I having been thinking, dangerous I know.<BR>I would appreciate any input from a man's point of view and women who have similarly experienced this.<P>When a man feels the need to share his feelings does he want and need his partner to agree with him to feel supported, even when what he is feeling or thinking is wrong? I can very well understand the need for support<BR>when sharing feelings but should they be agreed with when they are not right? And how do you help them understand they are wrong?<P>

How about:<P>What the hell were you thinking, you moron!!!<P>But seriously, this can be a very tough issue. Depending on how your husband responds, I would try the POJA technique of "negotiating". In other words, your husband is "thinking" about something important, but you don't like (or understand) his conclusions, the best thing to do is to:<P>1. Get him to state it clearly, acting interested.<P>2. Repeat his stance, so you demonstrate that you're listening to him and understand.<P>3. Word your opinion in a way that doesn't make him feel defensive, such as "How do you feel about...[insert your opinion here]<P><BR>The other issue you have is with feelings. Feelings are never "wrong"---they're feelings. If you're not comfortable with those feelings that your husband is having (and perhaps he isn't as well), then you can discuss how to prevent or eliminate them.<P>This is pretty vague, dev2. Care to share any details?

I can't speak for all men...but personally...I don't want a mate to lie to me just to make me feel better. What good does that do? I want openness and honesty. But on the other hand, I don't want that openness and honesty shoved down my throat without any regard for my feelings. It's possible to be open and honest...and yet compassionate. The truth is very important...but it needs to be told with some tact.

I have to be in total agreement with Searhing here. Honesty is the best way ahead, add integrity and compassion to the equation and you will have a perfect mix, that would IMHO solve most situations.<P>But traditionally men have a much harder time expressing their feelings and are more apt to bottle them up 'till the cap blows (in my experience), so patience is needed as well, however with somebody willing to listen and understand what is being expressed (not always easy) most men can learn to express their feelings better, without fear of retributions or ridicule (which I guess is what most men, including myself fear most, when we open ourselves).

Hey... I'm a guy...<BR>I'll try this one...<P>It obviously depends on the nature of the individual man...<BR>but...<BR>"I feel..." (is that OK Bill?)<P>Men look for more than just emotional comfort or support... (i.e. a "yes man" or "yes women")<BR>They look at "sharing feelings"... like everything else... a chance to "fix something"...<BR>What they (maybe I) would like when they open up is more of a "<B>logical</B>" way to "<B>fix it</B>" whatever <B>it</B> is.<BR>While it's OK to stroke their ego...<BR>I think most men would rather just get a message of<BR>1. this is a logical step by step approached because logic dictates rules A, B, C.... etc.<BR><B>OR</B><BR>2. my friend did X, Y, Z in his situation had Q, R amd S as aggravating factors.... and it worked<BR><B>OR</B><BR>3. he did that because if worked for his uncle Frank... (and Frank is an "engineer")<P>I didn't read the whole book, but the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"... concept of how women interact with men and men with women... , I thought, was pretty accurate.<P>For men... I think it is OK for them to "figure out" something is <B>wrong</B>... if enough <B>logical</B> reasoning can be applied.<P>The big thing about this... is that in general... they(men) like to hear this "reasoning" more from other men... more so than from their wives or other women! That's where the ego thing really kicks in and show's the nature of men!<BR>OK... guys... you can bash in on me...<BR>OK... gals... a sigh of relief...<P>If the "sharing of feelings" are about purely "romantic ideals"... "fantasy world"... then much of the "fix it" mentality goes out the window... that's when each man is on his own and there... logic too can be thrown out the window.<P>That's my take on it anyway... <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 12, 2000).]

