I have noticed some incredible changes over the past couple months. It's like the tables have turned and I am no longer the needy and insecure one looking for reassurance, begging to be loved, working Plan A and tolerating withdrawal.<P>When withdrawal ending last June, we entered a new phase that seemed to keep evolving. Suddenly, I had my husband back. In most ways like before but better than ever; in other ways worse. His drinking problem accelerated. But, in spite of that, he continued to work on 'us' and to focus on 'us'. I became his focal point again and we enjoyed some major healing. At least I think we did.<P>Now, I find I am questioning whether or not I can continue in the marriage when it I was so desperate to restore the marriage for nearly a year. <BR>Because a child is the result of the betrayal, I am having a hard time accepting this all of a sudden. It's as if I have lived with this knowledge for a year but didn't have the strength to fully face it. I blocked out the ramifications of his 'fling' with this woman. And suddenly, I can't seem to accept that he was ever even capable of doing this in the first place. <BR>I am hoping that this is a phase I am going through and it will pass because there is no one in this world I have ever loved or wanted more than my husband, and it has always been that way. This is not a new revelation to me.<P>What is surprising to me is my husband, the Betrayer, has become insecure and needy. Now he is the one worried about the marriage and eager to please and restore. While I get a great deal of satisfaction from this, I find I am becoming increasingly resentful. He doesn't know I feel this way and I am careful to keep these negative feelings buried until they pass. I don't want to hurt him in any way because he is dealing with his demons and battling alcoholism. <BR>That's why I am here posting on the forum. To give me a chance to let go of it so I don't do anything stupid or rash-to ride it out and hope it passes.<P>Are there other Betrayers out there who are experiencing insecurity? If so, where does that come from? What are you thinking? Do you think that so much damage has been done that you've lost your 'status' (for lack of a better word) in the marriage where at one time you and your spouse were equal but now there is kind of an inequality that wasn't present in the past? When I say inequality, I don't mean that one person is better than the other, just that what one can expect in the marriage is somehow out of synch. I am just guessing. I think back to the brutality of withdrawal-the rejection and the posturing stance, the coldness and the hard edge that terrified me so much. When I stopped caring about that and had had enough, things changed.<P>I don't like or want the feeling that one has more power in the marriage than the other. Any insight? Thanks <P>

I'm going to try really hard not to bash you. Really, really hard. I'm sorry to say this, but it sounds like you are almost, um, satisfied (?) that your H is now the one who is hurting. Ah, well now is the time to dump him! He deserves it, right? after everything he put you through? Go on, go ahead! It's just part of the consequences of what he did, right?<P>You said:<BR>"And suddenly, I can't seem to accept that he was ever even capable of doing this in the first place."<BR>Also:<BR>"I don't like or want the feeling that one has more power in the marriage than the other."<P>You are contradicting yourself here. You've put yourself on top of the moral pedestal, then you claim you don't want the feeling that one is "better" than the other. You already believe you are "better", and your H is now this lowly person who was "capable of such a thing". Now he's feeling lower than dirt, and you have even less respect for him. Do you want to feel superior, do you want revenge, or do you want an "equal" marriage again? First, you have to lose the idea that you are morally superior to him. If you beleive what Harley says (and he does have alot of experience here), then you will understand that ALL of us are vulnerable to affairs under the "right" circumstances. I understand you are hurt, and are still reeling from the pain of what your H did. It is natural to want justice, revenge, a little retribution. The feeling of inequality you talk about is coming from you too. <P>Getting on the moral pedestal keeps you from looking at the things you've done to contribute to the failure of your marriage. Your H is 100% responsible for his affair, but both of you are responsible for the breakdown in your relationship. <BR>

I disagree with student. I think your reaction is very normal. At first, your reaction was to hold on...now you are having the chance to think about your relationship in a less panicked way. And I don't think some small degree of satsifaction in his insecurity is unusual, only human. But, I would try to look past that to the person he is, and caring for his feelings. I would encourage you not to do anything rash, but to continue to work on rebuilding your marriage. Good luck!

