*for the bottom line, skip down 3 replies to my "timeline"<P>If you don’t know me this will confuse the heck out of you. If you do know my whole story this may still confuse you! If you know me of old, I’d especially like your input.<P><BR>Cast of Characters:<BR>H <BR>(my husband)<BR>“Mr. W.” and “Mrs. W” <BR>(mutual friends of mine and H's)<BR>"Elaine"<BR> (“Mrs. W’s” sister, H's co-worker, office gossip)<BR>“First OW” <BR>(the co-worker that H had a brief affair with 5 years ago)<BR>“Lady D” <BR>(a co-worker of H’s that I've always suspected had a mutual attraction with H and whom I've even asked detailed questions regarding their relationship)<BR>OM (The man with whom I had a lengthy, and rather entangled affair<BR>“S” (The child I had from the affair I had with OM)<P> “Mr. W.” and “Mrs. W.” have been through some difficult times in the last few years. Part of the troubles stemmed from “Mrs. W’s” brief affair with a co-worker. Anyway, about a year ago, “Mr. W.” told H and I about “Mrs. W’s” affair, but I've not spoken to “Mrs. W.” about it at all because they were living on the opposite coast. <P>“Mrs. “W’s” sister, lets call her "Elaine" (because she is exactly like Elaine on Alley McBiel) works with H. Elaine, just like the Alley character, is the office gossip. I tell you this because the information I was made aware of came from X (unidentified source) to Elaine, to “Mrs. W.”, to me.<P>So, here it is . . .<BR>During “Mr. W.” and “Mrs. W’s” visit, “Mrs. W.” and I had about 15 minutes alone in which we engaged in a discussion about our marriages. “Mrs. W.” DID NOT know about my affair with OM, or H's affair with “first OW”. “Mrs. W.” shared that she was embarrassed about “Mr. W.” telling us about her affair and she hoped we'd still love her. At that point I said, "“Mrs. W.”, we do love you. We have been where you and “Mr. W.” are and we know that good people make mistakes." To which she immediately replied, "was it “H” and “Lady D”"?<P>Mind you, “Mrs. W.” has been on the opposite coast from me for the last three years, she has never even met “Lady D”, and, up until this discussion, neither H nor I, nor “Mr. W.” had informed her of our infidelity issues. This "“Lady D”" comment came completely out of the blue. I was completely taken by this comment and my mouth hit the floor. She then said, "oh, no! Did I just tell you something you didn't know?" I instantly knew that Elaine had told her something, but apparently, it was more than just a passing comment. How would “Mrs. W.” seem so sure that H is the one who cheated, and that it was with “Lady D”? Unless of course, there were several, serious conversations between “Mrs. W.” and Elaine, AND there were some "facts" to support Elaine's story. Right?<P>I asked why “Mrs. W.” assumed it was “Lady D” and she said, "Elaine told me that something was going on between them. I believed it because she said X (a person “Mrs. W.” didn't know) told Elaine and it merely confirmed what Elaine (and the rest of the office) suspected in the first place. I then told “Mrs. W.” that I had suspected H and “Lady D” were involved for about 4 years. In fact, in 1996 (before I ever met my OM) I asked H, point blank, if he and “Lady D” were involved. I asked if he was attracted to her, what their friendship was like, etc. At that time he adamantly denied any feelings or involvement whatsoever. Nevertheless, I've always been suspicious. So, “Mrs. W’s” comment reawakened my suspicions and nearly confirmed them. However the “grapevine” and gossip were enough to keep me from feeling totally confirmed.<P>As soon as “Mrs. W.” said this to me I knew that I was going to confront H. I didn't exactly know how and I knew I needed more information from “Mrs. W.” So, yesterday I called her and got the scoop, and then I confronted H with it. Basically, based on what “Mrs. W.” told me, this is what I learned and what I told H.<P>According to Elaine, most of the office suspects H and “Lady D” are having an affair. They are very chummy with each other, they flirt, are friendly, they are very physical, and at the conferences (where much alcohol is consumed) they dance very suggestively and have been known to look and act like a couple and disappear together. I asked H what would lead his co-workers to think this, what has gone on between them, and how can I reconcile my suspicions.<BR>______________________________<BR>I confronted H on the way to our therapy session (yes, it is our 3rd, and after I threatened to leave him if he did not join, he reluctantly complied) <BR> Here is H's reply:<P>“Lady D” and I are very close. We have spent quite a bit of time together over the years, talking, working together, going out to lunch or out for a beer after work, etc. When I was working in her area I'd go out of my way to stop by the office so I could talk to her. At staff meetings I make every effort to sit near her so we can talk. I didn't want to tell you I was spending so much time with her because I didn't want to hurt you. <P>“Lady D” and I have had many extensive talks, over the past 4 years, about our spouses, our dissatisfaction about our marriages, and our attraction for each other. We even agreed that our co-workers probably think there is something going on between us. In the last year I have shared everything with her about you, OM, and “S”. She has been the only person I've spoken to about any of this and she has been very supportive of me, and she has been a source of comfort and friendship. <P>About 3 years ago she and I were very attracted to each other and things almost got carried away. We discussed that we must be very careful. Before that, and since then, we have been very close, and yes, at the conferences we have spent a great deal of social time together, we danced very much, and very close. We actually said to each other that we need to not do that anymore. Part of the reason I took the recent relocation is because I didn't want to be so close to “Lady D”. But I still talk to her whenever possible, we are still very close. <BR>________________________<P>By the way, H learned of my affair and that “S” (our son) is OM’s child less, than one year ago. The first conference where they were so chummy was in 1997. The second conference (1998) I was home and very sick. “S” was just one-day home from the hospital after his 2-week stay, and I was just 2 weeks postpartum. While H was off "dirty dancing" I was home with a sick child, and so sick myself that my mother had to take off work and take care of me. H refused to stay home with us. I was physically unable to stand while he was dirty dancing. The second conference (1999) where H also admits to being "attracted" to “Lady D”, was this last June, and after he knew about OM and “S”. So, apparently, this "attraction" happened while I was pregnant and during that first year of “S's” life. Also during that time H was gone (work, v-ball, hockey, golf) nearly every night of the week. It was so bad that I kept a calendar of where he was and how late he was out every night. He left every day at 6:30Am. At least 4 nights a week he didn't return until after 10PM (often not until 1am). And he was never home before 8. I thought he was playing sports.<BR>____________________________<BR>I asked a lot of questions and here is what I learned<BR>H claims that other than a peck on the cheek, and some dirty dancing, there has been no sexual contact between them.<P>He claims he no longer has “those feelings” for her, but some of what he said he seemed to contradict that statement.<P>He said he takes steps to avoid being in a "dangerous" situation with her because they are both aware of the attraction.<BR>_________________________________________<BR>So, I don't know what to think or what to believe. What do you think?<P><BR> <P>[This message has been edited by facing choices (edited January 14, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by facing choices (edited January 17, 2000).]