K,<P>I like the steps you outlined. I tried this, but it back fired on me. I know I am still learning and especially how a man feels and thinks about things but he can make this so difficult. More details, well, the subject at hand does not deal with his not being honest it deal with my daughter. He demands and wants to force good grades. He makes her feel less of a person when he discusses this issue with her and makes her feel stupid. Instead of encouranging her to do better he demands it and when she fails something he takes it that she isn't minding him. His parenting skills are greatly lacking in this area. And when she expressed her good news about being picked for a photo shoot with a established studio, he showed no emotion of excitment, his only response was, Oh. And then he went right back to nagging on the grades. He wanted to vent to me and I listened, but I guess I was wrong when I didn't agree with him to come down harder on her. Lord knows he has done that enough. It just keep driving her further away. I did say the grades are important and she should be encouraged to try harder, but that she needs her confidence boosted. He dosen't feel this has anything to do with grades. <BR>I didn't get angry, but I was hurt and tried to explain daughters side and feelings and how to approach this in a more loving way. But it backfired and I guess all he heard in his head was that he was not being a good father, etc. Said he would never share his feelings with me again.<P>Sorry so long, I'm trying to sum this up so you can understand. Now with this I am afraid to approach the honesty issue with him concerning his lying to me. What a mess.<P>Searching, Thanks for your reply. I'm reading as much as I can and praying too. I am trying to understand but seems like no matter how I put things I am wrong according to him.<P>Sad Man, Thank you also, with all you are going through right now I appreciate your response. I didn't or at least tried not to LB but H took it that way when I calmly explained things and I guess I didn't agree with him as much as he thought I should have.<BR>I guess all he could hear in what I was saying is that he is wrong and knows nothing. But I thought I was trying to help him understand how to deal with this in a more positive way. He didn't understand this and now feels I am D are against him. He always take this stance and now I guess he feels unappreciated which makes me have fear that he will feel why bother to work on this marriage. And find someone who will agree with him. But I do feel he is wrong in how he handles this with daughter. So do I just stand back and let him cause her to feel even more low and like she and her feelings don't count? This isn't right.

dev2:<P>Well, I understand the issue completely---that's a hot button for both my wife and I as well. And we switch roles at time on who's playing the "bad" parent, so we've had the opportunity to work on this from both sides.<P>One major point here (before I drop it) is to make sure that you're using lots of POSITIVE honesty with your husband. Positive reinforcement is more effective in the long run at retraining behaviors, but people often forget to use it.<P>Now, the issue is with your daughter's grades. They're not up to snuff. Can you agree on that?? If so, you should sit down and discuss a plan together (she shouldn't be there). Discuss the "negative" vs. "positive" reinforcement. If you're frustrated with her grades, let your husband know that. Discuss the fact that you're a team, that to effectively help your daughter you need to come to an agreement on a policy, and that you need to be consistent in the application of that policy.<P>My wife and I realize that we both lose our temper with our kids at times. We discussed the fact that it isn't effective in eliciting the behavior we're looking for. We also have an approach where one of us can give the other (parent) a "timeout", as opposed to the kid. That gives us the ability to step back, cool off, and deal with the kids.<P>And it's been working pretty well so far.

NRS,<P>I was posting when you replied, Thanks for your input on this. And I am reading the John Gray book on Mar and Venus Together Forever. Trying to better understand how he thinks and feels. But I am still learning as I said, and I guess I didn't approach this with much logic. Women are more emotional and men think more in logical terms. I came from too much of an emotional sense instead of thinking more Male. Mistake. And now this household is paying for it. He has closed off and retreated to his cave. Talk about egg shells to walk on. And when he feels this way he gets further and further into his porn. Don't think I should bring this up now on top of what has just happened. There would be such an explosion that not even the fire department could save it. I wrote him a letter last night and put out for him to read this morning. I tried my best to convey how I am trying to understand his feelings and how he could better understand how others especially females have feelings. He read it and threw it in the trash. Didn't even speak to me. So I guess so much for that. <P>He has said he wanted to be a better father and husband because he knew he hasn't been. All this said after he tells me of infidelity. I believed it but since then he has done little to improve. He keeps getting involved with his porn more and more. And after this he will probably sulk in his cave while fantasizing about other women. Getting further and further from working on this marriage. Who knows, he may even stop at the bar after work instead of coming home.

