Hi folks--<P>I'm relatively new to the Infidelity board--but not so new on the other boards here at Marriagebuilders.<P>I am the betrayer...and after spending some days lurking (with the occasional post) on this board, something reached out and touched me.<P>I think it was the exchange between Big big dummy (who sounds like he's anything but) and his wife, Monique.<P>Don't know why, but I was struck with how they have seemed to, despite some little eruptions now and again, truly gone forward in recovering their marriage.<P>And I thought my H and I were too. We are. We are making wonderful strides but the problem continues with me--I just can't seem to forgive myself for this ultimate betrayal.<P>I'm feeling very sad today. I've been sick with the flu and brochitis for going on two weeks now and maybe that is coloring my view of things.<P>My husband has forgiven me and moved on. To him, the affair is no longer an issue. He has moved on and looks forward to the future. He shows me on a daily basis how much he loves and cherishes me; we continue to talk, find better ways of communicating and generally getting closer in a very real way. I really do love him and tell him so often--but even doing that comes with not a little pain.<P>The weight of what I have done burdens me greatly. I had an affair which began about a year ago, ended about four months later. Disclosure came just at the end of October and our progress has been nothing short of miraculous--and much of the credit for that goes to my husband.<P>I am so sad right now. I feel like I will never be able to get past this sadness. For the betrayed there is enormous suffering in learning your spouse has broken her vows of marriage to you (and I caused that pain! Damn what a bloody fool!). But too there must come some wonderfully warm feeling -- almost like a godliness -- in forgiving your loved one of such a serious transgression. I cannot imagine the strength it takes to find such forgiveness, though I am witness to it. Truth be told, I'm not sure I could ever forgive like my husband has.<P>But for the betrayer--me--what is there? There is the knowledge that above all, you totally dismissed your history, your love, your family for an affair. (And as convoluted as many of *our* stories are, they all do boil down to betrayals, don't they?) There is heartwrenching pain that you have joined some sort of perverted club; that you are now and forever an adulterous. Oh god, that hurts...but it's true.<P>I am in therapy and my psychologist keeps reminding me--as have others here <waving to K, JL and NB> that self-forgiveness takes time. And it comes when the affair ceases to have any effect on you. How can that ever be? How can I ever look myself in the mirror or into my husband's eyes again and not remember this horrible mistake I made????<P>I swear, if I could gnaw off a foot and be freed from this misery that I brought on myself, I would do it in a second. <P>What will it take to forgive myself????<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P>

thank you for posting that. you very graciously and eloquently said what my husband trys to say all the time. let your husband read it. it feels good just to know that you recognize the love he is pouring out on you. of course there is pain, and no, there isn't really a warm wonderful forgiving feeling (well not for me ye), at this point it is too outweighed by the hurt.<BR>thank you so much for reminding me to remember what he is going through too.<BR> 1john1:9 says that if "we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ultimately all forgiveness comes from God, since all of us have sinned. focus on Him and keep trying.

I'm sorry you are feeling so down! <BR>Boy oh boy oh boy! Did you ever hit the nail on the head with this one!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Francis:<BR><B><P>But for the betrayer--me--what is there? There is the knowledge that above all, you totally dismissed your history, your love, your family for an affair. (And as convoluted as many of *our* stories are, they all do boil down to betrayals, don't they?) There is heartwrenching pain that you have joined some sort of perverted club; that you are now and forever an adulterous. Oh god, that hurts...but it's true.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I took about 5 or 6 shots of tequila within 15 minutes after my first encounter with the first OM and after that I cried for 3 straight hours from feeling that guilt! Had I not had to go home, I would have cried longer. That was when I hit bottom and stayed there for about a year! Obvlivious to everything around me... In an alcoholic coma so to speak. Bad thing is, I was 37 and had only drank occasionally before this. It was obviouis to everyone that something was going on in my life! Especially my H. I am trying, as you, to find ways to forgive myself. I think that I will most likely never fully forgive myself, but I will try to as much as possible and get on with my life and make up all of that lost time to my H and family.<P>Good luck to you... sounds like you are moving forward and as much as I can tell, it is just going to take Time, Time and more Time for us to learn to forgive ourselves...<BR>Hope you get feeling better soon....<P><BR>