Student. Whoa. You have jumped to some very innaccurate conclusions. All your assumptions are completely opposite of what I was trying to say. Did I hit a nerve or something?<P>I am deeply in love with my husband. Because I love him so much, I want him to be free of pain, happy and whole. His deep remorse is healing for me and debilitating for him. It causes me pain to see him in so much pain over this...and in our situation, we cannot just 'get over it' eventually-this will be with us forever because now there is a child involved. <P>I will never apologize for coming to this forum and freely expressing my thoughts and feelings, inadequate as it may have been, because this is supposed to be a safe place where we can all come and discuss the psychological stages of recovery (which I was trying to do in my less than eloquent way), share our joys and victories, commiserate in our pain and sadness, grow, regress, what ever the angst du jour.<P>I do not get pleasure from my husband's pain. It breaks my heart. I do not get satisfaction from his feelings of insecurity and work constantly to reassure him. I am a kind and compassionate, but angry woman. I will never understand how he was capable of doing this, yet, I do understand alcoholism and the behavior associated with it. <P>This is the anniversary of discovery for me and it has brought everything to the forefront and made feelings resurface I thought I had put behind me.<P>I have never felt superior, morally or otherwise, nor do I think I am better than he is. I am in love with my husband and want only wonderful fulfillment for him. I didn't like it when he held all the cards and had all the power and I don't like it now where he feels so low and unworthy.<P>I simply wanted to know if the tables turn in anyone else's relationship after withdrawal and recovery and the falling back in love stages. Is there a period where the betrayer feels the insecurity and fear of losing what he/she has gained?<P>I am anything but smug and self-satisified. If you knew what was in my heart....<P>

One more thing. If I decide to end the marriage, it would only be because the pain is just too much to bear. Not to punish or humiliate my husband. I am hoping this feeling of despair will leave me and we can move forward. I can't imagine me with anyone else in the world, and if I did leave, I would miss him the rest of my life.<P>

kam6318:<BR>You said:<BR>"And I don't think some small degree of satsifaction in his insecurity is unusual, only human."<P>Having an affair is "human" too, but still irresponsible. Everyone is accountable for their actions, betrayed and betrayer.<P>catnip:<BR>Ok, yes, you hit a nerve. Trust me. No matter what your reasons for divorcing your H, he won't think you are doing him a favor if he still wants your marriage. You have what many people on this board can only pray for: a spouse that seems truly repentant and sorry for the pain he caused. This is part of the recovery process for anyone who is remorseful. If you abandon him now, it is no different than what he did to you, IMHO. You might feel more justified, somehow, because you may see it as him hurting you first, etc.etc. He needs counseling to help deal with his new "awareness". This pain of his might seem like some kind of extra burden on you? Like, how dare he be so needy when *I'm* the victim here? <P>Sure, this is painful. You said you can't imagine life without him in it,though. From what I've read here, the first year is the worst. You two are so close to making a crucial breakthrough. You both are probably pretty worn out from the past year, I'll bet. Have you done some fun things together? Maybe you have been working so hard to keep your marriage together that you've forgot to have fun? Forgot why you two fell in love in the first place?

I remember reading something right after discovery that didn't make too much sense then, but did later. To paraphrase, it said that after discovery, when your spouse decides to stay with you, you go through three stages. <P>1. I WON!<BR>2. What, exactly, did I win?<BR>3. Do I really want it?<P>Catnip, to me, that means that your reactions are a normal stage to be going through. It sounds like you are in the #3 stage now and you are the only one who can decide whether you really "want it" (him). Just respect him , don't burn any bridges and take care of your own problems. Hopefully, he will be doing the same thing, so that if you stay together, you will both be there because you love each other and really want to be together.