Oh boy! <BR>FC, I have been following your "story" and<BR>it seems you may have stumbled upon a<BR>"lost chapter", one involving your H and "Lady D". Your H may or may not be calling the kettle black as they say. At the very least, he is involved in a VERY inappropriate relationship with "Lady D". They should NOT be confiding in one another regarding the states of their marriages!. You have been through SOOOO much. I don't want to say your H has probably been cheating too. Some might say "where there's smoke, there's fire", let's just say from what you wrote here, this is a mighty suspicious smoke signal. Only he and "Lady D" know for sure. I'm so sorry for you. Keep us posted and take care!<P>------------------<BR>For I know the thoughts I think<BR>toward you, saith the Lord,<BR>thoughts of peace, not of evil,<BR>to give you an expected end.<BR>Jeremiah 29:11<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Kyra (edited January 14, 2000).]

Facing Choices,<P>First, yes I do remember your story. You are the reason I made my first post; it was to you. Your story and situation has been in my mind since you first posted.<P> I am hoping that since your deadline has passed that you have decided to work on your marriage. I know that sounds odd at this point, but I still think about you.<P>First, let me answer with my gut feelings. Your H is telling the truth. After all that you two have been through, it is hard to imagine that he is not. Having said that I would say it was at least boardering on an emotional affair.<P>Next, let's see if I got this straight. The real attraction came after you had told H about the S. They had been seeing a lot of each other the year or so before. If I recall correctly that was the period of time you were deeply involved with your OM right? I would guess that you were not meeting his needs any better that he was meeting yours.<P>I am not trying to sound flippant here FC. What I am trying to say is that your marriage was an emotional mess. Does any of this really surprise you? Knowing how you felt about him during and after the affair and the fact that he had an affair earlier? <P>I guess before you lay a real guilt trip on your H about not being there for you during and shortly after your delivery, please remember your state of mind before and after the delivery and even the pregnancy. Why do I say this?<P>You need some perspective. I am not blaming you FC. It just seems that after everything that has happened a little forgiveness on both of your parts seems warrented. <P>FC there is more that I might say but you haven't mentioned how you two are doing. I sincerely hope that things have improved since the last post back in Sept/Oct.<P>FC, I think it is good that you have addressed this issue with your H. I think it is good that you realize that gossip is not the basis for decisions. Finally, I think it is good that your H answered your questions. It sounds to me as if he was honest.<P>FC I read a post you made to someone in early Dec. I think. I was struck by it because it seemed that much of your anger had slipped away. It was a very good answer by the way.<P>I hope that your anger has slipped away. I hope that at sometime my answers will help. I don't know if this one did. Once again your H's answer seems to ring true to me.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P>

