Well I've started a new topic here to save you guys some download time. My previous topic was beginning to get long. Also my fiancee posted her own topic and it felt to me an appropriate juncture to set a new and following topic.<P>One thing I would add is that I was unaware of my fiancee having posted, the first I learnt of it was seeing replies from NSR and MovingOn in my previous topic yesterday. This surprised me, but similar things have happened before in the past.<P>I am wondering how to go forward from this and all she said without embitterment. Why should I feel so aggrieved when I was / am the betrayer. The answer lies I believe and fear in something MovingOn said "each of you individually have issues that you need to deal with on a personal level". <P>An example of this could be seen in what my fiancee said in her first paragraph of her posting, and talking of my original posting, she said: "Most of what he says is true and I would like to add to it".<P>All I have said in my forum was true, entirely true, I have no reason to lie to the forum, you guys are wonderful in making new members (like myself)be at ease to do that. There is no judgement, only help and viewpoints. Of course my introduction and following postings were a brief synopsis, everything that has happened since we first met could be turned into a mini novel. I tried to describe in brief my willingness to accept my guilt as a betrayer, but I was having difficulty. I was looking for help.<P>My fiancee has also been economical with the truth, and much like my original postings, her words are true (well most of them ....I was not always in bed with OW when fiancee rang me, her words lead to saying this was the case), but leave to guess half the story. I have often felt that the way she expresses herself, amplifies her side and diminishes my side. I guess, in our own personal dealings, I have also been guilty of this. Maybe I did this in my original postings, if so I apologise to everyone, including my fiancee, but it wasn't my intention. I was trying to focus straight to the task in hand, that of dealing with my guilt and trying to forgive myself.<P>I have heard what Jim (NSR) has said about this not being able to happen at a distance. I have heard what MovingOn has said about: "What is really stopping you going over to the US and being with your fiancee? Taking a chance on love. Something is stopping you".<P>It would appear that I have had plenty opportunity to get myself out there, my fiancee made reference to various efforts. She failed to mention the one main over-riding factor which has hindered me. The financial side. Does this over-ride the chance on love. I don't know. All I knew was that there was a huge onus on me not to burden her in anyway financially. I am not (or rather wasn't)poor, but nor am I rich. What I did feel was that my respect and my responsibility to her and the relationship was to try and give this the best start that I possibly could, and that which was within my scope, for my arrival in the states.<P>After the phone call in August (fiancee and OW), I did tell her that I still wanted to make this work, but she understandably tightened up the conditions and restraints for me, this included financial aspects too. It meant that I had to rearrange my plan of action. And I was steadily going through a plan of action, I was clearing debts (usual stuff ...card and loan accounts), I was selling possessions of mine, my car, my computer, furniture etc. I even re-homed my dog who had been with me for 12 years. The last pieces of the jigsaw were my job and the sale of the house to which I had bought into with the OW.<P>Thes were both to occur at the end of September, I had given notice of leaving my employer a month before, soon after the above phone call. This in itself (not to mention all the other things preceding)was I felt proof enough that I was committed to making the move over. The funds from the house sale was to provide the 'cushion' for my arrival, whilst I searched for work and transport in the States.<P>Beyond anyones control other than the person in question, the house buyer delayed things, and delayed ....stringing things along, making false promises, etc, anyone from the UK will know what I am saying. It doesn't happen in the States, house purchase is conducted differently. Completion dates were promulgated all through October and early November, until he finally pulled out 2 days before the last promised completion date.<P>This was a major, major blow. Maybe I should mention the OW here, and the continued necessary involvement. Back in June, when my fiancee went through a process of making amends for her initial withdrawal, I extricated myself from the OW emotionally, the 'withdrawal' stage to a certain extent. The OW extricated herself by finding employment and accommodation elsewhere. This took some time, and eventually occured end of August. Agter her conversation with my fiancee, she realised where my true love lay, as much as it hurt her. But we were still entangled by a joint house responsibility, mortgage and all. <P>Whilst the issues of why I did things at certain times are open to my current self-examination, in order that I may be able to forgive myself for my duplicity and deceit, I have enough respect and feel responsible enough to not bankrupt her. I very nearly did ignore that responsibility, I was very low and dissappointed by the house sale not going through, I had fundamental directions to take and for a moment, i tried to ignore the financial responsibilities (trying to kid myself that it waould all wash out in the end). I bought an air-ticket for the end of October.<P>When it came to the crunch of steeping on the plane. I couldn't do it, why ....well I do not know all the reasons yet, I am hoping this will become clear to me. One I know was that I didn't want to exascerbate whatever pain the OW was feeling (and I knew she was) with financial ruin as well. The now depleted funds of mine, were against my promise of not burdening my fiancee, to her credit she had said we would cope somehow, but I felt a failure at this point. The conditions of my arrival and the initial period, well the tasks at hand seemed huge and insurmountable, laced with pain, grief, remorse, and worst of all, it seemed, resentment.<P>I had also made it very clear that I felt I could never deal with my fiancees pain immediately for two reasons. First and mainly, this couldn't possibly be done satisfactorily at a distance, by emails and phone calls, it had to be in person, when we were together. Secondly, I knew I had to sort my head out, sort my guilt out, sort my intentions (past and present) out, sort my love out. In effect sort me out ...wholesale, totally. I was withdrawn and I appeared to everyone as that ...I mean everyone.