Hi, all,<P>I tend to agree that Student reacted very strongly to this post due to her own situation & anger over it... Catnip, please don't take that blast personally; methinks it was more directed at Student's exH! Student is going through some tough times right now. Big growth spurt! (Student, forgive me for barging in and being presumptuous, ok?)<P>NOW! Catnip - re: guilt - been there, done that, have the t-shirt. You've hit the nail on the head in several ways. After my affair years ago, I *never* fully jettisoned my guilt/shame. I wasn't even totally aware I was carrying it around for a long time, nor that it was continuing to sabotage our marriage... there was most definitely a feeling of being "one-down" or unequal... although I couldn't have expressed it concisely at the time, 'way down deep I felt unworthy of having my H / my marriage... and I kind of retreated behind a "wall". I lost the self-confidence to be open, joyful, passionate, EQUAL. It was a *terrible* time; it continued to hurt us both, and it ultimately was partially responsible for DMac's affair a year & a half ago. He tried, he tried, he tried, but I couldn't beat back the shame.<P>This was nothing that he was doing to ME - all he wanted was his wife back, and able to be deeply emotionally intimate with him. To literally be able to look him in the eye and hold the look... for we've discovered that that is a pretty good barometer of how healthy and trusting the relationship is. We barely made eye-contact for years (we do now!).<P>The second thing is your anger. I think you are dead-on when you say that you were in "panic mode" trying to keep your marriage afloat during & after the affair, and are just now having the "luxury" of being angry. There is nothing wrong with this. I think it's perfectly normal. The exact same thing happened to me after DMac's affair. All you were doing is prioritizing: your anger was temporarily secondary to the need to save your marriage. You did exactly what you needed - and wanted - to do.<P>So don't let the anger throw you. It *will* pass eventually. Don't lose sight of what the Big Picture is: rebuilding your marriage. You *haven't* made a mistake by saving your marriage... you would be making a huge mistake now by coming to that conclusion based on your anger!<P>Catnip - your anger is *normal*. You have a lot to be angry about! And you need to deal with it somehow (counseling?). I'd agree based on your descriptions of your H's mental state (alcohol problem etc) that he might not strong enough right now to bear the brunt of it, even if you approached him with it in a responsible way. I can tell you as a former betrayer that your H IS feeling like $hit right now. Lower than a worm's belly.<P>But don't keep stuffing it under the rug either. You both still have a lot of processing to do. It ain't over 'til it's over! I think you do need to keep the lines of communication open with him... assure him that you love him & are totally committed to your marriage... BUT, that you've kind of pushed aside your anger while you put "first things first", and now that the relationship has stabilized a bit (which I hope you realize *is* true), it's biting you on the butt and you need to deal with it!<P>Catnip, don't let your anger ruin everything you have already accomplished. That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is just another stage in the recovery process. It threw me for a loop too at first, but luckily I was able to figure out what was going on (the bennies of lots of previous counseling! ). <P>You know, I just had a thought... your H is feeling pretty useless and worthless right now... perhaps it would be healing for you *both* to allow or invite him to *help you* deal with your anger... he needs to believe he still has worth in the marriage (believe me, Catnip, this self-loathing goes SO DEEP). Right now I'm sure he feels that you've single-handedly saved the day... and so what is HE any good for??... he needs to find some self-worth again to function within the marriage.<P>You know, I'd been working on the guilt and shame issues, and on breaking down "The Wall", intensively with my counselor, and was making *some* progress. But the final step of healing for me was being able to help DMac through *his* affair... after years of feeling shamed and unworthy, I knew I had something powerful and valuable to offer my marriage (knowledge and understanding and strength) when it needed it. I'm NOT suggesting you have an affair , but that you find a way to let your H do something wonderful for your marriage - for *you*. Let him be strong for *you*. IMHO, he needs it, you need it.<P>Anyway, complex subject... very near & dear to my heart... I hope I've offered a few nuggets to chew on. I'd be happy to delve further with you, either here or in private email! Best of luck to you. I really think you can work through this.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Catnip, I read this post with interest. For more than two years I've been reading Dr. James Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough." Toward the end of the book, Dr. Dobson deals with the subject of what you are feeling right now.<P>It seems that for such a long time we endure such atrocious behavior from our spouses in their cheating. Then there comes a time when they decide they want to make it up to the wronged partner. Dr. Dobson states that at that point, the tables are suddenly turned and the betrayers are doing everything possible to try and win back the love of the ones they wronged.<P>Dr. Dobson cautions us in that we must not become hardened and be willing to grant forgiveness to those that have wronged us.<P>Right now, I can't see that happening in my case. Butwho knows? Maybe that will someday be an option for me.<P>I can certainly understand your feelings.<P>Martha<BR>