Thank you ever so much Kara. I don’t know what to think. I have equal agreement with both you and JL. Yes, where there is smoke there is usually fire. BUT, after all I’ve said to H, think he would be honest with me. But then again, what reason does he have to confess? It would only make matters worse for us.<P>Thank you for the reply JL. I most certainly appreciate it! Here’s a time line that might help, JL<P>1991: Marriage<P>Spring 1995: H’s first affair with OW1<P>Summer:1996: H's attraction to OW2 began<P>Fall 1996: I asked H about his relationship with OW2 and he denied any attraction what-so-ever (now I know he was lying).<P>Winter 1996: H and OW2 admit their mutual attraction (no idea if it went beyond that at that time. H says "No, it didn't.")<P>Jan 1997: H tells me he no longer loves me and thinks our marriage is over. I fight to convince him otherwise.<P>Jan 1997: I met OM<P>June 1997: First conference where H admits to "dirty dancing" w/ OW2. (no idea if it went beyond that before or after. H says "no, it didn't." I have my doubts.)<P>Jan 1997-Dec 1997: My affair with OM in which time we saw each other almost every day when H was “working late and playing sports.” The logistics of the affair with OM was easy because H was gone 13+ hours every day. Maybe he was involved with OW2, maybe he wasn’t. I don't know.<P>June 1998: Delivery of first child, "S".<P>June 1998: Second conference - H admits more "dirty dancing" and flirting and getting drunk with OW2.<P>Dec 1998: I told H about OM<P>Feb 1999: I told H that "S" is OM's child.<P>*At some point, and I don't know when, H told OW2 everything about my affair and the baby.<P>March 1999: H changes jobs<P>May 1999: I told OM about his son and told H that I told OM<P>June 1999: Third Dirty dancing conference, more flirting and drunkeness.<P>Dec 1999: H RELUCTANTLY agrees to counseling after I tell him I'll leave him if he won't. Prior to this he absolutely refused.<P>Jan 2000: H admits to “whatever” about OW2<BR>AFTER I heard all about it from a freind (see first posting above).<P>So, my affair lasted Jan 1997 – Dec 1997 (in person) and continued until July 1999 (off and on, in letters and phone calls and 2 (3?) visits.<P>H’s relationship with OW2 began in the summer of 1996 and, as far as I know, they still are, as he said, “very close.” (whatever that means)<P><p>[This message has been edited by facing choices (edited January 17, 2000).]

FC,<BR>Just Learning may have the right idea. You and H have been through so much, why lie?<BR>Don't you wish we could all say to our SO's,<BR>"Look I screwed up, you screwed up, what's past is past, let's erase the slate and<BR>start fresh". If it were ONLY that easy! I just hate to see this<BR>new revelation become a major setback for you. I really do!

this must be really hard. if i were you, i'd want to rant and rave and scream, but not feel "allowed" to, because of my own situation.<BR>sorry i can't help you more, but aren't you glad you have this place to help you through this?<BR>glad to have you back...well, sort of

I remember your story and have posted to you. I have wondered how you and your H and son were doing.<P>OK...a few have said. Why lie? Good point. So there is nothing you see in the situation or your H's personality that would to give him a good reason to lie.<P>One step further. If there isn't a good reason to lie...what could be his motivation to have an affair AND stay in the marriage?<P>Not to put you down, FC, I'm sure your H married you for a reason. However, with your son and the OM and all your difficulties, why would your H tough it out if there was another woman? It seems to me that he would be only to happy to leave the marriage....and you would have gladly let him....and he must have known that.<P>So what would his motivation be? As I recall he wasn't deeply religious. You are, but were questioning your faith. Would there be any compelling reason to stay in the marriage when it was at its worst?<P>If you can not come up with anything, then I'd be inclined to believe your H. Maybe she made him feel good, was someone to confide in that maybe encouraged him rather than made him feel crazy for working things out. Who knows?<P>If you can identify a need she met that wasn't necessarily sexual and can not come up with motive, I would believe him.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FC,<BR>Given what you posted and H's love for you and S makes me think that he may have gone further than what he is admitting particularly since he continued contact knowing the attraction. The attraction is always what leads to the dastardly deed. <P>When I found my self in such situations, I stopped because it was inappropriate. It is easy when you are very vulnerable. I have been that way lately.<P>Good to hear from you. It sounds like you guys are on your way to recovery.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><P>

Hi FC!<P>What a suprise to see your name come up. I've been thinking about you and wondering how things were going. I read your post, and I don't know what to say right now. I'll think about it and write to you on Monday (out of time right now). Just wanted to say Hi.<P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved. <P><BR>

Facing Choices,<P>I personally like FHL's response. I, like her, cannot see why your H would be around given all that has happened if the OW#2 was something much more than a friend. You provided him with the perfect exit and you wanted him to take it.<P>Has anything really changed? Are you still in contact with OM? Have you gone through withdrawl completely this time? I sure hope so.<P>FC let us know where you are in the mess. You know the people here will gladly help or at least try if you will let them.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL

Just wanted to tell ya'all that I have lots to say in regard to your posts! I just haven't had the time yet to sit down and write (ooo it makes me so crazy to not be able to reply!). I also have much I want to say on yours (and others) posts here. You'll be hearing from me later today when "S" takes a nap. <BR>Thank you very much for your thoughts and your prayers! <BR>Love,<BR>FC<P>PS I have hives. Anyone know a cause or cure?

