I found out last October that my husband developed an "inapropriate relationship" with a mutual friend of ours. They worked for 10 years. He claims that from a physical standpoint, they only kissed and that it only happened once. He claims he felt if he kept the relationship non-physical that it would be OK and no one would get hurt. <P>However, he sent her flowers, called her every other day, and lied to me about where he was when they went out together. This went on for a year. <P>During this time he became very angry at home (very unlike my husband). He refused to participate in any responsibilities regarding keeping up the house and our finances. When he was let go from his job after his company was bought, he did not bother to look for another one. <P>Just prior to the development of this relationship, his dad died of cancer. <BR>His dad lived with us for a while when he was ill. When he went into the hospice, I went to visit him with my husband every night but 3 for 6 months. I even droped my class to be with him quit school to spend time with him and his dad and took another semester off to go to Paris with my husband after his dad died to try to recover from the stress we had been under (his idea). <P>When the time came to book the tickets (just weeks after his dad died) he suddenly changed his mind. I learned later that this is when his relationship with "our friend" crossed the line!!!???<P>3 weeks after his dad died his boss was let go and was replaced by a jerk who basically used my husband for his knowledge (after being passed over for the job himself). He was very distraught over his work situation and wanted to quit. My advise to him was to think about the emotional challenges a job search would pose and to compare them to the challenges of going into the office and that if he still wanted to quit - then quit. <BR>Unfortunatly he interpreted this as "you don't want me to quit my job". <P>He only fessed up about his relationship when I found a note from her that said "I love you sweetie".<P>Now that I know, he says he is sorry and is consumed with guilt. He feels he let everyone down (me, my family, his family) including himself and says he is ashamed for being so weak. He has told me that he wants to work on our marriage and yet he has made no romantic gestures towards me and can not seem to tell with any amount of passion that he loves me. He seems to want to act as if nothing ever happened. It makes me crazy since I have so much pain to try to come to terms with.<P>Is there anyone out there who can give me some male insight into this. How could this happen when I was so supportive during his dad's illness? Is what I said about quiting really enough to drive him into someone elses arms? I interpret his lack of romantic gestures after such a hurtful event as evidence that he does not love me. That what he really seeks in reconnecting with me is release from his guilt.<P> Finally,does anyone belive you can have a deep emotional relationship with someone for a year and "only kiss? It seems unlikely to me!<P>Please help!

Hi Acacia & welcome to MB Forum, some members of the "Welcome Wagon" will come soon.<P>I believe that IT IS possible to have a long-term relationship with someone, never have physical contact with that person but still been unfaithful. Getting back a spouse from any relationship is definitely harder than forgiving the spouse for a one-night stand.<P>My W has an affair that has lasted exactly 2 months (as I type this THEY are out celebrating). What I have learned other than why is she having it is that in a way I was a betrayer too (before her), the intention was there because I too had (have) many unmet emotional needs. It was only time that made the difference but for several years I didn't have a physical relationship with anybosy else for fear of losing my W but in my mind I betrayed her too, and your husband probably feels the same way or he wouldn't feel guilty about letting everyone down & been self centered.<P>Don't be too hard on him or you, love is not about "I gave you this and what have you given in return?" It rather is about giving with no conditions. Your husband has emotional needs that are not been met & it's good that you have come to MB for help- read other pages of this web site & learn about emotional needs, read other threads, post a lot, reply a lot, learn a lot and above all love your husband a lot but don't expect that right now he'll respond to you the same way. The ball is in your court and you can do a lot with it.<P>Hang in there.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<BR>