<P>I too have been physically sick with the consequences of my actions. I was experiencing all debilitating effects from all directions. First, my newly engaged fiancee withdrew her love to almost completion, so soon after I had proposed. Things happened that were pretty ghastly, and hurt me deeply. She has said, she has withdrawn to observe my actions, this I think refers to my pleas about unrequited love. MovingOn hit the nail on the head when she said: "Are you both being stubborn and if so why? This is not how two people in love, trying to build a relationship, work."<P>I have loved my fiancee deeply and genuinely, and I still do. This is never been a doubt to me. My actions and her actions, yes they raise big questions and issues, problems, I always felt that, in the most part these should be dealt with, in person and without resentment. Unfortunately, distance, time, visa pressures, unsatisfactory communication media, finances have all played a part in foiling us time and time again.<P>Also my fiancee has resorted to one of the worst 'love-busters' in constantly reminding me that i am a lier and a cheat. I try to understand that this her pain venting in whichever way, pain that I have not dealt with yet for reasons above. It's part of the resentment she feels, and fuels any resentment I may have. It certainly throws me back deep into withdrawal each and every time.<P>I have spent a major proportion of my time in the last two weeks trying to self-examine myself. To the exclusion of everything else, necessary work that has to be done to completely extricate myself from the house / OW situation. I have wriiten long, open and very frank emails to my fiancee describing and explaining why things happened, right or wrong, acknowledged wherever I could my wrong doings, and expressed the feelings of guilt in having done those things.<P>Her responses have been great to start with and deteriorating with each following. Her words have taken things that I have said (which I will reiterate, were my closely examined motivations and feelings at the time, good and bad) and turned them around, her view of my actions and feelings are that of disbelief, I couldn't possibly have been thinking like that at that moment in time. This is hugely frustrating and damaging to me, to the extent that for a split second I lost all hope (not the first time) and I told her where to get off this journey. Not nice and not nicely done. But then I am not perfect by any means. Doesn't mean I do not love her at all. No way.<P>Her conditions and terms tightened up further when I did make the trip in October. I asked some probing questions to try and ascertain what life was going to be like with her, when I eventually make the trip. Not all encompassing questions, moreso hypothetical ones, opening out options tha may be available to us, possible avenues of future. These were met with disdain and unhelpful discussion. In fact there really wasn't any discussion at all, I was told this was how it was going to be, no negotiation, no compromise, after all I was a cheat and a lier, why should she.<P>On the back of this, and a bleak future I said goodbye, and she agreed wholeheartedly in November. She even involved my daughter at the time, by writing to her, and informing her that she had sent a parcel to her containing items of very high emotional value. Her wedding dress and ring bought for our wedding to happen. Her engagement ring, all the gifs I had bought her, works of love, written stuff, the lot.<P>This suggested to me that it was truely over, no half -measures of goodbyes that had happened on more than one occassion preceding. So where did this leave me.<P>Jobless, car-less, computerless, dog-less .....you get the picture. All I had was a very few possessions, mainly personal and a house that I couldn't sell before Christmas / New Year. My funds were all but gone completely, my worth was tied up in something I couldn't realise funds from. Mortgage lenders and banks still had to be paid. Yeah this was a very very dire situation, for me personally.<P>The only option I believed I had was that of an agreed and negotiated short term future with the OW. No promises of relationships or long term commitments, just ways to get us out of the mess with the house and such related financial issues. We undertook to be civil, even nice to each other, this wasn't really a problem, we still had great respect for each other. We had sex and I mean just that...sex. It wasn't part fo a relationship, it wasn't a frequent or regular thing either. it happened maybe twice, and if anything confirmed that we could not make ourselves have feelings in that way for the other. On the whole it was very unsatisfactory and we both acknowledged it. We couldn't cut loose again totally because of the damn house.<P>My fiancee mentioned that she tried to comeback (once again, she could not take it. This was in fact over one week after, although I did not see her email for nearly 3 weeks after, probably more, I did not go near a computer. I did not get a phone call from her.<P>The OW has come to realise that I cannot love her like my fiancee, nor in the way that she wants to be loved. I know that she is going through enormous pain too, much the same as when my fiancee first withdrew from me bigtime. Why do I know this ...because we have discussed it. She has no wish to 'get back at me', she has no hate for me, she has seen first-hand the pain that has racked me, including as a consequence of my own actions, good and bad.<P>The worrying thing is that I heard very recently is that she is not coping with it at all. She said she felt like 'topping-herself'. I am scared and I am worried. I know now that I have to deal with her pain as well.<P>I don't know how much more of this I can take ............<P>I will add a couple of notes here to end. My fiancee questions the love, and the love I had for her. She mentions a 'long-term' relationship she had 15 years ago. About the same time that I was divorced. She mantions an STD that she contracted, but fails to mention that this affects us both directly. As part of marriage and a life-long partnership with her, I will without doubt, contract this condition from her, and it does not go away ...ever. It is not present always ...but there is no cure ...not yet. I have accepted this and I have thought long and hard about it, I came to the conclusion I loved her enough and I wanted to be with her for the rest fo my living days. That is how much I loved her. I would have also gladly given my life for her when I proposed to her.<P>Maybe one day she will understand the deep loss of passion that occured when she withdrew, for no apparent reason. I truly believe passion is not something you gain or lose, you either have it within yourself or you do not. Call it true love, call it something that allows you to still love a person no matter what. It buries itself, sometimes forever, but I honestly believe for myself that is ever lost forever.<P>I will end here for this time ......<P>Allen<P>