Catnip,<P>Well, I think Suse really hit the nail on the head! Took the words right outta my mouth! <P>Mates are sensitive creatures who can tell if you have resentment brewing. I know I can almost ALWAYS tell when my H is thinking evil thoughts about me. And it is such a hard hard sad time for the both of you to muddle through. I don't think there is a graceful or simple way to do it, and that it's part of the growing process. (It helps to tell myself that too, in times of despair.) We are still in that phase, and sometimes I feel like he's ripping my heart right out.<P>Some of what the Student said is how I feel deep down inside, in the little girl part of me who just won't grow up. But it's there and it's real, like it or not. I see it in flashes and it rarely comes out - only when all my other resources are used up.<P>I guess you just need to be angry for awhile, kitty. Don't try to stuff it, but maybe try to find other outlets besides your H's heart for it. I know that if all I felt was anger from my H, the whole relationship would become horribly unbalanced and I might not be able to take it! So it's ok, but find a way!<P>Now, I'd be willing to bet that your H has fallen into a very vicious cycle right now with his drininking and insecurity now. Is he getting any help for this? He's got so many deep things to work on right now, and I really feel for him. I also understand that you do not have the resources you might have had to help him through this. That doesn't mean give up ship, but it means try another tack. Counselling, perhaps? I kinda feel that the FIRST thing he needs to work on is his alcoholism. That is the great barrier thru which nothing more can pass until it begins to lift. I know this because at least 70 - 80 % of my family members are alcoholic. <P>Twelve step programs are, well, nice. I prefer Rational Recovery as a resource for healing an addiction or dealing with a loved one's. Please take a gander at the book Rational Recovery at a bookstore! Read thru it, highlight the parts you want him to see, write in those nice margins and give it to H to read. Tell him that if he wants to do something "nice" for you to start there. Otherwise, I really feel he's putting the cart before the horse.<P>One final note then my book will be done: You're at a Marriage Builder's site where you'll get more advice on how to deal with the affair. But truly, I'm addressing the substance abuse issue because ,,, sheesh how can i put this ...<P>Picture your marriage as a house. The leaky roof is the affair. The weak walls are the insecurity and self-esteem issues. But the foundation is where you need to start. AT the foundation you'll find the substance abuse. What good is a nice strong roof atop solid walls if your foundation is cracking and crumbling away???<P>Get it?<P>Good luck hon. Be kind to your husband, he's human, and you are all each other has right now.<P>Khyra

Suse,<BR>Yes I reacted strongly. Yes, in part due to my ex H. Even though I probably could have found a more gentle way to say it, I still think I'm right that catnip considers herself "above" her husband. Even if she has a hard time admitting that. If she didn't consider herself above him, then she could understand how he could be "capable of such a thing". Now she can't admit that she is "capable" of feeling morally superior. Granted, she can't control her H's feelings and what he is going through. I believe your suggestions will help her more than my criticism. However, I still think, no matter how hard she tries, that until she can find a way to put herself in her husband's shoes, she will unconsciously send a message to her H that she is "above" him. Isn't that what everyone asks the betrayers to do? Isn't that what remorse is all about, to try and "feel" the pain of the other person? For whatever reason, she is now relieved that her husband has been able to "feel" her pain and understand how badly he hurt her. She is having a hard time understanding *his* pain, I think, because she is still very angry with him. She may not even want to admit how angry she still is! <P>I'm convinced that part of the reason you and Dmac's recovery has gone so well is because you both have been on either side of the infidelity issue. It was a whole lot easier to understand what the other person was going through. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 17, 2000).]