Welcome <B>acacia</B>, to the Marriage Builders - Infidelity Forum.<P>You've come to the right place... <P>The people here represent both betrayed spouses and betrayers(waywards) alike and the occasional Other Woman/Man/Person (OW/OM/OP).<BR><B>All</B> of us are really here to try and build or rebuild our marriages... and we are trying to use principles and concepts that are espoused by Dr. Willard Harley of Marriage Builders(MB).<P>There is a wealth of information here at this site, starting from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>Marriage Builder's Home Page</A>.<P>If you're new to the ideas being presented here at MB start off with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts</A>.<P>Many of us need to start immediately working on our marriages and a <B>sound</B> understanding of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A and Plan B</A> is crucial! You need to start on an immediate <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! It won't eleviate your bad feelings... at least not right away... but it is the course of action to follow!<P>You'll see a barrage of "terms" which you might guess the meaning of... but an alternative is to look up what they mean at this site... Words like (click on them to find out):<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Giver and Taker</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>.<P>You'll need to learn more about, not just marriage building... but self building too! The learning isn't going to happen overnight though... look at the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8100_article.html" TARGET=_blank>Articles</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Infidelity Q&A</A>.<BR>The real learning is best aided by obtaining some of the books from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Bookstore</A>... of most important for those who have affairs in progress, or soon to be, is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley. <B>This is the 'bible' for this forum.</B><BR>Other books can be very useful as well... like <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6010_give.html" TARGET=_blank>"Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"</A>.<BR>There will be many other good books that the MB people will recommend... take their advice... they've been around. There is a post that lists many of these non-Harley book recommendations... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010158.html" TARGET=_blank>Books... books... books... (again)</A>.<P>Most of all... you will find <B>compassion</B> and <B>love</B> here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here!<BR>The people here have all had their lives thrown into a whirlwind of despair, confusion, and sadness.<BR>We've all experience gut wrenching emotions that we though could never exist, in anyone's idea of humanity.<BR>Feelings of hatred, love, disillusionment, envy, rejection, emptiness, <B>deep depression</B>, and on and on...<P>Just the books and facts aren't going to get you through it all... not without <B>support</B>. That's where <B>we</B> come in! <B>We</B> care... because <B>we</B> know how it feels. Believe it... <B>You are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <BR>Come to this forum to vent... to cry... to laugh (a little)... to express your feelings... to advise others... or just to get away!<BR>You're probably going through H*!! right now... don't go it alone... remember... <B>you are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <P>We can give you help... to build back many vital aspects of your life and sanity. <P>Post... Post... Post... Reply... Reply... Reply... READ! READ! READ!<P>I've been speaking in behalf of some dear friends... as well as some complete strangers too..., when I've used <B>"we"</B>!<BR>But... if you're here... join in with them... they <B>will</B> join in with you. <B>We</B> do not always agree with each other on how to handle situations... but each of us is offering to you advice base on individual experiences. Search out those people on the forum that have experiences similar to yours... and ask... ask... ask! <P>My W started her affair about 7 months after her father died... and I was more like a son to him than any of his children. A death in the family is a common pre-occurance to an affair!<P>The best thing you can do to <B>not</B> drive your H away is going into <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! Do get the book and read up on it! Also ask us!!!<P>BTW: Your H does love you... he might not know it... but he does. And yes... guilt is there... don't discard it.. you'll need that "guilt" as an ally.<P>About the kiss... sorry to say but... your H is (like many betrayers) becoming a master of deception... <P>Stay awhile...<BR>We do help... <P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

Thank you both so much for your replies. It is so good to know other people are out there. I will go and click on plan A and take a look at the book. I have read all of the basic concept pages, the articles on infidelity and my H and I did take the emotional needs survey. We are also in counceling. I have asked my H about what needs he has that he I was not meeting and he tells me he does not know.???? I wonder about that. Can you really have an affair and not know why???<P>The one item that the survey revealed is that he feels we need to talk more. Yet he admits that we do talk and he does not know why he feels this way. He "could not remember" why he scored that need as low as being met!!!<P>I need help. I don't think I can do this by myself. He has to want to participate too. Don't you think!<P>Acacia

acacia,<P>Even if your husband only kissed her, all the other stuff that was going on wasn't appropriate, especially if he was lieing or hiding the relationship. It's possible that your husband still isn't telling the whole truth yet. <P>Part of what may have caused him to seek out the other woman was that he was likely pretty vulnerable after his dads dieing. He may have talked to the other woman about it and got some understanding from her. Your support for him during this period was real understanding. Hers was cheap and easy. Unfortunately, you husband didn't see it that what, but that what affairs are about. Fantasy. <P>Needs can be a tough thing to figure out or sometimes admit. Untill I read Dr. Harleys books about needs, I never knew what my needs were or my wifes needs for that matter. Reading and learning has helped me figure out my needs and I think my wifes. The hard part is meeting hers while she's not meeting mine. It can seem pretty unfair sometimes when you feel like your the only one working at it, but try to be patient. I have recently started reading "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" by Susan Page, and she does a real good job explaining how much sense it does make for one person to work on the marriage while the other one doesn't seem to want to. <P>Anyway good luck to you and hang in there. <p>[This message has been edited by TimJ (edited January 14, 2000).]