FC,<BR>I wasn't help much to you on this topic; but, perhaps I can be regarding your hives.<BR>Hives can be caused by several things.<BR>Drug/food allergy, bug bite and EMOTIONAL STRESS(wouldn't have any of that would you? ) Anyway, you can try an over the counter antihistamine and if the itching is really bad, your doctor can prescribe something stronger. You might try a topical corticosteroid ointment too. Hope this helps

FC, <P>I'm with most of the others here. I think if you and your H have made your way through anything it's being honest with one another. Sure, you could have used more openness from him, but maybe if he was open at that time you would have given him the boot and he knows it.<P>Deep down, I think you both care for one another and you both want your marriage to work. There are just so many tangled webs that have been woven, it's difficult to find your way through. <P>I would believe what he told you. I'm not sure how much that helps. He is definitely involved in an emotional affair, which is a night mare in it's own right. As you know, the emotional aspect of an affair is perhaps the toughest part to break. <P>Let us know how you think you and your H are doing. Also, tell us if the memories of the OM are fading or are they just as vivid. <P>God bless you.<P>P.S. Thanks for your kind words in my post. I'm pulling for you too my friend. <P>SHA

Hey, are you guys glad to have me back because you can look at me and say, “God, at least we aren’t as messed up as FC?” Just kidding. Trying to keep my sense of humor here. If I don’t laugh, I’ll just start to cry, and we’re out of tissue right now. Oh, and Kyra, Benadryl did the trick!<P>Ha, finally, a moment to think and write, instead of simply feeling. First and foremost, <BR>Thank y6ou very much for your kind, honest and supportive replies. All that has been offered here has proven to be very helpful in my thinking and feeling process.<P>In general, I’m taking this quite well (IMHO). I’ve not blown my top. I’ve not conducted a grand inquisition. I’ve not even brought it up for 4 days since H and I had our initial discussion. I’m not sure how I feel and I guess I’m just processing it all. I think I’m a bit withdrawn from H over it. I really don’t want to have much to do with him right now. Ironically, the morning of day I learned of this “relationship” was the first time in months I told H that I loved him. Now, if that isn’t one step forward, 10 steps back, I don’t know what is! However, compared to my reaction when I learned of OW1, I’m doing comparatively well. The first time I ripped up our marriage license, threatened to leave him, cussed him out, committed acts of violence to inadament (sp?) objects, and slept in the other room for 2 months. This time, however, he has not owned up to anything physical. I guess I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. My gut tells me he did, in fact, have some kind of physical relationship with OW2. At the very LEAST, he engaged (or maybe still is engaging) in an emotional affair that was clearly inappropriate. Some may say I have no room to point fingers after what I did. My feeling is that I am dealing with what was put in my lap. Both H and I have wronged the other.<P>As for my contact with OM, it is minimal. Occasionally I get a letter from him telling me that he longs to know and love his son. It really breaks my heart. We have not seen each other since May. He almost came for a visit (to see S) in December, but together we decided that was not wise. My feelings for him have not changed (nor have his for me), and it would only bring hurt to OM, H, and me if I see OM. I’ve got a marriage to deal with and I can’t let my feelings for OM cloud my judgement. I will admit that when I learned about LadyD I was very tempted to run to OM, but I didn’t. I’m trying very hard to stay focused on H and my marriage, and not do anything STUPID!<P>JL, I had no idea I was the reason for your first post. I thank you, very deeply, for your words, your thoughts, and your concerns. I just wish I could, in some small way, return the kindness and help that you have bestowed upon me. <P>Many of you have offered a very legitimate position. <BR>Why would he lie at this point?<BR>JL, Kyra, FHL, SHA, have articulated a great point in your posts. “Why would he lie?” you ask. And I have to say; my first reaction was in agreement with your point. After he already owned up to the first affair (5 years ago), and after NOT leaving me when I cheated on him, AND after learning about and accepting my child by OM, why the heck would he lie? I’ve had this thought time and again. Why would he lie? How could he possibly out do my heinous crime? Geez, he could marry his own mother and still look like a gem compared to me. Really, this is a very serious argument in the “no he didn’t have a physical relationship with Lady D” sided of my mind.<P>H’s relationship (to whatever extent) with OW2 does not come as a surprise at all. JL, I think you asked about that. Perhaps that is why I am taking it so calmly. It isn’t a shock, like the first one was. It is merely a confirmation at this point. In fact, as I said before, I suspected it long before my own affair. I even thought he might have been having an affair while I was. Our marriage was a complete mess! The only reason I suspected he wasn’t having an affair was because I believed him when he said he was “at work” or “playing sports.” I thought I knew where he was at all times. Apparently, I didn’t. And, as for the forgiveness. . . .funny you should say that, JL because I would totally forgive him if he had a physical relationship. I even forgive him for the emotional affair, and he hasn’t even asked for forgiveness. I understand how lonely and empty he felt. I was there too, for a very long time. I regret not meeting his needs. I know why he turned to her. I can forgive him for that 100 times. BUT, I don’t know if I can continue the marriage if he crossed the line and the affair became physical.. For the first affair, shame on him. For the second, and for trusting again, well, shame on me. How many affairs does a marriage withstand before we just lay down and admit that we’re broken beyond repair? Oh, and I’m not angry anymore about H not being there for me or for his affair(s). I’m just very, very hurt; and very, very sad.