This the second time I've tried this. Hopefully someone will lend an ear. After 23 years of a wonderful marriage my wife decided she didn't love me. This came after coaxing from people in a self help org. (n/a)
<br>We were co-dependent for years but we have both been clean for over 3 years. We made plans for the future for ourselves and our three children. Then her sponsor and others convinced her that she couldn't stay married to someone she was co-dependent with. I have no doubt that she is confused and that if given the chance she would come back to me. I know she hasn't seen anyone else. I can't seem to convince her to go to a marriage counselor in an effort to try to save our marriage. I have asked her if she wants a divorce, she says no. Can anyone help?
<br>John

John,
<p>Have you read Dr. Harley's article on co-dependency? It is really good at showing that a good marriage will have some co-dependency in it. If not then it is not much of a marriage. I highly recommend it.
<br>Steph

Steph,
<br>Sorry I didn't thank you for your response until now. As I said, my wife is confused and being led to believe that she can't stay married to someone she used drugs with. We have both been clean for 3+ years, but she has a sponsor that has made her believe that no one matters except her, not me, not our children, not our marriage. I have given her the space she says she needs, she left us over a year ago, and she says she doesn't want a divorce, and she assures me that she isn't interested in anyone else. She regularly comes to me for support in the way of hugs and consolation, but we havn't had sexual relations in more that 3 years. I went to prison for 16 months before becoming clean and the problems started when she became involved in n/a and her sponsor. I am at a loss as to how to convince her to go to counseling. When I try to talk to her about these issues, she listens, she gets mad and she runs away. I love this woman more than anything and until she became involved in the program we were best friends, lovers, and we had a great family unit. Now she has our youngest, and the two older ones are with me and they are angry with her. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
<p>Thanx, john_98

John,
<p>I feel for your situation. I know of another couple with similar circumstances, only the final straw was an affair. Please don't let that scare you, just think about it.
<p>Have you had any therapy? I started recovery about nine years ago, and that was what truly marked the beginning of establishing a healthier lifestyle.
<p>I think in the case of many people who begin recovery, it hurts -- and one of the reasons I've found is because it forced me to look at the REAL reason behind my "insanity", depression, addictions, tendencies, etc., which led to facing and dealing with the VERY difficult trek up the mountain toward correcting what was wrong in my life, and where it existed in me. Which, if you'll notice, was often an "about-face" to what I was accustomed to doing.
<p>I think perspective, how your wife sees you, is one of the reasons she may be "thinking" she no longer loves you. I mean, you even said "...convinced her that she couldn't stay married to someone she was co-dependent with.
<p>I think that's the way she still views you. As a person she was co-dependent with. My husband and I have had similar issues and I think it's due in part to how we saw each other.
<p>Now, just because you stopped the drugs doesn't mean the co-dependency patterns stop too. Those will stay until you decide to make them go away. It's a lot of hard work and can go deeper than you might imagine. Like opening up a can of worms inside a can of worms! =)
<p>I am not sold on the idea of leaving a marriage JUST because of a past that involves a lot of mental trauma. I think marriages should be built to last forever, if that's possible, and if two people have the commitment it takes in order to accomplish that.
<p>There are ups and downs in EVERY relationship. There were times when I thought I didn't love MY husband either John! But I'm re-learning, or maybe just learning for the first time, what commitment really means.
<p>Your wife is also an individual human being. You aren't joined at the hip. Your love for her may really show through if you can ALLOW this to "low" to give YOU the intended messages... that's where you'll find which direction to go.
<p>Share your feelings with her. Be honest about it. I'll bet you'll both discover how honesty (without judging each other) will show you both that you're not all that dissimilar to each other.
<p>Good luck and *huggz*
<p>Kimberley

Dear Kimberly,
<br>Thank you for your insight. Sadly, much of what you say has merit. Although many feel as though recovery has to an ongoing process, I don't, but I understand that for many it is. I went through a program that helped me discover my core issues(that which made use drugs in the first) come to terms with them, face my fears and get on with my life. I also understand that right now my wife needs her 12 step program to stay clean. But for this program to teach that marriage, family and commitment to someone else is secondary is almost as destructive as using drugs. Now, I am suffering, our boys are suffering, and all at he behest of people that daily relive their inefficiencies and doubt their ability to stay drug free. While I was away(in prison) We made promises to each, as we did when we married, we made plans for our families future and since finding her SPONSOR she has come to believe these people that she has known less than 2 years. She won't go to counseling, she won't talk to either me or our boys about it, and they are angry at their Mom for what she is doing. Since I have cleaned up, I have worked hard, stopped all the lying, stealing, gambling, etc., and for what? Do you see how all this can build resentment. I made a commitment for life when I married my wife. And at the time so did she. She was a very devout Catholic and had very high morals. She stuck by me when things were bad and now that things can be great she runs away. And I have to believe that it's the program. Anyone who has been in a 12 step program will have to admit that it can be very controlling. Her program seems to have taken away everything that was good about her. She devotes more effort to her program than she does in trying to save her marriage. She insists that she isn't interested in anyone else, and I think I would know, we live in a small town and I see her everyday. She often comes to me for comfort, for hugs and an occasional kiss when she is depressed, but it never goes any farther. We have had no sexual relations for 3 years. i don't know how long I can go on, but I do know this, I love this woman still, because I know that the woman I fell in love is still in there. Thank you again.
<p>Much love.
<p>john_98 AKA JCWELL@thegrid.net