Acacia I discovered this site on Christmas nite 99 and what a God sent gift it has been. Since then, I've have read everything on Harley's site. I've also read His needs Her need. I have also visited this forum often, but this is the first time that I've replied. I can totally relate to your story. In January of 98 I learned that my Husband was in love with another woman. I learned this from the ow's husband. He was able to listen in on one of their phone conversations and catch them red handed. They were forced to fess up. In the mess that followed , I mean MESS. Your talking 5 young children between both families.<P> Needless to say it was agreed upon by all parties involded that all would work to restore their respective family. But in the aftermath of that decision the offenders where undenialably caught breaching that agreement time and time again for almost a complete year(After reading Dr.H I now understand the dynamics of why). <P> The bottom line now,is that my husband says he is committed to me. We are finally moving out of town next month. We are starting a new life! I really believe he is sincere. But here is my confusion which relates to yours, My H had this 2 year relationship plus the year of tring to break it off,he never denied the affair. Infact he took full responsibily saying that he loved her very much. He never lied in that respect, but he claims only to have kissed her once. My h is a very passionate man. I know how it was when he was passionate about me. He rocked the bed! I find it very very very hard to believe that he never slept with her. Especially when our bed did't seem to rock near as often. I'm talking at one point he was willing to sacrafic me, the kids, his generous income for her.<P> The problem is that in order for me to move forward I need to know if they had sex. I don't want extreme details. Just the basics: if they did, how often and where. I feel I'm being played the fool, that's all. Like Truman in the Truman Story, everybody knows but me. Everybody here talks about truth and honesty. I NEED HONESTY!!! and nobody's told me how to get that yet. I know by reading Harley, that all the balls are in my court right now. My h is willing to leave the city, he is with me not her. He says he loves me and is willing to work on everything we are learning. I should be counting my blessing. But honesty tops my chart in the needs survey. You see I already survived one so called "emotional affair" that he had previous to this one. My delima is do I want to move to a new city with a man I precieve is lying to me? Should I? God knows how much I love him.<P> Sorry Acacia this is not a man's opinion, just someone who is in the same boat. I hope there are more responses to your appeal. <BR>Lost her song (but trying to find it again) <P>[This message has been edited by Lost her song (edited January 14, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lost her song (edited January 14, 2000).]

Yes, yes, yes, yes,yes!!!!Me too! Honesty is also my number one need and I too find it hard to continue when I feel like he has not told me the whole truth!<P>As I have told him, I can forgive the kiss. So what! There are two things that I find hard to get over. The first is the length of the relationship and the fact that he did not tell me about the kiss when it happened. But what bothers me the most is how he lied about it again and again.<P>How can anyone have a relationship without truth. He knows I need to make a decision and by not telling me the whole truth he is with holding details that I need to be fully comfortable with my decision. Which ironically means my decision may be based on another one of his lies!!!!! <P>I need to know the full extent of thier relationship -not the details - to decide what I want and to decide if I can full forgive him. Other wise my forgivness is based on a lie! How can that ever work -especially if I find some evidence down the road that contridicts his story!!!. <P>I also don't know who I am married to any more. After his dad died and his boss was fired, he began acting very odd. Not just regarding hiding the affair. He was very angry, he became extreamly iresponsible, bitter, and he began lying (about other things outside of the affair.(the sale of his dad's house, etc).<P> I feel like I am living in a house of mirrors and I don't know what is real anymore. I swear I don't know who I am married to anymore. I can't reconcile his behavior with the guy that I married!<P>Acacia

Lost her song <B>and</B> Acacia,<P>If you H's are truely in a recovery mode...<BR>and there is the pain of unmet honesty...<P>can you talk to you H's about some counseling...<BR>Even, if they don't go... you should...<BR>It will let your H's know about just how <B>important</B> this issue is to you!<P>Acacia... your in couseling already... for you I would recommend that you have 2 <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> ($85US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A>. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A>! Steve is a "skill builder"... you and your H need some skill's to work on to get that level of honesty back!<P>Good Luck to you both...<BR>Keep posting...<P>Lost her song... You've never had you own initial post... (I'm the normal welcome wagoneer)... <B>Welcome</B>... the first message I gave to acacia... goes well for you too!<P>Prayers... (what we sometimes call <B>Plan P</B>) to you both... <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 14, 2000).]