Hi Francis,<BR>I am glad you joined us here. Like so many things, it is going to take time. When something like this happens in a marriage there is allot of healing to do on both sides. Talk with your H about your feelings, share them in a journal. I know for me there was no warm wonderful feeling. I am just happy to have a chance to rebuild my marriage. Be patient with yourself. I believe you and your H will get through this together.<P>------------------<BR>Lots of love,<BR>Viki

You know as much as it hurt being betrayed, I really have more sympathy for the truly remorseful betrayer.<P>I would feel the same way. Not that I think you should, I just understand. I would feel that I had betrayed myself, my own beliefs and values, as well as betraying my H.<P>Just remember if God is willing to forgive, and he directs us to forgive, then it really is going against his will not to forgive yourself.<P>Just keep moving in that direction and give it time. The healing will come.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Sweetie,<P>So, this is how you are today, huh?? Still riding that same wagon that I am... when will we learn?<P>I saw Liz last night, and she played hard ball. She thinks I'm strong enough to look at the big picture, and finally let some things go, and possibly add a new element to my life.<P>Let me share what she said:<P>I am angry with several situations in my life, but none of them are because of the other person or situation: they are because of <B>Sheryl</B>. Ya, so not new you may think. But let me give you an example. By not deciding what to do with David (i.e. letting him stay in his apartment and "allowing" him to come home on weekends)I'm dangling him by a tenuous string - and in doing so I am punishing him, and myself (as usual). Why do I do this? That's the million dollar question, don't you think? I, like you, have a H who is willing to go forward, wants desperately to go forward <B>with me</B>, and is at a place to forgive...but I don't want him back 100%, not just yet, because I'm not done flogging myself. And let's face it, if I can't forgive myself, how can I expect him to forgive me?? <P>Liz also asked me when I was gonna get those yellow towels for the bathroom. Remember that? All I talked about was when David left I was gonna get those yellow towels. I got white instead. She asked why... uh, well, they were cheaper, and I couldn't get everything to go with the yellow towels (like the bath mat and shower curtain) so I wanted to wait until I could so my towels wouldn't clash with the gold shower curtain. Small thing, right? NO! You know why? Because we (as mother's and wives) are constantly denying ourselves things so that the family doesn't suffer... or so we say... but let's face it, in that diatribe of junk I just wrote was a nugget of information:<P>"I wanted to wait until I had everything before I did one small thing"... do you see it, Francis? I think I finally get it. I want it all at once or not at all. And that's not how it works. So guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go buy those towels!! Maybe even today!<P>Honey, you and I (and all betrayers on this board who are trying to find "their" truth) are good people...<B>GOOD PEOPLE</B> who made a mistake in judgement. <P>I love you, Francis... and to use your words...<B>you</B> "take good care".<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

If you truly are remorseful for what you did, and you definitely sound as though you are, and you show your husband, a husband that has chosen to forgive you and shower you with love, daily that you are truly remorseful, then self forgiveness will come. As someone else has posted here, it will take time, share your feelings with your H, don't be afraid to communicate these feelings with him, it will bring you closer. I am one of the betrayed and I have chosen to forgive my W and shower her with the love that I have for her, but sometimes it is very difficult to do because I don't always know what my W is feeling, while the communication between us has improved, she still does not come to me with what she feels and that makes it very difficult on the betrayed. So communicate with your husband and drown yourself in the love that he is giving you and the forgiveness will come.<p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited January 13, 2000).]

Francis:<P>A book that is supposedly very good on this subject is <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034541344X/qid=947780527/sr=1-6/103-0077633-8985464" TARGET=_blank>The Art of Forgiving</A> by Smedes.<P>When you have forgiven yourself, you'll be able to look on the event not with horror, but with the gladness that you both were able to make it through the process with a stronger marriage---and you'll treasure that marriage more and more.

