Doug:<P>I take it your response to me about hearing from the Holy Spirit was meant to be 'sarcastic'.<P>Anyway, if it was so meant...I choose to overlook whatever you meant.<P>The greatest privilege we, as New Testament Believers have is to hear from and be led by the Holy Spirit. I am not saying we do not need brothers/sisters in Christ...but any counsel or wisdom we receive should only confirm in our hearts what the Holy Spirit has already shown us.<P>I used to lean on people and look to people as though they were my 'guru' and depended on them to hear from God for me...<P>Anyway....if you response to me was given with a 'barb' in it....I excuse your lack of spiritual perception and/or immaturity which ever the case may be.<P>K<P>I really don't know you and you don't know me. I Corinthians says "who knows the spirit of a man except the man's own spirit?"<P>You don't know me and have no idea of my relationship with the Lord. My initial response to your reply that "I haven't opened my heart up to the Holy Spirit" made me want to defend/prove myself. However, like Doug's response...I am going to excuse yours.<P>I do not know what you meant by "I love you too" in your post to me but if you are my sister (or brother) in Christ, I don't know your gender, then I love you too.<P>If you were just being sarcastic, then I will choose to overlook that.<P>Also, I don't understand what you mean by we have had our differences before as I do not remember posting directly to you...please refresh my memory.<P>The bottom line is, I know who I am in Jesus and I also know who I am without Him! He is my very life.<P>I bless you K<P>and Doug......I bless you too!<P>[censored] from Texas

No sarcasm at all [censored].<P>At one point a while back, you posted that infidelity was always the man's fault in a relationship. I took exception to that, and I believe that you said that the Holy Spirit was speaking through you concerning that. I asked if perhaps you weren't being decieved by the devil instead...<P>It was a long time ago (I couldn't find it with the search---so longer than that).<P>My concern about your post was that there was little constructive about it---it seemed instead to be a religious "venting" of sorts. For example, you're upset about people who "rigerously follow" Harley's teachings. Why does that upset you? Are there principles that you find unsound? If so, elaborate on them. Certainly many Christians follow the words of prophets and saints (and the Pope, if you're Catholic). None of these entites are God, but yet God does speak through them (in my opinion).<P>I'll happily share with you the fact that my wife's affair brought me much closer to my religion. That Jesus went from a "concept" to a real, personal God. One who I could count on. And in doing so, I've tried my best to learn and emulate his teachings, and live my life "as if". It's truly God's Grace that such goodness can come from bad situations.<P>God bless you too, [censored]. And I was very sorry to see that your marriage wasn't reconciled.

K<P>I want to clear up something I said that you obviously misunderstood in a previous post months ago.<P>I never said if a woman is involved in infidelity it is always the man's fault, what I said and still believe is:<P>When a marriage fails or is in trouble, 99% of the time it is the man's fault! God placed the man as head of his home/wife but not to abuse that power.<P>I have scriptural reasons for believing this:<BR>When Adam/Eve fell in the garden, it is recorded that "the woman was deceived and not the man". In other words, the woman 'blew it'.<P>However, when God came down in the garden, He didn't call out "Eve, where are you?" No..He called "Adam...where are you?" In other words He called the man into accountability even tho' the woman blew it.<P>No, a man can not stop his wife from going out and having an illicit affair...however; I had to learn the hard way...at the expense of my marriage that God intends a man to love his wife as Christ loved the church.<P>I am also now convinced that if a man truly and openly loves his wife, adores, honors, respects, cherishes, protects, provides for and blesses.....she would worship at his feet.<P>However, I am sure there are some exceptions so I just say in the majority of the cases when a marriage fails or is in trouble..the blame needs to be laid at the man's feet!<P>Change must always come from the head!<P>Anyway, I think you misunderstood me and I hope this clears that up.<P>The greatest sign of spiritual maturity is when we, as men can take full responsibility for our actions and not place the blame elsewhere.<P>This honors God and warms His heart when He sees men, broken and weeping, crying out to Him and asking Him to make them better husbands and fathers.<P>Anyway...I wish you well wherever you are at with the Lord or in your marriage....<P>I honestly never knew what gender you were and now I do......so I am speaking 'man to man'<P>blessings....<P>[censored] from Texas

Ahhh, you're much better at remembering your quotes...<P>I still "vehemently" disagree. Although you are certainly responsible for neglecting your wife and marriage (just as I was for mine), the "blame" is not all yours (or mine). Our wives share in that blame.<P>I would interpret the Eden passage as such: while the woman "blew it", God called to Adam because Adam was charged with the responsibility. Was Adam to blame?? Yes. Did he suffer? Yes. But so did Eve---she was never held blameless by God.<P>It shows growth and maturity to not step away from the "blame" that you and I felt for the marriage; but to react in a positive way for the benefit of the marriage. But your wife is not "blameless" or innocent in this, and it's not pleasing to God that she chose to react in the manner that she did.<P>I was more fortunate. We recovered our marriage---through a lot of pain---but it's much stronger than we could have ever dreamed!<P>God bless.