Acacia,<BR>I can give you some male insight into this maybe. Being the batrayer, I can tell you that the concept of the "fantasy" rang true with me. When I was with the OW I had no worries or any problems. This is not reality. I think that as time went on that maybe you didnt meet your husbands needs as well as you should have and he continued on the downward spiral. Before you get mad at me I want to make it clear that it is a cycle, he wasnt meeting your needs, then you dont meet his needs, all the time it continues to get worse and worse at home, all the while the OW can more easily meet his needs in this "fantasy world" where there are no conflicts, bills to pay, kids,ect.. It is really sad what happens, I think that in most cases the betrayed has no chance to meet the waywards needs until the wayward decides he wants to end it completely with OW. <P>You ask if an affair can go on for this long and only kiss. In my case it never even went that far. I think that it could of easily have went much futher than just an emotional affair and quite frankly I think it would have been much easier if there was no real emotional attatchment and just a sexual thing. I think my wife might even agree with this. <P>Your husband I dont think would reconnect with you as a release from his guilt. I dont know your husband though. I know I still have trouble with feeling guilty about what happened. Reconnecting with my wife didnt release me from my guilt. <P>I dont think I have said anything real profound here. I think what I wanted to get across was the "fantasy" idea. That all makes sense to me now. Plan A really works.<BR>Hang in there and if I need to clearify anything let me know, I'll try to provide some more thoughts.<P>Greg<P>Lost Her Song---You scare me with the similaritys of our situations. Search topics under "Best Friend Betrayal" for our story.<P>Jim--What is Plan P???????

Jim,<BR>I just reread your post and figured out Plan P. Dont I feel stupid now!!!!<BR>Greg

Acacia,<BR> Also not a male viewpoint but i too suffered from an ea w/my h. He worked w/ow for 2 1/2 years & I only discovered it when I found a note he had written @ her in his wallet. I too believe the ea is harder to deal w/then a 1 nite stand bc emotions are much harder to shut off. Long story short--he changed jobs & no longer sees her everyday, which is a huge relief to me. It's been 15 months since discovery & it does get easier as time goes on. Your h really does have to gain your complete trust back. He needs to prove he will be totally faithful to you. Good luck.<P>Keeping the faith,<P>Cassie

From what I understand most sexual affairs are deep emotional affairs, and the vice-versa is equally true.... in my mind....That most emotional affairs are sexual affairs. The majority of the people in this forum are not dealing with the aftermath of a one nite stand, so I think that is a mute point. Yeah, I think its easy to assume that the one is harder to overcome than the other.<P> But..What I think Acacia and myself find it so hard to grasp, is if an individual doesn't have the EMOTIONAL MATURITY to run like hec from an desirous yet disasterous situation, how does one expect us to believe that that the same individual does posess the PHYSICAL FORTITUDE to abstain from making out, petting, consumation. The concept seems utterly bizzare to me. Yeah right! like give me a break (give it a valley girl accent as you read). Remember I am a big girl, I know the facts of life. When someone is meeting your EN's the natural and corresponding action is to express it physically ie.SEX SEX SEX and more SEX. Harley states this himself in his book "His Needs Her Needs" paraphased ofcourse. <P> I think it was Jim who said that Acacia's H was mastering in deception. Then I think it was Greg who said that he himself had a sexless affair. I believe you Greg, because there's nothing hindering you from being open and honest on the forum.Greg, I don't understand the dynamics.. maybe you could expound on that a bit more. I want to know exactly why you chose to abstain, yet build such a strong bond. It's a fact that touch strenghthens bonds and soul ties. So what gives??????<P> Changing thought's here, what I think is hindering our husband's from telling us about the sex part,is one of two reasons: 1. a desire to protect and spare us from any further emotional pain<BR>2. A need to save face or pride, to escape the ramifications of what they actually did. <P> Anyway, Thank you Cammie and Guy's for the encouragement. Your helping me sort things out. <BR>p.s. I also think most betrayed were not ALLOWED to meet their Betrayers en's,or some of life's circumstance put them at an extreme disadvantage in being able to do so. No man can be another's all in all, that's what God is for, so we can run to him when we are in temporary lack, My H knew this truth. He had a personal relationship with the Father. Yet he sought his relief from life's temporary discomfort is the arm's of a fantasy. <P><BR>------------------<BR>Lost her song (but trying to find it again) <p>[This message has been edited by Lost her song (edited January 14, 2000).]