<P>KYRA<BR>Indeed, it does feel like a “lost chapter.” Gosh, what a perfect term. Really, the revelation of OW2 puts everything in a different perspective and it answers lots of questions for me. I now know why he was gone so much. I know why he didn’t seem to care that I was gone so much. Maybe I even know why he didn’t seem to care to work on things after I told him about my affair. Then again, the OW2 thing has brought up lots of questions – as many, or more, than it has answered. <BR>As you stated, it is, at the very least, an inappropriate relationship. I just wish H would see it as that. He does not seem to have any intentions of ending the “friendship.” He sees no sin in telling her about the problems in our marriage or his complaints about me. He is glad to have had a friend. In most respects I am glad he has had a friend in this horrible time. BUT, it should not have been a woman he was attracted to! I believe that this smoke I’m smelling, is either a) a true fire, b) a fire about to erupt, or c) the dying embers of a fire. Maybe a combination of the three.<P>JL, you also asked about my deadline (great memory BTW):<BR>Well, in December, after a year of begging him, H made the effort to begin therapy with me. So I opted to stay. However, as you can tell, much is coming up in therapy that leaves me feeling unsure. And this OW2 thing is just the beginning of it. In addition to this “blow” there are also 2, anger induced, holes in my livingroom wall. After therapy the week before last, H got so angry at me that he shouted, “you want to know how I feel FC? Wack! Wack! That’s how I feel.” (He hit the wall, not me). So, the deadline has passed, we are in therapy, and from here it is one-day-at-a-time as they say.<P>LOVEWASBLIND<BR>Yes, I do feel as if H is denying me the space to rant and rave. He flat out said that after I cheated I lost the right to be angry over his “friendship” with LadyD. Actually, I don’t want to rant, I just want to tell him how much this has hurt me and set us back in our recovery process. I want him to know that I don’t trust or believe him. But he feels like he is the one who gets to be hurt and angry and I have to just live with it. I wonder if he is trying to hurt me with this? I wonder if he thought he was leveling the playing field <P>PROFG<BR>You hit the nail right on the head! It is the vulnerability that H has that really worries me. All of the right ingredients are there for an affair. Couple that vulnerability with the immense pain caused by my affair and the baby, and I think it is a recipe for an affair!<P> So, here is my thinking about the situation (and also a really long answer to FHL’s last reply)<P>Do I think he had an affair with OW2? <BR>Yes, I do. I really want to believe that he didn’t, though. I want to believe he is telling me the truth and that it was just emotional. I don’t want to deal with ANOTHER affair in our marriage. I’m just sick of this issue. I want to trust him. I want to have faith in him. I hope he didn’t have a physical affair. Yet, I think he did.<P>Looking objectively at this situation, I see nothing but red, hot, flaming arrows pointing to an affair. Here are what I see as the signs (this is all stuff he has admitted to, BTW):<BR>A previous affair with OW1<BR>A close friendship with OW2 (a very attractive woman who is also disgruntled in her own marriage)<BR>A lot of time spent alone together at work and after hours<BR>A discussion in which H and OW2 said, “ I bet everyone in the office thinks we are having an affair.”<BR>H stated he was not surprised that his co-workers suspected an affair.<BR>Conscious effort on their part to talk, hug, and spend time together when ever they were in the office together.<BR>Just the two of them working in an off-site office (for a year, but they’ve both since been promoted in different areas of the company)<BR>After hours drinks<BR>Mutually expressed attraction and desire<BR>3 conferences in which they both attended, had hotel rooms, dirty danced, and got very drunk<BR>And H’s claim that he took a job relocation to be away from a situation that was likely to explode with OW2.<P>Couple all of that with:<BR>I didn’t love H and therefore didn’t meet his needs very well. <BR>I was away having an affair, then very occupied with baby.<BR>The unspeakable pain and devastation when I told H of my affair and the baby.<P>In my mind that adds up to a very high probability of infidelity. <P><BR>Why would he lie?<BR>Well, I think he would lie because (I’m speculating on his thinking here)<BR>1) I believe that H fears I’d leave him if he admitted to an affair. Better to lie than to have me leave him. I don’t believe that all affairs are entered into with the intention of leaving the spouse. I also don’t believe that they are necessarily maintained or that they evolve with that desire. I believe, if H had an affair with LadyD, that it was not an exit affair. I do NOT think he wants a divorce. I don’t think he wants to leave me. I don’t think he wants me to leave him. I DO think he needed someone and something. I felt that way about his first affair. I DO NOT think he wants out of the marriage; I DO think he wants to have something more, and in this case, that was an affair.<P>2) I also believe he still wants to have OW2 in his life. If he admitted to a physical affair, he knows I’d demand that he never see or speak to her again. If there was nothing physical, I believe he thinks it is seen as “no big deal.”<P>3) Telling the truth (if he did have the physical affair) would only make matters worse! Our marriage is hanging from such a thin thread right now, and if he admits to the affair then that is going to make matters for us WAY worse! He is totally nonconfrontational! He will do anything to avoid causing problems, and that includes lie. I think he might want to get through my affair first and then admit to his own.<P>4) If he admits to a physical affair, then he is as “guilty” as I am. He might feel as if he’d have to give up being angry at me because he did the same thing! (I don’t agree, BTW)<P>5) If he admitted a physical affair, and I left him, he would loose too much! (his marriage, his child, his wife, his pride). From the outside, he would be as much the “bad guy” as I am.<P>6) Bottom line is this . . .I think it is worth it to him to lie (and keep the illusion of a good life), than it is to tell the truth and risk loosing it all.<P>7) The way I see it, the real question is . . . .why would he tell the truth? He has absolutely nothing to gain by telling the truth. <P>Oh, and what really bothers me is that this is the SECOND time that I have “found out” about another woman. In both cases, I suspected and confronted. The first time I basically caught him. The second time someone made information known to me that clearly pined him as doing something “wrong” with LadyD. Neither time involved a “confession” on his part. Both times he got caught. That fact does little to paint him as a person who feels the need to confess or tell the truth unless really pushed. Okay, I’m getting mad. I’ve got to send this reply off to you.<P>Thanks for being there for me!<BR>Love to you all!<BR>FC<P><BR>

