I am not here to "blame" anyone or even this forum. I just feel compelled to share my heartbreak to unsuspecting and hurting people like many of you reading this now.<P>I stumbled across these boards last spring looking for help to avoid a dangerous situation at work with another woman. In doing so...I met another "struggling" woman here who offered me much support. We became a support to each other over time...and yes...I jumped out of the "frying pan into the fire". <P>I was struggling with "withdrawl" and found those deep cravings of need transferred from one person...to another. The pain has been gut wrenching as the "bomb" hit and am now trying to heal my marriage. Many people have been potentially damaged by this horrible blunder on my part.<P>Please...don't misunderstand....I do not blame anyone but myself. I just came in blindly...needing help...found some good advice...but "slipped" and became dependent on these boards and fell into the hurting arms and heart of another woman. We ended up meeting in person...and have brought much more hurt and pain into our lives.<P>I would be curious to know if others have taken a similar course on these boards. If not, Praise God for that. Let my fall serve as a warning to those who think it couldn't happen to them.<P>I won't be back....just wanted to leave this under a new "alias".<P>Blessings to all who read....Let God be your healer.

There are some good rules that one should adhere to:<P>1. Never (NEVER) discuss maritial problems with a member of the opposite sex.<P>2. Keep all communications as "posts" here, and do not get into email situations (especially 1-on-1). It's more healthy, and it's also more appropriate---a 1-on-1 situation can easily turn into a counselor-patient situation, and unless you're trained to counsel, you should be hesitant to do this.<P>3. Don't do the chat thing. While it's well-meaning, it's not a very appropriate form of support, and it can be pretty addicitve.<P>4. Never meet someone of the opposite sex off the board. We're (in general) all here because we're in struggling marriages). You might as well take a bath in gasoline and then light a match.<P>With all that being said, I've been guilty of 1 (rarely) and 2. But those are excellent rules to keep you safe here at MarriageBuilders.

Yes, I have thought that this is a strong possibility, and I suspect that some people here have been teetering very close to that line.<P>It's something of which I'm cognizant. I guess I'm a frustrated social worker, but I try not to correspond with ANYONE online of the opposite sex, unless there's a darn good reason.

Never (NEVER) discuss marital problems with a member of the opposite sex?<P>With all due respect, I think that's taking things a bit too far.<P>In my attempts to understand this crazy situation I am in, I have found it very helpful to talk with my sister-in-law (my brother's wife). She is able to give me the female perspective...and since I am not female...I think that's an important perspective to have if I want to understand my wife better (my wife's a female!). I have no intention at all of betraying my brother by having an affair with his wife.<P>If I've found one questionable thing about this website...or perhaps the Harley philosophy...it's that, in some cases, it's too black and white. Not all cases are black and white. And not all people who discuss marital problems with members of the opposite sex are tempted to hop in the sack with those people.<P>I found it equally absurd the recommendation from someone in this forum that I move from my beloved hometown and the dream job I have worked a lifetime to achieve...so that my wife would not be in the same city as the OM.<P>Both of these black and white statements are based on the assumption that all human beings are weak...and I don't agree with that.<P>Granted there are many weak people in the world...my wife is a prime example...but you can't paint all people with the same broad brush. There are some very strong people posting messages here. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for them...and I think they can handle a little more "leash" than the Harley philosophy is willing to afford them.<P>As for me, I will continue confiding in my sister-in-law. She has helped me tremendously. And I will continue living in the hometown I love. <P>I also love my wife...and I want her back, but I'm not willing to sacrifice everything, including my wonderful friendship with my sister-in-law AND my self respect, to get her back.<P>I'm sorry if this is counter to the Harley religion (much of which I agree with)...but it is what I believe.