Lost Her Song,<P>I guess the short answer is I new that the sex would eventially happen. Until the end I would think that technically this was not a real affair because the sex never took place. I dont know when exactly that the line got crossed emotionally but it became very clear at some point that the OW s feelings meant more than my wifes feelings. <P>Greg

Greg, you did say something profound in your post. Reconnecting with your wife did not relieve you from your guilt! Good point! <P>It is also good to know that your affair was emotional. At least shows that it is possible. My H also subscribed to the no physical contact no affair idea. While this is hard for me to grasp, he seemed at times to want to hide the truth about the depth of his relationship with her to himslef as much as to me. Does this make sence to you? <P>It wasn't until we got into counciling that he saw his relationship with her was wrong. Even before I found the note I confonted him in a loving way with the support of my own therapist. <P>I told him that I would not continue to be his wife while she was his confident. There was nothing that I wanted than to be his wife but I just could not continue on while he shared himslef with her.<P>I said realized that he may decide to choose her and that I was willing to accept that. If he decided to work on the marriage, I told him I needed him to fully commit to us and to end all contact with her!<P>Although he agreed to work on our marriage, he seemed shocked by my request. "She is just a friend" But in a weeks time he thought about it and agreed that while there had been no physical contact, his relationship with her was wrong and he had had an emotional affair with her. It was later that I found out about the kiss, the flowers etc.<P>I have always wondered if this was really the case or if is just a clever guise for hiding his lies. Come on...he sent her flowers after he kissed her!!!!<P>I would love your feedback!<P>Acacia

Wow. I hate telling you this but, I will tell you what happened to me. My H met woman at party in Oct 98. First weekend together was told it was "business" trip. When I found out about OW, he claimed they were just friends. The next weekend out of town he called a "business" trip. Sent her flowers-card read "Miss you very much". I found out she stayed with him in hotel. He claimed they did not sleep together-the room had TWO beds in it. Continued to maintain there was nothing going on, they were just friends and he really didn't like her that much. Swore there was no sex, no relationship. Yet, over the course of 60 days and only three weekend encounters, they logged over 70 hours of long distance telephone time, had sex 5 or 6 times that resulted in her getting pregnant and having a child in August, sent her four bouquests of flowers, gave her $3,000, wined and dined her in a hotel over two weekends and spent the Thanksgiving 1998 holiday with her at her sister's house in Texas where she got pregnant on November 29th when he should have been with his family. He even filed divorce papers against me, promised her he would divorce me and marry her when he got the news she was knocked up.<P>He lied over and over again that there was nothing there, that he wasn't in contact with her, that they never had sex, even called her names saying she was a stupid dullard looking for a meal ticket. Yet, he kept calling, and calling and calling her. He kept sending her flowers. He gave her a lot of money. He was the first to say "I love you". He told her that she was his soulmate. He promised to give her our Chevy Suburban and set her up with an apartment and open a branch office of OUR business in her state so she could work for him and answer phones. <P>So, be very careful of what you believe. Take what they tell you with a grain of salt and be prepared for other truths to be revealed later so you aren't completely caught off guard like I was. It is so humiliating to be surprised like this and then you feel like such a chump, like such an idiot.<P>I am sorry to have to say these things when so many are being so hopeful that they are hearing the truth from their spouse. I just don't want you to be ambushed later. Forewarned is forearmed.

Catnip, Thanks for the words of warning.<P>Cassie, I forgot to thank you earlier for the words of encouragement.<P>Lost Her Song, I was glad to see you added "but trying to get it back" to your user name!<P>Jim & Gregg, Your views have really helped me.<P>Thought you might like an update. I just spent the afternoon with my H. He tells me he thinks his relationship with the OW was based on comisseration and that what he wanted was to be pittied! When I asked him why he said he wanted to be the center of attention. I reminded him that he told me he no longer wanted to be the center of my universe. He told me that was different becasue he was affraid he would let me down -with her he had no responsibilities to live up to. You guys were right about the "fantasy" aspect.<P>I must say he sounds as if he is being honest here and it seems as is he is trying to find the root of the problem.<P>As Lost Her Song said, I don't think I could have met this need at the time. As his wife I will always be tied to responsibility. I am trying to figue out where the crack began however. Maybe I need to tell him that it is OK if he fails. The problem is I need to figure out where this pressure to never let me down comes from. Is it something I do or is it inherient in him to always try to be perfect????<P>I bought the books today and read Plan A. We are at least part way down the road given that he has ended his contact with OW and we (and he) are in couciling.<P>THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND THOUGHTS.<P>I always appreciate your feedback and listing to your stories too!!!<P>Acacia.