catnip,<BR>i am so glad i read your post. i too am at the year anniversary of discovery. and there is a beautiful baby boy that has no daddy, the dna test will be done in 2 wks. to determine who the father is, my h or the ow h. and i too am going through a very strange time. i don't think it has anything to do with "above" or smugness as student describes. i didn't read that into your post at all.<BR> i too sometimes feel like, where did these feelings come from? i worked so hard to forgive and love him back into our family. now that i've got him, it is really sinking in. my heart screams out O MY GOD HE LOVED HER! why am i now suffering so intensly? i don't know. the reality of the baby definately has something to do with it, the possiblilty of the open door and 12% of his income in support is truly frightening. <BR> one thing is that i want so much to relax and bask in his love for me, but as i do i am plagued by "how could he do such a thing" type thoughts along with "how could he ever really want me"? for some reason i cannot really believe him, and receive his love. i have said that my love bank has burned down and the atm machine is broken and i cannot receive deposits. the culmination of 9 yrs. of loving him was his desire for someone else. for 4.5 yrs. he loved her and met her needs while i continued to pour out my love on him. i had no idea what was wrong, i thought there was something wrong with me. we had a storybook marriage, i had no idea anything was wrong. he never said that i hurt him, he just stuffed it. when he finally exploded and talked about single sentences i said 7yrs. previously--how could i even remember what he was talking about. now he is so remorseful and has said that if he had a small fraction of the love i gave him then, he would be in heaven. in some ways it was easier early on in this discovery journey. i think shock had something to do with it.<BR> adultery is not always due to disintegration of a marriage, it can be due to the disintegration of a person. he is now being restored, and i am thrilled, but my heart is dead. the rejection of it all has killed me. <BR> however, i believe that God can make a way. i am daily trusting Him for healing. and i am loving my husband as much as i can. and we are committed to raising our children. and i believe that this trial will make us "mature and complete, not lacking anything." read it in James 1;4,5<BR> btw my pastor says this is all part of the healing process. the pain is preventing me from recieving my h love, but that will indeed pass, and my husband is learning to give and love and finding joy in that.<BR> thank you---it was so good to know that i'm not the only ingrate.

Food for thought, although please don't lambast me for not knowing what's going on, I admit I don't.<P>Sometimes we create emotional problems for ourselves when we try to move to quickly. In this case, perhaps these feelings are there because, in the rush to rebuild the marriage, not enough time was allowed to heal and to forgive?<P>The problem with most appologies is that they are premature, unfocused, and incomplete. The problem with most forgiveness is, well, the same.

good point nonplused<BR>the pressure and total shock and fear along with the intense "mother bear" instinct to protect the children does indeed tend to push both apology and forgivenss along too quickly. hind site is 20/20. next time i'll be more careful, for sure.

Hang in there catnip. I think these feelings of resentment will pass. Just as you've heard to follow your first mind, its usually what you really want, remember that having H back was what you really wanted. Satan wants your marriage to end or have problems. He will constantly remind you of your H's failures. Don't let satan win...keep a strong head and heart. Someone once told me to not trade your man in because of his faults; you just might get someone else with worse faults. At least you know what you got now. Take a deep breath and keep going. I guess H is now in Plan A. Funny how the table turns.<P>I pray that my H and I get stay together like you guys. The OW is only 1 month pregnant. My ride and Plan A starts today!<BR>Pray for me and wish me luck and wisdom.