Searching:<P>You're free to do what you want, of course...<P>But I also know of more than one instance of affairs that started between H and SIL. And a large proportion of affairs (I'd guess >50%) start by "sharing" marital problems with members of the opposite sex. So the caution is well-advised.<P>And again, the intention to move to get away from the OM is a good one. What you have said is that your marriage isn't as important as you living in your hometime---and that you're willing to risk your marital recovery on that.<P>And that's OK---as long as it's OK with you. Harley speaks about what's best for THE MARRIAGE.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying living in my hometown is more important than my marriage. I am saying that my very unstable marriage (which my wife is not yet willing to commit to rebuilding..or even talking to me about)...is not worth sacrificing everything over...especially my self respect.<P>And to suggest that one should not talk with a family member of the opposite sex about marital problems is, I think, ludicrous. To suggest that people should avoid this avenue of helpful communication because a few low-life individuals would sell out their own brothers and sisters to sleep with their spouses is sickening.<P>And, although I think your advice is sound in a very very general way, it should not be taken as Gospel for everyone. And when I say Gospel...I mean the Gospel according to Jesus Christ...not the Gospel according to Harley. There is a huge difference.

Qoute:------------------------------------<BR>it should not be taken as Gospel for everyone. And when I say Gospel...I mean the Gospel according to Jesus Christ...not the Gospel according to Harley. There is a huge difference.<BR>------------------------------------------<P>Resounding statement there. No offense K. <P><P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P><BR>

Searching:<P>Again, I know where you're coming from. If I were you at your point, I wouldn't be moving either. But I'd be willing to bring it up with my wife, to discuss it as a means to get through the (potential) withdrawal, and start a "new" marriage together in a place that wouldn't trigger memories.<P>Harley never recommends actively moving while the affair is ongoing---only as an aid to recovery, once the affair is over.<P>The issue of discussing "marital problems" with a member of the opposite sex, even a sister-in-law, is not "ludicrous" at all. To be safe, it would be best if your conversations along these lines included both your brother and his wife. And I would caution you to involve anyone in this situation---the more people who know about your wife's infidelity, the harder the recovery process. It's better to use a professional counselor and one or two close (same sex) friends outside the family for support.<P>Your comment that not all human beings are weak is inaccurate. Pretty much, we all are. And what's especially important is that when you believe that you're not, and that the rules "don't apply to you---the strong one"; you're in a precarious position of being close to actually slipping. <P>Trust me. I was strong, moral, knew better, was being coached by the best (Steve Harley), and I still ended up in an situation that I shouldn't have. I should have (and did) know better, but I ignored the rules because I was "strong". Thankfully there was no serious harm done, but it wasn't good...<P>And if Chris is reading---that's exactly why I busted on him when he was out bar hopping a couple weeks ago. The intentions may be innocent---but no one usually plans to go down the path of infidelity.<P>This doesn't mean to imply that I think you're going to jump your SIL, it's just to warn you to not let her be your sole source of "support".

And I'm not sure how you mean "gospel", but Harley's "methods" are highly consistent with the Gospel according to Jesus Christ. I don't elevate the MB principles to a religion, but they're certainly embodied in the NT.<P>

Thanks, K.<P>I appreciate and respect your opinion, although I do not agree totally.<P>The main thing I want to caution about is "absolutes." Not all people are cut out of the same cookie cutter.<P>And another...I know Dr. Harley is a smart man who has helped a lot of people...but I am put off by what I perceive to be almost a cult following of him. He is a human being...and if I follow your line of thinking...all human beings are weak.<P>Again...I respect your opinion. Please take no offense.<P>

I think that I understand your issue with "cult". Of course, realize that this is a web site created by Dr. Harley, so most of it will focus on the MarriageBuilder's philosophy. As regards to your reference to the "weak" Dr. Harley, I'm sure he would agree---he follows the same rules in his marriage that he puts out here.<P>The "absolutes" issue is also interesting. I've found amazing success in following Steve Harley's counseling advice. Not all of it is "common sense" at first, although a great majority of it is. People like to say that everyone is different, and each situation is unique. And to a point---they are. But these "absolute" rules for marriage are highly effective. In fact, I don't know of a single case where someone has followed these rules and NOT been successful. It's tough getting there by the time you find this website---you're usually dealing with an affair by then. But even through that, I've seen that the majority of people who use this information "correctly" (and this is my opinion, from what I can tell at my great distance) are successful, even if the marriage doesn't survive. And that success rate goes way up if you actually use one of the Harley's for counseling (Steve--the son, his dad Willard, or Jennifer---the daughter).<P>I guess that I'm saying that the first time anyone faces infidelity, they feel alone and that thier situation is unique. It's usually not the case, and the MarriageBuilder's cookie-cutter approach gives you the tools to be extremely successful. Most other methodology for dealing with affairs is not nearly as effective, and that's reflected in the abysmal divorce rates for this country.<P>Don't worry about stating your opinion---I love to discuss these issues.<P>