Hi all--<P>Thank you for your responses--they all contained a lot of wisdom that seems to lead me down the same path--time. Time is suppose to be the great healer, right? I guess I'm not the most patient person in the world and I want so bad just to be rid of the horrible knot in my stomach that tells me, time and again, regardless of what I do, I cannot undue the past.<P>My dear NB, yes, your counselor makes a lot of sense as usual -- healing, like co-ordinated bathrooms comes in pieces. We can't get it all at once. Such a difficult lesson, isn't it, when it involves matters of the soul.<P>To the betrayed out there, who responded with such kindness, I apologize if I sent the wrong message. Coming from inside my head, I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be capable of forgiving someone such a grievous transgression. I imagined it as being wrapped up in some heavenly blanket--something akin to having God himself touch your heart and making it possible for you to forgive your spouse. Those of you who have reached that plateau--and yes, my husband is one of them--can hold your head up high with the truly honorable people of this world. Not so, sadly, for me. Not yet anyway.<P>That you have faced pain and betrayal and have somehow managed to transcend it says so much about who you are and what you are made of. I wish that quality were contagious.<P>K--thank you once again for the suggestion of the book...I'm going to click on the site now and see if I can order it. I think I need more guidance on self-forgiveness. You know us stubborn types--not always such a good quality.<P>But I loved what you said at the end--"When you have forgiveness yourself, you'll be able to look back on the event not with horror..." <okay, I'll take your word on it for now>..."but with gladness that you were able to make it through the process with a stronger marriage and you'll treasure that marriage more and more."<P>Gosh, sometimes I feel so close to that I can almost, almost touch it. <P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P><p>[This message has been edited by Francis (edited January 13, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Francis:<BR><B><BR>To the betrayed out there, who responded with such kindness, I apologize if I sent the wrong message. Coming from inside my head, I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be capable of forgiving someone such a grievous transgression. I imagined it as being wrapped up in some heavenly blanket--something akin to having God himself touch your heart and making it possible for you to forgive your spouse. Those of you who have reached that plateau--and yes, my husband is one of them--can hold your head up high with the truly honorable people of this world. Not so, sadly, for me. Not yet anyway.<P>That you have faced pain and betrayal and have somehow managed to transcend it says so much about who you are and what you are made of. I wish that quality were contagious.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This was my feeling with my ex, too. You said it in much more positive terms than me, though. I expressed it as the feeling that he would be "one up" on me, and that I'd feel forever ashamed and "less than" him no matter what *I* did or what *he* did. My only saving grace, if you want to call it that now, is that I get to decide who "knows" now and who doesn't and I don't have to put up with anyone (my ex included) who is going to degrade me for my mistakes. That is my blessing. <P>As you know, I still struggle with this daily as well. So I don't have alot of advice to give here. You are blessed to have an H who is able to forgive. That I know.<P>I don't know if this will help, but you know, all of us have "sinned". You mentioned being in the adulterer's club. We are all in the same club in that we've all done things that have hurt people at some point in our lives and we have all done things that we may have regretted. We (as humans) play little games with ourselves and try to judge which sins are better or worse than others. If you believe in God, you will know that God does not judge which sins are "worse" than others, they are all just sins in "his" eyes and equally deserving of forgiveness. That is still tough for me because we live here on earth and have to deal with other people. <P>You (me too) have put the betrayed on a pedestal simply because they haven't chosen our particular sin. Just because they haven't betrayed someone sexually doesn't mean they are innocent of all betrayal. Ok, saying that does not mean we should be spending our time "bashing" those betrayed. I only say in the sense "Those without sin, cast the first stone". I'm sure you've forgiven "sins" of your H and other people too. You too have been wrapped in this heavenly blanket you speak of. Ah Francis, you and I have something in common, I think. We both appear to appreciate certain traits in others much more than we can appreciate those traits in ourselves. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 13, 2000).]