Catnip:<P>For so long and even now I was insecure after my one night affair. I've said this before but to reply to your topic, I'll say it again. I felt like pure trash before I told my husband about affair. Moreover, after I told him and when he said he forgave me and wanted to give it a try. For some reason, I felt even worse. I felt that I was unworthy of his love, that he deserved better than me, and most of all felt that anything that I did wrong from there on would cause him to leave me. <BR> The guilt overwhelmed me to the point where I had very low self-esteem. Then when we would argue, I felt beneath him in a sense. I was intimidated by him because he would always have something to hang over my head. How could I ever get mad at him about emotional things I needed, when I did THIS! Always feeling that he was better than me, because i betrayed him. I just didn't feel good enough. And there was nothing I could do to take it back or nothing I could do to make it up to him. This wasn't a thing where I could buy him flower and make his favorite meal and he would forget about it sort of thing. This was something that would affect our future. A future that I want so desperately to share with him. But am so afraid that I could lose him. I often said that I would have been able to accept if he left me as soon as I told him and why would he do it now. But I have to honor him (and you). That you all stuck in there when you had every right to say F*** you and Leave our A$$!My hopes is that he will stay, but if he goes I will always treasure his love, because he tried!! ANd if your H feels anything like I feel , knowing that I hurt my H is the worst feeling of all. I know I'm rambling, but I have to get this out. You know, I always said that I would never marry because the man would leave just as my father left us. And even though things weren't the best before my one night stand it would have been a whole lot easier to work on than me adding on top of the problems. If there was a stronger word than guilt, that is how i would describe how I feel. And forgiving myself, that's a whole 'nother story! I hope I was able to help you understand how he might be feeling. <P>And as far as how you feel right now, who could blame you!!! My God, you are human and the one you trusted and gave your heart to.... He let you down. But please give it time before you make any rash decision. Out of tragedy, sometimes comes your biggest blessing!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

thanks jamie-lee, it is good to hear it all. thanks for letting it all hang out.

Catnip,<P>Wow. I felt the same insecurity that you said your husband is going through after I distanced myself from the affair (it definitely progresses in stages). And I still suffer this, but to a lesser degree after over a year. That's why I think that the betrayer is hurting themselves more than anyone when they become involved in an affair. My husband suffered enormously, yet I have to live with myself and my actions. Learning to forgive yourself is not an easy thing to do, but putting it all in perspective helps to move forward. The counseling my h and I went to helped enormously, realizing (without downplaying the significance) that we had problem areas that needed to be worked upon, and these things would fall into place with some work, this was what helped me in those initial stages. I think that what you've posted pretty much sums it up as far as what I've been through since disclosure of my affair, and I also think, make that know, your husband must love you very much or he would not feel this way. Here is the standard answer when it came to my own situation - Time. Recreating memories and getting further away from when the affair occurred. It does heal, and your H will slowly come around. But he won't be the same, he'll realize that certain things shouldn't be taken for granted. <P>

Hi catnip,<BR> I understand, although my H hasn't reached the point your H has. I think Suse<BR>has put her finger on what state my H is in and I didn't know what it was till I read it. I'm getting really weary though. I thought the withdrawl was because he was still addicted, but perhaps not??<BR>QUOTE from Suse<BR>... there was most definitely a feeling of being "one-down" or unequal... although I couldn't have expressed it concisely at the time, 'way down deep I felt unworthy of having my H / my marriage... and I kind of retreated behind a "wall". I lost the self-confidence to be open, joyful, passionate, EQUAL. It was a *terrible* time; it continued to hurt us both, and it ultimately was partially responsible for DMac's affair a year & a half ago. He tried, he tried, he tried, but I couldn't beat back the shame.<P>What am I supose to do it's taking it's toll<BR>BIG-TIME!!<P>------------------<BR>Lost her song (but trying to find it again)

To The Student: I firmly believe this statement of NEEN's. <P>TO: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neen:<BR><B>catnip,<P>adultery is not always due to disintegration of a marriage, it can be due to the disintegration of a person. he is now being restored, and i am thrilled, but my heart is dead. the rejection of it all has killed me. <BR> .</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Adultery kills.......<BR>You must reach the consilatory stage that JamieLee has in order to understand <P>JamieLee you truly touched my angry, hurting heart. It give me hope that one day I my be able to forgive the OW, as Christ mandates.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lost her song (but trying to find it again)