Searching,<P>My husband, too, was put off by Harley and the "absolutes". We even had a couple of sessions with Harley and he still did not feel comfortable with him. He felt he was too religious and didn't have the credentialing to substantiate what he was doing.<P>Fast forward many months. Today...although the husband is still not a Harley Believer....we are experiencing a better marriage than ever. How are we doing it ? Following a majority (not all) of Harley's defined practices. That's really the point here....what practices can you employ to have the best possible marriage?? <P>...and honestly, who wouldn't agree that you protect your spouse, spend time with them, use joint agreements when making decisions...etc. <P>Aren't these the things we did when we first met up with our spouse before we allowed things to get in the way and didn't focus on our marriage ?<P>Good luck - Tina<P>ps. <BR>I was especially struck by your post because my BIL began confiding in me years ago..all the while expressing an interest to work on his marriage and seeing a counselor...I knew he was slipping into a bad place when he began to WANT to talk to me MORE than his wife.....didn't start out that way...and I sure didn't reciprocate those feelings .... when you need something....it's going to come from somewhere !<P>

Searching:<P>I salute you in your comments about Harley followers almost being a cult.<P>Dr Harley is a mere man with feet of clay and I too have felt that people on this board were elevating him to a 'god'<P>I'm sure he has many good points, but I choose to hear from the Holy Spirit for myself!<P>The problem is....most of Christian Psychology (which always has a price tag on it which I do not agree with as the Bible says to 'buy the truth and sell it not' and Christian Counselors are making a bloody fortune off the misery of others) anyway, much of Christian Psychology is laced with 'humanism' and the wisdom of man.<P>Every believer has the awesome to hear from the Holy Spirit for themselves!<P>I like MB and have posted on it many times, but I have been distressed with those that seem to hang on to every word Harley speaks.<P>Thanks for having enough 'guts' to speak out.<P>[censored] from Texas

Guys,<P>I think you're reading too much into the "Harley Cult" thing. I've never gotten the impression that anyone here has elevated Dr. Harley to the level of a God. For God's sake, the man simply wants to HELP.<P>I don't recall Dr. Harley saying that NOBODY will succeed unless they follow his plan to the letter. He simply states that, from his experience working with couples dealing with infidelity, that more people succeed more often using the techniques and rules he has developed.<P>Would he say that failing to cut off contact with OP will inevitably doom the marriage? I don't think he ever said that. I think he said it makes it <B>more difficult to succeed</B>. Is that wrong? I don't think so. Does it mean those of you who DON'T cut contact will fail? I don't think so. I think it means exactly what it says: You will have a more difficult time recovering if you don't cut contact.<P>When Dr. Harley says "Total Honesty" does that mean if you are NOT honest all the time that you'll fail? I don't think so. I think it means that, in general, failure to be honest all the time will make it more difficult for you to recover.<P>The absolutes are there as guidelines, as what they are meant to be: generalities. I think intelligent people understand that the rules have to adapted for the peculiarities of every situation. Perhaps no contact isn't feasible. Perhaps meeting needs isn't the <I>only</I> key to a happy marriage. I don't know. But don't let the absolutes sour you to the wealth of information within.<P>Personally, I find the whole concept of "love units" a little oversimplified. But, ya gotta admit, it's a great metaphor for building up the love. <P>If somebody really relates to Dr. Harley's principles, let them revel in it. These times are so difficult for us - discovering that your spouse has strayed creates such a feeling of isolation. Personally, I found Dr. Harley's message of hope invigorating, and if others want to cling to those principles like a life raft, who are we to say they are wrong? If Dr. Harley does nothing else, he helps bring hope back to those who fear the end of their marriages. Does it ALWAYS lead to reconciliation? Of course not, but nothing is perfect.<P>Let's all just accept the fact that these principles WORK for some and may not work for others. The WHY of it all can be left up to us as individuals. I don't consider Dr. Harley to be a god, but I do credit his techniques with helping me better understand why my wife did what she did. Even if my marriage had disintigrated, the wealth of information I've learned here about "why" would have been worth my time.<P>Peace!<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Lone Star:<P>Well put. I never meant for my post to take anything away from Dr. Harley. He obviously is doing this to help people...and he obviously has had tremendous success. I have learned a lot of very helpful things on this website. This is not a negative observation about him in any way. My concern was that there are people posting here who are following him as someone would follow a cult leader. I'm concerned that they are hanging on every word he says as if he is a supernatural being...and that, in the process, they are not using the brains that God gave them to make intelligent decisions on their own. <P>Finally...I still disagree with "K" that all human beings are weak. Certainly, we all experience moments of weakness, but we are created in the image of God...and if we trust God...and live our lives as God would have us to live them, we are strong...not weak. I believe there are more strong people out there than "K" gives credit for.<P>