Just remember, I'm in retirement---I should be fishing. <P>FC, let me give you the spin on this, from my view:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the morning of day I learned of this “relationship” was the first time in months I told H that I loved him<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To me this is the major thing you should focus on. You finally got enough "feelings" back to tell your husband that you loved him. That shows more progress to me than anything else.<P>Even through your affair. And his first one. And the baby. And the fact that you still are in contact with the OM (he's more damn addictive than cigarettes, for God's sake!!). Through him remodeling your living room wall. You love him.<P>I hope that your counselor will effectively work with you both to get you back on track. When you said you "loved" your husband a couple weeks ago, what caused that? Why??? What has he been doing to help foster that love?? You've got to encourage him to do more of the same.<P>If I were counseling you two, I'd want you to acknowledge your failures at meeting your husband's needs, and I would want you to emphatically state that you want to start meeting them TODAY. That you want to demonstrate to him that you do love him. Even though you suspect that he had an affair with this woman, you realize that your marriage was vulnerable to it. <P>But---you don't want to live in a vulnerable marriage anymore... You want to affair-proof the marriage from both spouse's perspectives.<P>This means learning to live life through the "Four Rules". Including honesty. You should encourage your husband to be honest with you---even if it puts some holes in the wall (I would have pointed at one of those holes and asked him if he thought it was a lovebuster, or just a "wall-buster"...). He needs to have something to gain by his honesty. He needs to have you react in a way that shows that you love him, and want the marriage to work. Regardless. Divorce is not an option.<P>It'll also mean that you work hard at the Policy of Joint Agreement (the accompanying principle with the Rule of Honesty)---this will mean that LadyD is out. For good (there's no way that you can compromise on that). It also should mean that contact with your OM is out---for good (at least for you). Again, there's no room for compromise.<P>If you two will start taking the time to care for each other, and to learn the skills to put each other first---you will have a strong marriage. I think that you're probably on the right track---make sure that your counselor is doing a good job, and that you're seeing results in a short time.<P>God bless, FC.