Hi again ....<P>Another thing I would add .....one of the conditions my fiancee set was to do with smoking on her property. I make subtle emphasis to the word 'her'. The issue with smoking is not a major one, I want to give it up, and it will be when I feel strong enough, stress free enough to do this. I have promised never to smoke in her company, nor in the house.<P>But is it entirely reasonable to ban this from the garage and the yard as well !!! In her presence or not, ie whether she is home or not?<P>And I mention garage only because I know that for maybe 5 months of the year, the place where my fiancee lives is very cold, and more often than not, covered in snow.<P>Hmmmmmmm ........<P>Allen

Allen,<P>It's highly unlikely Janette can continue in this relationship with you while you have the unresolved issues of house and OW so inter-twined.<P>Yes, she is now making unreasonable selfish demands (sorry Janette... these are... unless there are health issue not expressed here)... and that is clearly a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A>. How do you fight against that?... Only with a "pure" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> on your part.<P>Can you do a "pure" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> while having the dealings with the OW (you might not call it an "affair"... but <B>any</B> sexual encounters in Janette's mind make it an affair... ongoing at that.)... the simple answer is NO!<P>Your only hope is to<BR>1. end this relationship (business and otherwise) with the OW... as soon as humanly possible (hard especially since you don't want to hurt her)... <BR>2. cut your loses on the house... <BR>3. accept the terms of your fiancee (if she really loves you she will also be less demanding...) and <BR>4. start living in a way that shows to Janette you can follow those rules I replied with yesterday... <B>The Four rules to guide marital recovery</B><BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Protection:</B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Care:</B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Time:</B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Honesty:</B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL> <P>If you can't do this...<BR><B>It is time to move on without Janette</B><BR>If you can...<BR><B>let her know post haste</B>!<P><BR>Janette... if you can accept Allen's sincerity... and Allen gives you no reason to doubt it...<BR><B>You will be the one to make the decision</B>. Do think it through.<BR>If you can't accept it...<BR>If Allen falters...<BR><B>it is time to move on for you too...</B> It will stop your hurt and Allen's too.!<P>Allen and Janette... I hope for the best for both of you... wheather that be together or apart.<P>Good people deserve good lives... <P>Allen and Janette... you both can be happy... growing in your understanding of self first... (Janette your ending thoughts are on the mark...)<P>Jim

Allen<P>This is a very involved story indeed. I cannot help wondering why you bought a house with the OW if you have never doubted your love for your fiancee. Was it to provide the "cushion" you referred to in your posting?<P>You also mention that the financial side of things has been one of the main problems (in getting over to the US) and that you are now jobless. How does your staying with the OW help her?<P>I suppose what I am saying to you is this - are you quite sure that you are not looking for excuses about why you have not made the move to be with your fiancee.<P>I mean no disrespect when I ask these questions but am trying to help you think about all the issues involved.<P>I wonder why the OW is now hurting so badly and not coping. Could it be that she saw your relationship rather differently than you did? Did you always make it clear to her that your relationship with her was to be a short term one while you sorted out your feelings for your fiancee?<P>If you did then you should be able to walk away quite easily - or not?<P>It seems you do really have some big problems to deal with - I wish you strength to do the right thing all round, for all your sakes.<P>God Bless you in this quest.

