered why you are no longer feeling high..<BR>Holly if you had not been married and had a normal relationship with this sleazeball you would not have experienced the same kind of passion that you experienced in your affair.The fact is that the makeup of an affair contributes to the passion.. Affairs muddle the mind and distort reality. Affairs are addictive because they are devoted only in giving pure pleasure one hundred percent of the time.. When these affairs turn into marriages most fall apart because the secrecy and intrigue that contributed to the passion or lust is no longer present. Reality becomes a lovebuster.<P>New Woman<P>“We went to couseling a couple of times...it just lead in to conversations about money, nothing really deep.I probably didn't try my hardest during those session...I didn't feel like breaking down,<BR>because at that point all I wanted was the OM. I'm 27 and my H is 34. I've been feeling<BR> this way for about a year...daydreaming about other men, etc.”<P>The about statement by Holly shows that her husband had participated in counselling but that it was unsuccessful due to Holly not being interested in working on her marriage. Holly comes across very confused who in my opinion should work on herself first and find out what she wants. Maybe then can she tell her husband what he can do to fulfill her needs instead of him trying to guess what she wants.Good ccommunication can only happen if both sides are committed in wanting to make the marriage work. Right now Holly is still wearing her “affair glasses” and sees her husband and marriage only in how it affects her. Maybe she needs to reach out to her husband to assure him that she needs him and is committed to her marriage. <P>TrustNTruth<P>I agree that a husband and wife should work toward fulfilling each other’s needs. Nobody would argue with that.. As for fulfilling the need for passion we should define what we mean by this term. Are we talking about lust. Are we talking about a physical craving for the other person. Are we talking about loss of control during sex ... Are we talking about sexual techniques. Are we talking about the number and intensity of orgasms.. Are we talking about an intense emotion that is similar to the high that is triggered by drugs such as heroin or cocaine. It would be interesting to do a survey to see how many marriages have passion. I think what most couples really want is intimacy... Intimacy is being affectionate, holding hands, giving compliments, buying flowers, giving hugs, giving encouragement, doing sexual techniques that will give the other partner pleasure, helping with housework, taking care of children, being honest, showing respect,etc. Intimacy can be viewed as foreplay before having good sex as well as giving the other person the feeling of being protected and being loved. Intimacy can be learned if the desire is there. Feelings of love will usually follow. The problem that I see is that the person who had an affair has been corrupted by the experience. They miss the intense feelings and excitement that the affair produced which makes them no different than the alcoholic or drug addict. That is why such a person will find it difficult to fit back into a normal marriage. Some of these individuals go from one relationship to another trying to recapture the high that they had in the affair.. Usually when these people beome older or have had many bad relationship experiences they become wiser and realize that the high or so called passion in an affair is not normal. At that point they begin to appreciate their spouses and marriages without feeling they are missing something.<P>If I came across a bit too harsh I apologize. I do hope that Holly and her husband reconcile and rebuild their marriaages. Best wishes......max <BR><p>[This message has been edited by max (edited September 01, 1999).]

Max--<BR>You're right I am confused...but I think I'm ready to really give my marriage a chance.<BR>You also gave me some hope about the passion thing...maybe it is intimacy I'm looking for. What I do know is that I'm looking for something more and I felt that I had that with the OM. Although, I can't say for sure whether it would have lasted or not...it never had a chance to run it's course.

tnt, Yes, I think we can put up a wall to protect ourselves that stifles our passion. How do we get past it? I like to think that we can get the passion back after we learn to truly trust again. I hope so!<P>Interesting discussion, guys!

this is a GREAT thread, thanks Holly for starting it. I really liked Max's last post, made a lot of sense.<BR>holly, what attracted you to your husband when you first met him, and what made you decide to marry him? It might be good for you to really think of those things that made you love him then.<BR>Ive read that opposites attract and humans quite often tend to marry people with opposite personalities to theirs (eg shy + outgoing or serious + fun loving)but after a few years the very things that attracted us to them, then seem really irrating and we want them to change to be more like us! However, if we remember back to why we married them in the first place, and remembered how much we loved their dependability or quiet ways or whatever, we can turn the negatives more into positives by more acceptance and understanding again. Well something like that anyways!! <BR>

So what's wrong with passion? Passion is what keeps the species going, ya know? I think most of us have a strong need for passion. And because we do, we allow ourselves to indulge in the biggest fantasy of them all, marriage.<P>Really. Aren't we reveling in fantasy when we say "I do! Forever and ever!"? Real life has probably not entered the picture. Yet we tell ourselves that this person, who has been trying hard to show only their best side, is THE ONE & ONLY.<P>Sound like a betrayer's rationale? You're right, it is. The mechanics are virtually identical--only the situation is different.<P>And in both, when real life creeps in, the fantasy, and the passion, collapse. But the strong need for passion remains.<P>So what to do? Seek passion through a new fantasy? Some do, but that fantasy is likely to crash also. Try to create a new passion with the same person, without the fantasy? Many try, a few succeed, and I am truly envious of them.<P>Most though, I suspect, resign themselves to those promises made in the throes of fantasy, though the fantasy is long dead, and the passion, a dim memory.

Max, it sounds to me like you are trying to say that the only time someone feels 'passion' is in an affair and that its dangerous because its artificial?<BR>I can't speak for Holly but I would guess that she did at one time experience some intense passion in here marriage from her husband. (Was that addictive like heroin?) If so, there's were the addiction would have started and something went wrong along the way that she and other similar people were no longer able to find that passion at home. Some one or something turned it off.<BR>I honestly think that we are more guided by puritan ideas from the past than the media hype of today. We seem to expect marriage to lose its passion but that doesn't make a lot of sense. A married couple has the chance of 'mastering' the touch points and special fantasy's of a partner. As a husband I know my wife's most secret arousal spots and some take years to find. The Kama Sutra and similar works were written for married couples. <BR>As for Holly's husband in counselling. Both Holly and her H. have to change. Even if Holly changes to what to congform to her H's image? Ultimately she'd hate that and she'd be looking for a way back to herself. Probanle another affair not because its addictive but that those needs would still be wanting and a past way of fulfilling them will be easier. I heard it said once that you can blame the first affair on the one who had it, but the second affair points blame to the spouse who failed to respond to the first.<BR>I wrote previously that Holly needs to 'repent' I think I clarified that. But in Judgement we won't discover or hear of our sins; we'll hear of how our actions/nonactions lead others into sin.

Geez, Doug, that's a very depressing post there. How about creating a new fantasy with the person you married? That's what I did, and it worked. That spark and passion can be found again with your spouse, believe me.