K,<BR>First things first . . . <BR>Thanks for your reply from the big “R.” I’m glad you put your 2 cents worth in.<BR>Geez, K, if you leave who will be the local sage? I mean, you’ve always got something great to say, and you always put an interesting spin on everything. I wish you wouldn’t depart. Though I understand that it is necessary, and part of healing is “moving on.” For purely selfish reasons, I wish you’d stay. I don’t know, K, you are very grounded and that is refreshing. Nonetheless, I wish you and yours the best of love and recovery. I know that many folks here have benefited from your advice and your experience. Like Harley, I’m sure you never planned to be an expert (of sorts) in this area of infidelity. You’ve been a delightful voice of reason in turbulent times. Thanks, friend.<P>In reply to your reply . . .<BR>The “I love you” to H came because I had done some hard thinking about what I appreciate about him. I really like the pride he has in his home and his work. He is very ambitious and as a result we are very secure. I love staying home with my son, and it is thanks to H’s job and his money management skills that I get to stay home. That is such a blessing to me. I also admire his “handy man” skills. He can fix anything around this house. He does so with such pride and skill. He takes good care of the house, he pays all of the bills (I can’t manage $ worth a darn), he always wants the best for our family. I admire that about him. I appreciate that our financial future is secure. I like the freedom that our family had to give nice gifts to others, and I felt so blessed to be able to “adopt-a-family.” It is also thanks to H that I am able to keep my part-time position as a professor. If not for H’s income, I’d have to leave my PT job and work full-time. I love my job and that makes me very grateful to H. I guess I just spent some time thinking about all I have and how much I appreciate that. I also know that if I were to leave H for OM, we’d be penniless. I don’t mean to sound so materialistic. It is really more about security and comfort and lack of stress, than it is about money. It may be hard for you to understand, but H understands. He is glad I notice and appreciate this stuff. It makes him feel good to be a provider. He is good at it and I love him for that. I also am glad to not be single. I was kind of experiencing that “better to have someone than no one” feeling. I am glad I have a husband. While I have my issues with him, I’d rather have a H and have issues, than be single. Most of my friends are single and very lonely. I am glad I’m not alone. So, with all of that in mind, on the day I learned about the OW2, but before I learned of her, I told H I loved him. He stopped dead in his tracks, turned and looked at me for a moment, and then said, “I love you too, honey.”<P>It was a nice moment. But it ended a few hours later. <P>Nevertheless, K, I see your point about neglecting his need. I can’t deny that for an instant. We’ve both been deep into ourselves and in most respects, unable to pick ourselves up and meet the other’s needs. Each of us has been so burdened by unbearable pain that we’ve been suffering beyond imagination. I suppose we’ve both felt that meeting the other’s needs is like asking a person, who is bleeding to death, to donate blood. <P>But, when I said, I love you, I had, indeed, found enough “feeling” for H to come around a bit. It has been a long time (years) since I meant those words. Progress had been made, largely because, despite the holes in my walls, we were finally talking. As I had said to H all along, I don’t care if we fight, I just want to talk about it. So, we were talking and that felt great (again, despite the immense anger and pain). Really, all it took was some attention from H to get me to be willing to stay. To foster my feelings of love for him, he simply started going to counseling with me, and there, he started to talk. Geez, for YEARS I’ve been pleading with him to do this. I knew it would help. We aren’t even talking about warm and fuzzy stuff. For the most part it is pretty ugly in therapy. We cry and argue a lot, but it needs to come out. HOWEVER, now, with the OW2 chapter discovered, I wonder if the reason he had shut me out, and neglected our problems, and refused to deal with the affair and baby, is because there was OW2. This OW2 situation really throws a wrench into the mess.<P>Now, K, I have to admit, I feel as if you, if as you say, were our therapist, you’d encourage to consider the affairs “bygones.” To forgive and forget. Of course, you’d ask us to “affair proof.” But I get the feeling that you aren’t seeing how truly damaging this second affair is. Though I am handling it very well, I have to admit that it is a major setback for me. His EA (emotional affair – if it was in fact limited to that) began before my affair did, continued through my affair, and continues on today. This is a big problem. Like I said before, “first time shame on H, second time shame on FC.” I don’t know if I can trust again, AGAIN!<P>K, I don’t have THAT much love for H yet. I said I love you, but I didn’t say, “ I love you light of my life, one true soul-mate, take me to bed or loose me forever.” We made a step (and a big one at that) but we his EA is a huge blow to our recovery. You can’t deny that.<P>I totally agree with living by the 4 rules. I have been trying very hard to abide by the rule of honesty. I don’t feel like H is in with me though. He read ½ of Harley’s book and gave up on it. He doesn’t do what the counselor asks in terms of homework. He doesn’t seem to be doing much more than going with me. Well, actually, he does talk while we are there, so I have to take that last statement back. <P>As far as divorce being an option, well, I am afraid to say, if H had another affair with OW2, then it is an option. At some point we have to say enough is enough. How many affairs does it take to end a marriage. I’d have to draw the line at a total of 3. I know for a fact he’d divorce me if I had another one! I’d divorce me too.<BR> <BR>The POJA is a difficult one for H and I. We hardly agree on anything. He absolutely does not think he should end his friendship with LadyD. He says she is the only one he can talk to about this. I think he should be talking to me, but he says he can’t, and that he can talk to her. So, what do I do about that? I can’t control him. I can’t stop him from going to work and talking to her or calling he or emailing her. Worse yet, he doesn’t want to end the friendship. That’s the real problem! It is a matter of motive for him. The fact is he wants to be in her company.<P>We have a long way to go K. I don’t even know if there is a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. I know we have to start to care for each other. We “care” in such different ways that it is hard to see the other caring. I’ve not given up, but I do have to say I’ve suffered a set back here. We are working on getting through the hurt and anger and then on to the skills. It’s gonna take some time, but yes, I do see the changes (even if they are in a hole in the wall). Hey, maybe that is his way of “breaking down the walls!”<P>Bottom line . . .I’m still here, we’re still married, and we’re not walking away yet.<P>Thank you very much for your “nugget.” I needed the reminder to focus on the rule of honesty and the POJA. <P>Thank you again, K<BR>FC<P><BR>

FC:<P>I'd love to stay too---in my previous "full-time" capacity; but the bottom line is that work has gotten so busy, I've got to start paying attention to it (oh no). It's a blessing of sorts---professionally, last year was exceptional, and I'm betting that this year will top last.<P>On to your issue. While I don't want to dismiss a second affair lightly (by any means), you've already acknowledged that you helped set up the situation by the state of your marriage. That's exactly how I felt about my wife's affair. And I know that I could effectively deal with it---so I'm SURE that you can as well.<P>Do I wish that your husband hadn't done somehthing so stupid and selfish???---sure. But I don't see it as doing irrepairable harm. It's just another thorn to remove, another wound that will need to be treated, but eventually will heal.<P>My main concern is that you look at the past only to benchmark how things were---look at the present to gauge progress, and go towards the future with a plan in mind (the 4 rules---glad at least ONE of you is committed ).<P>To deal with the affair: I hope that you're telling him the same things that you're telling us here (probably in counseling). That you've been feeling good about him. That the EA (or 'real' affair) is a setback, but one that YOU want to deal with quickly). <P>Your husband feels comfortable talking with LadyD, but not with you. Valuable information, sister. You should try your best to understand this, and make it such that your husband CAN feel safe coming to you first. If I were going to deal with this issue (as a therapist), I'd ask your husband if he can eliminate contact between this friend. If he said no, then I'd counter and say that we want to design a plan that works towards that goal. In essence, it would be about why your husband was uncomfortable discussing these issues with you---and you would need to learn behaviors that lessened that discomfort.<P>The bottom line is that if your husband was deeply in love with you, he'd eliminate this contact in an instant. Because YOU would be meeting his needs for this contact. So---regardless of whether or not your husband is currently willing to eliminate LadyD---one of your main foci should be to meet those needs, the way your husband wants them to be met.<P>At some point, he's also got to start in with the program. If you've gotten him to counseling, that's a start (he's meeting your need here---just not in the way that you'd like it met). And if you want him to continue, you know that positive reinforcement is much more likely to produce the desired results.<P>The bottom line is that I see a lot of progress. From way back here... Use the past more to teach some lessons and gauge your progress---don't get caught up in the resentment and frustration that it will bring (and yes, I do have to take my own advice occasionally...). <P>God bless.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your husband feels comfortable talking with LadyD, but not with you. Valuable information, sister. You should try your best to understand this, and make it such that your husband CAN feel safe coming to you first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen, K.<P>Lora...are you reading this? If so, cut this quote out and stick it in your wallet.