Boy dumbmale, you sure picked the perfect name for yourself. Sorry, but I have never read such bull! So basically, it is EVERYONE and EVERYTHING elses fault that you could not break off contact with OW. It is everyone and circumstances that made it impossible to tell the truth to both OW and fiancee from the beginning. You bought a house with OW, but of course loved another! HUH, and then you state that it is unreasonable for her not to allow you to smoke in her house, when she has stated medical conditions! All I can say is YOU PLAY THE VICTIM OH SO WELL!! give me a break, GROW UP and stop wasting EVERYONE'S TIME with such "CIRCUMSTANCES PREVENT ME" crap!

Allen<P>I am glad you found my last posting useful.<P>I think I am now rather confused as this story seems to be incomplete somewhere because there seem to be statements made that don't quite add up.<P>Look DEEP inside yourself for the real answers - I believe that at some level we all have that ability within ourselves to heal ourselves.<P>MO<BR>

Thanx for the postings guys .....a mixed baych and I will answer those here:-<P>To all, lets get this clear, the relationship with the OW has finally finished. The episode recently before Christmas, referred to in my postings and my financee was a mistake, but at that juncture, I was lead to believe more than at any other time that our goodbye (my fiancee, if I can still call her that) and me was permanent. I didn't anticipate that my fiancee would still want me back. We spoke just before Christmas, because we were supposed to have been together, I wanted to say sorry and wish her the best time in the circumstances. She asked me the last time I had slept with OW and I was honest and truthful. Does it matter if we had said godbye, I don't know.<P>The ongoing involvement ...well let me try to explain. I gave up my job in September because I thought I would be flying to States early October, flush with funds from the house sale. When the sale finally fell through in November, I had different practical issues facing me. I couldn't get another job because i didn't know how long I was to remain in this country, a day, a week, a month, I didn't know.<P>I asked the OW what her plans were for the house, she said as always before ...to sell it. But in the meantime, the mortgage still had to be financed. I paid this, it was rapidly depleting the funds i still had at that time. The plan was to do some works to the house so that it could be seperated into living and rented accommodation. The OW was to move back into the house when her lease was up on her London property, she couldn't afford that lease and a mortgage. Part of the house would be rented to generate income, whilst the process of re-marketing it for sale again was happening.<P>I undertook to do those works all by myself, it was the cheapest way. That is what I have been doing solidly for the last month. Time was lost last couple of weeks as i did self examination on myself, all of this and the emails I have been writing to Janette take time, lots of time. But i am working as fast as I can to complete the works so that te OW can be more comfortable financially, at least in the short term.<P>As for me, I do not expect any financial recompense for this and I can only wait until the house will eventually sell. maybe 3-5 months time.<P>To proceed with my fiancee, I will have to fly to the States as a visitor now, my visa has expired. I cannot work there. Work here will be hard to find, a permanent placing will not give me the time to spend in the States, I will have to work temporarily or on contract, and with consequently lower earnings.<P>Am I making excuses like one or two has suggested. I do not think so, I am being honest here.<P>My fiancee has said that she is unable to support me, nor would I expect her to. She has said that I am welcome to visit, with the terms and conditions referred to previously.<P>I am trying so hard to look deep inside myself for answers, I really am.<P><BR>Now in response tpo replies individually:-<P>Jim,<BR>Thank you once again for your wise words.<P>I am working hard towards all contact with OW to be severed. Above explains a little more. There will be no more sexual contact with OW. Emotionally, well I have tried not to I really have, but like I said, she phoned me with words of not coping and threats to top herself. She referred to my withdrawal as being so cold.<P>Cutting my losses, well the future will dictate that. The funds in the house will automatically reduce because of the timescales. Am I supposed to make myself homeless too ...sorry I am not being sarcastic here, it is a fundamental practical problem.<P><BR>Judith,<BR>Thank you for your considered questions and your well wishes.<P>Yes absolutely, the buying into the house was supposed to be short term and to provide me with the 'cushion'. It was up for sale when i bought into it, and remaimed up for sale. It was an opportunity to get the OW out of a fix and an opportunity for me to realise a return of funds for my new start in USA.<P>Quite obviously, the OW has expected more from the relationship. All I can say right from the start was that we, perhaps, naively, went at each stage with no thought af another stage. In terms of the house, it was never ever thought of as a nest for this relationship, we had different plans with what we were going to do after the house was sold.<P>Of course I will admit that whatever the expectations were in this association were completely different between the OW and myself. She expected more and I expected less, and we were both dishonest with each other in not clearly expressing that. But htere was never a long term commitment.<P>I was wrong to think that my fiancee was out of my system in Spring 99, her actions made it even more so. But I didn't entirely trust my fiancees actions, not with what had preceded, and so soon after our engagement. You would have had to experience it to know, and I am not being presumptious to say that I am the only person to have felt those low feelings. Of course I am not.<P>Tryin2_4give,<BR>Well I said in my posting that the guys here are wonderful, never stand in judgement, only help ..... well I stand corrected.<P>I don't believe you have really read all the postings very thoroughly, mine or my fiancees. I did state that I was not going to smoke in my fiancees presence, I respect her allergy to it. I never said that I expected to smoke in the house, just was it reasonable to have to not do this in the yard and / or garage as well.<P>We are all victims, if you feel I am playing on it, well you are entitled to your opinion. I am not blaming everyone and everything, I am trying to understand my role in my actions.<P>The use of caps seems to emphasise your disdain with me. Perhaps you can find more sympathy with my fiancee and reply to her postings. As for helping me ...well I can't say that this has. I'm giving you the break you ask for.<P>MovingOn<BR>Thank you and I agree with you, we do have it within ourselves to answer and heal. Everyone is different and has different expectations, so the mechanics of this is singular and personal. But all help is acknowledged and gratefully received.<P>I wonder as to what statements don't quite add up as you refer. I know I made one typo : I didn't make the trip in October, I should have proof read before posting, I apologise.<BR>