K,<P>Even though she barely got by with a B- GPA for this semester, I did express to him that I agreed she could do better since she did almost fail a couple of exams. And she was lucky to have gotten the B-average. I suggested a more positive approach and he did not agree. I tried to explain that all his negative behavior and execution of severe discipline has not worked to well in the past and perhaps he would see a better response if he showed more concern for her as an individual. He has always treated her with much less love and affection than his own daughter and it has been evident to everyone in this family even to my step daughter. She has even stated that he treats her differently and if she had to live with us she would leave as soon as she was 18 if he treated her this way. But she get loving attention and affection from him, even when she blows up at him, he still remains calm and trys to calm her down. Not that way with my daughter and she has a lot of resentment.<BR>H refuses to understand this and says that has nothing to do with her grades at all. <BR>See the problem? She isn't stupid but she does stuggle with some subjects at times and I feel she would try harder if he would give her more supportive imput instead of degrading her and saying all the time, she is lazy and not doing enough. She hears this from him ALL the time.

Dev2,<P>Will your H listen to an outside opinion, then maybe you should both see somebody who doesn't take sides but listening to both sides and give an "objective" opinion on the matter. It could be a school cousellor or even a phychologist or a good friend, whom you both trust.

Sad Man,<P>It is worth a shot. I am going to make an appointment with some her teachers where she has been having trouble. H said he would go with me. H thinks I don't see her grades as important. I do, but it is his tactics on how to get better grades out of her that I have trouble with. He has done it his way and nothing gets better. Even when she has made the honor roll, he still finds something to complain about. Why did you get this C on this test, why did you get a B on this? Etc. etc. He focuses on all the bad and barely recognizes the good. So she feels why bother anymore. She feels there is nothing she can do that is right according to him.

I would also like to say, that when I think of what he did to me and this marriage and what he is doing to my daughter I want to kick the living #### out of him. It makes me so angry. I'm venting O Kay?! He wants Me to understand him and his feelings but what about me and D? He can be such an $#%$#@&^*^&^^&%^$#@!!!! sometimes and too much of the time when it comes to my D. I feel a little bit better now, not much but a little for letting that out. I dread it when he comes home tonight. I will do my best to not LB. I'm going to pray about it. Wonder what he is thinking. Probably, that I nor D appreciate him enough. Does that mean we have to put up with him being a tyrant?

DEV2, how does retreating to his cave, tossing your letters (written to help IMPROVE the situation) and indulging in porn help the situation? It doesn't in the least, it is more like a one fingered salute in your general direction because of a "my way or the highway" mentality on his part. I am having a hard time understanding where you are at together - are you actively living plan A, if so, for how long? Are your daughter and his close in age? Any other kids? If so, similar issues with all of them or specific to this daughter? Has he always responded like this if you didn't agree with his opinion?<BR>Cheers<BR>Lisa<BR>

LisaM,<P>In response to your questions, I have been in plan A since this past November. Not that long I know. No other children, Just my daughter and his who lives with mother in another state. Both girls are 8 months apart in ages. And yes he has always reacted this way concerning this issue with D. Especially when I try to explain things to make a more positive impact. And yes, I feel the preverbeal one finger salute from him. And his pulling away doesn't help any, just makes it worse. I will be staring my job next week and this is such a wonderful way to begin it. My stomach will be in knots wondering what he is up to while I am not around. As long as we are not communicating and trying to get through all this crap that hits at once it seems, it will be difficult to concentrate on what I am suppose to be doing at work. <P>Is he trying to push me away, or is it more, do things his way and shut up about the rest. Not only our marriage is in trouble so is the relationship with D. Or rather lack of one.<BR>He said he never committed to this marriage before and that is why he thinks he cheated.<BR>Great! He isn't committing now. So now what, more bimbos to have to deal with?

Dev2, no you don't have to live with a tyrant and if he's actively and continuously poisoning both your and your daughters life, it might be a good idea to consider Plan B.<P>Talk it over with him, tell him that you are no longer able to take the pain of him hurting both you and your daughter.<P>Whatever you do or decide, you will be in my prayers as well.

I just wanted to thank everyone for helping and being there for me today. Had a bad night, lots of crying but I will find strength in God. See, I'm not a hopeless case God wants me. Anyway, thank you all today. I wish the best for you guys and I am praying hard for you. I wish I had that magic wand.