John,
<p>It looks to me as though she's doing something for HER for the first time in a long time. Maybe ever?
<p>If she was raised Catholic in the same way I was "raised Catholic", that may ALSO require some time to heal.
<p>John, it looks to me as if she may just need time to sort out her feelings. It may SEEM to her that she doesn't love you anymore, and it's possible that she is misunderstanding her feelings altogether. If that's the case, then it's possible that she's misinterpreting resentment and shame to a lack of love for you, and since she doesn't understand it and wants to give it a label, she's calling it a loss of love for you. To me, that doesn't make sense. So my guess is that the loss of love is not entirely accurate.
<p>I have no idea what the details of your lives are, but the important thing that I try to remember is how the healing and growth that comes from self-discovery will also, eventually, become a way to heal and grow the marriage. Cause and effect.
<p>Another thing I wanted to point out is that everyone has a timeline all their own. What may seem like a day to one person is an eternity to the next. Patience is the key.
<br>Just because your wife is in a place right now that isn't very comfortable for you doesn't mean it's going to stay this way forever. But if she's in recovery of some kind, where she is right now is exactly where SHE needs to be (as opposed to where YOU would LIKE her to be). It would be nice to be able to hurry along the healing and discovery process, but the fact is still that it occurs when it's time. In other words, the teacher will come when the student is ready. It all has it's place John.
<p>This stuff is not simple. The best tool I've found in healing and self-help is in the Serenity Prayer. If you went through a 12-Step program, you know the prayer.
<p>Once I was able to correctly identify what I had control over and more importantly, what I didn't, I was able to get a better handle on the issues I HAD control over which gave me the ability to steer or be led by God in the direction I needed to go.
<p>The other tool that has been instrumental in my own growth, healing and understanding is acceptance. I can't say what your wife is doing is unacceptable behavior. It sounds like she's really searching for answers, but she may be blaming you for where she is -- and she's reinforcing that belief by saying she no longer loves you.
<p>Some of my most healing experiences and enlightenments have come in the form of a path I took that really made no "brain sense". It was a gut instinct or a nudge from God that took me there, and it was for a definite reason. My life was a mess and picking ANY door was just about as good as anything else I could have done. It didn't seem to matter because I had such a lack of understanding of what really caused my problems.
<p>Once I started discovering a few things, it actually restored my faith and hope that good CAN result from experiences that SEEM bad, but I have to be open enough to receive whatever message it is that's there to get. And not only did I get the messages, I think MOST of them (finally!), I was able to do the RIGHT thing, thus, demonstrating the ABILITY to accept responsibility for my life and my happiness, AND it was a benchmarking opportunity to make myself a better role-model for my kids AND my husband.
<p>Once I went down the "wrong path" a few times in order to find the good inside the bad (e.g., make bad choices only to find out I should have KNOWN they were bad choices! =) I stopped having the NEED to live my life by experiencing right and wrong just to "know" the difference between the two.
<p>I don't know if this helps, but I thought I'd at least give it a shot.
<p>Kimberley

Kimberly,
<p>Thanks for your response. I think you have basically hit a few nails on the head. A few things I have discovered are that I have a lot more patience than I would ever have had, and that instead of becoming angry at her, I just feel pain, and it's not very nice. But as with anything, patience can only last so long and as long as she is getting reinforcement from her sponsor and others in the program she will continue to hold on to whatever is driving her.
<p>Eventually, I will have to do something to keep my own sanity. I have told her several times that I'm going to file divorce papers and give her what she wants, but she insists that isn't what she wants.
<p>In the meantime I continue to struggle with my emotions and don't really have anywhere to turn. My middle son often asks me what's wrong when I'm depressed and it would be easy to lash out at his Mom, but so far I've been able to keep those feelings to myself.
<p>In the meantime, I guess if I can continue to talk about my feelings in other ways such as this, I can give her the time she needs.
<p>But it's as though her morals and values have taken a back seat to her program. Incidently, I didn't go through a 12 step program although I did study it and it's steps and traditions, but I managed to find away to become well and stay clean in a different sort of program. I don't have to focus on staying clean because I made a conscious decision to never do the self-destructive things that nearly ended my life, and now I can move on.
<p>But having said that, I am once again in turmoil with what my wife is doing to all of us. And what really amazes me is that she gets upset about things that should be secondary to what's happening to our marriage. It's though she feels no pain, no anquish about the once perfect marriage, now falling apart.
<p>Perfect, by the way, was a desciption we both used at one time.
<p>I really want to thank you for communicating your feelings and observations. It does help. I hope all is well with your relationship and that happiness is always yours.
<p>Sincerely,
<br>john