K, Correction <BR>In reference to me letting go of OW2, you said:<BR>________________________<BR>"While I don't want to dismiss a second affair lightly (by any means), you've already acknowledged that you helped set up the situation by the state of your marriage." <BR>________________________________<P>I agree that my actions exacerbated H’s desire to be with OW2 by having my own affair,<P>BUT<P>H’s affair with OW2 began BEFORE I ever met my OM! About 6 months before. At the time that H began his affair with OW2 I was pleading with him to go to counseling together because we were having troubles. He had admitted to not wanting to be married, to not loving me, and to having no shared interests anymore. I was fighting, very hard, to hold on. I was pleading to go to church together, to find a common interest, to seek help, to find couple friends. K, I was doing all I could think of, saying all I could think of, to save our marriage. I was practically a slave to him because I’d do anything to hold on. Little did I know, the side interest (OW2) was already in the picture. And that was just 1 ½ years after OW1. <P>It was after H’s refusal to “work on it,” and after continual negligence of me and of our marriage, and after his “long hours at work and sports,” that I entered into an affair of my own. No, that does not excuse my behavior. BUT! I do not believe I set up the second affair. I don’t think he ever came around after his first affair. The truth is, I just don’t believe he loves me or wants to have an affair free marriage. I believe he wants to have his affairs (to meet a need he will not articulate, that I cannot meet, or that he does not care to have me meet), and also have me, his perfect little housewife (and I say that sarcastically) to maintain the image of a happy family.<P>Okay, this is why I had to leave MB. I get so DARN mad when I really think about all of this crap!<BR>I’ve got to take a breather!<BR>Thanks, K.<BR>FC <BR>

Facing Choices,<P>I go out of town for two days and K beats me to everything I was going to say when I read your reponses. <P>First, let me respond to something you said earlier in this thread. You said you hoped to return the kindness and help I have given you. I am very happy that you think I have helped you. But if you really want to help me here is how you can do it.<P>I came to this board to learn how to make my marriage better. I began to read on the Infidelity forum. Boy did I learn a lot .<BR>You began to post and your situation just gripped my heart. I don't know why. In some senses you deserved to lose your marriage after all that you had done to your H. But there was always something else there FC. Gradually, after reading your posts I realized. This nutty lady really does love her H deep down but she doesn't know it. Worse her H really loves and she doesn't know that either. So I posted to you. I have come here almost everyday since your first post hoping to see that you and your H would see what you had. <P>FC if you really want to return kindness and help, heal your marriage. It would just make me feel wonderful to see that the two of you finally realize what you have in each other inspite of everything you have done to each other. It really would. (Besides I then could sign off and get some work done )<P>You have been given some very good advice on this thread and K's response covered everything I could have said. I see that the counseling is going to help you and your H. It will be painful, because you have done some very painful things to each other, but I see you actually making progress. <P>It seemed to me from reading your posts from months ago, that you were simply looking for a good reason to leave your H and not look too bad in the process. However, now it seems that your marriage has been getting worked on: partly time and hopefully some discussion between you and H. <P>FC, as K said, look to see why your H needed to have at least one affair. As you said the friendship aspect of #2 can be understood in light of your response to things and your own affair. But I guess, I would like you to focus on the fact that you have been having feelings of love for you H. If you can remove the OM from the contact part of the picture (the baby will always be a reminder to both of you), then I think there is hope.<P>Finally, FC, I would like to suggest that you sit down with your H and tell him what you have told us. How the prospect of affair #2 hurts you. How you understand it. How you really need H and want H to be honest. All of the things here. Maybe even copy this off and show it to him. <P>Open up communications. You had left the impression that H would not talk about emotional things and such. However, it seems that he was capable of such discussion with OW#2. She was his friend. Is it possible that you and H need to become friends? It would appear that since he could not talk with you he did not view you as a friend and someone he could trust. This appears to be true even before your affair.<P>Finally, FC I would like to remind you of something K said and I have pointed out to several people on this forum. He discussed his feeling when he found out his wife was expecting the OM's child. He was devestated, but with some time and thought he realized it was an OPPORTUNITY to show his wife how much he loved her. He accepted the baby and his W back. You H was given the same OPPORTUNITY and he reponded in the same way. No matter what he did in the past, whether he had one or two affairs, he loves YOU. Please remember this. All that you have done to each other has been an extreme test. It seems to me it was due in part because you two are very immature in many respects. You both have grown. Use the past not to hurt each other but grow from it. You have admitted love for your H and he has done the same. <P>Revisit the past only for education and not ammunition.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited January 18, 2000).]