Hi TS--<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B> ...I get to decide who "knows" now and who doesn't. That is my blessing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have always had that decision...Yeah, I am so blessed I so know that...My H never uttered a word of *this* to anyone save his psychologist and a very close friend of his during the initial disclosure period, which was nothing short of agony for him . <P>I cannot imagine, on top of everything else, facing others in my life knowing they had this knowledge.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> As you know, I still struggle with this daily as well. So I don't have alot of advice to give here. You are blessed to have an H who is able to forgive. That I know.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So do I...and maybe we can figure out the rest as we go along, huh? ((((((((((TS))))))))<P><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P>

Francis,<BR>your H's decision to tell only select people was very wise of him. My ex-H, within about a two week period following my confession, told all his friends, family, and even some co-workers. Over 20 people total. Not only did he tell them I had cheated, but he also told them very personal things about my life that I had only told him and maybe one or two others in my whole life. When I told him how much this hurt me, he only said "I have nothing to be ashamed of". No apologies, nothing. This was part of the humiliation and cruelty he served up to me. I truly regret ever marrying him or trusting him. <P>Your H seems to be a very thoughtful person who obviously loves you very much.

The student - When I initially found out about my W's relationship I wanted everyone to know, just like your husband did. For me it was because I have always lived hearing how men were "Dogs" and "No-Good" and it was devastating to find out that the one person in the world that you loved and trusted the most had done this to you and that now that the marriage was over, everybody was going to say "it was the man's fault, he was probably out cheating on his poor, loving devoted wife" A part of me wanted to let everybody know that it wasn't me that broke the bonds of marriage, it was her. I ended up telling just a few of my closest friends, people that I knew wouldn't tell anyone else. I didn't tell any of my family members because once I decided to try to salvage my marriage, I didn't want anyone in my family to look at her or treat her differently, as my family loves her. The friends that I told was for the purpose of either having to find a release for all the pain that I was going through or seeking advice on how to cope.

I just read your post and I want you to know that I know exactly how you feel....I am punishing myself daily for the same thing..I want desperately to forgive myself and go on, I just don't know how to do it yet. If it helps at all, you are not alone.<BR>Will be praying for you too!

FA,<BR>I understand your pain, and you did need to talk to someone. The fact is, you wanted to hurt your wife in return. You need to own that, not make excuses like "she hurt me so I did this and that". I'm sorry to be so blunt, but we sexual betrayers here are always reminded of how we need to take responsibility for our actions. It works both ways, and there is more than one way to be betrayed.

Francis,<P>There are two books I recommend you read to help you through this:<P>"Forgive and Forget" by Lewis B. Smedes and <BR>"How Good Do We Have To Be?" by Harold Kushner.<P>I suggest you read/study them multiple times. My wife and I find them to be very beneficial in helping us forgive ourselves and each other.

The Student - you are right, I DID want to hurt my wife back, but I am past that now, my post was talking about how I initially felt. My W and I did go and talk to a counselor, so I no longer feel the way that I did initially. But understand this.......there is no pain on this earth, maybe except losing a child, that can compare to the pain that your spouse betraying you can inflict upon a person, NONE!! The statement that you put in quotations were not words that I put in my post, it sounds more like the words that you feel that your spouse spoke, but they were not mine, therefore that was not my excuse, and I stated in my post, I didn't go around telling everybody, just those that I felt that I could trust and help me deal with what I had just discovered. If I "really" wanted to do what you put in quotations, everybody in my family as well as hers would know about what happened........I didn't do that, nor do I plan on doing that. It also sounds like you are making excuses for your behavior..."It works both ways, and there is more than one way to be betrayed." I have accepted my part in creating an atmosphere that would lead to an adulterous relationship, but again, as has been posted elsewhere on this site, there is no justification for having an affair.....NONE!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>...But understand this.......there is no pain on this earth, maybe except losing a child, that can compare to the pain that your spouse betraying you can inflict upon a person, NONE!! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which is why it is sooooo incredibly difficult to forgive ourselves...knowing we caused that kind of pain!<P><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis<P>