Hiya John,
<p>Ok, are you giving her ultimatums without realizing it?
<p>That's the first thought that occurred to me when you said: "I have told her several times that I'm going to file divorce papers and give her what she wants, but she insists that isn't what she wants."
<p>Maybe you're testing the water, and maybe you're trying to control the direction she's going. Maybe you honestly have an interest in her path, but only if it leads back to you? Maybe it's a little of all?
<p>That's not a huge issue for me John, don't get me wrong, it's just that it doesn't LOOK as if you're being patient, because if you were, you may be more understanding that where she is has a good reason. Ok, let me rephrase that; I'm sure you're being as patient as you can be.
<p>I know it may seem like she's going off in a different direction, and growing AWAY from the marriage, but what it really looks like on my end is a possible fear of change for you?
<p>It is SO HARD when one is in recovery, and the other is waiting on the "outside" wondering when the other shoe is going to drop. You have no real idea what's being said by the sponsor, other than that it's something leading her away from you.
<p>That would evoke fear in many people! It's a natural response!
<p>Don't know what kind of people she's dealing with, but in the 12-Step programs I know of, they didn't teach me to believe my husband was the "cause" for my issues. They helped me to understand why it was that I allowed myself to get into an abusive relationship, and why I hooked up with a man who drank and smoked pot heavily, but not once did the idea get into my head that I should leave the marriage.
<p>In my recovery John... I've learned to be accountable for my life. I've learned to accept the responsibility of what I do, and accept responsibility for the consequences of what I do. If my actions set something in motion in the relationship I'm in, especially if those actions are wrong, deceitful, immoral or otherwise unacceptable, then the result may just be that the person leaves me. But that's where a line is drawn and where I no longer have any control.
<p>I'm not suggesting this is the case for you, and what's happening is BECAUSE of you or what happened in the past. I'm sure it's a part of it. All I'm trying to get across is how I was able to find peace, INNER peace, when it came to living with the decisions (even if they affected me in a profound way) that other people made... especially the unpopular decisions.
<p>I had to learn to accept the fact that people just do what they need to do BECAUSE it's what THEY feel they need.
<p>In my husband's case John... he was a chronic abuser of pot. He still to this day drinks, not too heavily, but it's enough to indicate there's probably a problem.
<p>He felt his pot helped motivate him somehow. I knew it was wrong, it was illegal, and not something I wanted to expose my kids to. But that's where MY co-dependency began! I NEEDED that personality type to fulfill MY need in the dysfunctional system. The irony is that I tried so desperately to change him... to "make him see" the error of his ways and how he was HARMING MY SANITY -- causing problems for the marriage -- by continuing to abuse drugs!
<p>Boy, was I ever wrong!
<p>I finally figured out that he would learn on his own time. I learned that my struggle was really not about correcting him, it was the struggle itself. Without that struggle, I wasn't comfortable.
<p>I think we have the tendency to re-create what's comfortable to us. No matter how much it doesn't make sense. It's what we know.
<p>I believe that one of the best things to offer in a marriage, or in any relationship for that matter, is the offering of honesty and the ability to trust that what's happening really does have a purpose.
<p>When we are able to give the same things we want to receive, I think it's the kind of this that eventually comes back to us. In other words, what goes around, comes around. I think it's also true for any negative that we put out. And for the same reason.
<p>Sometimes I seem to have so many problems John that (as my counselor described) it was like carrying around a bunch of bowling balls. The load was way too heavy for me, so I was better off deciding what REALLY had importance and just let go of the rest. For awhile. And if you'll notice... if you can relate this to other things that has happened in your life, some things just seem to work out with little or no effort on our part! That's one of the beauties of how life works.
<p>John, you really do sound good and you sound like you're committed to doing whatever it takes to make progress. Try to remember that if you really don't want a divorce, be careful what you wish for (or threaten) because it just may come true.
<p>Unless, of course, it's what you really want? I doubt it though. I just don't see how the ending of a marriage is any way to "solve" issues. Maybe when all else has been exhausted, but even then it may not be what you want or what's best.
<p>Marriages have their ups and downs. It's the demonstration of our ability to (especially while we're in a "downslope") stay committed, honest and together that brings us closer to solidarity with each other. It's not easy to do when times are tough. But it's the only way I know to stay together and focused, and it's a way to build trust in one another, just to know they aren't gonna bail out at the next sign that spells trouble.
<p>Well, I've probably gone WAY over 1,000 characters... better let you read! =)
<p>Thinking of you John... and I'll keep your family in my prayers!
<p>Love, Kimberley