[censored]:<P>OK. So my remarks DID have a barb in them. But you don't have to excuse me. I have much more 'spiritual perception' than you perceive. As for being 'immature'... well, sometimes, I guess! <P>I DO believe that the the God's Holy Spirit 'talks' to us. But more often than not, I think He does it through His Godly servants. True, they are weak. True, they are fallible. But they can also be great teachers of a subject very difficult to understand.<P>If a 'direct link' to the Holy Spirit were all that was neccessary to know God, then why Billy Graham? Why the Apostles? Why Paul?<P>I, for one, thank God for using weak, flawed, clay-footed men and women to teach me about Himself.

Doug,<P>Amen, Bro. I like those human messengers too.<P>*How ya doin'?* Dunc & I think about you a lot. We miss the Dougly Wit . Except for your rare cameo appearances. You doing ok? We're still around in email-land - give a yell if you lost our addy!<P>Suse

K<P>Learning to disagree without becoming disagreeable isn't a sign of compromise, but rather a sign of maturity.<P>Therefore, we can agree to disagree.<P>You do make a good point concerning the woman in that she has to deal with herself and face her own issues.<P>It brought healing to me when I quit beating myself up for my failures as a husband and finally accepted the Father's love and forgiveness.<P>Yes...it does take two to 'make or break' a marriage...<P>Anyway....God knows my heart and He knows your heart as well.<P>I appreciate your thoughts about my marriage but to be honest, after 4 years of separation, I honestly believe the Lord released me from the marriage because He didn't want me to hurt any longer.<P>I never dreamed this would happen, but after 3 years and 10 months of believing for restoration and being faithful to my wife, I just gave up.<P>I no longer hurt or have any feelings for my wife except as someone I used to know and the mother of our 4 beautiful children.<P>Anyway....God knows my heart.<P>Blessings to you and your wife and I rejoice with you both that you have been able to come back together for now you will have a strength and bond that you never had before.<P>[censored] from Texas

Doug<P>I am not going to argue with you or 'split hairs' theologically concerning the Holy Spirit's role but what about the verse in <BR>I John (not sure which chapter) which states:<P>"but the anointing that is within you shall <BR>teach you so that you have no need to be taught" (one translation says "so that you have no need that men should teach you").<P>Men can not teach us anything...only the Holy Spirit can! However, we do agree on the fact that He does use human vessels.<P>My whole bone of contention was with people that were too lazy or slothful to try and hear from the Holy Spirit themselves and continually sought out answers from others.<P>I know it is recorded that 'in a multitude of counselors there is wisdom' but there is a flip side to that verse as well. That 'in a multitude of counselors there could be confusion' because everyone has a different slant/opinion of what you/I should do.<P>Just learn to keep your eyes focused on Jesus and remember Jesus Himself states: "When He, the spirit of truth shall come, He shall lead/guide you into all truth"<P>If you want to respond back to me with another argument.....don't waste your time because I won't answer.<P>If you are scripturally 'born-again' then you are my brother in Christ and I love you as my brother! If we have differences...then so be it. Remember as Paul wrote in I Cor 13...<BR>"Now we see through a glass darkly...now we only see in part"<P>Anyway......I bless you in Jesus' Name<P>[censored] from Texas<p>[This message has been edited by [censored] (edited January 14, 2000).]

[censored],<BR>I am sorry it didn't work out that your marriage could be salvaged fo now. Provided she hasn't remarried there still may be hope. I can understand the pain that you went through and probably are still feeling though to a less degree.<P>Didn't know if you were still around.<P>Mondo Hug!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><P>

Suse:<P>Hi! Thanks for asking. Yeah, I'm doin' mostly OK, I guess. (Is that a committed, definitive answer, or what?) I'll drop you guys an email sometime soon.<P>[censored]:<P>I'm not trying to be argumentative, just state my own take on things. (OK, so my first post was a little cynical. Sorry, it seems to come easier lately.) IMHO, men and women can and do teach us a lot. And the Holy Spirit helps us to separate the wheat from the chaff, the good from the bad, the truths inspired by God from the lies invented by Satan. And Satan sure is adept at making his lies sound true, eh?<P>Anyway, there's no reason for us to be at odds. Peace.