I was reading the other posts thinking, "why would it be a problem to speak with others of the opposite sex re: marital problems - wouldn't it give you better input into what the other sex is thinking about?". But then I thought back to what was one problem in my marriage - lack of communication. The OW filled my shoes listening to my H's problems and struggles, and slowly went from a "friend" to more than that. I can easily see how someone in need would be easy prey - intentionally or otherwise.<P>I have greatly benefited from other sex recommendations on this board, but I would definitely not recommend a continuous chat or repoire (SP?) with another member of the opposite sex.

Searching:<P>Instead of "weak", let me rephrase. No one is immune to having an affair. And while there are plenty of people who are "strong" enough to break the rules and not have affairs, it's similar to playing irresponsibly with fire. You may get burned.<P>And as Kate points out---it's fine to get information and recommendations from members of the opposite sex. We do it here at the forum all the time. What's inappropriate is taking it to a 1-on-1 relationship---and that's the intent of NoMas' original post. Don't do it...

K:<P>In general, I agree with you...but when the member of the opposite sex is also a member of your family...I think, in many cases, it is OK. I can't understand a blanket condemnation of this. My goodness, has society gone so far downhill that most people would not think twice about jumping into bed with a family member? That is sickening! I don't understand the reluctance about this. Am I completely alone in thinking this way? This is a sad commentary on human beings.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My goodness, has society gone so far downhill that most people would not think twice about jumping into bed with a family member?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Let see, 66% of married men & 40-50% of married women don't think twice about about their marriage vows to God when they have an affair. Why should doing it with a family member be a cause for them to think twice?

Searching:<P>Look at how many people are here because they (or their spouse) had an affair (whether it's emotional, kissing, or full-blown) with an in-law. I think it happens more than many of us would like to admit.<P>We like to think that, in decent society, it doesn't happen, but look at what's going on out there. There are so many television shows, movies, soap operas, videos, whatever, that seem to depict people betraying spouses with family members. Now, granted, most of that stuff is "made up" nonsense, but have you seen how many people eat that stuff up?<P>I would never be one to say that we should all do the stuff we see on TV. But, there IS something to the argument that the more of it we see, the more desensitized we get to it and the more mainstream it gets.<P>I've talked to TOO many people on this board who betrayed with their brother's wife or their sister's husband or their cousin's spouse. Let's face it, it DOES happen, and it's getting more common.<P>Your family may not be so prone to it. Personally, I don't think mine is either. But, I wouldn't feel comfortable talking intimately with my brother's wife about MY wife, unless my wife was fully apprised of the conversation (and by fully apprised, I mean that I would have to tell her EVERYTHING).<P>If you start having these heart-to-hearts with a family member of the opposite sex, what you're doing is starting to replace the role of your spouse. You should be trying to get to the root of your spouse's feelings by talking to the source -- your spouse. It doesn't hurt to get another perspective, but I wouldn't do it without my spouse's consent and full knowledge.<P>You're just opening yourself up to <I>potential</I> problems.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited January 13, 2000).]