Dear Kimberly,
<p>Once again I must thank you for your thoughts and insight. For the most part what you say is right on. As far as what the people in the program tell her, our own children have gone to meetings in the past and have heard it themselves, they have also heard her sponsor and a certain few relatives tell her that she can't stay married to me if she wants to stay clean. Bear in mind I don't say these things out of anger, but more out of confusion, because this is coming from people that don't know me as a person, and really don't Kathleen (my wife).
<p>I'm not sure if I've said it before, but I am extremely grateful that she is clean, but I just don't see the justification for all she is doing to not just me, but to our entire family.
<p>As far threatening a divorce, I don't believe I actually did that, but maybe subconciously that was my intention. I think, rather, I was testing the waters to see where she stood in that regard.
<p>It's funny that I came in and read this from you, because she just left after having dinner, which I enjoyed, but sadly, I am again alone. And watching her leave hurts almost as bad as seeing her arrive feels good. We actually managed to laugh some.
<p>She does come to my home everyday since my second surgery for a shoulder injury. Since that surgery she has come to help with meals, laundry, and such, but occasionally I can't help but wonder if she would do these things because she wanted to.
<p>I think my patience will be a little stronger now. Maybe just getting some insight from people who seem to care, like you, can in turn give me some insight. In some ways I guess I'm paying for some of my past, shall we say indescretions, and I can accept that. Afterall we get what we give. But I can honestly say that the things I did in the past weren't nice and they certainly weren't legal, but I never hurt anyone , except of course my family. Thankfully, I seemed to have made ammends to those that love me, my boys included, and had made plans with Kathleen for all of our futures.
<p>I realize that Kathleen still has many demons that she can't or won't confront, and it's hard for me to watch her as she continues down the path of meetings and relationships(her sponsor and people she hasn't known for that long)with people that can't conquer their own insecurities.
<p>I find great solice in the fact that I never will use again. I know and believe that the issues that I couldn't or didn't want to deal with in the past are gone now and any new pressures or lifes' little roadblocks that may happen I can deal with, without medicating myself. I only wish the same for Kathleen, because I believe that until she can do this she is worried that she will relapse, and with people telling her and themselves that it can happen it probably will.
<p>In this life we all have guides(those spirits for lack of a better word) that lead us all through this physical world, and we all have teachers that help us to learn the lessons we all need to learn. Just as we all make our own chaos, we too can make the good things prevail.
<p>You, Kimberely, sound like a marvalous person, and although I don't really know you, I would certainly like to. And I would hope that I can call you my friend.
<p>You have told me some about yourself, not much, but it seems to me you have had to conquer some of your own trials. If I can ever give you some of my insight, please feel free to ask. And if you have anymore wisdom to impart, please do.
<p>With admiration and gratitude,
<p>John_98 JCWELL@thegrid.net

Gosh John... how much do I owe you for all the ego strokes?
<p>I'm just an ordinary person. My husband says I can get a little too "certain" with my opinions, but I'm definitely NOT opinionated and unreasonable! Too much change in my life for that. =)
<p>I agree with your thinking on how we are led through life. And I agree we attract or are attracted to a certain kind of lifestyle. I don't know why I believe that... faith, I guess, is the best way I know to describe it. And trust that God, the way I perceive Him, is there for me at ALL times whether I know it or not.
<p>You bet we can be friends. I'm happy I could help!
<p>Love, Kimberley

Oh, BTW... I had to mention that I sympathize with your shoulder injury. I've had two surgeries on my right shoulder for a rotator cuff injury, and had my ac joint removed.
<p>Was assured it would grow back, and it did.
<p>*ouch* =)
<p>kimberley@kimberley.com

John, I just happened to come across this site. You may want to check out under Other Toics - My Wife's Not Sure She Wants To Be Married II. There are an awful lot of couples going through what you are both going through. Some of us married for a short time, others longer, some with kids and some without. By talking, and hearing what it's like from both sides of the fence, we are trying to find answers for the situations are marriages are in.
<br>Take a look; and I hope that you find some answers, and that things work out for you.