Hello Allen<P>My observation is that you have cruelly and calously used the OW for your own ends! My guess is that its her funds that have been supporting you and this why you have stayed with her in a cushy situation! My guess is that she has continued to support you because you have given her false hope and not been honest with her. My guess is that SHE has kept you and probably paid the mortgage! There are men in this world who are pathetic bums that take advantage of vulnerable women who are generous and blind and my guess is that u fit into this category. So Allen where your balls - stand up like a man and be counted....do you really think that u deserve a slice of this cake? Where is your honour as a human being? How honest are you really? and finally what about respect for others and self respect?

Thank you for your observation light.<P>I am not taking advantage of anyone. I have admitted to sitting-on-the-fence for awhile. Isn't that what betrayers do, Dr. Harvey tells us. <P>Why ... mainly because I was looking for change in my fiancee. Prior to that I was not looking for change, I was hoping for it but I didn't see it. Not for a long time .... and that is when I got involved with OW. <P>I am trying to stand by my responsibities now, am I too late, well I am getting that feeling.<P>Allen

Allen,<P>None of us can put ourselves entirely in your shoes during any of this ordeal...<P>I try to understand the role of the OW...<BR>and try as I may... I see her(OW) coming back into your life... whether by your good heartedness, or financial reasons/obligations, or desires of continuing the affair (by her or you). The bottom line is that she(OW) is <B>not</B> out of the picture.<P>With that bottom line... there is little that you can expect from Janette. You cannot satisfy her <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> with her knowing that the OW is within any proximity to you... the reasons the OW is there is of no consequences to Janette! Sure, you can stop <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busting</A> ... but there aren't going to be any deposits into her <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>.<P>I don't mean to sound pessimistic about you and Janette... but it doesn't look promising. You see and end and a closure between you and the OW... I don't see it (I can't see it)... and I don't know how Janette can either.<P>Again, the "distance issue" makes it hard to make verifiable <B>your</B> desire of the separation from the OW. I don't know how you can "demonstrate" this... I just don't know.<P>Perhaps when the house is sold...<BR>Perhaps after the house... on an extended visit...<BR>Perhaps after <B>time</B> with Janette... here in the states...<BR>It can come together.<P>We are all held captive at times to the mistakes of the past (I with my W)... (You in the house purchase with the OW)... All can result in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> unforgiven...<P>Can the past be surmounted... I hope...<BR>I hope for me, for you, for Janette, for everyone here at MB.<P>I mentioned that I am the normal "welcome wagoneer" here... In my normal reply... I say..."We can't gauarantee saving every relationship"!<P>Mine may not be saved...<BR>Your's may not be saved either...<P>We can pray... I do... and will for you too... and of course for Janette too.<BR>I am disheartened by some of the disparaging remarks... we never know the exact situation of anyone who posts here... please know I care.<P>Jim